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On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote:
To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said.
That is only because you choose tactics tailored to the good players. I think there are alot of good and easy executable tactics, which allows you to focus on only a few things. For example, Hellion / Thor with autorepair scvs. That tactic was good enough to bring me to low diamond last season, and that is when there were no hellbats. (not talking about an all-in, alot of the matches went pretty late)
edit: though I doubt that tactics will ever bring you to masters, low diamond or plat is pretty good for a casual player I think.
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On March 19 2013 17:56 Xaerkar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:41 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 14:19 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote:
As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop. The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care. Oh? So it is the mapmakers fault that we dont have gold mineral bases on maps anymore and it is their fault as well that we dont have cliff positions overlooking bases anymore? Many of the balance problems are based in one general gameplay decision made by Blizzard: the increased economy and production speed boosts. IF the economy was so small that those 4 Medivacs of the doom drop would be hard to replace then the risk of making such a drop would be far greater and equal to the gain. Since you can mass-produce the Medivacs from a reactored Starport it isnt that much of an investment. The same is true for Infestors which only became a problem when people started making 25+ of them and spamming the whole battle with the much-too-cheap Infested Terrans. So the long term solution isnt really to nerf the Medivac boost but rather to get rid of economic and production speed boosts. In addition certain mobility mechanics need to be redone to give cliffs and narrow chokes a defensive value while not making them too abuseable by one race. Instead of redesigning the economic and production speed boosts, Blizzard simply just needs to create a drawback to the investment of dropping. For instance back in the WoL TvZ Mutalingbane days drops were risky once spire tech was finished because they could be easily sniped. However, certain Terran players still managed to make them work every so often. Medivacs are only so powerful at the moment because there is no integral anti-air unit for the Zerg in the midgame that has been demonstrated to be successful yet. So in a few months if Zerg still has not found a proper response then Blizzard will probably swing the nerfbat, but until then army compositions simply need to be toyed with until we can find the proper composition. Mapmakers don't make maps tailored to their own tastes, but rather to the metagame. Lost temple was considered a garbage map because of the abuse of siege tanks positioned on the high ground. There were people that rushed thor drops just to get one onto the ledge. Cheesy strategies that are only executable on certain maps should not exist. Maps became bigger because players started playing more "macro-oriented" games, hence mapmakers could not get away with maps that were the size of steppes of war.
You're wrong, Bw had tons of maps with cheesy things only executable on certain maps. For exemple this neutral cc into infested terrans. It's really refreshing to have certain starts viable only on certain maps.
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On March 19 2013 19:08 Sky0 wrote:Korea GM atm. Doesnt look like zergs doing to bad. + Show Spoiler +
ROFL
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One thing is for sure, this MLG had some of the most action-packed games I've seen in a looong time. whatever they are doing, it's working pretty well. maybe there needs to be some little tweaks here or there, but overall the game seems pretty balanced. only time will tell though.
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On March 19 2013 19:15 sc2superfan101 wrote:
One thing is for sure, this MLG had some of the most action-packed games I've seen in a looong time. whatever they are doing, it's working pretty well. maybe there needs to be some little tweaks here or there, but overall the game seems pretty balanced. only time will tell though.
Yeah, the MLG final was awesome to watch. Balance-wise I think they have hit pretty well and for TvZ only need to make minor adjustments - if at all - too early to say in my opinion.
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Flash took one for the team to not get terran nerfed 
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
On March 19 2013 21:01 emanresU wrote:Flash took one for the team to not get terran nerfed
MVP so greedy, he could have stopped at 2 championships and let zerg creepspread get nerfed in WoL but nooo he had to keep on winning T_T
(just joking btw)
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Good decision by Blizz to not jump the gun yet.
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It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore.
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On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore.
more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is.
Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo.
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On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo.
Only Life can do it.
And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol
They focus too much on WM.
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On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore.
Somebody has to pioneer a new build, and when a really good player does it, he can make it look totally unbalanced. It's like MC and his 1-2 base pushes that won him 3 GSL's, it looked OP - but it wasn't.
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i don't think there is a particular race/unit that is super OP at the moment, i think instead of calling imba like most ppl are doing, you should go re-evaluate what mistakes you've made instead of complaining to blizzard
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On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM.
Forgot that Mutas are much better then before, especially if the terran doesn't build widow mines?!
Can't believe you zergies are still complaining about balance when we haven't got any proof that the balance is off in any matchup.
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On March 19 2013 15:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:10 RampancyTW wrote:
To anybody attempting to reason with Rabiator: he recently stated that the reason BW is so much better than SC2 is because SC2 is too mechanically difficult compared to BW. Yes, you read that correctly. He thinks that BW was a mechanically easier game than SC2. That is what you're dealing with here.
/PSA It is mechanically difficult FOR A CASUAL due to a crapton of clickies and spells on every unit. For Protoss good Forcefield and Blink useage are REQUIRED and the same is true for Terrans and their Marine splitting micro. You didnt need those silly mechanics in BW. Good job at "choice-picking and reinterpreting" what I said.
Didnt need those mechanics in bw... are you serious? Either 1. You didnt play BW, or 2. You werent good at it. True force fields n blink werent required. But are you serious on the marine splitting..? You tell me no splitting is required when lurkers take out half your army. Splitting was crucial. Please stop talking about brood war in comparisons to sc2. You sound like you dont know what you are talking about.
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On March 19 2013 21:52 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:36 FakeDeath wrote:On March 19 2013 21:30 Zephirdd wrote:On March 19 2013 21:29 Zheryn wrote:
It's funny how a single person can change the game balance so much. If Life hadn't played MLG we would most likely have seen the nerfs they initially posted about within a week or two. As much as I enjoyed watching him play, I can't help but feel a bit sad, since he's slowing down the balancing of the game due to outplaying everyone hardcore. more like he is showing how strong zerg actually is. Tons of success with his baneling aggression into mutalisk build. That shit's insane yo. Only Life can do it. And Terran just forgot how to use Siege Tank.lol They focus too much on WM. Forgot that Mutas are much better then before, especially if the terran doesn't build widow mines?! Can't believe you zergies are still complaining about balance when we haven't got any proof that the balance is off in any matchup.
Those mutas in the Flash-Life series withstood like 3-4 mines without taking any significant damage or loss.
Life's style is really effing strong.
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from what i've seen, the only sketchy thing i've seen is medivacs vs protoss. The rest was fine, imo.
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On March 19 2013 01:52 nojok wrote:
I just had a random idea, maybe it's totally wrong, but why not make the boost forcing the medivacs to go in a straight line & can't drop/pick units? They will still be very powerful but more risky if you do it blindly and it would require more skill to be able to drop exactly where you want.
interesting. would be fun to play with.
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On March 19 2013 19:08 Sky0 wrote:Korea GM atm. Doesnt look like zergs doing to bad. + Show Spoiler +
Too strong, buff Terran and Toss!
Tbh, I hope they will bring in more stuff that makes the crowd go OOOOOOOH in tweaks instead of nerfing things. When there's more powerful abilities or something that makes positional play stronger it will make for more exciting games.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JdO6iOq.png)
