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From the TvZ games in the MLG, most Terrans were opting for MMM + widow mines after some hellion contain, they seem to work well enough in most cases with the exception of ST Life who is simply too gosu. 3 base ling baneling in theory could be defended with this combo as long as T isn't too greedy.
I do think however this strat isn't working out to be far better than Bio-tank, or even some added Hellbats, which T isn't using as much these days due to the Armory requirement. In the Flash / Innovation / Polt vs Life games, I can't help but feel if the Hellions didn't get surrounded by lings, were more active in scouting the huge 3 base lingbane, they could still return to base as Hellbats for defense if it weren't for the armory requirement which isn't such a big deal to get.
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On March 19 2013 13:24 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote:
I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise. Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates.
Same can be said about Zerg and Protoss. -_-. The issue that happens is that each race hits the steep part of their races learning curves at diffrent times.
For example Terran in WOL lategame was very hard for players whose Macro was great,but lacked the control and multitasking ability. One miss click and you die to storms/banlings. Or lose all your vikings to Fungal.
For Zergs the learning curve is hit much earlier. Many Zergs have the issue that they just lose straight up because they lack game sense on when they should Drone/Make Army. Lost so many times cuz of this T_T.
Protoss IMO have the latest Learning curve. Protoss is pretty straight forward until you start facing Terrans with good control, and Zergs with actual game sense. Then it feels impossible to ever win -__-.
Truth is that regardless of the race you play. Were all complaining.
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From the standpoint of the viability of SC2 as an esport, you probably need aggression and action. NR15 games are not going to draw viewers. Especially when an esport tournament consists of 10 hr long days full of games lol. Something to consider.
On another note, it somehow feels really satisfying knowing that Blizzard is taking the wait and see and aggression favored approach. It means we can know with certainty that all the current balance whine on forums will have no influence  .
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On March 19 2013 13:37 Doodsmack wrote:From the standpoint of the viability of SC2 as an esport, you probably need aggression and action. NR15 games are not going to draw viewers. Especially when an esport tournament consists of 10 hr long days full of games lol. Something to consider. On another note, it somehow feels really satisfying knowing that Blizzard is taking the wait and see and aggression favored approach. It means we can know with certainty that all the current balance whine on forums will have no influence .
Yeah SC2 needed more Attacking and expanding behind it, rather then herp I build base and defense it. U no break ma D. NR15.
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On March 19 2013 13:24 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote:
I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise. Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates.
There's always a portion that will raise a fuss regardless of winrates. I've personally been critical through most of WoL, mostly because of the lack of Terran foreigners, while there are other Zerg and Protoss lobbies as well.
At the same time, there is a very real stigma against Terran. It's the same stigma that exists about rocks, and it permeates the discussion to protect a large portion to blindly rage against Terran.
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active abilities are fun! viper swarm and pull, medi boost, mother ship core sphere slime thing. yeah sure a lot of zerg units can burrow but it's cooler if they all have something unique from it! a cool active from swarm host. nerf regular hosts but give an active that makes MORE hosts? immediately? oracle is kinda cool but his hi s offensive active not all that interesting....
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I don't really think Terran is that IMBA yet, see Life vs Flash , MLG finals for example. Terrans were very dominant in the tournament but a Zerg won it .
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hmmm i like this stance, good job, blizzard.
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As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 19 2013 13:35 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:24 tomatriedes wrote:On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote:
I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise. Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates. Same can be said about Zerg and Protoss. -_-. The issue that happens is that each race hits the steep part of their races learning curves at diffrent times. For example Terran in WOL lategame was very hard for players whose Macro was great,but lacked the control and multitasking ability. One miss click and you die to storms/banlings. Or lose all your vikings to Fungal. For Zergs the learning curve is hit much earlier. Many Zergs have the issue that they just lose straight up because they lack game sense on when they should Drone/Make Army. Lost so many times cuz of this T_T. Protoss IMO have the latest Learning curve. Protoss is pretty straight forward until you start facing Terrans with good control, and Zergs with actual game sense. Then it feels impossible to ever win -__-. Truth is that regardless of the race you play. Were all complaining.
Well, it's hard to say protoss players are just as bad as whiners because they were overall, statistically speaking, the worst race in WoL. Lowest overall winrates and what not, shortest period of being dominant, etc.
That said, everyone whines. The day players stop whining about a race is the day that race needs a buff.
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On March 19 2013 13:49 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:35 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 13:24 tomatriedes wrote:On March 19 2013 11:51 aksfjh wrote:On March 19 2013 11:33 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 11:14 Swordland wrote:
I agree..people are just not used to terrans being decent...end of wol, terrans were weak, everyone can admit that. Now we have a decent buff in the form of medivacs....they are already complaining...
Protoss has new stuff, zerg has new stuff, why cant terrans have new stuff? So much hate towards terrans lol. They cant buff other races and expect Terrans to keep up without new stuff lol Don't forget that terrans were dominating for the entire first half of WoL. Not everyone has forgotten. People aren't hating on terran as a race, they're upset because terran has a tool to attack that seems like it requires a response that is vastly more difficult to execute than the drop and requires more resources than the dropper is required to commit, because a defense must be in place before the drop is attempted or it's too slow. It's understandable, if unreasonable. Give it time. Don't forget about the random calls for widow mine nerfs. There seems to be a lot of calls to nerf Terran outside the medivac, and it looks like Terran is just the community punching bag once again. You'd think after 9 months of ZvZ (which people hated BEFORE infestor-fest) people would be happy for change, but it went from a level of 5/10 to a 9/10 balance complaint strength from Zerg to Terran, and after just 1 event. You even have casters halfway through the event calling preemptive nerfs. The Terran hate is strong in the community, don't ever think otherwise. Oh please stop being so precious. Terran players are just as bad. For almost the whole of WOL, there was non-stop whining in LR threads about protoss late game from terran whiners. It was sickening that even when TvP was over 60% win rate these people did nothing but complain. I would actually say in terms of balance whining terrans are by far the worst because they tend to whine even when they have the best win rates. Same can be said about Zerg and Protoss. -_-. The issue that happens is that each race hits the steep part of their races learning curves at diffrent times. For example Terran in WOL lategame was very hard for players whose Macro was great,but lacked the control and multitasking ability. One miss click and you die to storms/banlings. Or lose all your vikings to Fungal. For Zergs the learning curve is hit much earlier. Many Zergs have the issue that they just lose straight up because they lack game sense on when they should Drone/Make Army. Lost so many times cuz of this T_T. Protoss IMO have the latest Learning curve. Protoss is pretty straight forward until you start facing Terrans with good control, and Zergs with actual game sense. Then it feels impossible to ever win -__-. Truth is that regardless of the race you play. Were all complaining. Well, it's hard to say protoss players are just as bad as whiners because they were overall, statistically speaking, the worst race in WoL. Lowest overall winrates and what not, shortest period of being dominant, etc. That said, everyone whines. The day players stop whining about a race is the day that race needs a buff.
I'd argue that it's the day SC2 dies 
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Just want to echo everyone in giving a shout out to David Kim for making this post and keeping us aware of what's going on at Blizzard. This is a great example of communication between the players and the designers. David, thanks for doing this and I hope we get to see more of it.
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On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience.
It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features.
Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void.
On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote:
As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed.
Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit.
On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters.
Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop.
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Still not liking Protoss gameplay. we're still forced to turtle (minus timings) until we get a few AoE units to support our single-target-tanky deathball.
I'll just say it, I miss my speed shuttles with reavers.
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On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote:
As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit.
Maps make a difference in all non Protoss Match-ups. Protoss is only concerned about how safe the 3rd is.
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On March 19 2013 14:14 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote:
As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. Maps make a difference in all non Protoss Match-ups. Protoss is only concerned about how safe the 3rd is.
Of course they do ... all I am saying is that Blizzards stupid "mobility mobility above everything and Forcefield" design LIMITS THE MAPMAKERS IN WHAT THEY CAN DO.
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On March 19 2013 10:13 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:27 KingAce wrote:
Whenever I look at balance discussion it becomes abundantly clear. People rather have an unbalanced game than have their race nerfed. The finals at MLG were ok.
The build up to the finals was frustrating. The medivac speed boost has no justification. Drops have always been powerful even in WoL. However, now they have little to no risk for such a powerful maneuver. I would say a decrease in the health of the medivac is in order.
I would like to hear the explanation of why widow mines shooting at air units was ever a good idea.
The problem with terran in SC2 has always been blizzard desperate need to make every terran unit extremely versatile. For a long time in WoL the reaper was the only bad unit the race had. Because terran has to be well rounded because it's very hard to tech switch into something completely different. When a terran goes mech, they just go mech, they don't scout their opponent then decide to make mech. Sometimes, but it's very rare that a terran will react to an opponents build as opposed to just doing what the hell they want, and that's fine, their race is built that way. Obviously good terrans scout and react, but still, a terran who goes 3/3 bio won't stop making marines because he sees infestors because it's not easy to just make 3/3 air units out of nowhere. Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 22:41 Crisium wrote:
I don't like the Mutalisk changes.
Mutalisks got a slight speed boost, but more importantly heal 3x as fast as in WoL (and compared to any other Zerg unit). So Muta harass is improved since they take less damage from being quicker, and heal so fast as to almost negate any pot shots you manage to hit before they flee. In BW and WoL, you could always value every single extra turret or marine shot you got on a Mutalisk because you knew they would get worn down and you would eventually defeat them. Now they just shrug off a few hits like nothing. Even Widow Mine splash damage is hardly an issue. A Zerg unit heals 13hp pretty fast. That's the equivalent of a Muta healing about 40. Keep in mind the other improved threats out there. Widow mines, Hunker Seeker Missile improved, Marines with better Medivacs, Phoenix speed and range buff, cheaper DT shrine meaning more obtainable Archons, mass recall to bring an army back to defend mutas and photon overcharge. I think muta buff is completely reasonable because WoL was a turtle fest for zerg, there was no reason to build mutas if you could turtle your way to a 20 min victory with BL/infestor. With the new units in HotS, why would zerg do anything different? well they can, because now mutas are buffed so they don't have to rely on BL/infestor to win games, it gives power back to muta builds which were always exciting to watch. Let's continue to watch and see how HotS progresses, there is no use whining about anything until we see more games, and even then, in BW when something was imba it had to be figured out, QQ'ing and hoping blizzard would patch was not an option back then.
the first half of your post got me puzzled. Are you suggesting that other races can switch tech easily? I mean, sure zerg can, but can protoss really change tech easily? Protoss will most of the time, have their army comp be zealot/stalkers, which actually loses to every other "basic unit composition" in the game. Then on top of that protoss has to choose a tech path. Now, deviating from what the protoss originally chose is difficult, isn't it? If i've invested in to colossi, and thermal lance, I can't just put down 2 stargates and pump out pheonixs and be effecitve in time cause he made mutas. Or, i can't go HT, but then suddenly put down 2 robos and pump out immortals cause he went mech. And it's not like zealot/stalker/HT can stand up to an army that HT isn't meant to be an effective counter to. Following your argument, each one of the protoss tech should be "well rounded" against most strategies (i don't want it to be, but following your argument it seems that it should).
Terran has scouting options open to them like never before. I mean, look at flash's game, he makes a reaper almsot every game, early. There's no way to deny that scouting unless I somehow guess which ledge this reaper is gonna jump up from. why not choose your tech after seeing your opponent's tech path? making 1 reaper (and you HAVE to build a baracks to do anything anyways lol) is no greater investment than protoss making an observer in WOL in almost every game because it's their only scouting option.
You might argue that protoss has better scouting, which in HOTS, it seems that protoss does, but this has persisted since WOL, where protoss has minimal scouting options before commiting to a tech path (this is not a counter argument, but just pointing it out). And terran can almost always spare a scan before fully commiting to a tech path.
I just feel that your argument is flawed in that "well since terran can't change tech terran units have to be super well rounded".
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On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote:
As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 22:47 Cloak wrote:
For people who keep pointing out the small sample size, that also applies to your stance that "HotS is balanced enough to never warrant changes until absolutely necessary." There is other analysis aside from statistical, like watching the games and seeing 6 korean Toss none make it to top 4 because 3 of them,got Afterburned so easily because Terran buffs all integrate perfectly into originally balanced bio play. Afterburn threat comes out too early, needs a research because it capitulates Toss too easily to ever have a chance of a 3rd and has no compromise to army strength and adding harass potential.
Can't have a strategy so OP to limit entire macro devisions of Toss strategy. Only Protoss who stood a chance was Air opener MC, but Zerg also had a stupidly easy time with Hydra/Ling just crushing any build Toss can do. Do we want another 1 1/2 years of Terran dominance with the same tired arguments? So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop.
The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care.
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On March 19 2013 14:19 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:08 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 13:29 docvoc wrote:On March 19 2013 13:20 Serpico wrote:On March 19 2013 13:17 GinDo wrote:On March 19 2013 11:57 Hinoba wrote:
range on vipers, splash(in general on mines) and after burners is something to be looked at. Yes it's fun to watch, doesn't mean it's balanced. To be honest I'm okay with the state of the game. BW was imbalanced as hell, but still very awesome. Unless something is extremely gamebreaking like 5 Rax Reaper I'd rather Blizzard not touch it for now. BW was balanced pretty well with good maps actually when you think about how it was left unchanged for so many years. The maps balancing things out isn't going to work as well for SC2, just because the map making teams aren't getting blizz to look at their stuff as much as in BW when things were a bit more open. That said, I'd like to see how things are balanced via maps in HotS I feel that now that Blizz has a big competitor other than it's previous games in terms of viewership, they will be more open to making this a much better experience. It is worse than that. Maps have ever fewer influence over the gameplay balance because there are so many "just ignore terrain limitations" abilities AND racially specific boosts which prevent them from using certain map features. Cliffjump/-walk, Blink, Nydus worm anywhere and now Vipers can either abduct their enemies from a safe entrenched position into a mass of Zerg OR they can move their own tough units to where they couldnt have gotten before. So there is a growing list of features which mapmakers can NOT ADD because it would give one race an advantage. Gold minerals and cliffs overlooking bases are more or less gone from the map pool; narrow chokes are "too good for Protoss" to include and abducting Ultralisks into an enemy's main base might require them to be surrounded by a "larger than abduct range" kind of void. On March 19 2013 13:48 Clazziquai10 wrote:
As a terran, i agree with speeedvacs needing a tradeoff. It should require an upgrade or require energy. Or maybe something like, in the 10 seconds following the boost, it travels at half its usual speed. Neither of those really solve the problem of super-doom-drops racing into an enemy's base. They only delay it (in the case of an upgrade) or make the Medivacs more Feedback-proof (in the case of an energy cost). Sure you can prevent the ability from being spammed with that energy cost, but it doesnt change the effect one bit. On March 19 2013 03:21 Crownlol wrote:On March 19 2013 03:01 Rabiator wrote:On March 19 2013 01:17 Whitewing wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:
[quote]
So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Right, let's just ring the main base with 30 cannons to have 3-4 cannons in range of every possible drop location to stop a doom drop, because anything less and he'll just scan, find the open spot, and boost right in or over the cannons. And we'll do that at the 10-12 minute mark when he's got 4 medivacs and more coming and have no units at all, so we lose when he stims in the front door. Oh, and forget about taking a third base with all that money invested into cannons. Let's not forget that if he can unload in the corner of your base and then stim into your cannon wall, the cannons will be worthless, because they suck at dealing damage to MMM. You can't cannon up enough to stop a doom drop against speed medivacs before you're maxed out on 3-4 bases or until you've got storm and a bunch of high templar to buy time. There isnt any other option to covering your bases with static defenses ... well you could leave your army there, but that would be giving up map control entirely, so it isnt really an option. So if you come to the conclusion that "defending with cannons is not viable" then the Medivac boost must be rather overpowered / imbalanced. Doom drops have been powerful in WoL already and even more so in lower leagues, because players dont have the same map awareness and reaction time as pros do, so boosting that potential is kinda dubious to begin with. On March 19 2013 01:16 Plansix wrote:On March 19 2013 00:57 Rabiator wrote:On March 18 2013 23:35 Plansix wrote:On March 18 2013 23:31 tauliss wrote:On March 18 2013 23:17 Cloak wrote:On March 18 2013 22:59 tauliss wrote:
[quote]
So if the terran is rushing to medivacs they probably aren't taking a quick third, and if you're taking a quick third against a quick teching player you should be punished. That's kind of the way the game works. The protoss options aren't limited, but protoss need to pay attention and scout what their opponents are doing. We saw one player out of 4 try something different and it was pretty successful. So stop complaining so much and give it time. Yea, but what happens afterward when Terran has map control and a stronger army? Uncontested macro -> gg. Yeah, but isn't this your fault. It's not like protoss can't contest for map control. Even now more so than ever protoss should have an easier time taking map control. You have this ability called RECALL that you can use to get out of trouble. Maybe also I'm missing something here, if it is 2 base vs 2 base in pvt how does the terran have the advantage. Aslong as you don't tech too hard the army value should be about equal. Again it's all about keeping an eye on your opponent. Once the terran gets to four medivacs, the protoss currently loses map control due to the fact that the terran can doom drop their base. In a base race, the terran always has the advantage due to the fact that they can fly their buildings. Because of the fear of the doom drop, the protoss is force to stay home and defend while the terran can expand to a third. This is the current metagame, which can change if the protoss figures out how to delay that third without risking a full base race. It may be through harassment of some sort, but the terran currently has control of the map in the mid game with the speed of the medivac. Terrans can only doom drop the Protoss base because Protoss are stupid and DO NOT BUILD CANNONS to prevent Medivacs from even getting in. That is the only real option to defend against something like this, because it requires no actions on the defenders side AND it costs zero supply! Just make sure to completely ignore the Day[9] mantra of "thats a [INSERT STATIC DEFENSE] he didnt want to build" and build a large enough number of static defenses to deter even a doom drop. You dont have to start with that number because drops start with a single Medivac, but you need to add to the number of cannons defending the outer rim of your main base and the natural. There is usually only one spot where those shuttles come in for each of these two bases AND the cannons are nice in the early game against Reapers as well (depending on the map though). On March 19 2013 00:52 nojok wrote:
First big tourney result : zerg, terran x2, protoss. Life, Flash & MC are recognised as true masters of starcraft, innovation a bit less. Not much to say about balance right now & the games have been really entertaining during the tourney. Good job blizzard, I thought I would not buy hots but I now give it a try as it seems more fun than the stagnating meta of wol.
Wait & see, letting mapmakers working around the current balance is also a key about success, they were the true masters of BW. Mapmakers are limited by Blizzards unit design, because there is no cliff overlooking bases anymore and gold minerals? Nah ... They cant fix those screw-ups of the dev team, they can only lessen the impact of stupid design. Says the man who stated that he wouldn't buy hots and didn't play SC2. Boosted medivacs have a sight range of 10, a speed that is faster than any unit in the game when boosted and turn on a dime. They are just going to fly around the cannons that cannot move to chase them. There are no amount of photon cannons you can build that is going to stop a doom drop, since they can just fly around them. And not on two bases. The protoss army is not leaving while there are 2-4 medivacs on the field until their own 3rd base is secure. No amount of cannons is going to let them leave. If you plant your cannons in a stupid position then surely they will be "flown around", but for most main bases there arent "a bazillion points of entrance" (as you suggested) and all anti-air static defenses have a decent range to begin with, so your argument is kinda hollow and "auto-anti-Rabiator-ish". Even a doom drop isnt that powerful, since it still takes time to unload the units. The whole point is that there must be a way to defend against this ... and if there isnt then the developers skill must be called into question. Maybe a combination of a few cannons and some Phoenix set on auto-patrol around your two first bases (for additional vision around them and increased warning time) would be the right way to defend ... the crucial part are the Medivacs and killing them is the all-important goal to stopping them. The point is that even after you have your 3rd base "secured" your main bases are still vulnerable to doom drops and the Terran could easily get back into the game by destroying your main base and expansion (with all the crucial tech buildings in them) with a "desperation drop", so there really is ZERO ALTERNATIVE to covering your base entrances with cannons. P.S.: You dont need to play the game to come to this conclusion, some common sense is enough. Stargate openings have worked better for me than cannons. A few oracles into phoenixes works pretty well. Patrol or leave your phoenixes in a place where they often drop- catching a full medivac or two can be GG in sub-masters. Well the point of cannons is that you dont need supply and they do not cost any gas. If you ever pull away your defensive flyers for any reason you become vulnerable again, so cannons can really become a replacement later on (when you have the economy to "spam them"). Later on is when they are probably needed most, since that is when the Terran has the economy to do a big drop. The map thing is strictly a choice of mapmakers and the community. At the end of WoL, we STILL had safe overlord spying positions, and nobody seemed to care.
Oh? So it is the mapmakers fault that we dont have gold mineral bases on maps anymore and it is their fault as well that we dont have cliff positions overlooking bases anymore?
Many of the balance problems are based in one general gameplay decision made by Blizzard: the increased economy and production speed boosts. IF the economy was so small that those 4 Medivacs of the doom drop would be hard to replace then the risk of making such a drop would be far greater and equal to the gain. Since you can mass-produce the Medivacs from a reactored Starport it isnt that much of an investment. The same is true for Infestors which only became a problem when people started making 25+ of them and spamming the whole battle with the much-too-cheap Infested Terrans. So the long term solution isnt really to nerf the Medivac boost but rather to get rid of economic and production speed boosts.
In addition certain mobility mechanics need to be redone to give cliffs and narrow chokes a defensive value while not making them too abuseable by one race.
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