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On March 18 2013 20:19 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 11:59 AIKfans87 wrote:On March 18 2013 11:46 Infinite Loop wrote:
This thread makes my head hurt.
I can't believe you all think you are such experts in game balance and design.
One tournament surely doesn't tell us everything we need to know about balance? From what I saw of MLG it was one of the most action packed and exciting tournaments I have seen in a long time. Yet everyone wants nerfs after one freaking tournament, give it some time to see how the game and new strategy's evolve.
In my opinion the Zerg and Protoss bias in the casting also has a lot to do with this problem we're having at the moment. So many balance complaints and subtle and also not so subtle stabs at the new terran units. I really believe casters should keep out of balance while casting especially when they have massive bias towards their own race. For better or worse so many people listen to the casters opinions and this seems to have a negative effect on the mindset of viewers.
I'm ranting I know but I'm honestly so sad/annoyed at the way the community handles themselves.
So it wasn't only me who got annoyed of all bias in the casting. No it was awful. Day9 was going on and on about how outrageously strong Hellbats were, when hardly anyone was even making them, and when they were made they were not deciding factors in the game. admittedly, even as a terran, the medivac boost made me cringe reguarly although after we got to the quarter finals, the standard of play shot up through the roof and we got so many awesome games I dunno what to think now. Definitely would wait a while before changing mines, though.
Congratulations on getting trolled by Day[9], who has been doing this forever.
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I really cannot comment on high/pro level play.... but WM seems to have a pretty devastating impact on low level play.
I'm a Gold/Plat level player (dropped to Gold when switched to Random) and I'm pretty much keeping away from multiplayer until things get a bit more stable, but I did play a few dozen games and for the life of me I do not understand how lower level players are expected to efficiently deal with widow mines. Few sprinkled mines, one mistake and - poof - there goes your army. It makes for some hilarious replays and personally I find it amusing as hell but in the long-term I really don't know that having it around is beneficial. To come back to that counter-play principle - using WM is a hell of a lot more fun than having to deal with them, and while at the pro level I'm sure everyone will adapt and things will get nicely balanced, the frustration levels in low leagues could become pretty high.
So anyway, what I personally would really like to see balance-wise is a change to WM which wouldn't impact high-level play but would be much more noticeable the lower you go. I don't know what that might be, perhaps the need to re-prime the mine after it fires, anything, as long as WM becomes a little bit less a burrow-and-forget unit which is easy to use as an attacker but a nightmare for the defender - speaking of course for us average and below-average players.
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On March 18 2013 21:14 Absentia wrote:
Arguing that aspects of terran aren't imbalanced because the best players at MLG were terrans isn't a valid argument.
Just because the best players play a particular race doesn't mean that aspects of that race aren't imbalanced.
You're absolutely right. But it does mean that the only empirical evidence for it is worthless. Without evidence, the idea that the game currently favors Terran is just an undefended assertion.
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Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote:
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had.
Right. Because that wasn't the case in SC1. Where Siege Tanks were basically gods against anything on the ground, and coupled with Spider Mines and their meatshield Vultures, could tear apart anything walking. And the same Factory that produced STs and Vultures could also produce the single best GtA unit ever, which in decent numbers was capable of effectively dealing with virtually any air threat, from Mutalisks to Guardians to Carriers to BCs. All while not being flying themselves, and was thus not subject to being attacked by dedicated AtA units.
No, extremely versatile units has never been a hallmark of the Terran race...
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote:
Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had.
We saw that widow mines, and medivacs can be dealt with by good map presence and micro. So let's just nerf them so it's easier to deal with something. Make the game easier. Like the guy above pointed out this is exactly why at the end of wings it was 3 hatch zerg every single game. Oh, and viewership dropped really really low. So apparently everyone is kind of tired of this everyone gets a free ticket to macro heavily.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote:
Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had.
Medivac boost brought very good entertainment this MLG, unlike the last 20 WoL tournaments, the build up to the finals was fantastic, but there are always those that hate nice things among the ocean that loves them.
WMs need to shoot air because without them mech is complete trashcan vs muta switches, thors were, are and will be horrible vs mutas, and that's just one major reason.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote:
Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
It's more other race players wanting to nerf other races instead. The game hasn't been out for 1 week yet. The sample size of MLG is not only small, but completly populated for korean terrans and no foreigner terrans to balance the stats (check the winrate of the only foreigner terran on TvZ). So instead of bitching, wait to make a more proper and informed post about why speedvacs need a nerf instead of lololtoostronk.
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I don't like the Mutalisk changes.
Mutalisks got a slight speed boost, but more importantly heal 3x as fast as in WoL (and compared to any other Zerg unit). So Muta harass is improved since they take less damage from being quicker, and heal so fast as to almost negate any pot shots you manage to hit before they flee. In BW and WoL, you could always value every single extra turret or marine shot you got on a Mutalisk because you knew they would get worn down and you would eventually defeat them. Now they just shrug off a few hits like nothing. Even Widow Mine splash damage is hardly an issue. A Zerg unit heals 13hp pretty fast. That's the equivalent of a Muta healing about 40.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote:
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
Because irradiate doesn't exist in SC2 and thors are one of the worst new units they've ever come up with
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For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments?
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On March 18 2013 22:24 baba44713 wrote:
I really cannot comment on high/pro level play.... but WM seems to have a pretty devastating impact on low level play.
I'm a Gold/Plat level player (dropped to Gold when switched to Random) and I'm pretty much keeping away from multiplayer until things get a bit more stable, but I did play a few dozen games and for the life of me I do not understand how lower level players are expected to efficiently deal with widow mines. Few sprinkled mines, one mistake and - poof - there goes your army. It makes for some hilarious replays and personally I find it amusing as hell but in the long-term I really don't know that having it around is beneficial. To come back to that counter-play principle - using WM is a hell of a lot more fun than having to deal with them, and while at the pro level I'm sure everyone will adapt and things will get nicely balanced, the frustration levels in low leagues could become pretty high.
So anyway, what I personally would really like to see balance-wise is a change to WM which wouldn't impact high-level play but would be much more noticeable the lower you go. I don't know what that might be, perhaps the need to re-prime the mine after it fires, anything, as long as WM becomes a little bit less a burrow-and-forget unit which is easy to use as an attacker but a nightmare for the defender - speaking of course for us average and below-average players.
But you might also attribute that to you trying to apply tactics and army compositions which are tailored to better players.
I, for one, always stayed away from Bio because I lack the proper multitasking for harass and aggressive play. Widow Mines only give me one more reason to stay away from it.
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote:
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
Mech only has thors for anti-air and they suck against most air units.
Making mines only hit ground targets wouldn't really change the bio + mine style that we all saw so much, but it would cripple mech.
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On March 18 2013 22:36 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote:
Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok. It's more other race players wanting to nerf other races instead. The game hasn't been out for 1 week yet. The sample size of MLG is not only small, but completly populated for korean terrans and no foreigner terrans to balance the stats (check the winrate of the only foreigner terran on TvZ). So instead of bitching, wait to make a more proper and informed post about why speedvacs need a nerf instead of lololtoostronk.
If anything, they should provide ways for the protoss and zerg to deal with the medivacs, rather than nerf an awesome ability. Personally, I think they should remove Stalker’s ability to blink up cliffs(they can still blink down, just not up) and get the research time back down to something reasonable. Blink being used to all in is bad for the game, but blink being used to shoot down turbo drops is awesome. Making blink come earlier would be awesome even if it can’t all in with it. And get vipers down to lair tech and make it so they can’t yank massive units as far(so not to break colossi forever).
They need to make it so we counter micro with micro, rather than nerfing the ability.
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On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments?
So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time.
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Just an FYI - raven siege tank hellion viking widow mine is probably the strongest positional composition in the game and will make a huge comeback as soon as people figure out how to deal with speedivacs 
Siege tanks never went anywhere. They just don't fit into the current meta. As people learn how to deal with drops and drop play (current TvZ meta is ling bling muta material) they will be back and with additional firepower because you essentially get a free transition into late game terran air as a result of going mech now.
150 energy ravens are incredibly deadly.
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On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time.
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
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I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me.
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On March 18 2013 23:25 ThirdDegree wrote:
I would actually like to see a change to the medivac speed. Maybe severely lower it's turning acceleration while boosting so you can't just zip all over the place. I don't think it needs a nerf for balance reasons, but I like the idea of risk vs reward. As of now if you are paying attention to drops, you can dance in and out with no risk at all. I always thought it was awesome in a pvt when you'd see stalkers sort of hiding and wait for the medivac to get in to the base before blinking in and sniping it. Without the risk, it sort of loses some excitement for me.
I have been thinking this as well. I don’t think it would be a huge different to how the unit is used, but would make it so the other races could punish sloppy use of the boost. Plus it just makes sense that the medicvac would control differently while boosted. So instead of charging in, seeing a group of stalkers and zipping out with only taking one shot; the medivac might take 5-7 shots before escaping.
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EPT
