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ejozl
Denmark3380 Posts
36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size. I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. | ||
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Ercster
United States603 Posts
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these): Increase their cost Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s. Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. | ||
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imMUTAble787
United States680 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size. I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. Yeah because one tournament a week after release is a viable sample size. You must be david kims secret account | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:59 AIKfans87 wrote: So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting. No it was awful. Day9 was going on and on about how outrageously strong Hellbats were, when hardly anyone was even making them, and when they were made they were not deciding factors in the game. admittedly, even as a terran, the medivac boost made me cringe reguarly although after we got to the quarter finals, the standard of play shot up through the roof and we got so many awesome games I dunno what to think now. Definitely would wait a while before changing mines, though. | ||
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dacimvrl
Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size. I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. Do yourself a favor and look at the Terran line-up at the MLG, then look at the Zerg and Protoss Lineups before you cry imba and make yourself look like a dimwit. KTHXBYE Terran = all top-tier Kr Terran except for Thorzain, and needless to say, Thorzain didn't do well, Zerg only had 3 good players, Life, Leenock, Stephano, the rest? /lol. and toss? you know the drill. Between all the Terran players, there's easily more championship/titles than Zerg and Toss combined then times 3. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_MLG_Winter_Championship | ||
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size. I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. havent been following hots,but just looking at the liquipedia page MLG had like 70% of the world's best terrans thrown against 2 good zergs and 3 good tosses? hardly representative if you ask me. this new medivac skill was quite surprising though...correct me if im wrong, but they basically un-nerfed medivacs to what they used to be back around the second GSL | ||
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butchji
Germany1531 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size. I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. You could make energy cost for medivac boost 200 and Flash would still win vs someone like ret. Those percentages mean nothing. | ||
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eXdeath
France66 Posts
When is the next GSL scheduled? There are a loooot of Zergs, I think we will see if there really are strong balance issues with this race. | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
Just because the best players play a particular race doesn't mean that aspects of that race aren't imbalanced. Judging balance from one tournament is pretty dumb but you can't rely on statements like 'oh the best players are all terrans, therefore there's no imbalance'. Those players could quite reasonably be the best players in virtue of the advantages that terran brings over the other races. Speed medivacs look problematic for mech play in TvT in all honesty, though. How are you supposed to simultaneously defend your main against a 4/5 medivac doom drop (outside of mass turrets which you're not going to be able to afford unless you're way ahead)? We could see how much trouble it caused for the far more mobile bio-mech in the Flash vs Innovation set. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size. I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. I would be fine with the "visible for X seconds after detonation" nerf honestly. Regardless, 10 of the best Terrans in the world trashing a bunch of low grade foreigners doesn't warrant an instant Terran nerf. | ||
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Elvin
149 Posts
TvZ: Massively hardcountered by all tier 3 zerg units (Broodlords, Viper, Ultra). TvP: Still only good for some semi all-in pushes on 1/2 bases. TvT: It is used but leave your 4 tanks defending your 3rd without a babysit and 6 marauders will just come and wreck them. Blizzard for some reason hates tanks and I find it hilarious that all the new changes for the Widow mine could have worked for the siege tank as well. (+35 dmg to shields and faster siege(burrow)) , because we all know that moving out with tanks is extremely dangerous and even top world terrans have troubles not sieging late vs zerg. | ||
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scojac
United States99 Posts
On March 18 2013 21:18 Elvin wrote: Anyone dissapointed with the current Siege Tank situation? It's even worse than in HotS. Plus it is overshadowed by Widow mines which is much cheaper, faster built, can hit air and overall more effective than tanks. (Other than early base defend because most people think that if flash incorporated 1-2 tanks to defend his base instead of mines he would have held the massive ling+baneling pushes) But that is the only thing tanks are good at. Defending early game pushes hidden between 6 supply depos and on a highground. TvZ: Massively hardcountered by all tier 3 zerg units (Broodlords, Viper, Ultra). TvP: Still only good for some semi all-in pushes on 1/2 bases. TvT: It is used but leave your 4 tanks defending your 3rd without a babysit and 6 marauders will just come and wreck them. Blizzard for some reason hates tanks and I find it hilarious that all the new changes for the Widow mine could have worked for the siege tank as well. (+35 dmg to shields and faster siege(burrow)) , because we all know that moving out with tanks is extremely dangerous and even top world terrans have troubles not sieging late vs zerg. I think that widow mines and tanks don't need to be an either/or choice. Widow mines actually do a really good job of protecting smaller areas, and can also act like turrets in protecting tanks from air. A zerg versus tanks wants to rush his whole army in as quickly as possible to crush a tank line. If he does this while there are mines burrowed around, he could wind up losing his entire army anyway. But, it's really too early to tell. Flash vs. Life has me thinking that pure bio/mine is just too flimsy to be anything more than a gamble/changeup strategy. | ||
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Infinite Loop
New Zealand41 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote: For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops. For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these): Increase their cost Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s. Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
On March 18 2013 21:18 Elvin wrote: Anyone dissapointed with the current Siege Tank situation? It's even worse than in HotS. Plus it is overshadowed by Widow mines which is much cheaper, faster built, can hit air and overall more effective than tanks. (Other than early base defend because most people think that if flash incorporated 1-2 tanks to defend his base instead of mines he would have held the massive ling+baneling pushes) But that is the only thing tanks are good at. Defending early game pushes hidden between 6 supply depos and on a highground. TvZ: Massively hardcountered by all tier 3 zerg units (Broodlords, Viper, Ultra). TvP: Still only good for some semi all-in pushes on 1/2 bases. TvT: It is used but leave your 4 tanks defending your 3rd without a babysit and 6 marauders will just come and wreck them. Blizzard for some reason hates tanks and I find it hilarious that all the new changes for the Widow mine could have worked for the siege tank as well. (+35 dmg to shields and faster siege(burrow)) , because we all know that moving out with tanks is extremely dangerous and even top world terrans have troubles not sieging late vs zerg. Yeah, good points. I really dislike the state of the Siege Tank in SC2. I think Widow Mines should get a slight damage decrease (-5) in +Shield (no longer onehit Stalkers and Oracles, but almost) as well as decreased splash damage/radius. Do Widow Mines get +damage from Mech Upgrades? | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On March 18 2013 21:18 Elvin wrote: Anyone dissapointed with the current Siege Tank situation? It's even worse than in HotS. Plus it is overshadowed by Widow mines which is much cheaper, faster built, can hit air and overall more effective than tanks. (Other than early base defend because most people think that if flash incorporated 1-2 tanks to defend his base instead of mines he would have held the massive ling+baneling pushes) But that is the only thing tanks are good at. Defending early game pushes hidden between 6 supply depos and on a highground. TvZ: Massively hardcountered by all tier 3 zerg units (Broodlords, Viper, Ultra). TvP: Still only good for some semi all-in pushes on 1/2 bases. TvT: It is used but leave your 4 tanks defending your 3rd without a babysit and 6 marauders will just come and wreck them. Blizzard for some reason hates tanks and I find it hilarious that all the new changes for the Widow mine could have worked for the siege tank as well. (+35 dmg to shields and faster siege(burrow)) , because we all know that moving out with tanks is extremely dangerous and even top world terrans have troubles not sieging late vs zerg. "Dissapointed" is a weak word for what am I feeling... This unit still exist? No tanks in TvZ,none in TvP.TvT will continue with their pressence,but I think is all about the Pros dicovering new strategies.The more time pass,the less widow mines will be used.Tanks are still good,but the mobility of the BIO makes players forget about siege lines.Ultralisks with splash damage are not helping,so maybe its time to make them 2 supply? Pros still ignore widow mines and dont know how to counter them well,but watching MLG and how Life played..I only await GSL to begin where 15!!! real good Zerg will face 9 Terrans and 7 Protoss.There is the true,where games are well prepared and are no foreigners to break the statistics.Only Stephano(one more patchzerg),but will not pass the RO32 for sure. The game has not changed so much.MMM was the combo to play in all TvX MU in the beginning of WoL and look how we ended this... | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size. I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. Minimal sample size that doesn't account for player skill (eg the fact that the tournament was filled with korean terrans). Suggest sweeping nerfs to terran. Really? | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size. I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. Why the fuck are people asking for balance at the highest levels for over 1 year, and suddenly start quoting these kind of stats :o The games between koreans were amazing, went both ways, I don't see why people are complaining. Except for the fact that drops and forced multitasking are the bane and endless frustration of all newbies, so maybe it's understandable everyone and their mothers are rallied against medivacs. | ||
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ShamW0W
160 Posts
Looking at MLG I don't think you can really draw a single conclusion on game balance. Since ZvT is the hot topic, the things that we learned are: -Bio + Mine is a very viable TvZ strategy -Speed Medivacs lead to more action oriented gameplay -Zerg can defeat this combination of Bio/Mine/Speed Medivac If Blizzard decides there are problems (which, according to the latest interview they did) then I HOPE that their solution is to add more harass weapons/capabilities to Zerg/Protoss rather than nerfing Terran's ability to harass. Subjectively I thought this weekend's games were incredibly fun to watch, mainly because of how Terran could successfully harass which forced incredible multitasking on both sides. I'd like to see gameplay continue in that direction. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
I would suggest everyone look at SC2 with a wider lens than just "this race beat that race" and actually examine what is fun or exciting about it. Because regardless of any other factor watching terran throughout this tournament was actually fun. Medivacs (especially in tvt) were exciting, widow mines, despite kind of overshadowing tanks, were exciting. And that's something SC2 has been lacking for a very, very long time. If you honestly advocate nerfing or taking away these sorts of elements, you're not just wrong, you're an enemy of esports. What you need to be doing is begging Blizzard to treat this like a beta and add/remove things to the other races to bring back this much needed, long forgotten thing called "excitement" to SC2. I know it's foreign and strange to actually see interesting things in SC2, but if you bring these other races in line rather than devote your energy to dragging Terran back down based on questionable data, you will be doing a service not just to yourself but to the world. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10126 Posts
On March 18 2013 20:03 ejozl wrote: 75% 9 : ZvP :3 25% 36% 14: ZvT :25 64% 37% 14: PvT :24 63% Winrates for MLG, even though a very small sample size. I would say add 25 energy cost to Medivac boost and either give Widow Mines friendly fire on Widow Mines, or make it visible for 3 seconds after an explosion have occured. Check the participants. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_MLG_Winter_Championship Then get a clue of how small and unbalanced that sample size is with : 9 Korean terrans / 1 Foreigner Terran. 2 Korean zergs / 8 Foreigner Zergs 6 Korean Protoss / 6 Foreigner Protoss | ||
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