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On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM.
Well, it's not something only Life can do. It's just that he is the only one who can do it at his tier of skill(Mvp, Flash,(MC?) and Life).
I've been practising it for some time, and sure it's hard to do, but it's definitly NOT impossible.
(NOTE: i play at highmaster/low GM level, steadily improving :D)
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On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote:
To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said.
how will a casual feel when he has to manually send every worker to gas / minerals?
how will casual feel when he grabs his bunch of marries and sees that oh wait, i can only select 12??!? WTF?
1a2a3a4s is a bit harder than 1a or f2 a
Please stop embarrassing yourself.
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On March 19 2013 22:02 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM. Well, it's not something only Life can do. It's just that he is the only one who can do it at his tier of skill(Mvp, Flash,(MC?) and Life). I've been practising it for some time, and sure it's hard to do, but it's definitly NOT impossible. (NOTE: i play at highmaster/low GM level, steadily improving :D)
Well he is the only zerg pro-player that can hold off 14 blue-flame hellions with only lings.(Last,Mvp)
With just pure ling-queen micro.
The only guy to split muta against widow mines and pull back muta individual against marines.
The reason why i think Flash lost is because he was focusing too much on WM usage and lack of scouting.
And also not using the 8/8/8.
They aren't the be-all unit.
He needed to incorporate siege tanks into his composition.
Frankly speaking,Bio+Mines are supposed to do well against Muta+Lings.
But Life adapted well and split ling to defuse mines to counter them and also keeping track of WMs planted in the map. and slowly disposed them with lings+overseer.
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On March 19 2013 22:01 CimonTheStoic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 01:52 nojok wrote:
I just had a random idea, maybe it's totally wrong, but why not make the boost forcing the medivacs to go in a straight line & can't drop/pick units? They will still be very powerful but more risky if you do it blindly and it would require more skill to be able to drop exactly where you want. interesting. would be fun to play with.
terrible idea. why would you want to drastically reduce that amount of micro possible? And how the hell would this be more funt o play with then dropships that can zip around and drop wherever you need them? all the people crying about medivacs are the same people who were too stubborn to even learn how to deal with them in WOL. you know who you are. people were STILL complaining on the ladder in WOL when I would drop them all the way up until the end
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On March 19 2013 21:52 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM. Forgot that Mutas are much better then before, especially if the terran doesn't build widow mines?! Can't believe you zergies are still complaining about balance when we haven't got any proof that the balance is off in any matchup.
I am not complaining about balance.
Just saying that Flash needed Siege tanks against Life +1/+1 baneling bust.
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As a player who is getting absolutely butt-fucked by the new Medivacs, I understand a lot of the unhappiness about this move.
But personally, I'm pretty happy to let the game develop a little bit. Let them get some more data and maybe another tournament of the highest level professionals to see what's up.
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Game 1 Flash vs Innovation was one of the best, if not the best, game I've ever seen in SC2. . . and I've watched every tournament since the game was released.
I'd rather them just buff drop defense of protoss and zerg. Faster medivacs = increased skill cap for every race obviously
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 19 2013 22:31 blacksheepwall wrote:
As a player who is getting absolutely butt-fucked by the new Medivacs, I understand a lot of the unhappiness about this move.
But personally, I'm pretty happy to let the game develop a little bit. Let them get some more data and maybe another tournament of the highest level professionals to see what's up.
yeah, just stock up on your KY man, them medivacs will keep coming back for more 
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I actually think the only matchup where the new medivacs are a problem is TvT. Watch Flash vs Innovation. Doom drops on both sides completely decided one of the games-I forget which one, but there were several drops of 5+ medivacs. Honestly, if Life and MC can easily deflect boosted drops, the other top tier players will quickly imitate them, and the metagame will evolve from there. Both Phoenixes and Mutalisks are fast enough to endanger medivacs, even when boosted.
I'd like to see Protoss using the warp prism for harassment more often, as well as more nydus play. All ins aside, setting up nydus worms in several locations allows for unbelievable mobility for even roach hydra off creep, and two or three warp prisms could send zealots in to a natural and third simultaneously, with little to no warning, against Terran at least. I'm sure there are good reasons why we don't see either of these used, but I'll voice the opinion anyway.
At the moment, the only imbalance I see is that swarm hosts are of extremely limited usefulness. Aside from that, skytoss may be a problem if zergs can't find a way to counter it, but let's give them that time first. From watching MLG, the highest quality games seemed to be decided by either skill level or new strats beating old strats, either of which is much better than watching late WoL games where one side just turtled until they won, with no real interesting play. I'm happy with where HotS is going.
In terms of changes....why doesn't the medivac cooldown start after the ability ends? Just a thought.
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On March 05 2013 09:56 SolidZeal wrote:
I think the game is looking really healthy. Im excited about all 3 races, and nothing seems imbalanced to me. I liked this report as it addressed a lot of concerns ive seen people have.
The issue with creating a higher damage tank, will be that races such as Zerg have a lot harder time in some compositions to engage, as opposed to medivac speed. Besides, they are fine, the only thing in the game I feel needs to be revisited is the oracle damage in ZvP.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 19 2013 22:52 Terrasmith wrote:
I actually think the only matchup where the new medivacs are a problem is TvT. Watch Flash vs Innovation. Doom drops on both sides completely decided one of the games-I forget which one, but there were several drops of 5+ medivacs. Honestly, if Life and MC can easily deflect boosted drops, the other top tier players will quickly imitate them, and the metagame will evolve from there. Both Phoenixes and Mutalisks are fast enough to endanger medivacs, even when boosted.
I'd like to see Protoss using the warp prism for harassment more often, as well as more nydus play. All ins aside, setting up nydus worms in several locations allows for unbelievable mobility for even roach hydra off creep, and two or three warp prisms could send zealots in to a natural and third simultaneously, with little to no warning, against Terran at least. I'm sure there are good reasons why we don't see either of these used, but I'll voice the opinion anyway.
At the moment, the only imbalance I see is that swarm hosts are of extremely limited usefulness. Aside from that, skytoss may be a problem if zergs can't find a way to counter it, but let's give them that time first. From watching MLG, the highest quality games seemed to be decided by either skill level or new strats beating old strats, either of which is much better than watching late WoL games where one side just turtled until they won, with no real interesting play. I'm happy with where HotS is going.
In terms of changes....why doesn't the medivac cooldown start after the ability ends? Just a thought.
Did you even watch the game?
It didn't completely decide the games. Innovation doom dropped Flash, killed Flash's main, Flash still won.
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On March 19 2013 22:52 Terrasmith wrote:
I actually think the only matchup where the new medivacs are a problem is TvT. Watch Flash vs Innovation. Doom drops on both sides completely decided one of the games-I forget which one, but there were several drops of 5+ medivacs.
This already happened in WoL and it is easy to deal with when you drop defensively. It was rather strange that they didn't do it that way and decided to move their army on the ground (dropping and counter dropping in TvT was common in BW already). In Pre GSTL HotS Season there was a TvT that was a few levels over what happened on MLG and they are free to watch if I remember correctly and really worth a watch.
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On March 19 2013 22:11 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote:
To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said. how will a casual feel when he has to manually send every worker to gas / minerals? how will casual feel when he grabs his bunch of marries and sees that oh wait, i can only select 12??!? WTF? 1a2a3a4s is a bit harder than 1a or f2 a Please stop embarrassing yourself.
Oh great ... why dont you stop embarrassing yourself by playing the stupid black and white card?
Game development for SC2 isnt limited to the choice between "fully manual BW mode" and "fully automated SC2 mode" ... there is also the middle ground.
Worker automining, multiple building selection and autorepair (maybe) are the things which are acceptable improvements in SC2. Unlimited unit selection combined with perfectly tight unit movement are really terrible because of the "damage per area problem" which I have explained countless times already with the "Marines vs Stalkers" example.
You just need to look at this "dps per area problem" and you have to realize that it didnt exist in BW. Why? Because of the "waggly non-tight unit movement" and the 12-unit-selection limit. In addition the lower economy didnt encourage waiting for a maxed army or throwing away your units in BW either, so all the production and economic speed boosts are bad.
Being able to stack your units while they were at a defensive position was one part of the defenders advantage in BW, but that doesnt exist in SC2 anymore ... which is bad for the strategy aspect. The ugly deathball is FORCED in SC2 because of the unit movement and selection mechanics which simply make "every unit in the same spot" the most efficient way to play.
Casuals will feel ok with just 12 units (or maybe 2 groups of 12), because they could defend against their better friends who have twice as many units because they can stack up defensively and be more efficient. In BW you had to be GOOD to break a defensive position instead of simply having far superior numbers and waltzing through.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 19 2013 23:11 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 22:11 vojnik wrote:On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote:
To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said. how will a casual feel when he has to manually send every worker to gas / minerals? how will casual feel when he grabs his bunch of marries and sees that oh wait, i can only select 12??!? WTF? 1a2a3a4s is a bit harder than 1a or f2 a Please stop embarrassing yourself. Oh great ... why dont you stop embarrassing yourself by playing the stupid black and white card? Game development for SC2 isnt limited to the choice between "fully manual BW mode" and "fully automated SC2 mode" ... there is also the middle ground. Worker automining, multiple building selection and autorepair (maybe) are the things which are acceptable improvements in SC2. Unlimited unit selection combined with perfectly tight unit movement are really terrible because of the "damage per area problem" which I have explained countless times already with the "Marines vs Stalkers" example. You just need to look at this "dps per area problem" and you have to realize that it didnt exist in BW. Why? Because of the "waggly non-tight unit movement" and the 12-unit-selection limit. In addition the lower economy didnt encourage waiting for a maxed army or throwing away your units in BW either, so all the production and economic speed boosts are bad. Being able to stack your units while they were at a defensive position was one part of the defenders advantage in BW, but that doesnt exist in SC2 anymore ... which is bad for the strategy aspect. The ugly deathball is FORCED in SC2 because of the unit movement and selection mechanics which simply make "every unit in the same spot" the most efficient way to play. Casuals will feel ok with just 12 units (or maybe 2 groups of 12), because they could defend against their better friends who have twice as many units because they can stack up defensively and be more efficient. In BW you had to be GOOD to break a defensive position instead of simply having far superior numbers and waltzing through.
And nothing stops you from only taking 12 units at a time in a group? You always have the OPTION of doing so....... Having unlimited unit selection in a group does NOT mean you have to do it. It means you can select 12, 14, 24 if you feel that's better, no?
As for units clumping up, you can, again, manually split them if you so desire........
so wtf is the pblm again?
and what's this every unit same spot non-sense......i don't even.... zerglings do surround, they don't deathball, marines, zealots, stalkers...etc. don't deathball either, you spread them out so every unit can attack.. unless it's ranged vs melee, where you would want to minimize the area at which the melee can attack you........ it's dynamic, it's not whatever you think it is..kk?
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I like how the zvz meta became muta ling/bane vs muta ling/bane, not. Roach was fun to play with especially in zvz's and the rule of engagement. Now it's really who makes more mutas and upgrades.
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On March 19 2013 23:30 Levernz wrote:
I like how the zvz meta became muta ling/bane vs muta ling/bane, not. Roach was fun to play with especially in zvz's and the rule of engagement. Now it's really who makes more mutas and upgrades.
I still play it exactly the same way as before, +1 roach timing to deny third while taking third myself and then use my eco lead to just go fucking kill them with a maxed 3base doom push of roach/infestor/hydra. Dunno how it works higher up in master/GM when people start to micro better, but I'm just low master so works fine so far 
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On March 19 2013 23:11 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 22:11 vojnik wrote:On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote:
To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said. how will a casual feel when he has to manually send every worker to gas / minerals? how will casual feel when he grabs his bunch of marries and sees that oh wait, i can only select 12??!? WTF? 1a2a3a4s is a bit harder than 1a or f2 a Please stop embarrassing yourself. Oh great ... why dont you stop embarrassing yourself by playing the stupid black and white card? Game development for SC2 isnt limited to the choice between "fully manual BW mode" and "fully automated SC2 mode" ... there is also the middle ground. Worker automining, multiple building selection and autorepair (maybe) are the things which are acceptable improvements in SC2. Unlimited unit selection combined with perfectly tight unit movement are really terrible because of the "damage per area problem" which I have explained countless times already with the "Marines vs Stalkers" example. You just need to look at this "dps per area problem" and you have to realize that it didnt exist in BW. Why? Because of the "waggly non-tight unit movement" and the 12-unit-selection limit. In addition the lower economy didnt encourage waiting for a maxed army or throwing away your units in BW either, so all the production and economic speed boosts are bad. Being able to stack your units while they were at a defensive position was one part of the defenders advantage in BW, but that doesnt exist in SC2 anymore ... which is bad for the strategy aspect. The ugly deathball is FORCED in SC2 because of the unit movement and selection mechanics which simply make "every unit in the same spot" the most efficient way to play. Casuals will feel ok with just 12 units (or maybe 2 groups of 12), because they could defend against their better friends who have twice as many units because they can stack up defensively and be more efficient. In BW you had to be GOOD to break a defensive position instead of simply having far superior numbers and waltzing through.
how does that make BW mechanics easier? Most casuals did turtle fest in BW till Battle cruisers
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Well, they still don’t get it. Or rather do, just refuse to do anything about it :/
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On March 20 2013 00:12 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 23:30 Levernz wrote:
I like how the zvz meta became muta ling/bane vs muta ling/bane, not. Roach was fun to play with especially in zvz's and the rule of engagement. Now it's really who makes more mutas and upgrades. I still play it exactly the same way as before, +1 roach timing to deny third while taking third myself and then use my eco lead to just go fucking kill them with a maxed 3base doom push of roach/infestor/hydra. Dunno how it works higher up in master/GM when people start to micro better, but I'm just low master so works fine so far
Yes thats the problem i am High Master on NA and all my zvz's are Mutas vs Mutas  I tried the roach timing push but their mutas are out by the time you get to their third. Even if i denie it, they will hard counter with mass lings et mutas.
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On March 19 2013 22:22 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 22:01 CimonTheStoic wrote:On March 19 2013 01:52 nojok wrote:
I just had a random idea, maybe it's totally wrong, but why not make the boost forcing the medivacs to go in a straight line & can't drop/pick units? They will still be very powerful but more risky if you do it blindly and it would require more skill to be able to drop exactly where you want. interesting. would be fun to play with. terrible idea. why would you want to drastically reduce that amount of micro possible? And how the hell would this be more funt o play with then dropships that can zip around and drop wherever you need them? all the people crying about medivacs are the same people who were too stubborn to even learn how to deal with them in WOL. you know who you are. people were STILL complaining on the ladder in WOL when I would drop them all the way up until the end
You being all offensive isn't going to change the fact that he's on a interesting track here. Making this spell a conscious choice instead of using it every few seconds like a braindead robot is only going to improve the game.
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EPT
