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On March 18 2013 05:54 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 03:54 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:50 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:42 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:08 aksfjh wrote:
[quote]
"Man, all this action is so boring to watch!" I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong? Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/ So MC says P is balanced all around, but ZvT is T favored, and Stephano said Protoss was OP in ZvP, Stephano said he knows exactly what's coming, but he could not do anything about it.. so, is MC right that voidray is fine or is Stephano right saying protoss is OP? And is Suppy, the zerg pro wrong to say that there's no imba in ZvT, but people haven't figured out the timings? So is MC right, or is Stephano or Suppy right? what I think - MC obviously says P is perfectly fine, hell, he plays protoss lol Hell, you play Terran, thus you defend the race. You will feel stupied when you nerf will come. just saying. A nerf? Why? Because KOREAN terrans destroyed FOREIGNERS? Look at korean vs korean, and you will see pure balance.
Yes this whole tournament is kind of bad representation of balance. If anything, the fact that Life is in the finals shows that an actual skilled zerg can do fine when facing several of the best Terrans in SC2.
On top of that so much of the game is still getting figured out. MC showed how to stop drops, Life actually used infestors which every zerg seems to be scared of making now. I don't understand why zergs who go roach hydra blindly go vipers even when there are no tanks. Fungal is much better than cloud against a bio/widow mine army with no tanks, it doesn't take much to figure that out but players have to start doing it. And fungal does a better job of stopping drops as well. It's things like this that I wish would be thought of more before balance whining immediately.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 07:14 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 05:54 Snowbear wrote:On March 18 2013 03:54 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:50 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:42 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:33 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:30 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:23 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 03:17 DrPhilOfdOOm wrote:On March 18 2013 03:12 dacimvrl wrote:
[quote]
I know right, this is so much more boring than the last 2 GSL code S seasons of WoL. Zzzzz Wow, I think your worthy of some sort of medal for beeing the most terran biased poster on TL. You just can't accept the fact that some aspects of the terran race might be abit to powerful at its current state. Even the pros agree that T is abit silly atm. Who are you to argue? You are probably silver-diamond, go to bed... jeeez well, like I and many others have been saying, the game hasn't even been out for a week, and people are already crying imba? Which pros besides parting cried imba? Suppy acknowledge there's no imba, but Zerg haven't figured out the timings in yesterday's post-game interview. Not to mention I did acknowledge that widow mines may require a blast radius nerf earlier, so I am not sure who's more biased. There has been a beta, people knew what was potentially imba even before reliease. That was why so many hoped for a patch right as the game launched. so, that still doesn't answer my counter-argument. Which pros besides parting said imba? Like I said, Suppy, a zerg pro, said there was no imba, it was just that zerg timings haven't been figured out to adapt to the new units. So, is Suppy wrong? Well, MC for one, saying PvT is fine but ZvT is terran favored. http://www.gamespot.com/starcraft-ii-heart-of-the-swarm/videos/mc-thinks-he-can-be-champion-after-win-against-mvp-mlg-dallas-6405465/ So MC says P is balanced all around, but ZvT is T favored, and Stephano said Protoss was OP in ZvP, Stephano said he knows exactly what's coming, but he could not do anything about it.. so, is MC right that voidray is fine or is Stephano right saying protoss is OP? And is Suppy, the zerg pro wrong to say that there's no imba in ZvT, but people haven't figured out the timings? So is MC right, or is Stephano or Suppy right? what I think - MC obviously says P is perfectly fine, hell, he plays protoss lol Hell, you play Terran, thus you defend the race. You will feel stupied when you nerf will come. just saying. A nerf? Why? Because KOREAN terrans destroyed FOREIGNERS? Look at korean vs korean, and you will see pure balance. Yes this whole tournament is kind of bad representation of balance. If anything, the fact that Life is in the finals shows that an actual skilled zerg can do fine when facing several of the best Terrans in SC2. On top of that so much of the game is still getting figured out. MC showed how to stop drops, Life actually used infestors which every zerg seems to be scared of making now. I don't understand why zergs who go roach hydra blindly go vipers even when there are no tanks. Fungal is much better than cloud against a bio/widow mine army with no tanks, it doesn't take much to figure that out but players have to start doing it. And fungal does a better job of stopping drops as well. It's things like this that I wish would be thought of more before balance whining immediately.
I agree to a certain extent, but did you see the Ret vs Flash series? Ret used the vipers quite effectively and abducted the boosted medivacs back to his hydra army. That was pretty incredible!
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Let's take a look at MLG's terrans:
- Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean)
- Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean)
- Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean)
- Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran)
- Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean)
- Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran)
- MKP: dies to jakji (korean)
- Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean)
- Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on:
- Polt killing creator
- flash killing parting
- innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?!
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Khaydarin Amulet being reintroduced would be interesting, I think. Considering how much aggression is going on and how Protoss is largely energy based for that tech path, it may be worth a try. I do not think Blizzard would even consider it, though.
However, I would prefer Blizzard leave the game alone and allow players to balance the game themselves for a while.
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I hope blizzard wont patch anything for the next 2 months,
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On March 18 2013 08:19 j4vz wrote:
I hope blizzard wont patch anything for the next 2 months,
+1
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It's true that we see the player with the better mechanics succeed more so now than in WoL, however Terrans seems to dominate for good reasons. They have more things they can abuse with an insane amount of apm, compared to a skilled Zerg or a skilled Protoss.
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Hello y'all
I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH??
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no changes for another 3 months
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half these people needa go watch some life games
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On March 18 2013 08:51 FrogsAreDogs wrote:
Hello y'all
I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH??
Unstoppable?
Or you know... just adapt.
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I still haven't seen much Swarm Host usage at the pro level yet. It seems dropping anywhere the SH aren't will win you the game 100% of the time.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 08:53 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 08:51 FrogsAreDogs wrote:
Hello y'all
I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH?? Unstoppable? Or you know... just adapt.
pffft Dude, that makes too much sense, adapting is for Life, nobody else needs to adapt!
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On March 18 2013 08:51 FrogsAreDogs wrote:
Hello y'all
I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH??
Lets wait at least one month before doing anything at all. If things are not balanced after 1-2 months then maybe.
I think making it a techlab upgrade and revert the hellbat cargo nerf would be a good idea.
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On March 18 2013 08:51 FrogsAreDogs wrote:
Hello y'all
I have here a WONDERFULL suggestion for medivac speed:
1, turn it into a fusion core research, effectively making it a late game spell
2, OR, remove the flipping medivac energy upgrade at Starport tech lab and replace it with medivac speed upgrade. Forces you to have medivac speed later, thus negating much of the early game unstoppable medivac harass. It also limits the number of early game medivacs by forcing you to make a tech lab, BUT effectively preserving speed medivac play later on in the game. EH EH??
Just make it so medivacs control differently when they are boosted and don't turn on a dime. That gives the prepared player the ability to punish poor control, rather than just time nerfing the unit until the end game. Or give phoenixes the ability to slow them with the gravton beam. Or move vipers down to lair tech and make the cloud research-able, so zerg can yank them back.
But yeah, don't nerf them directly. They are to awesome to nerf.
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On March 18 2013 08:13 Snowbear wrote:
Let's take a look at MLG's terrans:
- Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean)
- Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean)
- Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean)
- Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran)
- Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean)
- Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran)
- MKP: dies to jakji (korean)
- Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean)
- Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on:
- Polt killing creator
- flash killing parting
- innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?!
No offence, but you are implying that the MLG-games are the only HotS-games that have been played. In addition to the one bo3 (which was actually a bo5) you seem to think is what everyone is basing all of their complaints on, we also have IEM and the MLG showdown qualifiers to look at, and in those, Terran victories have been overrepresented.
Also, your assessment of the MLG-games is very one-dimensional. First off, the foreigners you imply should reasonably always lose to Koreans include players who have a good record vs Korean players (Stephano has a 5-4 record in Proleague in WoL, etc). Secondly, you are not looking at map score or the actual play in the games at all, only bo5-wins or losses.
Is it reasonable that someone like Stephano loses to a Kespa-Terran? Well, sure. Is it reasonable that he loses 0-3 while looking completely helpless? Maybe, but it's at least worth taking into consideration who he is and how he lost, and not just "he's a foreigner facing a Korean, of course he lost".
I'm not saying Terran is super-OP and needs to be nerfed into the ground, but there's definitely more to consider than one bo3. I also feel like this "wait and see"-attitude is a bit misguided. It's a sensible idea when the game seems balanced, but can't we at least make sure to start with an even playing field before letting things evolve naturally? When there's an apparent (and seemingly statistically supported) imbalance, wouldn't it make more sense to sort that out and then let the pro's figure everything out for themselves?
I'm Terran myself, btw. Just figured that it would be good to mention. 
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On March 18 2013 09:52 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 08:13 Snowbear wrote:
Let's take a look at MLG's terrans:
- Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean)
- Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean)
- Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean)
- Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran)
- Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean)
- Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran)
- MKP: dies to jakji (korean)
- Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean)
- Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on:
- Polt killing creator
- flash killing parting
- innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?! No offence, but you are implying that the MLG-games are the only HotS-games that have been played. In addition to the one bo3 (which was actually a bo5) you seem to think is what everyone is basing all of their complaints on, we also have IEM and the MLG showdown qualifiers to look at, and in those, Terran victories have been overrepresented. Also, your assessment of the MLG-games is very one-dimensional. First off, the foreigners you imply should reasonably always lose to Koreans include players who have a good record vs Korean players (Stephano has a 5-4 record in Proleague in WoL, etc). Secondly, you are not looking at map score or the actual play in the games at all, only bo5-wins or losses. Is it reasonable that someone like Stephano loses to a Kespa-Terran? Well, sure. Is it reasonable that he loses 0-3 while looking completely helpless? Maybe, but it's at least worth taking into consideration who he is and how he lost, and not just "he's a foreigner facing a Korean, of course he lost". I'm not saying Terran is super-OP and needs to be nerfed into the ground, but there's definitely more to consider than one bo3. I also feel like this "wait and see"-attitude is a bit misguided. It's a sensible idea when the game seems balanced, but can't we at least make sure to start with an even playing field before letting things evolve naturally? When there's an apparent (and seemingly statistically supported) imbalance, wouldn't it make more sense to sort that out and then let the pro's figure everything out for themselves? I'm Terran myself, btw. Just figured that it would be good to mention.
1) IEM and MLG showdown qualifiers: PRE patch. Hellbats were imba, and they got patched.
2) Stephano, vortix, scarlett: all were destroying code S terrans in wol. Broodlord + infestor.
3) I look at the bo3 in general, and I see no problems.
4) Stephano is known for being lazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was half as prepared as Last.
5) The game is 5 days old. We terrans had to undergo broodlord + infestor untill the day of the release of HOTS. Put things into perspective.
It was statistically supported that zerg was OP in wol, and still everything was fine.
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I think mine AI needs to be fixed, at least no nerfs to Terran based on this tournament. The swarm is still strong.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
Top tier Kr Terrans beat mediocre foreign Zergs, community cry imba. Now Life beats Flash with pretty much the same strategy over and over, I wonder if Zerg is imba now?
I think Life proved a point - baddies QQ, pros adapt.
lol, i kid, i kid. That was the most entertaining tournament in ~4 months!! Grats to Life!
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I think HOTS balance is looking pretty solid after watching MLG. The first few rounds were the expected beatdowns of koreans vs foreigners. Once we got into the top level koreans, everyone seemed well matched. I'm so happy Life won :D
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EPT
