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I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation.
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On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation.
They will only reduce the splash radius of the Widow, that way a- moving small units doesn't get punished that heavily. So they would become more noob friendly.
While I miss Siege Upgrade, it was needed. There would be no way to survive a push by the opponent if you decide to harass early. And we already see how vulnerable Terran is if they decide to be so harassment heavy in the early game. Only the players that decide to only defend have the biggest problems.
So forcing the other races to be aggressive is a good thing and makes the game interesting.
But we already had this discussion in WoL. Where Zerg early game was almost untouchable, but you needed to attack anyway or they will just macro and overrun you. Keeping up with them was risky as hell because they switch into full army production and run over you.
What Terran does right now seems equally strong as what Zerg pulled of in WoL, but 10 times harder to control.
I think nothing should be changed, until we see people getting used to the situation and how they manage to transition into the lategame. Because the lategame of Zerg with the Viper and the new Ultra is just insane. And if they can reach it to easy, then it will look more one-sided then Broodlord/Infestor.
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Make everythign OP its way funner
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Mech is so broken as fuck.
Im a terran.
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On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation.
Wait.... what? Have u not seen roach pressure, baneling busts, void ray + gateway allin, blink stalker all-ins?
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On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation.
Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend.
Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on.
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On March 18 2013 00:00 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. They will only reduce the splash radius of the Widow, that way a- moving small units doesn't get punished that heavily. So they would become more noob friendly. While I miss Siege Upgrade, it was needed. There would be no way to survive a push by the opponent if you decide to harass early. And we already see how vulnerable Terran is if they decide to be so harassment heavy in the early game. Only the players that decide to only defend have the biggest problems. So forcing the other races to be aggressive is a good thing and makes the game interesting. But we already had this discussion in WoL. Where Zerg early game was almost untouchable, but you needed to attack anyway or they will just macro and overrun you. Keeping up with them was risky as hell because they switch into full army production and run over you. What Terran does right now seems equally strong as what Zerg pulled of in WoL, but 10 times harder to control. I think nothing should be changed, until we see people getting used to the situation and how they manage to transition into the lategame. Because the lategame of Zerg with the Viper and the new Ultra is just insane. And if they can reach it to easy, then it will look more one-sided then Broodlord/Infestor.
equally strong as zerg early game in wol?
No Terran can be greedy(3OC into 1-1-1 double ups) and still herras the Zerg.
Zerg in WoL could only play defensive with that style
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On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:
Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend.
Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on.
Nerfing the tanks would make sense for TvT and thats about it. You aren't seeing most people go for tanks, in TvZ especially, because mines are so cheap, can be reactor'd out, and are pound for pound more efficient and frankly better than tanks. They are more mobile, you get punished less for getting caught without mines down because they can attack at 1 range (where siege tanks getting caught can be game ending). I think the correct path here is to nerf the splash radius, or maybe the damage splash. Lower the damage at the far edge of the blast, and keep the initial damage (like they were doing with seekers).
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I liked this statement and agree with their approach 
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On March 18 2013 00:00 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. They will only reduce the splash radius of the Widow, that way a- moving small units doesn't get punished that heavily. So they would become more noob friendly. While I miss Siege Upgrade, it was needed. There would be no way to survive a push by the opponent if you decide to harass early. And we already see how vulnerable Terran is if they decide to be so harassment heavy in the early game. Only the players that decide to only defend have the biggest problems. So forcing the other races to be aggressive is a good thing and makes the game interesting. But we already had this discussion in WoL. Where Zerg early game was almost untouchable, but you needed to attack anyway or they will just macro and overrun you. Keeping up with them was risky as hell because they switch into full army production and run over you. What Terran does right now seems equally strong as what Zerg pulled of in WoL, but 10 times harder to control. I think nothing should be changed, until we see people getting used to the situation and how they manage to transition into the lategame. Because the lategame of Zerg with the Viper and the new Ultra is just insane. And if they can reach it to easy, then it will look more one-sided then Broodlord/Infestor.
I agree with you on the mine, but the rest of the post... either I don't understand you or you're not making any sense.
I don't see at all how that mirrors Zerg early game in WoL (which, by the way, certainly shouldn't be the template for HotS). Terran wasn't exactly vulnerable in WoL. There is no additional Zerg threat in HotS, therefore this defensive buff, in this matchup, isn't necessary, and it's too much.
I don't want Terran to stop attacking, I just think the matchup will always have problems if there is no Zerg threat at all. There is no trade off, and that's bad RTS gameplay. You're supposed to be somewhat vulnerable to an attack if you don't invest in an army.
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On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on.
The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build.
Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry.
I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably.
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After watching tournament play, I think Zerg definitely deserves a buff. And I don't think Widow Mines need a nerf.
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On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably.
You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness.
lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ.
Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway.
edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw
20min mark, Life vs Last, no tank built, ling, bling muta. nerf tank? what?
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The amount of unjustified whining/crying is unbelievable. No one is saying that there couldn't be something wrong, but to call for the nerf bat immediately when most of the games yesterday were relatively close is just hilarious. This is exactly what ruined WoL in the first place, was the ungodly amount of crying over things that made no sense.
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United States2113 Posts
On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably.
And yet all those zergs except for life and killer lost their ZvTs 0-3 or 0-1, including leenock, stephano, and ret.
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On March 18 2013 01:00 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 00:58 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:56 dacimvrl wrote:On March 18 2013 00:53 MilesTeg wrote:On March 18 2013 00:31 Bagi wrote:On March 17 2013 23:37 MilesTeg wrote:
I agree, medivacs aren't the thing they need to nerf (avilo is right? wow that must be the first time).
The underlying problem here is how safe Terran is early game. There's nothing to keep them honest, you can get a great economy and tech to harassment units with no risk.
What's needed is:
1) Undo this stupid tank buff. It was a horrible idea at the time, it fixed nothing, and we're seeing the result now. There needs to be a timing when Terran is vulnerable if they go 3 OC and 1/1/1.
2) Reduce splash on mines so that they aren't so good defensively. They might lower the cost (in supply for instance) in compensation. Most terrans aren't even going tanks in the early game to defend. Not sure why you would nerf them in particular? If anything it would cripple any new mech styles in TvP where all-ins are already hard to defend. Mine splash radius is something Blizzard has said they are keeping an eye on. The fact that it's there, and the strength of widow mines defensively, means Zergs just don't attack. I could be wrong but I haven't seen many roach/baneling attacks. The reason is that it would be a completely stupid build. Add the possibility of a Zerg attack killing you and suddenly the matchup doesn't look the same. Terran can't get such a good economy, and can't just swarm you with infantry. I think you are wrong. sources: MLG yesterday. A lot of zerg pros went muta-bling with early bust too and roach follow ups. Ret did it pretty well, notably. You'll have to be a bit more specific with your source your holiness. lol, specific? watch the ZvTs yesterday. Leenock and ret both went early lings+baneling bust in their ZvTs. Tanks or mines didn't stop zerg from early harass at all. And like the other guy mentioned, most terrans in tvz didn't even put a tech lab on their factories til mid/late game. Not to mention Innovation only did it to research the burrow speed upgrade for widow mines. Widow mines were much much more prominent in TvZ, thus I don't understand the tank OP QQ. Let me put it this way, in early game, it does not matter at all as ppl were going widow mines instead of tanks anyway, due to cost, production speed, and effectiveness. Nerfing tank won't do jack in TvZ, because you either need a second factory or you have to cut widow mines in favor of tanks - which nobody does anyway. edit: vods are up at MLG.tv btw
Sure, Leenock and Ret tried aggression. They went 0-6 against Terran. Not sure what your point is here.
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all that pain terra suffered the whole time of WOL, im enjoying the rage now :D
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Well, if everything is ok nothing to say lol.
As a terran I still didn't find a response for the protoss 4 gate with mothership core, so yea it's a problem.
For the ignite afterburners I think Blizzard should make it cost energy so that terrans don't overuse it.
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EPT
