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stevarius
United States1394 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:14 FreshVegetables wrote: I think mine AI needs to be fixed, at least no nerfs to Terran based on this tournament. The swarm is still strong. Mine AI is looking like a gamble that almost never pays off. | ||
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? Stargate play in PvT scares the hell out of me. If any one thing can turn the PvT meta on top of its head, its going to be protoss finding a way to make stargate units an integral part of their unit composition. | ||
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FreshVegetables
Finland513 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? This is so true. People need to realize how far behind foreign pros are in terms of skill currently, I honestly believe the koreans would have beaten non-koreans with WoL units/upgrades only. | ||
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RaZorwire
Sweden718 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 1) IEM and MLG showdown qualifiers: PRE patch. Hellbats were imba, and they got patched. That is mostly incorrect. The last Hellbat-nerf happened on February 23rd. IEM was played after that, and 12 out of 28 MLG Showdown matches were as well. On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 2) Stephano, vortix, scarlett: all were destroying code S terrans in wol. Broodlord + infestor. Vortix and Scarlett weren't even at MLG. Why are you bringing them up? Also, what's your point? "Zerg was OP in WoL"? Yes, I know. They were. What does that have to do with what I said? On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 3) I look at the bo3 in general, and I see no problems. Not sure how you'd be doing that, considering almost all games where bo5.  And I do. See problems, that is. With the medivac speed boost, you have almost guaranteed damage and ability to escape with most of your units against most compositions, thanks to the short cooldown time. It requires no exceptional micro, and is overall pretty easy to use. Also, widow mines are almost always cost effective, even when only used passively for defence. Again, I'm not saying Terran is super-OP or anything, but I do believe that a slightly higher boost cooldown would be nice, if nothing else to make the ability a bit harder to use. Widow mines could use some slight nerf as well. On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 4) Stephano is known for being lazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was half as prepared as Last. Well sure, he is known for being lazy, but he's more known for being the best foreigner in the history of Starcraft in addition to having a win/loss-ratio higher than 1 vs Kespa-players in WoL. He's, in fact, the only EG-TL-players with a winrate higher than 1. On March 18 2013 10:01 Snowbear wrote: 5) The game is 5 days old. We terrans had to undergo broodlord + infestor untill the day of the release of HOTS. Put things into perspective. It was statistically supported that zerg was OP in wol, and still everything was fine. ? Don't understand this part at all. Yes, it was statistically supported that Zerg was OP, but no, everything was NOT fine. That's part of my point, having the "wait and see"-attitude is reasonable sometimes, but it can also be really harmful if there's an apparent imbalance you refure to adress for too long. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:14 FreshVegetables wrote: I think mine AI needs to be fixed, at least no nerfs to Terran based on this tournament. The swarm is still strong. Agreed. Perhaps more room for manual targeting, or less priority on things like Broodlings. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:53 DemigodcelpH wrote: Agreed. Perhaps more room for manual targeting, or less priority on things like Broodlings. If you could manual target something else need to be changed tough because it basically means ranged/flying banelings with a respawn timer to pick off key targets. | ||
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Shade_FR
France378 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:23 Dontkillme wrote: "Medivacs are too powerful". Really? Life shut down all sorts of Medivac play with Mutalisks. The afterburner lasts only for a short while, and after that the Mutalisks can catch them pretty easily. Also maybe toss will begin experimenting with Pheonixes to shut down medivacs. MC did 3-0 Bomber with Stargate play did he not? I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote: I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time because defending it require a lot of time, but even, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but definitely one. Really? Yet everyone is whining when Korean Terrans beat up Foreign zergs. You seriously think they are on the same level? Foreign zergs beat korean terrans in WoL mainly due to OP BL/infestors. | ||
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:58 Shade_FR wrote: I really hate this kind of statement. Not everyone think that Flash has the same skill level than Life you know ? I am a high master player, I can beat diamond players with stupid build, it doesn't mean it's imbalanced or something. When talking about balance you have to take in consideration the skill level of boths players. Flash didn't played very well compared to Life in this bo7, it's a very bad example in my opinion. Medivacs are an issue. David Kim and his team need more time / datas / games played because defending it require a lot of learning / adapting. But even then, it's still too powerful and it will require a nerf, maybe a little one, but it's definitely coming. And not everyone thinks Life has the same skill as Flash? whats your point lol. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On March 18 2013 10:41 RaZorwire wrote: That is mostly incorrect. The last Hellbat-nerf happened on February 23rd. IEM was played after that, and 12 out of 28 MLG Showdown matches were as well. Vortix and Scarlett weren't even at MLG. Why are you bringing them up? Also, what's your point? "Zerg was OP in WoL"? Yes, I know. They were. What does that have to do with what I said? Not sure how you'd be doing that, considering almost all games where bo5. And I do. See problems, that is. With the medivac speed boost, you have almost guaranteed damage and ability to escape with most of your units against most compositions, thanks to the short cooldown time. It requires no exceptional micro, and is overall pretty easy to use. Also, widow mines are almost always cost effective, even when only used passively for defence. Again, I'm not saying Terran is super-OP or anything, but I do believe that a slightly higher boost cooldown would be nice, if nothing else to make the ability a bit harder to use. Widow mines could use some slight nerf as well. Well sure, he is known for being lazy, but he's more known for being the best foreigner in the history of Starcraft in addition to having a win/loss-ratio higher than 1 vs Kespa-players in WoL. He's, in fact, the only EG-TL-players with a winrate higher than 1. ? Don't understand this part at all. Yes, it was statistically supported that Zerg was OP, but no, everything was NOT fine. That's part of my point, having the "wait and see"-attitude is reasonable sometimes, but it can also be really harmful if there's an apparent imbalance you refure to adress for too long. Medivacs are only guaranteed damage if you let them do damage through lack of scouting. Careful overlord/observer placement will give you a heads up on when its comming, and static defenses in key locations will not only force the terran to divert more attention to his drops, but will also buy you some valuable time to reinforce your location, its also more cost efficient to lose 1 static defense then workers. The most successful medivac defense I've seen was from Rain, who had observers in key locations to spot drops incoming, + some static defenses to buy him time while he repositioned units or warped in, also HTs. MC had map awareness via Phoenixes, that are by the way, also a great tool for denying and killing drops in transit. And lastly Life, who also defended against drops with a combination of good overlord spread, static defenses, mutalisks and lastly even Vipers to pull back Medivacs and prevent them from escaping. There are really very little conclusions that you could draw from this MLG too, the game is still too new, and very different styles are starting to be experimented with, terran is again the first to use all its new tools and its zergs and toss that are figuring out how to use their own as well as how to handle terrans. Mines aren't that bad either, you can either slowly and meticulously clear them out with ranged units + detectors, or you can use expendable units to absorb the shots and then flood in. Also, both zergs and toss have tools to bait out mine detonations, either 1 single ling for zerg or a hallucination from toss, its just that people are not that used to it yet. Wait for GSL before you draw any conclusions. | ||
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Shade_FR
France378 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:02 Killcani wrote: And not everyone thinks Life has the same skill as Flash? whats your point lol. My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash. Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see! medivacs are balanced after all !" in this topic is a smart idea. You have to consider the players in balance talk. | ||
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Killcani
Sweden448 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:05 Shade_FR wrote: My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash. Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see, medivacs are balanced after all !" is very well thought... Well to defend against medivacs you should be the better player or something is wrong do you not agree? Or should some random master Z have an easy time defending drops from Flash?. Im just saying Flash is NOT lacking in skill but maybe he is lacking in practice. The most OP thing I saw in that series were those banelings busts they seemed way better than any widow mine or speedvacs. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:09 Killcani wrote: Well to defend against medivacs you should be the better player or something is wrong do you not agree? Or should some random master Z have an easy time defending drops from Flash?. Im just saying Flash is NOT lacking in skill but maybe he is lacking in practice. The most OP thing I saw in that series were those banelings busts they seemed way better than any widow mine or speedvacs. Flash had like 0 intel on the baneling bust? Of course he is going to get punished if you are not gonna scout it out. It is pretty silly to called baneling busts more OP than mines/speedvacs in that silly. When baneling busts is still the same as it is in WoL. lol. | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:09 Killcani wrote: Well to defend against medivacs you should be the better player or something is wrong do you not agree? Or should some random master Z have an easy time defending drops from Flash?. Im just saying Flash is NOT lacking in skill but maybe he is lacking in practice. The most OP thing I saw in that series were those banelings busts they seemed way better than any widow mine or speedvacs. No, not really, those busts die to well positioned tanks, Life was just smart though, he identified Flash's style and used it against him by building a perfect counter. Bio-mine has a very hard time holding a push like that, but tanks would crush it. Flash would have needed to move his helions around the map a bit better to scout, as well as scan the main of Life at some point, doing one or both of those would have tipped him off and maybe he could have prepared better. Overall, I haven't see anything I'd consider broken, just players still learning the ropes and needing to adapt, the better player won in the end, and he was Life, the most adaptable player there, the one who tailored his style to his opponent each and every time. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
maybe zergs who based their playstyles on this very simple playstyle have to adjust a tiny bit. since life didn't have to, he hit the ground running. he basically played wol -- his brand of it -- zerg in hots and it worked just fine. | ||
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Cyrak
Canada536 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:05 Shade_FR wrote: My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash. Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see! medivacs are balanced after all !" in this topic is a smart idea. You have to consider the players in balance talk. I think you are missing the point of his post.. you are practically devolving into self-parody at this point. When you pick and choose which matches are significant to game balance based on your own self serving bias you aren't convincing anyone. | ||
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1raxexpand
United States165 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:05 Shade_FR wrote: My point is, do you think Flash played better than Life in this Bo7 ? Life was far more superior no matter what. There were some poor decision makings from Flash. Life defended well against Medivacs because he was a better player in this Bo7, I don't think posting "see! medivacs are balanced after all !" in this topic is a smart idea. You have to consider the players in balance talk. Taking players skills into account, we mostly see top korean terrans beating foreigner zergs so we're ok. Even the Last-Stephano series was hardly a surprise. | ||
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pivor
Poland198 Posts
On March 18 2013 11:14 -_- wrote: one of the few zergs who didn't morph fleets of broodlords behind endless lines of sunkens with 10+ slugs to supplement just beat flash when zerg was supposedly weak in hots maybe zergs who based their playstyles on this very simple playstyle have to adjust a tiny bit. since life didn't have to, he hit the ground running. he basically played wol -- his brand of it -- zerg in hots and it worked just fine. the issue was that widow mines where doing nothing | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
It's fun to watch zerg chase medivacs. It just shouldn't be impossible. | ||
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