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On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent.
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On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent.
Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third.
This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
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You have recall, so if the terran does go for this base race you can recall back and deal with it. The ability that was used once, maybe twice in mlg.
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On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
You should specify that this is the case with whatever build you're talking about. Because stargate play obviously does not have this issue. Etc, pretty sick of seeing all these absolutes.
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On March 18 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:25 ThirdDegree wrote:
I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me. I have been thinking this as well. I don’t think it would be a huge different to how the unit is used, but would make it so the other races could punish sloppy use of the boost. Plus it just makes sense that the medicvac would control differently while boosted. So instead of charging in, seeing a group of stalkers and zipping out with only taking one shot; the medivac might take 5-7 shots before escaping.
"Instead of the drop being useful once again, let's bring it back to WoL standards!" 5-7 shots kills a medivac btw. It's not proven to be broken yet, and everybody clamoring for changes at this point is stupid.
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On March 18 2013 23:37 tauliss wrote:
You have recall, so if the terran does go for this base race you can recall back and deal with it. The ability that was used once, maybe twice in mlg.
Recall stuns your units for 8 seconds and they appear around the nexus in a huge mess, zealots and stalkers everywhere. Against stimmed marines and marauders, that would lead to a lot of lost supply with no damage. Even if you did damage, the terran can just pick up and leave. One way damage is always bad and its super bad when stim is involved. And recalling back might not lead to you denying their third base, which is how they are getting ahead. It might work, but it is super risky and could lose you the game outright.
Once again, protoss may figure out how to harass the third, but its not going to be with the main army. That thing needs to stay home.
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On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments?
What evidence do you have that they cannot adapt to Afterburn tactics? Because that's what you're claiming when you say that it's imbalanced: that they cannot effectively adapt to it.
Just because someone loses to something doesn't mean that there wasn't a way for them to deal with it.
People aren't saying "the game is fine." People are saying "stop jumping the gun at balance; give it time for actual evidence to emerge." What you put forth is not evidence; it's your own gut reaction to people losing to something you don't think they should be losing to.
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Its too soon.
Half of you havent even gotten out of the lower leagues. Its like listening to a fat person talk about weight loss.
And the good zergs sure spotted those medvacs just fine.
too soon folks... too soon
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On March 18 2013 23:39 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:25 ThirdDegree wrote:
I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me. I have been thinking this as well. I don’t think it would be a huge different to how the unit is used, but would make it so the other races could punish sloppy use of the boost. Plus it just makes sense that the medicvac would control differently while boosted. So instead of charging in, seeing a group of stalkers and zipping out with only taking one shot; the medivac might take 5-7 shots before escaping. "Instead of the drop being useful once again, let's bring it back to WoL standards!" 5-7 shots kills a medivac btw. It's not proven to be broken yet, and everybody clamoring for changes at this point is stupid.
Oh my bad, I forgot that, 2-3 shot then. As I said earlier, I don’t want the ability nerfed, I just want to be able to deal with it with micro. I will take anything they give me. Nerf blink and make it come earlier. Or make the medivacs control a little different so I can out position them. The ability is awesome, I just want to have the chance to be as awesome to deal with it.
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I play terran so this is mainly from a spectator-perspective but protoss just feels hopelessly limited. Perhaps people will come up with stuff but I feel like the mothership core should have an added harassfunction in TvP. My suggestion would be to make it so that recall only covers a couple of units or perhaps only gateway units or something like that as a drawback but should be instant as an added benefit. That way you can do more of a harass-type attack with a couple of units and a msc and then recall home if need be.
I could also easily see some cool later-game upgrades for the msc such as teleportation and such (with some type of limit so it doesnt get imba).
Anything to break the protoss defend-defend-defend-defend into deathball or all-in style.
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On March 18 2013 23:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:39 aksfjh wrote:On March 18 2013 23:29 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:25 ThirdDegree wrote:
I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me. I have been thinking this as well. I don’t think it would be a huge different to how the unit is used, but would make it so the other races could punish sloppy use of the boost. Plus it just makes sense that the medicvac would control differently while boosted. So instead of charging in, seeing a group of stalkers and zipping out with only taking one shot; the medivac might take 5-7 shots before escaping. "Instead of the drop being useful once again, let's bring it back to WoL standards!" 5-7 shots kills a medivac btw. It's not proven to be broken yet, and everybody clamoring for changes at this point is stupid. Oh my bad, I forgot that, 2-3 shot then. As I said earlier, I don’t want the ability nerfed, I just want to be able to deal with it with micro. I will take anything they give me. Nerf blink and make it come earlier. Or make the medivacs control a little different so I can out position them. The ability is awesome, I just want to have the chance to be as awesome to deal with it.
Whoops, I can't do math this morning. 5-7 shots don't kill medivacs, but still take out most of their health. 4-5 stalkers will kill a medivac before it can go over the stalkers boosted. Considering 1 drop is worth at least 500 minerals and 100 gas in investment and army size, I would expect something roughly as costly to nullify them. This is in contrast to WoL, where 3 stalkers would dissuade a double drop...
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I see some of the major things not even being adressed.
The following issues I have recognized (from my personal point of view) in hots so far. So let me start with what has been discussed already.
Terran dropships:
a) possibility to always load up all the bio and carry it away safely from the battlefield as soon as the terran recognizes inferiority in the battle. Without any major drawbacks this allows the terran to just move out and to take big risks without being punished for a mistake there.
b) drop play; at the high skill tiers where terrans have the mechanics/skill and from now on will even more focus on multi location drops it is extremely unbalanced what it takes to defend these multi location drops (simultaniously) compared to what it takes to execute these. Especiall for PvT I see a major imbalance issue coming there due to the fact that terrans can just threaten all possible locations at the same time and a protoss army seems weaker and more abuseable the more it splits up. This is in fact quite abuseable especially the more terrans get used to multi dropship execution. And it is too easy to force a simple mistake of the opponent that results instantly into a terran win. (this also applies, but with a bit lesser weight, to ZvT). It is just too easy to force the opponent to split up all his army to defend 3-4 drop spots and then just boostdrop a major part of carried stuff back into the middle and attack one of these weak spots with split up armies with almost the entire force and crush it easily. It will almost result automatically in several situations into attacks that are impossible to defend against. I estimate that terran will benefit more from this imbalance the more time passes as they learn even more how to abuse and execute it perfectly while the opponent can in no way know what is the right decision to react to this at all and therefore will definitely do mistakes that in many times instantly loses him the game.
--- make it only usable once per dropship in total lifetime (but maybe extend the duration of effect a little).
Terran Mines:
a)absolutely misdesigned unit. Problem basically in TvZ. It can deny every possible harassment early to midgame with ease making it almost impossible to attack the terran without taking big risks. Boring microless unit. Once placed it takes extraordinary amounts of efforts to spot and kill all of those mines that have the costs of a single roach and can be easily replaced. While it does not only deny any early harassment it also continues to the midgame and is perfect against any air harassment (oracle, mutalisk, fenix). It is basically a game of luck to fly to the terran base as you take big losses without any chance to dodge when you try to harass the terran (hey I built all those mutalisk/fenix but I can't use them cause there might be 2 mines instantly killing half of my army).
b) mines in common battles: absolutely imbalanced to put 2-3 mines behind an attack and when you defend against these attacks the terran retreats 2-3 screen cm and pulls you into these mines that make you lose dozens of zealots/zerglings and instantly lose the game.
c) mines with dropships. Absolutely ridiculous how easy it is to do capital damage with almost no effort.
--- make (at least 2 of these 3 things) mines undropable, make mines only target ground, decrease mines splash damage alot and increase mines single target damage (this is what you want, stronger vs protoss units) noone wants an alround mine that can deny every enemy harass with minimal efforts and big potential damage to the harasser.
Protoss mothership core:
a)denies any ZvP harass in early game. Roach play to pressure the protoss wall has become obsolete without going totally all in (and the mothership doesnt help much vs total all ins with mass roach/ling, mass ling/bane or anything similar). It will just shoot down slowly any slow roach that is trying to make its way over the whole map. It once more forces the zerg into inactivity and decreases the variation of viable opening styles. It results in more boring 15min no rush games (if the protoss opts for) where 4 Base protoss deathball facerolls Zergarmy after 20-25 minutes.
b) allows more easy all ins for the protoss: in the opposite the MSC supports greatly all protoss all in strategies. 4 Gate with core even more hard to defend, 6 Gate even more hard to defend, sentry immortal all in even more hard to defend. One base blink stalker does not even need an obs anymore, etc.
c) zero risk/100%chance protoss harassment. just make a major attack and beam back once damage is done without taking the risks of losing a single unit.
---make mothership core teleport only 85% of units randomly (it leaves behind 1-2 out of 10 units randomly), make mothership core available later in the game, e.g. it requires council.
Protoss Oracle:
I am not sure about this unit, why does it have to be that strong and expensive? I can't say much about this unit yet but it seems for me too game deciding in its current state in many situations
--- reduce oracles building costs alot, decrease oracles damage alot, maybe introduce some other changes when doing this (another skill, more hitpoints, whatever).
Skytoss:
You say people don't dodge the charge up voidrays correctly yet. What difference does it make in battle if you fight them charged up or wait until they charge up while targeting your building and increase their overall damage therefore?
General Problem of skytoss: Zerg corruptor is armored and as one of the very few viable things of zerg vs air it just doesnt do its job correctly anymore.
--- make corruptor light instead of armored (then ghosts gonna be a problem tho), increase building time of void rays, increase protoss air upgrade costs (contrary to the reduction of the protoss ground upgrade costs) to take into account its strength.
Zerg Viper:
Seems to have too heavy impact into the battle in army vs army situations.
--- Cloud: reduce time of effect to 50%, reduce cost of energy to 75%
Zerg Mutalisk:
Seems too strong in certain situations (especially when taking into account my balance advices). Especially in ZvZ it is too much mutalisk based but also in the other matchups mutalisks seem way too strong in certain situations.
--- increase costs of mutalisk to 125/100
Zerg Swarmhost:
Unit seems actually well balanced. I don't like it still as it can't help you getting back from behind positions but greatly supports you in situations where you have the lead. Therefore totally fail designed (just as widow mines). Should be just removed from the game and replaced with aynthing else more suitable!
These are my current thoughts. The terran dropship, terran widow mine, protoss mothership core and protoss skytoss things are most urgent in my point of view.
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too much whining....
Speedvacs are a good thing for the game, this is exactly what sc2 needs, more action packed high apm units.
I play Z btw, not T so no bias here.
Also, even if certain things are OP, it really doesn't affect 99.9% of us here. We suck compared to those pros.
Enjoyed the games as I always do, but even more so.
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If medivas speed boost was energy based they could boost again immediatly after boosting first and they would be a lot harder to feedback. So if the energy cost is low enough it is not a nerf. It then would also mean that there is a point in upgrading cadeceus reactor. I somehow feel design wise it is better not to have cooldown abilities on a unit that also has energy and making it energy based would lead to more interessting gameplay.
Also the battlehelion should be changed in some way to make more sense. The unit has to unintuitive rules.
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I wonder why people havent whined about oracle so much. That unit is the definition of op. Guaranteed damage and op allins.
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Just make it so that Medvacs cannot load/unload while afterburner is activated, problem solved, action preserved.
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On March 18 2013 22:19 Arco wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 20:19 AxionSteel wrote:On March 18 2013 11:59 AIKfans87 wrote:On March 18 2013 11:46 Infinite Loop wrote:
This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting. No it was awful. Day9 was going on and on about how outrageously strong Hellbats were, when hardly anyone was even making them, and when they were made they were not deciding factors in the game. admittedly, even as a terran, the medivac boost made me cringe reguarly although after we got to the quarter finals, the standard of play shot up through the roof and we got so many awesome games I dunno what to think now. Definitely would wait a while before changing mines, though. Congratulations on getting trolled by Day[9], who has been doing this forever.
I wish people would still know what "troll" means.
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On March 19 2013 00:29 Luolis wrote:
I wonder why people havent whined about oracle so much. That unit is the definition of op. Guaranteed damage and op allins.
The definition of awesome and made of candy glass and protoss dreams. I am glad that protoss has a unit people fear, but also costs a ton of gas. All-ins come before solid, standard play, since standard play is based around dealing with all ins.
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On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
I agree, I think the medivac could use a much longer cooldown of the afterburners (possibly combined with a longer duration of the afterburners) so that terrans can either (a) drop into the opponents base very fast or (b) retreat from their opponents base very fast, but not both. Both sounds a bit too strong to me, though I don't have the necessary skills to judge this, just my opinion.
Also, one question: does an unburrowed widow mine has the same attack priority than any normal attacking unit? I watched Goody going mass widow mines recently and he could comfortably enclose the zerg army with a huge amount of widow mines while they were distracted with attacking the tank / thor, ignoring the widow mines in close proximity.
edit: or mostly ignoring, I cannot remember in exact detail. Though the units attacking the widow mines could've just been out of range to attack the other parts of the mech army.
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On March 19 2013 00:37 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. I agree, I think the medivac could use a much longer cooldown of the afterburners (possibly combined with a longer duration of the afterburners) so that terrans can either (a) drop into the opponents base very fast or (b) retreat from their opponents base very fast, but not both. Both sounds a bit too strong to me, though I don't have the necessary skills to judge this, just my opinion. Also, one question: does an unburrowed widow mine has the same attack priority than any normal attacking unit? I watched Goody going mass widow mines recently and he could comfortably enclose the zerg army with a huge amount of widow mines while they were distracted with attacking the tank / thor, ignoring the widow mines in close proximity. edit: or mostly ignoring, I cannot remember in exact detail. Though the units attacking the widow mines could've just been out of range to attack the other parts of the mech army.
Widow mines have a 19 attack priority, which means they don’t pull “agro” over other attacking units. Units treat them like moving workers and don’t fire on them.
I personally think Blizzard has a ton of options if they decide to ton down the medivac boost. I think a longer cool down would be the easiest and it should be a pretty reasonable amount of time. 20 seconds isn’t even one production cycle for any race. If a player scares off one drop, they should feel that they don’t have to deal with that drop again for a reasonable period of time.
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EPT
