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On March 17 2013 15:01 Geos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 14:53 Rabiator wrote:On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
"We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues. Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid. What? Many areas of the game have been altered to appeal to the casual fan base. Just compare SC2 too Broodwar. Over the course of two years I have gone from bronze to masters and what I have learnt is that there is no point in balancing for casuals. I can kill four of my friends(team game only bronze) at the same time by just massing stalkers. They claim stalkers are ridiculously overpowered. As long as you can get ahead by macroing better than any unit composition can appear over powered.
And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move.
In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
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On March 17 2013 15:19 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:01 Geos13 wrote:On March 17 2013 14:53 Rabiator wrote:On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
"We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues. Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid. What? Many areas of the game have been altered to appeal to the casual fan base. Just compare SC2 too Broodwar. Over the course of two years I have gone from bronze to masters and what I have learnt is that there is no point in balancing for casuals. I can kill four of my friends(team game only bronze) at the same time by just massing stalkers. They claim stalkers are ridiculously overpowered. As long as you can get ahead by macroing better than any unit composition can appear over powered. And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move. In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
I admittedly haven't played much broodwar and was incredibly terrible. However after playing SC2 for a year I happened to play Broodwar with a friend who had been able to easily beat anyone in our group of friends. I rolled him because I now understand the importance of macro... Also everything I have heard reinforces my opinion that macro was vital to playing broodwar. Honestly it sounds like you want a game with out the economy side of SC2 which would be so different from SC2 that you might as well find a different game. I think there are custom games that might suit your interest more (marine arena etc.)
Edit: I'm not trying to say you don't have a perfectly valid opinion but just that the game you are describing isn't starcraft. I don't know if there are any RTS games on the market like what you are describing and maybe there should be but I really hope starcraft doesn't become the game you want because then it wouldn't be the game I want
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People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick?
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On March 17 2013 15:19 Rabiator wrote:
And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move.
In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
Honestly, you really need to pick a better angle. It was never that hard to select 12 units, then do the same with the next 12, etc etc. In the end, if you were playing against someone with worse macro, you STILL had a large numbers advantage. Also, to deny a build that focuses on high amounts of units as not strategic is also a fallacy. "I know I'm better at building large amounts of units so I'm just going to outbuild them" is indeed a valid strategic viewpoint.
EDIT: ^ albeit a shallow one.
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On March 05 2013 09:32 prOpSnuffe wrote:
Did blizzard just give up on mech TvP or what? Because right now its still not good enougt too be viable.
Otherwise, im happy that they are taking it slow and not rushing to "fix" anything right away.
Sure seems like it. I said a long time ago that the Widow Mine and Hellbat will just end up being used in conjunction with Bio versus Protoss, and not with Tanks and Thors.
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On March 17 2013 15:39 Bagration wrote:
People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick?
There was quite a bit of korean vs korean today too.
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On March 17 2013 15:49 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:32 prOpSnuffe wrote:
Did blizzard just give up on mech TvP or what? Because right now its still not good enougt too be viable.
Otherwise, im happy that they are taking it slow and not rushing to "fix" anything right away. Sure seems like it. I said a long time ago that the Widow Mine and Hellbat will just end up being used in conjunction with Bio versus Protoss, and not with Tanks and Thors.
I think part of the reason is also that Bio received a massive buff with the turbovacs. Why try to learn a new style when what you were already competitive with is now just flat out better? Although there are so many problems with mech that it is hard to imagine it being viable.
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On March 17 2013 15:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:39 Bagration wrote:
People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick? There was quite a bit of korean vs korean today too.
Life beat Polt (3-2)
Innovation beat Leenock (3-0)
Korean Zerg vs. Korean Terran = 1-1
MC beat Mvp (3-1)
Rain beat Jjakji (3-2)
Korean Protoss vs. Korean Terran = 2-0
Everything else was mirrors.
Conclusion: Not enough data, but seems pretty decent. Let's stop the balance whine until we see some GSL action.
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On March 17 2013 15:59 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 17 2013 15:39 Bagration wrote:
People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick? There was quite a bit of korean vs korean today too. Life beat Polt (3-2) Innovation beat Leenock (3-0) Korean Zerg vs. Korean Terran = 1-1 MC beat Mvp (3-1) Rain beat Jjakji (3-2) Korean Protoss vs. Korean Terran = 2-0 Everything else was mirrors. Conclusion: Not enough data, but seems pretty decent. Let's stop the balance whine until we see some GSL action.
I am not saying to balance based off of this, but I am saying that it wasnt just foreigners getting stomped today.
There was also Polt over Creator that you missed.
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On March 17 2013 15:53 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:39 Bagration wrote:
People trying to draw balance conclusions from top Korean Terrans wrecking foreigners? Can we wait a bit before we drop the nerf hammer so quick? There was quite a bit of korean vs korean today too.
And the Korean non-Terrans performed very well against the Korean Terrans.
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On March 17 2013 15:19 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:01 Geos13 wrote:On March 17 2013 14:53 Rabiator wrote:On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
"We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues. Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid. What? Many areas of the game have been altered to appeal to the casual fan base. Just compare SC2 too Broodwar. Over the course of two years I have gone from bronze to masters and what I have learnt is that there is no point in balancing for casuals. I can kill four of my friends(team game only bronze) at the same time by just massing stalkers. They claim stalkers are ridiculously overpowered. As long as you can get ahead by macroing better than any unit composition can appear over powered. And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move. In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
Oh please. I could roll my friends in SC1 because I knew how to macro and they didn't. We had to go 1v1v1 (near 2v1) for it to be a fair fight.
I made more workers more consistently, expanded more aggressively, and could keep my minerals down better. I won. Just like in SC2.
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On March 17 2013 15:19 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 15:01 Geos13 wrote:On March 17 2013 14:53 Rabiator wrote:On March 05 2013 09:04 Vindicare605 wrote:
"We do somewhat agree that Protoss air, in combination with splash damage units, might be difficult for Zerg to deal with during no-rush 15 minute games in which both sides take an equal number of bases. However, we are not seeing signs of this in pro games. We do see Protoss players attempting this strategy often, but the success rate doesn’t seem high enough for us to deem it overpowered.
The main reason why we feel this way is that it’s difficult for Protoss to keep up in economy while executing this strategy. In pro level tournament games, we’ve seen this army composition countered in many different ways, and we’re pretty sure that even pros haven’t quite developed an optimal counter-strategy for dealing with Protoss air compositions." All this blabbering about pros shows that they either have no clue how to design a game which will be equally difficult for all levels of skill OR that they simply do not care about casuals or low level leagues. Honestly ... SC2 is designed as an eSports game first and foremost and that is a terrible concept, because that allows them to make stupid decisions which basically say "suck it casuals". How can a group of friends have fun playing the game if one race is significantly easier to play with "winning strategy X"? Stupid ... juust stupid. What? Many areas of the game have been altered to appeal to the casual fan base. Just compare SC2 too Broodwar. Over the course of two years I have gone from bronze to masters and what I have learnt is that there is no point in balancing for casuals. I can kill four of my friends(team game only bronze) at the same time by just massing stalkers. They claim stalkers are ridiculously overpowered. As long as you can get ahead by macroing better than any unit composition can appear over powered. And that is one of the problems. It is "balanced around macroing" and not about strategy and playing smart. All you need to do is macro macro macro and then a-move. In a game of Broodwar you could still play against your friends and not be ridiculously overpowered, because everyone is limited by the unit movement and the 12 unit selection limit. Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
I think you must be really terrible at BW, because I find that to be completely not the case. I've literally never lost a single game against any of my friends who play BW, with any race and against any race. In SC2 however I've lost a handful of games against some of them.
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Here is food for thought for the 99% knee jerk people in the community that keep saying to "NERF TERRAN! NERF MEDIVAC OMG"
a) Mutalisks are faster than they are in wings of liberty/Hydralisks are faster + more accessible with vipers
b) phoenix have 1 extra range and stargate openings PvT are more common with oracles
c) mech is buffed TvT with hellbat/widow mine
d) viper abduct/spore requires no evo
e) planetary nexus defense
The list goes on. You have to look at all of this together. Imagine medivacs with no speed boost in HOTS vs all of these new things from the other races. Do you understand now?
Dropping would be even more impossible than in wings of liberty in which by the end of wings, Terran drops were non-existent because everyone figured out how to turtle with templar in TvP, turtle with spine/spore/infestor TvZ, and turtle with missile turrets+sensor tower TvT.
The only reason this looks "OP" is because HOTS is a 10x more balanced/exciting or rather HIGHER SKILL CAP game than the end of Lings of liberty ever could be. All of the top players at this MLG have been KOREAN TERRANS, dominating foreigners regardless if they were Z/P/T because the new drop potential from the medivac boost allows superior players to use their multi-tasking for multi-pronged aggression.
About 50/50 of korean Terran, Protoss, and Zerg advanced through the brackets, it is only Terran tilted because there's more korean Terrans at the tournament.
We even saw MC as the first brave soul to use and abuse oracles and the all-in dice roll "did i oracle or not oracle-metagame" vs MVP.
People in the community have no fucking clue about balance and would rather see Terran nerfed into the ground again, it's quite sad. Once again, re-read the list. There's a ton of reasons why the medivac has this new speed boost that are completely justified, and it would look massively underpowered vs HOTS new threats if the community whines enough to influence blizzard like they did during WOL to nerf things that actually aren't problems or already were solved by the players themselves.
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On March 17 2013 18:41 avilo wrote:
Here is food for thought for the 99% knee jerk people in the community that keep saying to "NERF TERRAN! NERF MEDIVAC OMG"
a) Mutalisks are faster than they are in wings of liberty/Hydralisks are faster + more accessible with vipers
b) phoenix have 1 extra range and stargate openings PvT are more common with oracles
c) mech is buffed TvT with hellbat/widow mine
d) viper abduct/spore requires no evo
e) planetary nexus defense
The list goes on. You have to look at all of this together. Imagine medivacs with no speed boost in HOTS vs all of these new things from the other races. Do you understand now?
Dropping would be even more impossible than in wings of liberty in which by the end of wings, Terran drops were non-existent because everyone figured out how to turtle with templar in TvP, turtle with spine/spore/infestor TvZ, and turtle with missile turrets+sensor tower TvT.
The only reason this looks "OP" is because HOTS is a 10x more balanced/exciting or rather HIGHER SKILL CAP game than the end of Lings of liberty ever could be. All of the top players at this MLG have been KOREAN TERRANS, dominating foreigners regardless if they were Z/P/T because the new drop potential from the medivac boost allows superior players to use their multi-tasking for multi-pronged aggression.
About 50/50 of korean Terran, Protoss, and Zerg advanced through the brackets, it is only Terran tilted because there's more korean Terrans at the tournament.
We even saw MC as the first brave soul to use and abuse oracles and the all-in dice roll "did i oracle or not oracle-metagame" vs MVP.
People in the community have no fucking clue about balance and would rather see Terran nerfed into the ground again, it's quite sad. Once again, re-read the list. There's a ton of reasons why the medivac has this new speed boost that are completely justified, and it would look massively underpowered vs HOTS new threats if the community whines enough to influence blizzard like they did during WOL to nerf things that actually aren't problems or already were solved by the players themselves.
"end of Lings of liberty" really? Lings were broken?
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On March 17 2013 18:54 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 18:41 avilo wrote:
Here is food for thought for the 99% knee jerk people in the community that keep saying to "NERF TERRAN! NERF MEDIVAC OMG"
a) Mutalisks are faster than they are in wings of liberty/Hydralisks are faster + more accessible with vipers
b) phoenix have 1 extra range and stargate openings PvT are more common with oracles
c) mech is buffed TvT with hellbat/widow mine
d) viper abduct/spore requires no evo
e) planetary nexus defense
The list goes on. You have to look at all of this together. Imagine medivacs with no speed boost in HOTS vs all of these new things from the other races. Do you understand now?
Dropping would be even more impossible than in wings of liberty in which by the end of wings, Terran drops were non-existent because everyone figured out how to turtle with templar in TvP, turtle with spine/spore/infestor TvZ, and turtle with missile turrets+sensor tower TvT.
The only reason this looks "OP" is because HOTS is a 10x more balanced/exciting or rather HIGHER SKILL CAP game than the end of Lings of liberty ever could be. All of the top players at this MLG have been KOREAN TERRANS, dominating foreigners regardless if they were Z/P/T because the new drop potential from the medivac boost allows superior players to use their multi-tasking for multi-pronged aggression.
About 50/50 of korean Terran, Protoss, and Zerg advanced through the brackets, it is only Terran tilted because there's more korean Terrans at the tournament.
We even saw MC as the first brave soul to use and abuse oracles and the all-in dice roll "did i oracle or not oracle-metagame" vs MVP.
People in the community have no fucking clue about balance and would rather see Terran nerfed into the ground again, it's quite sad. Once again, re-read the list. There's a ton of reasons why the medivac has this new speed boost that are completely justified, and it would look massively underpowered vs HOTS new threats if the community whines enough to influence blizzard like they did during WOL to nerf things that actually aren't problems or already were solved by the players themselves.
"end of Lings of liberty" really? Lings were broken?
Nope, but it is a jab at zergs dominance at the end of WoL.
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I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
E. Can't believe Rabiator isn't banned and it still trolling people with this "BW is more casual"-bullcrap.
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On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote:
I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
A cooldown increase would be way better compared to an energy cost. Medivacs already struggle with energy healing any mid-large bioforce. I'd rather have the pros pick between using the speed for entry or exit.
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Unlimited unit selection is NOT GOOD for casuals ...
I'm sorry, but 12 unit selection was frustrating as fuck as a casual, wanna select your army? nope. 12 at a time!
Obviously it add's alot at higher levels, but for someone completely new to RTS games it makes no sense.
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being zerg myself i'd say that most of the mlg-zergs did not pick up on hots changes. Some WOL styles seem not to not work anymore that well ..
If you have a deeper look at the zerg changes, you can see that zerg now has more gas-spending options, so Hots Zerg can opt for a more gas oriented economy (expanding slower), which also makes earlier zerg tech more viable.
Regarding speedvacs .. players refuse to build static defense categorically. I know bout the downside of static defense, however terrans also need turrets to defend muta rushes ? Let's wait and see ..
What's looking crippling/OP to me are widow mines. When used well, they shut down/cripple most typical zerg play such as run-by's, muta harrass, quick reinforcements, creep spread, ling bane surrounds ..
I dont't think they can stay this way, as any counter is very APM intensive. So a widow mine/Drop play is hard to stop if both players are at same skill.
However the Terran changes will bring more balance to lower level play and might attract some more terran players. They have gotten rare on the ladder  (
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On March 17 2013 18:59 Bagi wrote:
I agree with Avilo that medivac speed is necessary and a good thing to have in the game (separate the good from the bad), but I think everyone can agree that its slightly too strong in its current form.
Either give the ability a small energy cost or double the cooldown, An energy cost would force terrans to choose between boosting and healing. A longer cooldown would make terrans choose between boosting into a base and out of it, in most cases you won't be able to do both.
E. Can't believe Rabiator isn't banned and it still trolling people with this "BW is more casual"-bullcrap.
No, see, this is the issue. "Everyone can agree that it's slightly too strong" is irrelevant, because that is based on virtually zero data. It'd be like me seeing two games of banelings rolling through clumped marines and saying the same.
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EPT
