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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 11:36 Iron_ wrote:
In Korean vs Korean non mirror matchups, Terran had 4 wins, Toss 3 wins, Zerg 4 wins. Looking at wins where Koreans beat foreigners is kind of silly I think. Also, the games were very much more fun than WOL, that I think is fairly indisputable.
The game is new, WoL games were crazy wonky at first and were very fun and interesting before people figured anything out too. This time we have people who have all the experience of WoL practice with some major changes thrown in. Of course the games are gonna look awesome at first, regardless of how it will be in the long run.
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On March 18 2013 15:33 Topzerg wrote:
Balance is a joke and zerg matchups are boring.
ZvT and ZvP is unplayable late game. ZvZ is mutas vs mutas 99% of the time. Back to WoL til they fix the bullshit!
Zerg matchups are boring? Talk about bias. Life played incredible ZvX games in the mlg. zerg always need more time to figure things out, I suggest you guys cut the balance whining, the game isn't even out for a week. it's like no matter what blizz and david kim do you guys arent satisfied. Also, it blows my mind that someone would call hots zerg boring right after WoL finished with the most imbalanced and boring games we've ever seen.
Your post would apply more to late WoL. Observe:
Balance is a joke an zerg matchups are boring.
TvZ and PvZ is unplayable late game. ZvZ is infestors vs infestors 99% of the time. Now in hots they've fixed the bullshit!
I don't know what kind of warped mind prefers watching infestor bl rape opponents every other game.
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On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote:
I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time.
Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise.
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History repeating itself. Terran being figured out faster than the other 2 races, despite being the most flexible race. Zerg remains the race with the most hidden potential, which hadn't nearly been figured out at the end of WoL, and now they're getting new toys. Protoss derp derp as always.
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range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesen't mean it's balanced.
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Does anyone think blizzard would say "we're seeing some nice conservative and safe play." At least right now it seems opposed to their plans for HOTS. I feel like if the game isn't always being sped up they aren't satisfied.
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On March 19 2013 09:29 Infinite Loop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 02:59 Ercster wrote:On March 18 2013 21:30 Infinite Loop wrote:On March 18 2013 20:12 Ercster wrote:
For the medivac boost, I think they should increase the cooldown time for it (from 20 seconds to 40), then you can't boost in, drop, do damage, and boost out. You have to decide beforehand if you want to use it to get in or save it for when you leave. It would make static defense better against the drops.
For the widow mines, I think a few things need to be done (maybe not all of these):
Increase their cost
Make them require a tech lab, so you can't produce 2 at a time
Increase the burrow time to 4 seconds and drilling claws to 2 seconds
Make them easier to detect like they become visible when they're on cooldown
I can't really say much about the oracle yet, but maybe something small like increasing the mana use to 3/s from 2/s.
Corrupters need a buff. I haven't really figured out what yet, though, but it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered against the other 2 races air units. What credentials do you have to suggest these changes to this game? How many games of HOTS have you seen professionally played to determine these changes, do you think that's enough? What kind of stupid fucking logic is that? Why do I need to have "credentials" in order to give my opinion? That's right, I don't. Do you want to answer the second question. You act like you know so much about this game and I'm only trying to figure out people like you. You propose such specific changes and act like you know so much that's all. And I guess you are a diamond ish Zerg is that correct?
I act like I have an opinion and am expressing it. I didn't say that those needed to be the fixes (minus the corrupters, which I did also say "it seems like Zergs anti-air is underpowered), I said I think these should be fixed. It isn't me displaying extensive knowledge about the game, rather observed information from my own games, player streams, and tournaments. Also, letting people know my in-game skill can only bring negativity to the conversation, so I choose to leave it out for that reason. As for my race, I play Protoss and Zerg. I get bored playing the same race constantly, so I switch between the 2 regularly (although, I probably play more Zerg than Protoss).
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The core problem with Protoss in all facets was, and still is, their immobility. Mid / late game Protoss has extremely limited ways to defend multiple locations at once against drops or multi-pronged attacks. The mothership core did not solve the problem and neither does the oracle. Warp-ins are not enough to defend 2+ medivac drops and static defense is easily circumvented on most maps or is ineffective because marauders can kill cannons with no losses with medivac support.
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On March 05 2013 09:21 opterown wrote:
cue forum warriors balance whining and reverse-balance whining! haha i think it is too early to say anything, myself
IMO devs should wait a month or two between balance patches (unless something is like super crazy wrong cough*5 rax reapers*cough). Gives the players time to truly explore the units and figure out exactly how they work. Otherwise players are relying on both their skill as a player and the skill of the developer.
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On March 19 2013 11:42 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:36 Iron_ wrote:
In Korean vs Korean non mirror matchups, Terran had 4 wins, Toss 3 wins, Zerg 4 wins. Looking at wins where Koreans beat foreigners is kind of silly I think. Also, the games were very much more fun than WOL, that I think is fairly indisputable. The game is new, WoL games were crazy wonky at first and were very fun and interesting before people figured anything out too. This time we have people who have all the experience of WoL practice with some major changes thrown in. Of course the games are gonna look awesome at first, regardless of how it will be in the long run.
Yeah, that is a fair point. Although, the initial maps on WOL were tiny which was a strong incentive to aggressive one base play. In HOTS, thus far, we see that trend irrespective of the map. Of course, the other reason, apart from generally taking advantage of a game with broader horizons, is the fatigue effect from a more or less figured out WOL (i.e. going a little crazy and trying out all kinds of mad and fun stuff in a way that was either not possible in WOL or was easily punished).
Whether this trend continues is, as you say, a matter for the long run.
Of course, if it does not, there is always LOTV. 
Personally, though, I enjoyed watching MLG. It is the most fun watching SC2 I have had in a long time. It has made me think of buying and playing HOTS - something I decided against as I thought I would not have the time this year. I'll only be able to play sem-regularly, but I figure I may be able to mess about in bronze/silver, take advantage of unranked games, and indulge in some 2v2 with an old friend with whom I used to do regular 2v2 in WOL (oh, and the campaign too, of course).
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On March 19 2013 11:13 Thorrissey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:10 forsooth wrote:On March 05 2013 10:03 Iranon wrote:On March 05 2013 09:36 Cyro wrote:On March 05 2013 09:26 SoOJuuu wrote:On March 05 2013 09:16 Lunareste wrote:On March 05 2013 09:12 SoOJuuu wrote:
its not that speedvacs are OP,
the fact that it doesnt use energy does. It would be like stim without the damage....
no risk to not use it
once again blizzard doesnt understand. [insert idra past comment with the tire iron] Why is this inherently bad? Saying Medivacs shouldn't be able to use Afterburners without cost is like saying that Blinking your Stalkers should cost shields. Units having useful abilities isn't a bad thing for the game, especially when their uses will eventually lead to differences in player skill. no using blink does have an effect, you have to remove one of your guys from battle for X second, you lose dps. There is a trade there. There is no trade for boosting medivacs. They just go. 0 trade off. They are stuck on the cooldown so that for 12 seconds after the boost ends, they cannot boost again. There's your trade-off. Having medivacs that are faster than normal sometimes is strictly better than medivacs that are always normal speed. I don't think you understand what a trade-off is. Medivacs that are faster than normal some of the time are certainly worse than medivacs that can be faster than normal on-demand anytime you want, sure, but that's completely beside the point. It's an ability with no drawbacks. Whether or not you think it's too strong, you can't deny that fact. To make it even clearer, suppose the afterburners was a passive ability that just triggered on its own, completely at random and out of your control every so often. Those erratic medivacs are clearly worse than the current ones, but are just as clearly better than Wings of Liberty medivacs, albeit better in awkward ways. And how is that any different than blink? Blink requires time and resources. You have to choose to incorporate that into your build if you want to use it in a timing. I'd be fine with medivac speed if it were an upgrade. I don't think it should inherently just come with your medivacs.
^Thank you for trying to reason with him, and for providing some explanation.
The amount of stupidity in this forum is overwhelming. So much whine and few well explained arguments. I just read 20 posts about how Blink is directly comparable to Medvac Afterburner.
They are extremely different abilities and here are a few reasons why:
Upfront Costs:
Blink: In the midgame, twilight is deviation from the "standard" build order (until 1-1 upgrades completed). The cost of blink is the sum of the cost of twilight + upgrade, and the time-cost of blink is the build time of twilight + research time.
Medvac Afterburner: Arguably costs starport + starport build time (Arguable since starport is standard in midgame whether going bio or mech).
Returns:
Blink: Can make army extremely more effective, opens up harass potential, but costly in terms of APM. Diminishing returns in late game.
Afterburners: Extremely effective in all stages of game, almost no APM cost (Queue drop, ignite afterburners, watch drop, ignite afterburner + click return path, roughly same APM cost as medvacs from WoL).
So for those of you that think you can compare Blink to Afterburners, did you consider A) The monetary or temporal costs? B) The extreme disparity in terms of APM required to use either ability?
Regardless of all that pointless discussion I don't think anything is OP (at least yet). Ignite afterburners are good for the game, likewise the oracle. I like that they are trying to expand all races harass potential however I wish they would revise the nydus worm 
Why doesn't everyone just calm down for a little bit and let blizzard get good sample sets? No need to grab the pitchforks and demand the Nerf Hammer just because you lose to a strategy frequently. Blizzard will quickly detect dominant strategies from high level play. If you are frequently losing to the same strategies well guess what, you either A) Aren't adjusting your strategy properly or learning from mistakes, or B) Are playing better opponents than you.
Chill balance whiners...
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Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote:
Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt.
The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't.
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On March 19 2013 13:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote:
Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt. The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't.
DTs, a few zealots warped in on the fly, and a cannon or two (anymore would be silly and two is pushing it). If you spaced out the DT warp-ins, you could hold it until your stalkers blink in. I think the hard part would be fitting a DT shrine into the build. I'd like to see a huge match up shake up though, so who knows what might happen
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 13:06 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:03 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote:
Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt. The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't. DTs, a few zealots warped in on the fly, and a cannon or two (anymore would be silly and two is pushing it). If you spaced out the DT warp-ins, you could hold it until your stalkers blink in. I think the hard part would be fitting a DT shrine into the build. I'd like to see a huge match up shake up though, so who knows what might happen
It might work, dunno, I don't feel like it's the best answer though. I'm experimenting with oracles to defend drops, if you manage to get it near the dropship before it has more than 1-2 units out, the pulsar beam will kill everything as they unload before they can do anything. Get a phoenix or two with it and they'll kill the dropships.
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On March 19 2013 13:08 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:06 MattBarry wrote:On March 19 2013 13:03 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote:
Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt. The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't. DTs, a few zealots warped in on the fly, and a cannon or two (anymore would be silly and two is pushing it). If you spaced out the DT warp-ins, you could hold it until your stalkers blink in. I think the hard part would be fitting a DT shrine into the build. I'd like to see a huge match up shake up though, so who knows what might happen It might work, dunno, I don't feel like it's the best answer though. I'm experimenting with oracles to defend drops, if you manage to get it near the dropship before it has more than 1-2 units out, the pulsar beam will kill everything as they unload before they can do anything. Get a phoenix or two with it and they'll kill the dropships.
I'm willing to bet stargate play is the most efficient option. But I'd like to see DTs be put in a position to also be a viable option so there's not just one way to play the matchup. I also really like DTs lore wise and gameplay wise
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On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced.
To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now.
Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:11 MattBarry wrote:On March 19 2013 13:08 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 13:06 MattBarry wrote:On March 19 2013 13:03 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 12:56 MattBarry wrote:
Perhaps DTs to defend drops? If you go templar tech, the DT shrine isn't so massive of an investment anymore and they can form archons after defending drops. We Protoss will just think outside the box and adapt. The issue isn't single drop ships so much, which DT's are great for defense against, but when they do 2-3 dropships or doom drops to a single location. Terran will definitely use a scan for that, and just one DT won't do much even if they somehow don't. DTs, a few zealots warped in on the fly, and a cannon or two (anymore would be silly and two is pushing it). If you spaced out the DT warp-ins, you could hold it until your stalkers blink in. I think the hard part would be fitting a DT shrine into the build. I'd like to see a huge match up shake up though, so who knows what might happen It might work, dunno, I don't feel like it's the best answer though. I'm experimenting with oracles to defend drops, if you manage to get it near the dropship before it has more than 1-2 units out, the pulsar beam will kill everything as they unload before they can do anything. Get a phoenix or two with it and they'll kill the dropships. I'm willing to bet stargate play is the most efficient option. But I'd like to see DTs be put in a position to also be a viable option so there's not just one way to play the matchup. I also really like DTs lore wise and gameplay wise
I was really hoping for Blizzard to spread out the new toys more for Protoss. All they did was spam on the Stargate. Was hoping that they would give DT Shrine more love. There's always LOTV ^_^
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On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now.
BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years.
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On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote:
I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise.
Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates.
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On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years.
The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience.
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