EPTI really like the time supply capped measurement, though. THAT is going to make people improve a lot. It is a number that makes you feel embarrassed, so you can actually try to improve.
The new in-game APM. - Page 2
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TiTanIum_
Brazil1335 Posts
I really like the time supply capped measurement, though. THAT is going to make people improve a lot. It is a number that makes you feel embarrassed, so you can actually try to improve. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On February 21 2013 00:45 n0ise wrote: Ye, seriously. It's already a mostly useless stat, since apm != multitasking, so just leave apm = actions / minute (crazy right??) and be done with it. Also, I really wanna know what values merz is getting I read that as "apm entails multitasking" You meant "=/=", right? | ||
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syriuszonito
Poland332 Posts
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n0ise
3452 Posts
On February 21 2013 00:54 Ghanburighan wrote: I read that as "apm entails multitasking" You meant "=/=", right? A != B means "A is not equal to B" /= also works, I guess. But, no, generally, I think "!=" represents "not equal to". | ||
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Gamer_Girl
14 Posts
On February 21 2013 00:20 Technique wrote: It's just some fake apm to make everyone feel good. Yeah I have to agree with this, its probably just fake spam APM to make the noobies feel great as if they are accomplishing something. Really useless stuff for competitive players and pros. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
Also, it was funny earlier in HOTS beta when games were running at slow speed (not because of lag, but actually at slow speed, it was a bug of some type) and I would have 400+ APM, though playing Zerg I still have over 300 APM when playing a normal game. The production must really mess with it or something. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19229 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On February 21 2013 01:03 n0ise wrote: A != B means "A is not equal to B" /= also works, I guess. But, no, generally, I think "!=" represents "not equal to". I believe he is referring to mathematical notation, not code? | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
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Snoodles
401 Posts
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d00p
711 Posts
On February 21 2013 00:31 Jarree wrote: I played HOTS placements matches a few weeks back, and my bronze opponent had like 200 APM. I guess it made him feel good too! So i'm all for it gj Blizz There are at least plat level NA/EU players in the HotS beta bronze. Just saying, though 1) 200 is high for even that level and 2) it's definitely inflated in some weird way. I had a bump of almost 200 apm in the beta I think. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
On February 21 2013 00:54 Ghanburighan wrote: I read that as "apm entails multitasking" You meant "=/=", right? It's programmer talk, != means not equal in most languages. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3291 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
2 Base Templar PvT Intro Colossus builds have been prevalent throughout HotS, but some players (First, Parting, Flying and sOs in particular) have been going for Templar first play with great success. The HotS changes impacted this playstyle greatly, thanks to a cheaper dark shrine and, more importantly, the added defensive capabilities of the mothership core and the power of faster warp prisms. Indeed, the biggest advantage given by not rushing colossus tech is that your robo build time is freed up, allowing you to invest in a fast observer network and warp prisms. These two tools are extremely valuable in defending a well timed third base, harassing and keeping map control. The ability of stressing an opponent’s multitasking and forcing mistakes is very powerful, and it’s very rewarding to beat an opponent while forcing and punishing mistake after mistake. Many consider this style harder to pull off than colossus play, but it’s way more fun and actually not that difficult to master. Personally, after about one year of playing exclusively templar first builds I am much better with this than with colossus play, and I find it to be easier to execute too. Early Game This style opens with some sort of fast expand to get a strong economy going. There are many different variations on 1gate Fe out there; my favorite variation (stolen and adapted from NonY) is the following:
You should be using your initial probe and stalker to poke around the map and get a read on what your opponent is doing; clearing the xel’naga towers from the reaper with your stalker is particularly useful since it keeps your opponent in the dark. The things you should be worried about are:
Be aware of the timings at which any push might come. As a general rule, if he is including a reasonably fast CC (around 4:30) his push/drop will hit between the 8:00 and 8:30 minute mark while if he decides to delay his CC he will attack at about 7:00, or even 6:00 if he opened gas first. As you scout, look for:
Your build changes slightly to adapt to what the Terran is doing. If he goes for 3rax+medivac you should get a Sentry as your 4th gateway unit and immediately get 2extra gates and tech going; the specific build orders are written in the next section. If he’s trying to do harassment on the other hand you have to play more carefully. Get defensive cannons before the extra gates as well as a stalker instead of a second sentry for some extra DPS. Keep the msc in the main grouped with an observer if the cannons are late, and be ready to use a nexus cannon in the main while warping in extra reinforcements; pull probes away and let the cannon and planetary nexus finish off the dropped widow mines and marines. At this stage you should be extremely careful with your main army. Do not commit it to the main to try and snipe the medivac or clear off the drop faster unless you know the units dropped are the only ones out on the map. A popular variation on widow mine drops is to delay the CC to get 4 hellions and go for a runby into the natural, hoping your army will be busy in the main. A single cannon can not take down all the hellions before they roast half your probes, which is why you need to play safely. screenshot of defensive cannons started If he kills 6 or so probes you should be about even, if he kills less you are ahead, and if he kills more you are behind. Mid Game Once your Natural is well saturated take the gasses there; normally this is at around the 7 minute mark as with most PvT builds. From here on go up to 2 sentries and then start teching up to charge and templar and keep the upgrades going, while the Terran starts his midgame pressure as he takes his third. Against a medivac push, do the following build:
Assuming you are playing against a medivac timing, rally the warp prism across the map and get ready to drop 4 zealots in his main slightly after seeing him move out, when his army is about one third of the way across the map. This move is essential, as it buys time for your storm and +2 armor to complete and for the extra gates to kick in. While in WoL it was impossible to hold a medivac timing if you went for storm, robo and upgrades at the same time, the added dps of the mothership core means you can be slightly greedier, getting a faster storm and pressuring with the warp prism while still being able to defend thanks to feedback and an archon. If he tries to commit to his medivac timing while ignoring the zealots in the main you should defend with chargelot/archon plus the nexus cannon, trying to feedback the medivacs before morphing the archon. Meanwhile, he’s going to lose addons, scv’s and reinforcements to your dropped zealots, which are incredibly strong if the Terran doesn’t micro against them (and unless he is Innovation, he can’t micro on two fronts at the same time). Depending on the map layout it might be easier or harder to get zealots into the mineral line. If you can’t hit it you can still go after addons or key buildings like armories and ebays. Taking out the reactor on his starport is particularly strong. screenshot of zealots wrecking shit If instead he is going mech or 3cc you can be greedy and take your third off 3 gates before getting your infrastructure up, while teching normally. If he is playing greedy try to match his greed; cut units shortly for production facilities and a second forge instead of making a defensive army that won’t be useful when he isn’t going to push. You still want to get a warp prism out eventually but you don’t need it as fast: get observers in position first, increase your templar count and start immortal production if he goes mech. Vods ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/0b/Vod.png) Parting vs. Flash on Daybreak from WCS KR Season 1. Against medivac timing. sOs vs.Taeja on Star Station from WCS KR Season 1.Against marine/widow mine drop Parting vs. TY on Naro Station from Proleague. Delayed robo vs Medivac timing. Parting vs. TY on Naro Station from Proleague. Delayed robo vs Medivac timing. Alicia vs. Apocalypse on Naro Station from WCS NA Season 1. Against Medivac timing. Rain vs. Fantasy on Akilon Wastes from WCS KR Season 2. Against Marine/hellion push into 3cc.Variations Robo/Forge/twilight builds are extremely versatile, and they have various follow-ups they can go into. The most common ones are: DT drop A popular option is to go for a DT drop off 2bases, delaying storm and charge in exchange for much more powerful harassment. While this variation can be done against any build, it can be somewhat tricky to hold off a medivac timing, and depending on how well the Terran defends the DT's you can be severely behind. On the other hand, it's a great choice against harassment builds, and was extremely popular before the hellbat nerf when terrans were rushing for a starport and armory rather than going for medivac pushes. (when behind, dark shrine. Or when ahead; screenshot of yoshi's workers being killed) Here is a recommended build order against a medivac timing:
The goal of the DT’s is to delay him and punish him for getting caught out of position or for messing up earlier in the game, while allowing you to take a normally timed third with a relatively small army. Because DT’s are such a big investment, you have to be extremely careful with them: do not suicide them and do not overmake them. As usual, the general rule is to go up to 6 or 7 gates before taking a third against bio timings, and to do it faster against 3cc or mech. To strengthen your army, mix in some (2-4) immortals after you get the warp prism out. First vs. Fantasy on Whirlwind from WCS KR Season 2. Against marine/hellion push into hellbat drop. Rain vs. Bomber on Newkirk Preecint from WCS KR Season 2. Against hellbat drop. Super vs. Marineking on DMZ from GSTL. Against Medivac timing. sOs vs. Marineking on Star Station from WCS KR Season 1. Failed defense against Medivac timing. sOs vs. Marineking on Daybreak from WCS KR Season 1. Against Medivac timing. sOs vs. Fantasy on Bel'shir Vestige from Proleague. Against hellbat drop. Dear vs. Cure on Fighting Spirit from Proleague. Against marine/widow mine push into hellbat drop. Trap vs. Supernova on Anaconda from WCS KR Season 2. Against proxy mine. Trap vs. Maru on Akilon Wastes from WCS KR Season 2. Against marine/widow mine push into hellbat drop.Storm drop rush Similar to the DT drop, this is a build Trap utilized against Supernova on Akilon Wastes. The idea behind it is fairly similar to the standard chargelot build: get just enough to hold a straight up push, while harassing and killing as many scvs as possible with a warp prism. Because it’s close to impossible to get storm done together with a robo and upgrades against a medivac push, this build delays the forge, focusing on faster templar tech and a robo instead.
Trap vs. Supernova on Akilon Wastes from WCS KR Season 2. Against blueflame hellbat drop.Immortal/archon timing The most aggressive variation of 2base robo/twilight, this build was used first by KT protoss players. It delays storm in favor of a faster second forge, archons and immortals, to go for a powerful midgame timing that can easily break any unprepared opponent without being an outright all-in build. It is also very strong against mech on maps with a fairly open space in front of the third such as Planet S and Whirlwind. Jaypower already covered this build here Defending the Third and transitioning Defending your third is a matter of correct positioning, good micro and good scouting. In general, templar are much stronger defensively than colossi, while having less potential for straight up attacks (more on this later). At this point you should have 4 observers out on the map keeping watch on the Terran. I like to keep 3 close to my bases, watching for drops and pushes, while having one out scouting what he’s doing. The things you are looking for are his 3rd cc as well as its timing, plus some more opportunities to sneak zealots/dts in his main and/or third and do more damage. As a general rule: 3rax>cc>5rax means light aggression after the medivac push and a more passive Terran until his 2/2 completes. 3rax>>5rax>>cc means heavy aggression coming your way. 5+rax and no 3rd cc means a likely incoming 2base allin, with an scv paintrain. The remaining 3 observers should be moved in key locations to watch your bases and make sure you know where his army is. Here are a few screenshots of good observer spots on ladder maps: + Show Spoiler + Start a second forge when you see him taking a third, get ready for the longer game with colossus/blink tech or go for a timing if you want to finish the game faster. Transitioning into colossus is fairly game dependant. If your opponent is being very aggressive you want to do it more slowly, getting a good gateway count up first (8-10) and making sure you have good drop defense ready with 1-2 cannons and a templar in position. Going double robo is risky against a very aggressive opponent, and many Korean pros in fact prefer sticking to a single robo for a while. On the other hand, if he’s playing very passively and/or your harassment did lots of damage and/or you are ahead because you killed many of his medivacs or successfully defended an aggressive push, you can afford to be greedier with a double robo before any extra warpgates. At this point it’s vital to buy as much time as possible for your econ and second tech to kick in, so remain active with your harassment; remember to replace the warp prism if you lost it earlier on. You can start mixing in storm drops as well, which are devastating against an unprepared or slow opponent. Get pylons on the map, especially near his third and fourth, and warp in zealots from there: your robo time isn’t free anymore as you switch to colossus, so you can’t afford to remake warp prisms as easily, especially off a single robo. (screenshot of map control/harassment) As you get close to maxing out you also want to tech to blink while trading away a few zealots for more gas intensive units like colossi, archons, extra templars spread all over the map and a group of blink stalkers, so keep up the runbys and harassment! A second possibility is to not go for colossus for a while and stick to pure gateway units for longer, going up to 11/12 gates. This is harder to pull off and much more micro intensive, but if you are either ahead from the early/midgame or he’s still 2basing you, it can be a strong option. If you want to finish the game faster, try to use your warp prism to draw him out of position while going for a strong 3base, mass warpgate attack before he can get enough ghosts or hellbats to stop your templar army. With this style you can play more aggressively, harass for longer and deny the terran’s 4th while taking your own, but your maxed army will be weaker than with a colossus switch. Note that eventually you are forced into having both aoe units; get colossus tech up after taking your 4th at the latest. (finishing the game off with pure gate units) A final possible transition, still very unexplored, is skipping colossus entirely and going for tempests on 3bases, using them to siege and zone out terran units while the high templar protect them. Because this style is very new and not nearly close to figured out I won’t talk about it In depth, but it might be worth playing around with it on some maps. FAQs Is this style viable on every map? Yep! I am in league x, am I ready to do this build or is it too hard for me? Hell yeah, go for it. It takes practice but it’s really damn fun, so why not. Worst case scenario grab a practice partner or play unranked. I’ve played this style for so long I actually find it easier than colossus builds now. If you find it too hard to execute try cutting out the warp prism harassment at first. He did a weird push before medivacs and killed me because I was too greedy, how can I hold it? You should be able to hold most pushes thanks to the mothership core and careful scouting. To make sure you see any kind of push coming before your observer crosses the map and scouts him, keep the initial stalker in front of his nat and watch the minimap carefully. This isn’t as important as it was in WoL, but it’s very useful regardless. Cut tech and chrono out units the instant you see him moving out. Why a single forge and not double forge? I have never been a big fan of fast 2base double forge together with templar play. There is a timing when you want to get 3/3 and a bunch of templar up with it but the gas is never enough, so what usually happens is the 3/3 gets delayed. I personally think that if you are going to delay 3/3 a bit then you might as well go for the single forge and maximize the number of units you can get. Additionally, you can get the forge extremely quickly without being punished, which makes your upgrades very fast anyway as well as helping in defending various harassment builds. Is it possible to play aggressively with this build? Are there any timings to hit? If you try to push across the map with a chargelot/templar army and meet him halfway through the map your zealots will get kited while leaving the templar behind and unable to land any storms. On the other hand, if he is attacking into you he will run straight toward the templar, exposing himself to storm (and making you feel fucking awesome when you land them). It’s also easier to land storms when your opponent is bunched up and backed in a corner, for example at his natural expansion. Keeping this in mind, while it is possible to play aggressively with this army composition, it’s a lot easier to defend and harass with it, especially because the Terran can’t really micro on two fronts effectively, making your chargelots deadly. With a colossus army you might be able to amove across the map and win, but with a gateway army you need more careful positioning and army movement or you risk missing key storms or losing zealots for nothing. For example in one of the linked games, Trap loses against supernova because he wastes 3-4 storms trying to break a third that wasn’t even started yet, and as a result he doesn’t have enough to defend supernova’s counter attack despite having +3 armor and a superior economy. That said, the warp prisms really help with keeping the terran back, so it’s possible to push across the map once storm and a key upgrade (like +2 or +3 armor) is done, especially if you are ahead after defending a timing or harassing him. What do I do against mech? I believe that this kind of opening is superior vs mech compared to colossus builds. You have more map control, harassment tools, a fast third and access to immortals early on, all of which are very strong in that spot. Obviously, you need to add immortals to your composition to take care of the tanks. Try to engage him in the open field while he’s unsieged, and if you can bring a warp prism to drop or warp zealots on top of his tanks for extra man points. Additionally, storm does pretty well against hellbats and hellions, and it lets your zealots and immortals close in on the tanks. I like going double robo immortal as well once I secure my third. What do I do if he’s doing a 2base allin with thor/banshee or tank/banshee? Against that kind of allin you can easily get storm up in time, so go for it asap while getting your immortal count up. A good sample vod of such a hold (even though it’s a wol game) is Hero vs Supernova on Atlantis Spaceship. How can I land storms when he has a very high ghost count? I won’t go in the details of lategame PvT as kcdc already covered them a while ago, but you want to keep some templar spread out as much as possible and hidden in weird, random locations all over the map. In a straight up fight you will definitely lose without landing storms and it’s almost impossible to micro effectively against high ghost counts: your only choice is to surprise the terran from awkward angles, forcing him to eat storm after storm as he moves on the map while you avoid engaging with your main army. If you can land a couple of good storms or feedbacks and get his army lower on health you can engage and kill him. | ||
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maregemini
Serbia18 Posts
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mainerd
United States347 Posts
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Warpish
834 Posts
On February 21 2013 00:29 FLuE wrote: I don't really understand it. Press a button, record an action. Number of times that happens in a minute is actions per minute. Seems simple enough. Don't even get started on the Blizzard minute vs. actual minute either.... Yes, it's really hard to understand what justifies an abomination like Blizzard minutes. I really can't wrap my head around it. | ||
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kill619
United States212 Posts
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NeonFlare
Finland1307 Posts
On February 21 2013 01:33 Warpish wrote: Yes, it really hard to understand what justifies an abomination like Blizzard minutes. I really can't wrap my head around it. Somebody liked the idea of Valve time and decided to make their own at Blizzard. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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