EPTOn March 19 2013 14:41 Rabiator wrote:
Oh? So it is the mapmakers fault that we dont have gold mineral bases on maps anymore and it is their fault as well that we dont have cliff positions overlooking bases anymore?
Many of the balance problems are based in one general gameplay decision made by Blizzard: the increased economy and production speed boosts. IF the economy was so small that those 4 Medivacs of the doom drop would be hard to replace then the risk of making such a drop would be far greater and equal to the gain. Since you can mass-produce the Medivacs from a reactored Starport it isnt that much of an investment. The same is true for Infestors which only became a problem when people started making 25+ of them and spamming the whole battle with the much-too-cheap Infested Terrans. So the long term solution isnt really to nerf the Medivac boost but rather to get rid of economic and production speed boosts.
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 14:19 aksfjh wrote:
The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care.
On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:
It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features.
Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void.
Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit.
Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop.
On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:
The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience.
On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:
BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years.
On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:
To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now.
On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced.
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced.
To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now.
BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years.
The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience.
It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features.
Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void.
On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote:
As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed.
As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed.
Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit.
On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:
Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters.
On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:
There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced.
Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with.
If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish".
Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units.
The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them.
The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons.
P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough.
On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:
Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM.
You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time.
On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:
Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply!
Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though).
Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design.
On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:
Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third.
This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent.
On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:
[quote]
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
[quote]
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent.
Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third.
This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply!
Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though).
On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW.
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW.
Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design.
Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM.
You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time.
There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced.
Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with.
On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:
Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases.
The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave.
On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:
Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply!
Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though).
Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design.
On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:
Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third.
This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent.
On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:
[quote]
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
[quote]
Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg.
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent.
Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third.
This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac.
Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply!
Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though).
On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW.
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW.
Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design.
Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases.
The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave.
If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish".
Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units.
The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them.
The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons.
P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough.
Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters.
Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop.
The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care.
Oh? So it is the mapmakers fault that we dont have gold mineral bases on maps anymore and it is their fault as well that we dont have cliff positions overlooking bases anymore?
Many of the balance problems are based in one general gameplay decision made by Blizzard: the increased economy and production speed boosts. IF the economy was so small that those 4 Medivacs of the doom drop would be hard to replace then the risk of making such a drop would be far greater and equal to the gain. Since you can mass-produce the Medivacs from a reactored Starport it isnt that much of an investment. The same is true for Infestors which only became a problem when people started making 25+ of them and spamming the whole battle with the much-too-cheap Infested Terrans. So the long term solution isnt really to nerf the Medivac boost but rather to get rid of economic and production speed boosts.
There's a lot of issues that can be addressed with units and maps. I'm merely pointing out that some biases exist outside of Blizzard that greatly affect balance. Somewhere along the line, mapmakers decided they would give advantages to certain races and leave others out, like giving Zergs a safe spot for overlords in the early game, while intentionally leaving out tight chokes along main attack paths. A lot of blame goes to Blizzard when some of it should be shared with other portions, like community reactions, mapmakers, and tournament hosters.
With the first, look at this last MLG for a prime example of community overreaction, even from casters. Korean Terrans outplay foreign Ps and Zs and it's suddenly a "no brainer" that medivacs are OP? I already touched on the mapmakers. As for tournament organizers, they have the ability (and responsibility) to pick unorthodox maps, yet we often see the same maps turned 30° to 60° or with an expansion added/removed.
