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On March 18 2013 11:03 Destructicon wrote:
Medivacs are only guaranteed damage if you let them do damage through lack of scouting. Careful overlord/observer placement will give you a heads up on when its comming, and static defenses in key locations will not only force the terran to divert more attention to his drops, but will also buy you some valuable time to reinforce your location, its also more cost efficient to lose 1 static defense then workers.
True to some extent, of course, but it still seems like the amount of resources and effort you need to use to ward off drops is not even close to proportionate to how easy and simple they are to perform. Defending against the drops requires scouting, overlord-positioning, static defence and other things you mentioned, but actually doing the drops doesn't require much at all. You don't need scouting information, since almost regardless of what is defending you can escape unscathed if you're not completely distracted. You don't need a big investment in tech and units since marine/medivac is what you want for your main army anyway. You don't need good micro to execute the drop, and you don't need to be particularly careful about when and where you engage the boost, since the cooldown time is really short.
My main problem with Infestors in WoL was not that they were powerful, but that they were powerful and, for the most part, really freaking easy to use. Landing good fungals didn't require much skill, but splitting to avoid fungals was a complete nightmare. While medivacs are (thankfully) not on Infestor-level yet, they still feel too easy to use in comparison to how much you gain from them, and how difficult it is to defend against them. As a Terran player, it pisses me off a little bit that dropping is so much easier than is WoL. I love the idea behind the boost since it gives the Terran a constant aggressive option, but right now, it seems very low risk/low skill/high reward. A cooldown increase would, IMO, be a good way to adress that.
On March 18 2013 11:03 Destructicon wrote:
There are really very little conclusions that you could draw from this MLG too, the game is still too new, and very different styles are starting to be experimented with, terran is again the first to use all its new tools and its zergs and toss that are figuring out how to use their own as well as how to handle terrans.
Mines aren't that bad either, you can either slowly and meticulously clear them out with ranged units + detectors, or you can use expendable units to absorb the shots and then flood in. Also, both zergs and toss have tools to bait out mine detonations, either 1 single ling for zerg or a hallucination from toss, its just that people are not that used to it yet.
Wait for GSL before you draw any conclusions.
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. There's no reason why Terran players would be the first to start using their new tools in HotS. My conclusions (like I said) aren't based on this MLG alone, but on the Showdowns, IEM, and also streamed ladder games, pro-player comments, etc. And while I get where you're coming from with the "wait and see"-reasoning, it still doesn't make sense to me while you can't start with what seems like an even playing field and THEN wait and see.
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different tools have different skill cap, and different races adapt at different speed. Too early to tell, wait for it.
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Because I care, I will make post on this.
So, we have protoss, with the oracle, which is about the stupidest unit design ever created. Far too easy to get and gives Protoss far too strong of an opener (vs any race). As we all saw, players would leave 5-10 marines in their mineral line in order to defend this oracle "harass" but it just was not enough! Now, many people who like Protoss may rush to say "but if you make a turret/spore/cannon, it's no problem!" but even that is false. You are STILL required to leave marines there due to how much HP the Oracle actually has (100 life, 60 shield). It's DPS is so incredibly high that is can kill 3 workers, and slip right out without taking any effective damage.
I'm not done with this oracle yet though!! The craziest part about this unit is, even though it's really strong and may help equalize PvT, it actually requires very little skill to use. It's damage is so high that microing it doesn't even do anything. It cannot attack air, so there is no prioritizing that it has to do. It's also so fast that nothing can really keep up to it except for mutas (this situation never really happens anyway). It's a pointless unit, adding nothing to the game.
Voidray has not been used enough competitively for me to say whether it's too strong or not. It looks pretty powerful, but I've seen people lose with it plenty too. I will leave that one untouched.
The medivac. What a unit it is!! It heals and has 8 seconds of untouchable speed! (20 second cooldown). The idea itself is actually pretty good. It adds (some) tactical depth to the game. But the medivac itself was already fairly strong. The real issue here is that the medivac can use this as much as it wants! This is not an upgrade like blink, this ability is available from the get-go! But because Blizzard forgot one of the key factors in what makes a skill/unit good, the ability is basically used as much as possible. Why doesn't the Ignite Afterburners cost medivac life (like a stim) or use energy? It's absolutely retarded. I like medivacs, and I like drops, and I like multi-harass, but this spell was simply half-assed.
Then there's the widow mine. This is also another unit that could definitely add depth to the game, and almost does!! But right now, it's too strong, too early. It's far too expendable, so there's little reason to ever NOT get at least 1-2 in a match. There is no reason why a unit should be able to get burrow/cloak this early in a game. It's far too abusive. I wouldn't even say players are using this unit even close to its potential. Perhaps if they made it visible during its downtime or uptime (when the "shot" is available or not) then it would be better. You can position these really tactically, much like a siege tank or burrowed bling, but since it can attack both air and ground AND has cloak, it's too strong/flexible.
But ultralisks, what a stupid unit they are! While not totally overpowered (it DOES require hive tech, so much more can happen before then...) it still is a horrible unit. It is the equivalent of a zealot, except does splash damage and is stupidly large. The fact that it does full damage to everything makes it possibly the most herpderp unit out there. You basically don't even micro the unit. You let it do its thing on some marines and they die. That's total shit. Direct damage buffs don't make the unit a GOOD unit, it just makes it stupid and strong. Zzz..
If they want to make a game with depth, then they seriously need to make all of these new units/spells have a downside to them. Since Path of Exile is an actually well thought-out game, I will use it as an example. There are some large keystones (passive skills that you can get when you level) which provide a beneficial effect. But (almost) ALL of these have a negative effect to them...
Elemental Equilibrium: Enemies you hit with elemental damage temporarily get +25% resist to those elements and -50% to other elements.
Vaal Pact: Life Leech applies instantly. Life recovery from life flasks (aka heal potions) and regeneration has no effect.
Point Blank: Projectiles deal up to 50% more damage to close targets, but deal less damage than normal to targets farther away.
ALL of these have their pros and cons. The same should apply to SC2 units. The oracle is fast enough that even though it cannot attack air, it can still come in, deal tons of damage, and scurry out. This means that the "cons" for this unit are mostly negligible. The medivac doesn't require an upgrade for IA, nor does it require energy or life. Widow mine is too abusive, forcing some form of detection early on which can directly and indirectly cause a lot of damage.
Blizzard needs to just think about the skills they are adding and think "Will this require skill and require thought?"
Because currently, they are adding in random shit in hopes that it will make the game good. That's not good.
I'm sure only 5 people will end up reading my oh-so-logical post, but that's okay!!
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This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
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4713 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:35 RaZorwire wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:03 Destructicon wrote:
Medivacs are only guaranteed damage if you let them do damage through lack of scouting. Careful overlord/observer placement will give you a heads up on when its comming, and static defenses in key locations will not only force the terran to divert more attention to his drops, but will also buy you some valuable time to reinforce your location, its also more cost efficient to lose 1 static defense then workers.
True to some extent, of course, but it still seems like the amount of resources and effort you need to use to ward off drops is not even close to proportionate to how easy and simple they are to perform. Defending against the drops requires scouting, overlord-positioning, static defence and other things you mentioned, but actually doing the drops doesn't require much at all. You don't need scouting information, since almost regardless of what is defending you can escape unscathed if you're not completely distracted. You don't need a big investment in tech and units since marine/medivac is what you want for your main army anyway. You don't need good micro to execute the drop, and you don't need to be particularly careful about when and where you engage the boost, since the cooldown time is really short. My main problem with Infestors in WoL was not that they were powerful, but that they were powerful and, for the most part, really freaking easy to use. Landing good fungals didn't require much skill, but splitting to avoid fungals was a complete nightmare. While medivacs are (thankfully) not on Infestor-level yet, they still feel too easy to use in comparison to how much you gain from them, and how difficult it is to defend against them. As a Terran player, it pisses me off a little bit that dropping is so much easier than is WoL. I love the idea behind the boost since it gives the Terran a constant aggressive option, but right now, it seems very low risk/low skill/high reward. A cooldown increase would, IMO, be a good way to adress that. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:03 Destructicon wrote:
There are really very little conclusions that you could draw from this MLG too, the game is still too new, and very different styles are starting to be experimented with, terran is again the first to use all its new tools and its zergs and toss that are figuring out how to use their own as well as how to handle terrans.
Mines aren't that bad either, you can either slowly and meticulously clear them out with ranged units + detectors, or you can use expendable units to absorb the shots and then flood in. Also, both zergs and toss have tools to bait out mine detonations, either 1 single ling for zerg or a hallucination from toss, its just that people are not that used to it yet.
Wait for GSL before you draw any conclusions. I'm not sure I understand your reasoning here. There's no reason why Terran players would be the first to start using their new tools in HotS. My conclusions (like I said) aren't based on this MLG alone, but on the Showdowns, IEM, and also streamed ladder games, pro-player comments, etc. And while I get where you're coming from with the "wait and see"-reasoning, it still doesn't make sense to me while you can't start with what seems like an even playing field and THEN wait and see.
The reason why terrans use their new tools now is because they are cheeper/more accessible or, already integrated into their builds/styles. Terrans always like to drop, speed boost just encourages it more, mines are cheep and low tech + very versatile, its very natural people will make them and experiment with the quickly, same with reapers. Vipers and SH on the other hand are very high tier units and require either a very new play style to use correctly, or require a lot of practice to learn to use properly. Oracles and SG openings require a totally different play style, tempest is high tier unit etc.
As you can see, all the elements are in place for terrans to be the first to experiment and possibly master the use of their new toys, while zergs and toss will need more time to do that + they also need to adapt to the new terran styles.
It kind of feels like an even playing field right now for me, based on what I've seen. I truly feel like we need a GSL to really draw the conclusions necessary for any adjustments.
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The reason why terrans use their new tools now is because they are cheeper/more accessible or, already integrated into their builds/styles. Terrans always like to drop, speed boost just encourages it more, mines are cheep and low tech + very versatile, its very natural people will make them and experiment with the quickly, same with reapers. Vipers and SH on the other hand are very high tier units and require either a very new play style to use correctly, or require a lot of practice to learn to use properly. Oracles and SG openings require a totally different play style, tempest is high tier unit etc.
As you can see, all the elements are in place for terrans to be the first to experiment and possibly master the use of their new toys, while zergs and toss will need more time to do that + they also need to adapt to the new terran styles.
It kind of feels like an even playing field right now for me, based on what I've seen. I truly feel like we need a GSL to really draw the conclusions necessary for any adjustments.
Very well said!
And I completely agree about waiting for a full GSL before making any drastic changes..
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On March 18 2013 11:46 Infinite Loop wrote:
This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting.
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I think Terrans need a bit more time to fine tune and iron out some stuff. Life winning over Flash tonight really didn't mean much to me, in general Terrans did really well in the event, too early to say if it's really imbalanced that badly or not.
TvZ looks great again and is really fun to watch. It's not a race to infestor broodlord every game anymore which is incredibly refreshing to watch.
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We had how many utterly top tier Terrans this recent MLG?
It is no wonder the field was dominated so heavily.
People were screaming imba during Ret vs Flash, yet the result would have been the same. Ret played BW so he just needs to remember multiple control groups exist, he was literally 1a'ing his army back to deal with drops. Static D was absent vs a lot of T drops. You can't tell balance from these games quite yet. You can tell Zergs are getting outplayed.
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On March 18 2013 11:59 AIKfans87 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:46 Infinite Loop wrote:
This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting.
Worse is that it trickles down into the forums and fan conversations.
Sometimes when my friends and I play we'll get only a few games in before they put on their blizzard employee hats and start pointing things out they're favorite player/caster has said is "broken" / "too strong". Always notably from their race.
In Blizzard's attempt to listen to us and our input they've unleashed balance worries, and the need to be vocal about them, to every player on ladder.
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Balance is a joke and zerg matchups are boring.
ZvT and ZvP is unplayable late game. ZvZ is mutas vs mutas 99% of the time. Back to WoL til they fix the bullshit!
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On March 18 2013 15:33 Topzerg wrote:
Balance is a joke and zerg matchups are boring.
ZvT and ZvP is unplayable late game. ZvZ is mutas vs mutas 99% of the time. Back to WoL til they fix the bullshit!
Uh zvt and zvp are plalyable late game, zvz muta vs muta so much more fun then wol style. Sorry you don't enjoy compositions that require a bit more skill then infestor/bl/corruptor and are a lot more fun to watch 
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mutas vs mutas doesnt require more skills, it only requires morel uck being the first to hit the opponents expansion with a lucky runby...
and if it was balanced, i should not be able to play protoss at the same level i play zerg when ive been playign zerg for 2 years 
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On March 18 2013 15:49 Topzerg wrote:mutas vs mutas doesnt require more skills, it only requires morel uck being the first to hit the opponents expansion with a lucky runby... and if it was balanced, i should not be able to play protoss at the same level i play zerg when ive been playign zerg for 2 years
Maybe Protoss is the race that suites your style more? :D
besides, zvz is about scouting, i dont think you win because of luck or i have never won or lost a zvz because of luck ^^
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On March 18 2013 11:44 Blargh wrote:
But ultralisks, what a stupid unit they are! While not totally overpowered (it DOES require hive tech, so much more can happen before then...) it still is a horrible unit. It is the equivalent of a zealot, except does splash damage and is stupidly large. The fact that it does full damage to everything makes it possibly the most herpderp unit out there. You basically don't even micro the unit. You let it do its thing on some marines and they die. That's total shit. Direct damage buffs don't make the unit a GOOD unit, it just makes it stupid and strong. Zzz..
IMO the ultra really needed that change. In WoL it was an T3 melee unit which got slaughtered by zealots and marines.
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On March 18 2013 08:21 WhiteSatin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 08:19 j4vz wrote:
I hope blizzard wont patch anything for the next 2 months, +1
Gotta agree, I hope they don't change anything until at least the first HOTS GSL season finishes.
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1. Make the Oracle start with 0 energy
2. Increase the cost of the Widow Mine to 100/50 up from 75/25
I hope they leave the Medivac untouched and target the Widow Mine. The Medivac requires alot of effort on the part of the Terran, mines do not.
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its not that speedvacs are OP,
the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it
once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron]
im happy it doesnt use any energy, easier to snipe in 1 shot with feedbacks
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On March 18 2013 19:00 Sniffy wrote:
I hope they leave the Medivac untouched and target the Widow Mine. The Medivac requires alot of effort on the part of the Terran, mines do not.
How so? It seems to me that the boost has made dropping significantly easier and less risky, than in WoL.
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On March 18 2013 19:32 danakaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 19:00 Sniffy wrote:
I hope they leave the Medivac untouched and target the Widow Mine. The Medivac requires alot of effort on the part of the Terran, mines do not. How so? It seems to me that the boost has made dropping significantly easier and less risky, than in WoL.
I don't think that's a bad thing though as I feel like at times drops felt almost impossible in WoL especially when Z were very active with Mutas. With Mutas now being faster I think drops are ok at the moment but mines are ridiculously cost efficient and in all honesty aren't that difficult to place intelligently and require no micro past that.
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EPT
