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On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote:
i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race.
I agree, but I think Medivac speed is the more important issue. It's just too strong for all sorts of reasons. Widow Mines are annoying to watch, but I think without Medivac speed they aren't as big of a problem.
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The actual state of T in HotS is almost boring to watch: every single game and MU is MMM only!!! This is how HotS bring diversity to the game? Its the same as in the beginning of WoL.I am Terran,but just tired of watching the same and the PvT is almost a joke.I think they must make the "thrusters" lategame upgrade,when T is really struggling in TvP.The early and mid was never an issue in TvP and we got the advantage,but now its not only slight advantage,its HUGE.No way for gate units to stop this and teching to Collosi or HTs is too expensive.
Blizzard need to make the "thrusters" maybe techlab research with armory or even fusion core as the medivac healing was in BETA. The TvZ is suffering the same.Its ok,because of the Ultra buff,but playing the same strategy every single game is SOOOOO boring!!! HotS has reduced the option for now and we are still losing the tank more and more.At least we can see the most iconic T unit in the TvT,but still not enough at least for me.Still no TvP mech possible,so I expect patch real soon
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On March 18 2013 02:24 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 02:19 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. I'm not the one attempting to make a point, that was you. I was simply pointing out that the example you used to prove your point (yesterday's ZvTs) all resulted in Zerg losses. So, why would I watch the ZvTs yesterday to understand how effective these busts are? Feels like troll, I'll leave it alone. lol, my point is that whatever you think you pointed out was pointless and nerfing tanks wouldn't have changed a thing as they weren't used..instead, Widow Mines were. And I acknowledged that a potential widow mine nerf is definitely debatable, but the game hasn't even been out for a week, and you already cry imba.... Flash 3:0s Ret, and you cry imba? seriously? Pretty obvious you are the troll here.. /inb4 you should own Flash in TvZ, or Terran is imba..
You clearly lack reading comprehension. Read my previous posts then try again.
On the topic at hand, I'd still prefer that, if Blizzard sees an issue, they buff the other races rather than nerf the one that's seen as a problem. Let's add more strategy, not remove others.
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I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before.
It just makes the games sooo boring to watch
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On March 18 2013 02:56 Freeborn wrote:
Now let's watch Life's ass get kicked by Last's mass widowmines and then say Last is the better player...
WoL balance started out terran favoured and gave the first tourneys to terrans.
HotS is on its way to do the same.
Just want to quote myself again...
... we have a race that got knocked out of most WoL tournaments back in November and December, with plenty of time to practice HotS, as well as a 95% Korean line-up showing up to MLG as Terran. It would be a travesty if Terran didn't look powerful right now.
Life had 1 week with the beta, while Last has been working on it probably since December. Which do you think will do better?
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On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote:
i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race.
Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk.
I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it.
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oracle - spawn with 0 energy or energy has to be upgraded
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 02:50 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 01:58 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:53 haffy wrote:On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:
[quote]
Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend.
Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. Really, using a meme as proof of balance? really? thinking ret even stands a chance vs Flash? What you smoking? Yeah you're right. Flash. I mean whats e=? Flash. What is light. Flash. Flash AhahHAHAh, he's a miracle. King of the impossible. So as you can see from my well thought out post Terran is perfectly balanced.
You have finally been enlightened. Flash 3:0 Ret is like 1+1 = 2, gravity, or air, it cannot be argued. If it was any other way, then Zerg would be imba.
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On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before.
It just makes the games sooo boring to watch
"Man, all this action is so boring to watch!"
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On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before.
It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!"
Seriously. HAHAHA. Personally, I think if they do a nerf, it should be a control nerf. The important thing is that the medivacs can go in and out quickly; however, if this came with a loss to banking speed, it might be the appropriate trade-off. Preferable, too, to a tacked on upgrade cost and/or researchable upgrade OR cooldown/speed tweaks.
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On March 18 2013 02:50 haffy wrote:
Yeah you're right. Flash. I mean whats e=? Flash. What is light. Flash. Flash AhahHAHAh, he's a miracle. King of the impossible. So as you can see from my well thought out post Terran is perfectly balanced.
I think according to their past performances there's no reasonable argument that a balance issue can be determined from Flash beating or even utterly destroying Ret.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before.
It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!"
I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz
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Whatever changes they end up making, I think the most important thing is that they develop some sort of consistency.
The biggest problem I had with balancing in WoL was that it was completely unfair how they were doing it. For example, ghosts and hellions (indirectly) were nerfed very shortly after they were discovered to be so strong, yet infestor were left alone for the greater part of a year.
If they decide to nerf medivacs or mines, any future nerfs or buffs should be given the same amount of time that medivacs/mines were given unless if they completely break a matchup (which I don't think mines or medivacs are doing right now)
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On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before.
It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz
Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm.
Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez
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I think the current status of the Medivac is bad for one reason in particular, it again cements the sad fact that Terran as a race revolves around Marines, Marauders, Medivacs and at best one supplement unit and early game shenanigans with other units.
Why is the Medivac speed no upgrade and why is it the strongest addition to terran? Because Bio needed a big buff and was underrepresented in WoL? It doesn't make any sense, Bio gets all their upgrades shoved into them, available in the early and mid game without any additional costs or decisions to make. I really just don't get it, I generally like the changes they made with HotS apart from the Medivac (and maybe VR) change, but that change will just ruin the fun of watching the game in the long run if they don't change it immediately.
Just my opinion.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:02 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 02:24 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 02:19 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:44 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 01:26 ShamW0W wrote:On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:
[quote]
Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend.
Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here. Not just any Terran, fyi. Don't pretend as though Ret stood a chance vs God. I'm not the one attempting to make a point, that was you. I was simply pointing out that the example you used to prove your point (yesterday's ZvTs) all resulted in Zerg losses. So, why would I watch the ZvTs yesterday to understand how effective these busts are? Feels like troll, I'll leave it alone. lol, my point is that whatever you think you pointed out was pointless and nerfing tanks wouldn't have changed a thing as they weren't used..instead, Widow Mines were. And I acknowledged that a potential widow mine nerf is definitely debatable, but the game hasn't even been out for a week, and you already cry imba.... Flash 3:0s Ret, and you cry imba? seriously? Pretty obvious you are the troll here.. /inb4 you should own Flash in TvZ, or Terran is imba.. You clearly lack reading comprehension. Read my previous posts then try again. On the topic at hand, I'd still prefer that, if Blizzard sees an issue, they buff the other races rather than nerf the one that's seen as a problem. Let's add more strategy, not remove others.
1. you clearly lack logic.. worse players losing to obviously better players, is not an evidence of imba. And I am not sure if you watched game 2 of Last vs Life, no tanks again, but Life wrecked Last with ling. bling. muta. Imba? hardly.
2. Before you jumped into the conversation, I was making a point about MilesTeg suggesting a Tank nerf to address TvZ. My point being, tanks were not even used in TvZs yesterday or today, so a tank nerf is obviously not warranted. Inherently, It's like saying nerf BattleCruisers, which were not even used in the game at all. Nerf it sure, but it would not have changed a thing. On the other hand, like I mentioned earlier, if the discussion is about nerfing widow mines, sure, it is very debatable.
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On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before.
It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez
the game's been out for a week. pros are always biased, you need lots of games, aka DATA to determine imbalance. but apparently 1 weekend of games is enough for everyone to call out for terran nerfs
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 03:03 Holdenintherye wrote:
I dont think Blizzard even saw this coming. IIRC they put in the medivac speedboost because if terran lost a fight, they would end up losing all their medivacs, so the speedboost was meant to help with unit retention. But now it's being used for hyper-aggressive multi-pronged attacks that weren't possible before.
It just makes the games sooo boring to watch "Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez
well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Who can rightfully say that he/she has already figured out the entire meta-game of HotS already? Nobody. Like WoL, the metgame has been shifting..etc., and nobody had it all figured out. So, no, the game was released on the 12th, give it time before you cry imba.
Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy, a Zerg pro mind you, acknowledged there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased.
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On March 18 2013 02:31 Zorgaz wrote:Haha yeah that's why no pro players use mech. I wish mech was good :3
'What i meant was especially in TvT. If you just hold on until 200/200 any kind of bio just melts.
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On March 18 2013 03:04 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 02:54 Da.Frozzy wrote:
i really think widow mine shouldnt hit air.
would buff some harras options vs terra and wont hurt terra vs air units, because of marines and the new thor. there are tons of anti air and let us be fair, oracle and muta harras vs zerg is really something that you defend sooo easy.
for the rest lets see how the balance turns out in some weeks, especially zergs need to elarn the new timings they are hurt by this addon, because its the reactive race. Widow mines not hitting air would make mech TvZ completely obsolete. Thors alone do not cut it against the improved mutalisk. I don't know why I keep reading people suggesting nerfs to tanks, mines and hellbats. We see so little mech to begin with, how about you just nerf the damn medivac since everyone is going bio because of it.
In a mech ball, why would Thor perform any worse in HOTS than WoL? The muta buffs were acceleration and regeneration out of combat.
That said, while from a gameplay perspective I feel like Terran has a ton of anti-air options so the Widow Mine being so good vs. air is unnecessary, nerfing the Widow Mine to not hit air would likely make it feel too similar to a tank their is already quite a bit of overlap in roles there)
If ZvT is deemed a problem here are some potential buffs worth considering (obviously you wouldn't do all of these, but maybe 1 or 2):
- Hydras start with +1 Range
- +2 Cargo for Overlords once Ventral Sacs is researched
- -20 second research time for Glial Reconstitution and Tunneling Claws
- Pneumatized Carapace upgrade reduced to 75minerals/75gas
I'd love to be able to suggest a Swarm Host upgrade but they feel pretty good in ZvP right now. Possibly a movement speed buff?
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EPT
