I wrote a piece for Wired.com about the switch to HotS in the professional scene, and what it means for players. Particularly lower level foreigners and Western teams.
-I am not saying Mvp and Symbol are suddenly going to be out of a job after HotS. It's more about the fringe-players who very well could lose their place if their play slips a tiny bit. As well as the Ro32 Code S/Top Code A players who might now be able to knock off more established WoL players.
-Lots of people saying "This is nonsense, 80% of the players will be the same." Yes, I know. This is about the other 20%.
-This is for a general interest publication, and Wired.com readers aren't going to know much about eSports or SC2. So if there's a little sensationalism in there, I apologize, but I think it's for the good of getting people hooked on eSports with a strong narrative.
EDIT: Apologies for not quoting the piece. And I've been told in the past that article links aren't classified as advertisements. It's just something I thought the community would be interested in.
Here's an excerpt:
For e-sports players, it can be something analogous to what Tiger Woods would have to deal with if the PGA suddenly decided that all the fairways on their golf courses were too long. Golfers who had gained an advantage in the past by having a long drive would lose that edge, and players with great putting and chipping skills would gain the upper hand.
That would likely never happen in golf, but for pro gamers it happens all the time. The courses they play on do change, and they’ll have to learn to use new types of clubs. Not everyone will be able to adapt.
“We make our money solely off of how successful we are and how much attention we get,” said Evil Geniuses captain Robinson. “If something challenges either, or both in this case, because of change or the need for adaptation then we are very afraid.”
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
Yeh, some are trying to get an edge early at the game. But imo in like 6 months, those with worse mechanics will weed back out. And Koreans will dominate harder then ever before. We just need a Foreigner only league to sustain the foreign scene (like GSL or OSL) or even a proleague like format. Not that it needs to be implemented ASAP but around LOTV, else SC2 will get the same fate as BW.
Btw i see the same happening in LoL where you also can already see Koreans starting to dominate.
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
Isn't that the definition of irony ?
Well, he did change his job description to that of a more supportive/background role. But the only he will be able to do that is if he maintains as high a level of skill as he can in order for his help/guidance to be effective. One doesn't need to win a GSL to know how to talk about the game--heck, winning an MLG (as of now) is a highly impressive feat for a non-Korean. Geoff is doing fine, I would consider him a successful pro-gamer.
I don't think HOTS will kill careers i think players kill careers. The New expansion injects new life in the game. For awhile people will log on to play, people will watch streams its new excitement. But eventually you get pushed out of the game weather you are sick of it, or realize you reached your peak and its time to do something else. Happens in all sports. Its not a big deal, its nothing to be sad about. As long as the community shows up players will play.
Hahaha, so Root domination inc guys, you heard it. Expect CatZ to and Minigun to dominate HotS with their innovative strategies.
It's as if IEM wasn't enough to show that all these beta heros who tried to get an edge by switching early and adapting are already being eclipsed by people with better fundamentals who have barely played HotS.
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
I wouldn't really say they would be extinct, more eclipsed like always. Koreans will always have superior mechanics, decision-making and strategies, but that never put foreigners out of business, even those who never could take a series off a Korean. The way I see it, HotS will be a temporary equalizer for foreigners, but eventually, a good deal of Koreans will be able to defeat the best foreigners can field.
Top Foreigners like Stephano, Scarlett, Thorzain, Ret (in HotS), will still be around. But, Koreans will dominate harder than in WoL most likely. Especially with 7 Kespa teams in the pool now.
It's really nice that for now the gap between third rate players and top end gosus seem to have widened hugely. No more of this "Xlord 5-0 Code S Terrans" nonsense :D
On March 13 2013 04:23 Canucklehead wrote: Like artosis said on sotg before, it will mean the end to some patch zergs.
If that Flash vs Life game is any indication on the multi tasking and skill required for Zerg in HOTS I weep for foreigners
cannot wait.
Same. I've watched a ton of WoL and that single game, on launch day of HOTS, was still one of the most exciting games of SC2 I've seen.
Same. I have no doubt that flash vs life at the launch event will be listed as one of the best games of 2013 at the end of the year.
Unless now that is just run of the mill TvZ in HOTS, Which I can only pray is true
Granted it was two of the best players for their respected races
Its also awesome to see because players like Flash are so good at pushing the limits of what an unit or group of units can do. I remember when people asked him about SC2 and how he liked playing it, he said he liked how responsive all the units were and wanted to see what he could do with them. I love that mentality that the units don’t limit him and he will bring them to their full potential. It is really refreshing for the community that really loves to crap on the game an claim it limits them.
The community thinks: Blizzard needs to break up the death ball.
The community thinks: Blizzard needs to break up the death ball.
Flash thinks: I will break the death ball.
This is my favorite. Also thanks to ROFLOLLER for the VoD link. Really looking forward to watching that. Flash is the best player on the planet when he's playing against the second best player on the planet. His play skyrockets in crunch time.
I think the idea that this is a time for fringe players, particularly foreigners, to gain an upper-hand is wishful thinking. The same systems and mechanisms that put Koreans at the top are still there, and will continue to be there. While there might be a couple months were it is a free-for-all as new cheeses are discovered, safer builds are found, and what "standard" play is becomes established (we won't even think about maps..), soon rather than later, the Koreans will be back in dominance.
The infrastructure has to change for foreigners to have a chance, not the game.
It's a well written article, but I disagree with some of the points. For one, no, ROOT gaming will not have a ghost of a chance with their current lineup. Or any foreign team for that matter.
I believe HotS will be even harder to predict than WoL. Players come and go, champions come and go. MVP won 4 times out of 20. That's good, but not impressive (on paper), especially when you've seen the dominant year(s) of oov, savior and flash. I wouldn't put my money on anyone. Certainly not on symbol, nestea, etc.
On March 13 2013 22:10 GrapeApe wrote: The Tiger Woods/PGA comparison was a terrible one :\
Can you offer a better comparsion? Seemed reasonable to me. Professional sports is consistent because the rules change very infrequently. In WoL, we saw players fall and rise on the patch changes.
Also, Blizzard makes me sad because of this. Giving pros more of a heads up on patches would have made this mass patching system at least bearable ~_~
On March 13 2013 07:11 monkybone wrote: Some abilities were rewarded too much in WoL, like controlling a BL infestor army decently. People were in uproar for a year about the infestor and its role. Yes, Zergs using infestors well were rewarded for that, but it's not the game people wanted. Golf is not all about who smacks the ball the farthest, just as sc2 should not just be about "beautiful fungals".
It's actually not the players privilege to retain their success based on what should have been niche skills, but due to balanced turned out to be a major factor. They will have to evolve together with the game as it evolves based on the decisions of blizzard.
I have no sympathy for the players who had their crutches taken away. Only those who can walk will have continued success in this new expansion.
Perhaps, but then again SC1 was the same way. Tank placement is a "niche skill" too, yet most Terran matchups revolved around it. If you couldn't put your STs in the right place, you lost.
It seems more a question of whether you like the "niche skill." Whether it creates good and interesting play dynamics.
I thought that it was pretty common sense that games phase in and out, and change with time. Obviously with change will bring some people up and some people down. The base mechanics of Heart of the Swarm are so similar to Wings of Liberty that there shouldn't be too big of a shift in who is dominant and who isn't. At the start things will be all over the place as pros have had varying exposure to the expansion, but as months pass things should start to look more and more normal.
Article: Composed mainly of North American players, ROOT Gaming has never been able to compete consistently against the top South Korean players that dominate the sport. But Heart of the Swarm could be an opportunity for smaller teams to make a move up the totem pole.
Anybody willing to bet on Root? I will give good odds.
On March 13 2013 22:46 KingofGods wrote: Why would EG get rid of Incontrol? Look how long LzGamer and Machine stayed on the roster and Incontrol does much more for EG than those other two.
Agreed. Regardless of results, he is the front man that a lot of teams wished they had. He has a dynamic personality that draws viewers an interest to any event or show he is involved with. Much like Artosis, Incontrol is one of those people that just makes you pumped to watch SC2.
I don't think its Korean mechanics that separate them from the top tier foreigners. The difference is that MOST(if not all) koreans have top level mechanics and an intuitive grasp of mechanics. But I think that a lot of their domination depends on their decision making and positioning.
I think there are a fair number of foreigners who have strong mechanics and very good micro like stephano, scarlett, thorzain, naniwa, vibe (BUT HE"S NA LOLROFLOMGHAXORZ, I'm talking about his mechanics and microing abilities, which are extremely good, vibe just makes a lot of dumb decisions in his games that cause him to fall behind, like he made hydras in a WOL tourney game thinking he had done more damage to a toss than he had and threw away a huge lead.that's the kinda stuff that keeps him behind in MLG's, but when's he's on he will take series now and then off koreans)
But Korean's practice regimen is more structured and rigid, more like a typical career or profession where for many foreigners its more self-motivated. As such koreans get exposed to (from their practice partners, coaches, and ladder) a wider array of scenarios, and they are more prepared for a them, knowing what works and what doesn't work for hundreds of cases. The baseline skill level, fundamentals and micro/macro alone isn't the largest gap that sits between top tier foreigners and koreans, its they are just so much more prepared for each match than foreigners are. (at least most of the time. Unless you are MKP losing to Trimaster in MLG last year 2-0. lol)
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
On March 13 2013 23:14 EngrishTeacher wrote: I find it highly amusing that it's Incontrol of all people who's talking about staying competitive and relevant in the scene.
Other than that, a nice read for the general audience..
Like Artosis, who couldn’t qualify for code A, but is still more relevant that may professional players? I find it amusing that most people think Incontrol isn’t qualified to talk about staying competitive, since he has been a competitive weight lifter and football player before his time in SC2.
Article: Composed mainly of North American players, ROOT Gaming has never been able to compete consistently against the top South Korean players that dominate the sport. But Heart of the Swarm could be an opportunity for smaller teams to make a move up the totem pole.
On March 13 2013 21:41 shadymmj wrote: It's a well written article, but I disagree with some of the points. For one, no, ROOT gaming will not have a ghost of a chance with their current lineup. Or any foreign team for that matter.
Root did beat FXO in the IPTL, people seem to forget this. That's FXO the GSTL champion team. Sage played like an absolute BEAST and he continues to impress. Also Leiya and Yugioh played very well, especially Yugioh beating leenock.
So yea they (probably ) aren't gonna win the GSTL or any team league with Korean teams, but they aren't going to be rolfstomped either.
People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene, in either Dota or SC2 and only point out failings. people need to relax and just enjoy e-sports on a whole instead of hating on foreigners/koreans
Article: Composed mainly of North American players, ROOT Gaming has never been able to compete consistently against the top South Korean players that dominate the sport. But Heart of the Swarm could be an opportunity for smaller teams to make a move up the totem pole.
On March 13 2013 21:41 shadymmj wrote: It's a well written article, but I disagree with some of the points. For one, no, ROOT gaming will not have a ghost of a chance with their current lineup. Or any foreign team for that matter.
Root did beat FXO in the IPTL, people seem to forget this. That's FXO the GSTL champion team. Sage played like an absolute BEAST and he continues to impress. Also Leiya and Yugioh played very well, especially Yugioh beating leenock.
So yea they (probably ) aren't gonna win the GSTL or any team league with Korean teams, but they aren't going to be rolfstomped either.
People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene, in either Dota or SC2 and only point out failings. people need to relax and just enjoy e-sports on a whole instead of hating on foreigners/koreans
Hating on NA/EU is a problem that in unique to SC2 and I would almost say that it is most prevalent on TL. LoL has none of these problems, even though the Korean and Chinese teams are arguably more skilled that NA/EU ones. I see way less of it in Dota2 as well. Really, the community puts a lot of burden for NA/EU players to beat Korean players, rather than compete against each other, which sets the bar at a slightly unrealistic level. It is a problem we create for ourselves, but we do keep hearing that folks like MLG and NASL are working on ways to grown the NA/EU scene
On March 13 2013 05:12 ZenithM wrote: It's really nice that for now the gap between third rate players and top end gosus seem to have widened hugely. No more of this "Xlord 5-0 Code S Terrans" nonsense :D
I can't help but agree. I'm hopeful that (if blizzard ignores the whiners and newbies and leaves skill-ceiling increasing abilities like ignite afterburners alone) we won't have this XlorD, vortix, etc problem in HoTS. Naniwa, nerchio, Kas, Ret etc will still all be good but hopefully these 1 month heroes will disappear.
This argument doesn't make sense to me. Do they want to have an improved and better game to play? Do they want a game that is more fun and challenging to compete in? I mean if HotS can provide a better game then their complaint is if the game never changed then we could always be the best players but now it sucks because someone might get better now that there are more diverse strategies. This whole thing is beyond me. People don't think about what they are saying. Why complain and get this kind of attention? Either improve with the metagame and prove that you are great at RTS or don't. They can also continue to compete in WOL if they want to stay as the best.
On March 13 2013 05:12 ZenithM wrote: It's really nice that for now the gap between third rate players and top end gosus seem to have widened hugely. No more of this "Xlord 5-0 Code S Terrans" nonsense :D
I can't help but agree. I'm hopeful that (if blizzard ignores the whiners and newbies and leaves skill-ceiling increasing abilities like ignite afterburners alone) we won't have this XlorD, vortix, etc problem in HoTS. Naniwa, nerchio, Kas, Ret etc will still all be good but hopefully these 1 month heroes will disappear.
Vortix is actually really good. Not in the same category as other patch zergs such as xlord.
As for this article- yes foreigners are fucked. HotS is going to separate the players so much. In a year we will see Kespa players (plus ~5 esf players) >>>>>>>> esf players (plus ~5 foreigners) >>>>>> foreigners.
The level of play is about to shoot throug the roof because of players like Flash, Life, Rain, Innovation, Fantasy, etc
Article: Composed mainly of North American players, ROOT Gaming has never been able to compete consistently against the top South Korean players that dominate the sport. But Heart of the Swarm could be an opportunity for smaller teams to make a move up the totem pole.
On March 13 2013 21:41 shadymmj wrote: It's a well written article, but I disagree with some of the points. For one, no, ROOT gaming will not have a ghost of a chance with their current lineup. Or any foreign team for that matter.
Root did beat FXO in the IPTL, people seem to forget this. That's FXO the GSTL champion team. Sage played like an absolute BEAST and he continues to impress. Also Leiya and Yugioh played very well, especially Yugioh beating leenock.
So yea they (probably ) aren't gonna win the GSTL or any team league with Korean teams, but they aren't going to be rolfstomped either.
People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene, in either Dota or SC2 and only point out failings. people need to relax and just enjoy e-sports on a whole instead of hating on foreigners/koreans
Hating on NA/EU is a problem that in unique to SC2 and I would almost say that it is most prevalent on TL. LoL has none of these problems, even though the Korean and Chinese teams are arguably more skilled that NA/EU ones. I see way less of it in Dota2 as well. Really, the community puts a lot of burden for NA/EU players to beat Korean players, rather than compete against each other, which sets the bar at a slightly unrealistic level. It is a problem we create for ourselves, but we do keep hearing that folks like MLG and NASL are working on ways to grown the NA/EU scene
This was the case with Broodwar as well. NA was separated into USWest and USEast. USEast (my region) was particularly hated and ridiculed for the relative lack of skill, abundant hacking and flagrant BM. Channels like clan x17 are still notorious to this day.
yeah some ppl will suffer when game is new and the metagame is topsy turvy and parlor tricks are in full effect. most other people will like that and benefit off of that though. That's why people like fresh new games. Aside from being just a brand new experience, it upsets the status quo. I personally like a gameplay when it's simmered down a bit, but its nothing to complain about because other people will enjoy taking advantage of the situation. Just wait a bit or take a break from the scene.
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
Isn't that the definition of irony ?
it actually isn't
It is pretty funny when you hear it coming from him. How our definitions of pro players have changed.
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
Isn't that the definition of irony ?
it actually isn't
It is pretty funny when you hear it coming from him. How our definitions of pro players have changed.
Well he does a good job of making himself relevant regardless of tournament results. So no matter what the state of SC is he should always be fine if anybody.
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
Isn't that the definition of irony ?
it actually isn't
It is pretty funny when you hear it coming from him. How our definitions of pro players have changed.
Will he ever win a GSL? No.
Neither will Stephano. Would you consider Stephano not a pro?
We make our money solely off of how successful we are and how much attention we get,” said Evil Geniuses captain Robinson
So since incontrol had, has, and will have no chance to be remotely successful in sctarcraft, his best chance at making money is by getting attention. I feel sad for him but hey, whatever puts food on the table, especially now that he is starting a family and it would be unfortunate to see people like him starve or something. Certainly the skill gap that HOTS will force on high-level players and random journeymen like incontrol will have massive repercussions on their jobs.
“We make our money solely off of how successful we are and how much attention we get,” said Evil Geniuses captain Robinson. “If something challenges either, or both in this case, because of change or the need for adaptation then we are very afraid.”
[/i]
Well this is half right... the "how succesful we are" part is wrong. Being successful CAN lead to attention, but it is not always the case. The opposite is also true, some players have had no success at all, but still get some attention so they stay in the "pro-scene"... I'll let you guess the best example of it.. and you don't have to look very far!
The SC2 scene is still very rudimentary: Events give out prize money which are probably calculated as such : "Sponsor money - event expenses = prize money", and players' salary are the tournaments' money. Compare this to BW KESPA's model where salaries were predominant, and players mostly fought for the fame... you know, just like real Sport.
"B-but... k-kespa still has that model... no?" Well yes, because they are living off sponsor contracts from the BW era. Give it a year or so, and Starcraft Kespa will go broke because SC2 in Korea is irrelevant and do not have the audience of the BW era.
tldr ; SC2 model is like online poker, Kespa BW was like Sports.
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
Isn't that the definition of irony ?
it actually isn't
It is pretty funny when you hear it coming from him. How our definitions of pro players have changed.
Will he ever win a GSL? No.
Neither will Stephano. Would you consider Stephano not a pro?
But the point remains the same, the number of tournament victories you have is not what defines you as a pro player or not.
This is a terrible answer.. how can you compare one of the best , if not the best Foreigner, who won multiple events with koreans to a guy that constantly gets destroyed on the ladder by mid-high masters? You could say a PRO is about making a living off the game.. but don't talk about GSL please. Less than 10 people have won the GSL, and the runner-ups or other events' winners are not to be considered the same level as a High-Master, low GM skill level protoss player.
Article: Composed mainly of North American players, ROOT Gaming has never been able to compete consistently against the top South Korean players that dominate the sport. But Heart of the Swarm could be an opportunity for smaller teams to make a move up the totem pole.
On March 13 2013 21:41 shadymmj wrote: It's a well written article, but I disagree with some of the points. For one, no, ROOT gaming will not have a ghost of a chance with their current lineup. Or any foreign team for that matter.
Root did beat FXO in the IPTL, people seem to forget this. That's FXO the GSTL champion team. Sage played like an absolute BEAST and he continues to impress. Also Leiya and Yugioh played very well, especially Yugioh beating leenock.
So yea they (probably ) aren't gonna win the GSTL or any team league with Korean teams, but they aren't going to be rolfstomped either.
People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene, in either Dota or SC2 and only point out failings. people need to relax and just enjoy e-sports on a whole instead of hating on foreigners/koreans
Thing is, is that the ROOT Koreans did most of the work in that series, and the article pertains to foreigners. Even if a foreign team was held up by its Koreans, it still means the foreigners aren't too successful while the Koreans are continuing the trend of domination.
Article: Composed mainly of North American players, ROOT Gaming has never been able to compete consistently against the top South Korean players that dominate the sport. But Heart of the Swarm could be an opportunity for smaller teams to make a move up the totem pole.
On March 13 2013 21:41 shadymmj wrote: It's a well written article, but I disagree with some of the points. For one, no, ROOT gaming will not have a ghost of a chance with their current lineup. Or any foreign team for that matter.
Root did beat FXO in the IPTL, people seem to forget this. That's FXO the GSTL champion team. Sage played like an absolute BEAST and he continues to impress. Also Leiya and Yugioh played very well, especially Yugioh beating leenock.
So yea they (probably ) aren't gonna win the GSTL or any team league with Korean teams, but they aren't going to be rolfstomped either.
People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene, in either Dota or SC2 and only point out failings. people need to relax and just enjoy e-sports on a whole instead of hating on foreigners/koreans
Hating on NA/EU is a problem that in unique to SC2 and I would almost say that it is most prevalent on TL. LoL has none of these problems, even though the Korean and Chinese teams are arguably more skilled that NA/EU ones. I see way less of it in Dota2 as well. Really, the community puts a lot of burden for NA/EU players to beat Korean players, rather than compete against each other, which sets the bar at a slightly unrealistic level. It is a problem we create for ourselves, but we do keep hearing that folks like MLG and NASL are working on ways to grown the NA/EU scene
The skill gap between Koreans in LoL or Chinese in Dota 2 and those from NA/EU/elsewhere is arguably a lot less than the skill desparity between Koreans and NA/EU/elsewhere players in SC2, which is probably the reason why they aren't hated on as much in those communities. Just look at NaVi going so far in the international 2 or winning the first one and TA winning that big Riot invitational thingy and compare that to foreigner success in SC2, it's not even close.
On March 15 2013 01:55 nihlon wrote: Is this a thread about how nitpicky we can be about everything incontrol says or something?
The choice of having incontrol in that article is really a questionable choice, maybe just to make it sensational and controversial?
No, let's not go that far.
They chose him because he talks a lot in the community (want it or not, he is still relevant to the community.. just not to the actual game), and since he probably doesn't practice much, he probably had the time to answer, no?
On March 15 2013 01:55 nihlon wrote: Is this a thread about how nitpicky we can be about everything incontrol says or something?
The choice of having incontrol in that article is really a questionable choice, maybe just to make it sensational and controversial?
No, let's not go that far.
They chose him because he talks a lot in the community (want it or not, he is still relevant to the community.. just not to the actual game), and since he probably doesn't practice much, he probably had the time to answer, no?
The analogy with Tiger Woods and golf to professional players and SC2 is really poor.
SC2 changed dramatically since the release of the WOL until March 1st 2013. Many abilities were removed, new ones added, the map pool dramatically changed, the balance of units was adjusted. In fact, one could argue that HOTS is closer to WOL now, than WOL now is to WOL at release. Interestingly though, many of the elite players are the same... MVP, MKP, MC, Nestea... and this is because the ability to adapt and innovate is key in E-sports, and players who can do those things well are successful. I'm not sure if it is the same in Golf, and your article hints that it isn't.
SC2 is a fluid game that changes over time. New strategies and maps come and go, and different styles and skills develop. And that is why we see good players stick around for so long. Sure, their skill might diminish or improve over time, but people don't just fall off (in terms of their ability to innovate or adapt) when a patch/expansion comes out (tournament results might change due to balance changes, but that has to do with Blizzard, not player skill).
Then they arent pros!. Many foreigners WILL fall away into darkness and with that, the true skill will come forward. The amazing broodlord micro we have seen the past year will hopefully not be as effective and a result of this is quite obvious.
Article: Composed mainly of North American players, ROOT Gaming has never been able to compete consistently against the top South Korean players that dominate the sport. But Heart of the Swarm could be an opportunity for smaller teams to make a move up the totem pole.
On March 13 2013 21:41 shadymmj wrote: It's a well written article, but I disagree with some of the points. For one, no, ROOT gaming will not have a ghost of a chance with their current lineup. Or any foreign team for that matter.
Root did beat FXO in the IPTL, people seem to forget this. That's FXO the GSTL champion team. Sage played like an absolute BEAST and he continues to impress. Also Leiya and Yugioh played very well, especially Yugioh beating leenock.
So yea they (probably ) aren't gonna win the GSTL or any team league with Korean teams, but they aren't going to be rolfstomped either.
People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene, in either Dota or SC2 and only point out failings. people need to relax and just enjoy e-sports on a whole instead of hating on foreigners/koreans
Hating on NA/EU is a problem that in unique to SC2 and I would almost say that it is most prevalent on TL. LoL has none of these problems, even though the Korean and Chinese teams are arguably more skilled that NA/EU ones. I see way less of it in Dota2 as well. Really, the community puts a lot of burden for NA/EU players to beat Korean players, rather than compete against each other, which sets the bar at a slightly unrealistic level. It is a problem we create for ourselves, but we do keep hearing that folks like MLG and NASL are working on ways to grown the NA/EU scene
The skill gap between Koreans in LoL or Chinese in Dota 2 and those from NA/EU/elsewhere is arguably a lot less than the skill desparity between Koreans and NA/EU/elsewhere players in SC2, which is probably the reason why they aren't hated on as much in those communities. Just look at NaVi going so far in the international 2 or winning the first one and TA winning that big Riot invitational thingy and compare that to foreigner success in SC2, it's not even close.
Na'vi is more of an outlier more than anything, just like how Stephano for awhile was virtually the only person that could be semi-competitive against elite level Koreans. In DotA 2, the Asian dominance is still strong, just not as ridiculous as SC2 (7 out of the top 8 were Asian teams).
On March 13 2013 04:23 Canucklehead wrote: Like artosis said on sotg before, it will mean the end to some patch zergs.
If that Flash vs Life game is any indication on the multi tasking and skill required for Zerg in HOTS I weep for foreigners
I'm a foreigner but I never understand this stance. I want a game that rewards strong mechanics/multi-tasking no matter who that favors. It seems that Koreans have a better infrastructure for training as well as possessing most of the better players in a near vicinity and this is a definite advantage but as we've seen in the past can be accessed if an individual is willing to sacrifice.
On a positive note, I love the fast-paced games I've seen from HotS.
Article: Composed mainly of North American players, ROOT Gaming has never been able to compete consistently against the top South Korean players that dominate the sport. But Heart of the Swarm could be an opportunity for smaller teams to make a move up the totem pole.
On March 13 2013 21:41 shadymmj wrote: It's a well written article, but I disagree with some of the points. For one, no, ROOT gaming will not have a ghost of a chance with their current lineup. Or any foreign team for that matter.
Root did beat FXO in the IPTL, people seem to forget this. That's FXO the GSTL champion team. Sage played like an absolute BEAST and he continues to impress. Also Leiya and Yugioh played very well, especially Yugioh beating leenock.
So yea they (probably ) aren't gonna win the GSTL or any team league with Korean teams, but they aren't going to be rolfstomped either.
People have so much hate for the NA/EU scene, in either Dota or SC2 and only point out failings. people need to relax and just enjoy e-sports on a whole instead of hating on foreigners/koreans
Hating on NA/EU is a problem that in unique to SC2 and I would almost say that it is most prevalent on TL. LoL has none of these problems, even though the Korean and Chinese teams are arguably more skilled that NA/EU ones. I see way less of it in Dota2 as well. Really, the community puts a lot of burden for NA/EU players to beat Korean players, rather than compete against each other, which sets the bar at a slightly unrealistic level. It is a problem we create for ourselves, but we do keep hearing that folks like MLG and NASL are working on ways to grown the NA/EU scene
Nah, LoL community just hates on the asian side of things instead of EU/NA. That's why there is barely anyone watching their tournaments even though they are alot better at the game.
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
Isn't that the definition of irony ?
it actually isn't
It is pretty funny when you hear it coming from him. How our definitions of pro players have changed.
Will he ever win a GSL? No.
Neither will Stephano. Would you consider Stephano not a pro?
But the point remains the same, the number of tournament victories you have is not what defines you as a pro player or not.
This is a terrible answer.. how can you compare one of the best , if not the best Foreigner, who won multiple events with koreans to a guy that constantly gets destroyed on the ladder by mid-high masters? You could say a PRO is about making a living off the game.. but don't talk about GSL please. Less than 10 people have won the GSL, and the runner-ups or other events' winners are not to be considered the same level as a High-Master, low GM skill level protoss player.
Steve Jobs was a good marketing guy who did a bit of programming.
He did pretty good for being just a dude that talks to people. Sure, his programming did not revolutionize the industry--but he was smart enough to round the edges of his computers more than the other guys, and now he's a brand name.
Yeah... not a fan of this article. The pros who know they are good will be confident and see this as an opportunity to be the best through new strategies or more practice so they know the game better than everyone else.
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
Isn't that the definition of irony ?
it actually isn't
It is pretty funny when you hear it coming from him. How our definitions of pro players have changed.
Will he ever win a GSL? No.
Neither will Stephano. Would you consider Stephano not a pro?
But the point remains the same, the number of tournament victories you have is not what defines you as a pro player or not.
This is a terrible answer.. how can you compare one of the best , if not the best Foreigner, who won multiple events with koreans to a guy that constantly gets destroyed on the ladder by mid-high masters? You could say a PRO is about making a living off the game.. but don't talk about GSL please. Less than 10 people have won the GSL, and the runner-ups or other events' winners are not to be considered the same level as a High-Master, low GM skill level protoss player.
Steve Jobs was a good marketing guy who did a bit of programming.
He did pretty good for being just a dude that talks to people. Sure, his programming did not revolutionize the industry--but he was smart enough to round the edges of his computers more than the other guys, and now he's a brand name.
??
What does this have to do with anything that has been said so far? Incontrol is a SC2 community personality. He also plays the game, but so does MaximusBlack.... or Livinpink....or Artosis... He is not really a pro gamer.. the past 2 years have proved that even though he does participate, his role in the community is not to entertain us with his playstyle (other than laughing at his attempts).
And this is not to talk against him.. I think enough people have done it that I don't feel like it. His spot in this community is to be a "spokesman", and this is why he's in this article.
On March 13 2013 05:12 ZenithM wrote: It's really nice that for now the gap between third rate players and top end gosus seem to have widened hugely. No more of this "Xlord 5-0 Code S Terrans" nonsense :D
I can't help but agree. I'm hopeful that (if blizzard ignores the whiners and newbies and leaves skill-ceiling increasing abilities like ignite afterburners alone) we won't have this XlorD, vortix, etc problem in HoTS. Naniwa, nerchio, Kas, Ret etc will still all be good but hopefully these 1 month heroes will disappear.
Vortix is actually really good. Not in the same category as other patch zergs such as xlord.
As for this article- yes foreigners are fucked. HotS is going to separate the players so much. In a year we will see Kespa players (plus ~5 esf players) >>>>>>>> esf players (plus ~5 foreigners) >>>>>> foreigners.
The level of play is about to shoot throug the roof because of players like Flash, Life, Rain, Innovation, Fantasy, etc
Good enough to receive all his results in the couple of month period when Zerg was winning everything and nothing before or after that point, including even top 15 places on EU ladder. Xlord doesn't even really qualify as a patch Zerg because he just had one single lucky run where he beat one single good opponent in a ZvZ.... Vortix at least fulfills the mininum requirements to be considered a patchzerg (doing okay because of Zerg's position in the game, in contrast to having one tournament run ever because of zerg's low skillcap)
“Players live on borrowed time and they know it,” said pro player and commentator Geoff Robinson, captain of the StarCraft division of Evil Geniuses, in an e-mail.
Isn't that the definition of irony ?
it actually isn't
It is pretty funny when you hear it coming from him. How our definitions of pro players have changed.
Will he ever win a GSL? No.
Neither will Stephano. Would you consider Stephano not a pro?
But the point remains the same, the number of tournament victories you have is not what defines you as a pro player or not.
This is a terrible answer.. how can you compare one of the best , if not the best Foreigner, who won multiple events with koreans to a guy that constantly gets destroyed on the ladder by mid-high masters? You could say a PRO is about making a living off the game.. but don't talk about GSL please. Less than 10 people have won the GSL, and the runner-ups or other events' winners are not to be considered the same level as a High-Master, low GM skill level protoss player.
Steve Jobs was a good marketing guy who did a bit of programming.
He did pretty good for being just a dude that talks to people. Sure, his programming did not revolutionize the industry--but he was smart enough to round the edges of his computers more than the other guys, and now he's a brand name.
??
What does this have to do with anything that has been said so far? Incontrol is a SC2 community personality. He also plays the game, but so does MaximusBlack.... or Livinpink....or Artosis... He is not really a pro gamer.. the past 2 years have proved that even though he does participate, his role in the community is not to entertain us with his playstyle (other than laughing at his attempts).
And this is not to talk against him.. I think enough people have done it that I don't feel like it. His spot in this community is to be a "spokesman", and this is why he's in this article.
Steve Jobs started by building computers with his bare hands and having to figure out the nuts and bolts of what we today would call a desktop. He's not some bean counter in the back room counting the billions he made as apple skyrocketed.
He was a programmer first--businessman second. The problem was the he was a much more successful businessman than he was a programmer and so, in the end, he's known for having cool and hip products as opposed to Bill Gates who (once he made his billions) decided to spend his life fighting malaria.
Steve Jobs being a successful businessman does not make him a failure of a programmer. Incontrol not winning an MLG last year simply means that he's not Korean. That's it. Trying to suggest that he's some kind of failure and as someone who "doesn't count" as pro-gamer is ludicrous. He's a gaming professional in the gaming industry who posts results as good as the grand majority of pro-gamers our there.
The fact that fans only care about the top 4 players (or really just the top two players) of any given tournament does not trivialize incontrol's achievements. I'd never bet money on him--but I wouldn't bet money on the Cubs winning the world series either. If, in the end, he becomes more known for being a spokesperson than he does being a tournament force--that still would not detract from the fact that he does go to tournaments, he does train for them, and he does spend his time focusing on them. Saying it doesn't count simply because he didn't win anything last year puts him in the same boat as idra, as Major, as TLO, as Ret, etc...
Success is not all or nothing. Capitalism is all or nothing, a life's work is a struggle not a score count.
This is generally a good article and reasonably accurate for a "general interest" piece.
For e-sports players, it can be something analogous to what Tiger Woods would have to deal with if the PGA suddenly decided that all the fairways on their golf courses were too long. Golfers who had gained an advantage in the past by having a long drive would lose that edge, and players with great putting and chipping skills would gain the upper hand.
That would likely never happen in golf
Actually they alter golf courses all the time to increase the challenge for the pros, as well as having huge differences between courses, so this is a more apt comparison than you think. Along with the terrain, the conditions are highly variable in golf. Those who succeed are the ones with a well-rounded game, good fundamentals, and above all, a good mindset. Just like in pro starcraft.
I also found it interesting that big tough Incontrol talked the whole time about being "nervous" and "afraid" of change, while ROOT coach Amelia Savery is like, "we're not afraid of changes, we embrace them." Remind me which one can bench a small car?
On March 15 2013 09:10 Thieving Magpie wrote: Success is not all or nothing. Capitalism is all or nothing, a life's work is a struggle not a score count.
I really liked this post. It sort of elucidated how I thought about the concept of a pro gamer. There's a lot of room for professionals in the gaming industry that can have talents that span beyond winning tournaments, and who can transition from a focus on competition to other aspects of e-sport. I think it's more positive to support this than to complain about someone's success or lack thereof, especially if they're expanding the community. It creates more opportunities, not less.
EPT
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