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On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time.
There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced.
Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with.
On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave.
If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish".
Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units.
The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them.
The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons.
P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough.
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On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough.
Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters.
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On March 19 2013 01:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:19 Vindicare605 wrote:Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8197652564David Kim: HoTS Thoughts 3/18/2013 Just wanted to let you know that our design team is watching every major match carefully and will continue doing so.
Some things we're noticing are:
- The super aggressive play is turning out to be really fun to watch.
- Nobody is close to figuring the game out yet.
- A few players are really changing up their play and having completely different results than what's expected by the majority.
- Some of the initial balance concerns do seem to be continuing in games whereas the more creative players aren't struggling as much against them.
Some things we're thinking of going forward:
- We'll try our best to not be too quick to make judgments on things that are allowing players to play a much more aggressive game. For example, yes Medivacs look strong but it's forcing even the opponents to play aggressive and the constant action throughout the game is looking to be really fun to watch.
- We'll continue watching all the pro and community concerns, but keep in mind we'd really like the game to settle before we step in and make a move. Awesome, I love DK for this. I hope they consider boosting the other races agressive abilities if it is necessary, rather than nerfing medivacs. More scouting, more agression and less turtling. Give protoss cheaper warp prisim speed out of the cyber core and zerg cheaper drops. Make the best defense a good offense.
Great stuff by Blizzard. I was hoping they would leave the game alone for a while, rather than nerf-jerk in response to the community. Our tendency to whine and give our personal opinions credence means that we should usually be ignored.
As to solutions to problems, if there are real problems, I have no idea. My personal wish for the longest time has been a slightly buffed Stalker (i.e. more Dragoon like in its effect). But, more seriously, I am happy to leave it to Browder and Kim.
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On March 19 2013 02:59 Ercster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 21:30 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote:
For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these):
Increase their cost
Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time
Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds
Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? What kind of stupid fucking logic is that? Why do I need to have "credentials" in order to give my opinion? That's right, I don't.
Do you want to answer the second question.
You act like you know so much about this game and I'm only trying to figure out people like you. You propose such specific changes and act like you know so much that's all.
And I guess you are a diamond ish Zerg is that correct?
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 09:29 Infinite Loop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 02:59 Ercster wrote:On March 18 2013 21:30 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote:
For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these):
Increase their cost
Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time
Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds
Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? What kind of stupid fucking logic is that? Why do I need to have "credentials" in order to give my opinion? That's right, I don't. Do you want to answer the second question. You act like you know so much about this game and I'm only trying to figure out people like you. You propose such specific changes and act like you know so much that's all. And I guess you are a diamond ish Zerg is that correct?
He didn't give an opinion, he made statements of fact and then called it his opinion. "Corrupters need a buff" is a statement of fact that is either right or wrong.
The relevant question here is why anyone should care what he thinks or says. The answer is that either he has credentials of some kind that are sufficient to convince people that he is an authority on the subject, or he has an extremely well laid out argument that explains, step by step, why these changes are good and why other solutions aren't better. If he has neither of these things, then he isn't saying anything useful or worthwhile, just like almost everyone under the sun does on a regular basis. You can either ignore him or discuss it with him, but demanding credentials when he didn't offer any is kind of useless. If he had them, he probably would have offered them in some form. If we demanded credentials from every person who posted in any thread ever, these forums would be nothing but people with credentials discussing things and everyone else exclusively reading or asking questions that we hope they would answer.
Some people might like it that way, but it doesn't make for a very pleasant community for your average person.
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I feel so sorry for terrans.
After such a long time being so weak towards the end of WoL, now they finally get a decent buff in the form of medivacs.....and already people are complaining about it....oh Terrans..
If there is no afterburner, what does Terran have? Hellbats, I rarely saw them in IEM and latest MLG. WM is too random, damaging friendly units also.... and smart people can easily bait WM shots....
If they take out afterburners, I would say 80%+ of terrans will simply stop SC2 altogether or switch races
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On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote:
Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had.
Because terran has to be well rounded because it's very hard to tech switch into something completely different. When a terran goes mech, they just go mech, they don't scout their opponent then decide to make mech. Sometimes, but it's very rare that a terran will react to an opponents build as opposed to just doing what the hell they want, and that's fine, their race is built that way. Obviously good terrans scout and react, but still, a terran who goes 3/3 bio won't stop making marines because he sees infestors because it's not easy to just make 3/3 air units out of nowhere.
On March 18 2013 22:41 Crisium wrote:
I don't like the Mutalisk changes.
Mutalisks got a slight speed boost, but more importantly heal 3x as fast as in WoL (and compared to any other Zerg unit). So Muta harass is improved since they take less damage from being quicker, and heal so fast as to almost negate any pot shots you manage to hit before they flee. In BW and WoL, you could always value every single extra turret or marine shot you got on a Mutalisk because you knew they would get worn down and you would eventually defeat them. Now they just shrug off a few hits like nothing. Even Widow Mine splash damage is hardly an issue. A Zerg unit heals 13hp pretty fast. That's the equivalent of a Muta healing about 40.
Keep in mind the other improved threats out there. Widow mines, Hunker Seeker Missile improved, Marines with better Medivacs, Phoenix speed and range buff, cheaper DT shrine meaning more obtainable Archons, mass recall to bring an army back to defend mutas and photon overcharge.
I think muta buff is completely reasonable because WoL was a turtle fest for zerg, there was no reason to build mutas if you could turtle your way to a 20 min victory with BL/infestor. With the new units in HotS, why would zerg do anything different? well they can, because now mutas are buffed so they don't have to rely on BL/infestor to win games, it gives power back to muta builds which were always exciting to watch.
Let's continue to watch and see how HotS progresses, there is no use whining about anything until we see more games, and even then, in BW when something was imba it had to be figured out, QQ'ing and hoping blizzard would patch was not an option back then.
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The generall approach to HotS balance as compared to WoL has been giving each race some really powerful harass options, and some really powerful anti-harass options. So far, I like the results.
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On March 19 2013 10:07 Swordland wrote:
I feel so sorry for terrans.
After such a long time being so weak towards the end of WoL, now they finally get a decent buff in the form of medivacs.....and already people are complaining about it....oh Terrans..
If there is no afterburner, what does Terran have? Hellbats, I rarely saw them in IEM and latest MLG. WM is too random, damaging friendly units also.... and smart people can easily bait WM shots....
If they take out afterburners, I would say 80%+ of terrans will simply stop SC2 altogether or switch races
I don't think afterburners will ever get totally scrapped because of things like the muta speed buff. You simply can't give all the buffs the other races got and expect Terran to keep up without something else. I think it's a matter of figuring out what the something else has to be, but at this point we're simply seeing an issue of something that is easy to use offensively and defending against it is going to take some time.
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Everyone QQing about medivac speed boost...how about we let the pros figure it out in the next 3 or 4 months or so. Often drop plays become so strong when the zerg or protoss completely ignore static defense. Maybe if they start making more static D, it might change? Who knows. Broodwar was a game of static D and constant aggression, iirc.
The first MLG HotS champion was a zerg, after all.
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On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough.
I was unaware the common sense was a substitute for playing the game and allowed you to provide such amazing tips as "build cannons to stop turbo boosted medivacs". All your tips truly show that you barely play or watch the game in any way.
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I got ravaged by drops today but good for them for not giving in to the butthurt people who aren't trying to adapt. I lost to drops but that is because I opened robo even after scouting gas, which was a mistake. I should have opened stargate.
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On March 19 2013 10:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. I was unaware the common sense was a substitute for playing the game and allowed you to provide such amazing tips as "build cannons to stop turbo boosted medivacs". All your tips truly show that you barely play or watch the game in any way.
Really, man? Really? You should recognize Rabiator by now, as well as me, and we should recognize you. It's quite obvious we all play and watch the game, even if our suggestions are sometimes crap...
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On March 19 2013 10:02 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 09:29 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 19 2013 02:59 Ercster wrote:On March 18 2013 21:30 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote:
For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these):
Increase their cost
Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time
Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds
Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? What kind of stupid fucking logic is that? Why do I need to have "credentials" in order to give my opinion? That's right, I don't. Do you want to answer the second question. You act like you know so much about this game and I'm only trying to figure out people like you. You propose such specific changes and act like you know so much that's all. And I guess you are a diamond ish Zerg is that correct? He didn't give an opinion, he made statements of fact and then called it his opinion. "Corrupters need a buff" is a statement of fact that is either right or wrong. The relevant question here is why anyone should care what he thinks or says. The answer is that either he has credentials of some kind that are sufficient to convince people that he is an authority on the subject, or he has an extremely well laid out argument that explains, step by step, why these changes are good and why other solutions aren't better. If he has neither of these things, then he isn't saying anything useful or worthwhile, just like almost everyone under the sun does on a regular basis. You can either ignore him or discuss it with him, but demanding credentials when he didn't offer any is kind of useless. If he had them, he probably would have offered them in some form. If we demanded credentials from every person who posted in any thread ever, these forums would be nothing but people with credentials discussing things and everyone else exclusively reading or asking questions that we hope they would answer. Some people might like it that way, but it doesn't make for a very pleasant community for your average person.
I think you didn't quite get where I was coming from and that's understandable. I chose him at random of all the people complaining about balance. I really don't understand how people are calling for Nerfs after such few professional games is all and I was frustrated when I asked him those questions. All I wanted was to see where these people are coming from and question why they think they know so much about balance. If you had seen my previous post in this thread my questions might have made more sense.
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On March 05 2013 10:10 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote:
its not that speedvacs are OP,
the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it
once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. And how is that any different than blink?
Blink requires time and resources. You have to choose to incorporate that into your build if you want to use it in a timing. I'd be fine with medivac speed if it were an upgrade. I don't think it should inherently just come with your medivacs.
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I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol
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That's pretty decent I guess, I'm loving this new approach by Blizzard. :D
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote:
I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol
Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten.
People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow.
It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time.
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I'm glad they're not gonna do anything drastic yet. Wait a few more tournaments.
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In Korean vs Korean non mirror matchups, Terran had 4 wins, Toss 3 wins, Zerg 4 wins. Looking at wins where Koreans beat foreigners is kind of silly I think. Also, the games were very much more fun than WOL, that I think is fairly indisputable.
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EPT
