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Team League Match Formats - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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LockeTazeline
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
2390 Posts
February 17 2013 05:53 GMT
#21
Wow, this is actually really cool. I'd love to see a teamleague like this.
Pangpootata
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1838 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-17 07:48:58
February 17 2013 07:43 GMT
#22
Dreamleague format is almost similar to this, except in the case where A, B from team 1 and E, F from team 2 win, instead of A vs E and B vs F it becomes A vs E, then winnner fights B or F, and so on i.e. allkill format of the winners from the first round of matches. Also, there are 5 initial matches.

For example, the 10-11 grand final was
+ Show Spoiler +
(T)BByong > (P)Trap
(Z)Where > (Z)hyvaa
(T)Mong < (T)Classic
(T)Rush < (T)Last
(Z)SonGDuri > (Z)Progamer
Winner set 1 (Z)SonGDuri < (T)Last
Winner set 2 (T)BByong > (T)Last
Winner set 3 (T)BByong > (T)Classic

CJ Entus 5:3 STX SouL
saroir
Profile Joined December 2011
Germany244 Posts
February 17 2013 07:52 GMT
#23
i think this would result in ridiciulous long matches with only 4 players per team like in winners league.

i heavily perefer the current SPL mix of 4 rounds proleague and 2 rounds winners league format
lord_nibbler
Profile Joined March 2004
Germany591 Posts
February 17 2013 08:48 GMT
#24
On February 17 2013 16:52 saroir wrote:
i think this would result in ridiciulous long matches with only 4 players per team like in winners league.

Yes, it would use less players compared to the All-Kill format.

But that could be an advantage for some situations. Say you are a tournament organizer and you want to fly in some teams. You would safe a lot on tickets while getting the same "value".

Also, while Korean teams are huge with practice partners and everything, western team are a lot smaller. So while for example a game between the 5th best player in SKT1 against the 5th best in Khan is still somewhat interesting, a game between the 5th bests from Karont3 and Alien Invasion does not really produce much interest at all.
MCXD
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Australia2738 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-17 09:34:40
February 17 2013 09:33 GMT
#25
I don't really see how the matches would be any longer. All-kill is 5 to 9 games, and this is also 5 to 9 games (in Bo9). The only added length is the time required to decide who plays on what map before the 2nd round, and that's maybe 3-4 minutes at most, and entirely irrelevant for any tourney casted from replays.

However most of the other concerns certainly are valid ones.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28512 Posts
February 17 2013 09:56 GMT
#26
Nice format and it provides for some extra variety which is always good.
i heavily prefer the current SPL mix of 4 rounds proleague and 2 rounds winners league format

How about 2x (away & home) proleague, 2x winners and 2x this?
I Protoss winner, could it be?
bertu
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Brazil871 Posts
February 17 2013 10:01 GMT
#27
I don't like this format at all. Not only it is overly complicated, I think it combines the worse of two worlds. You lose all the cool strategy aspects of the "all-kill" format (preparing snipers, eliminating maps etc) while not requiring teams to be balanced (opposed to classic PL format), since there still can be a super ace the wins all games and carry his teams.

This doesn't make any sense for me. It doesn't bring anything relevant while giving up the best aspects of all-kill format.

The only perceived "advantage" over a traditional all-kill format is forcing more matches to be 5-X instead of 5-0, but this doesn't have an actual influence in the relevant outcome (team WIN or team LOSS), so it's not a real advantage.

In all-kill format, there is a dance involving the aces and the support crew. A non "ace X ace" match matter because a team is trying to eliminate bad maps, or because they can send snipers with prepared strategies for certain maps, or force the other team to send strategic players (snipers, bad matchups) at an uncomfortable time, or many other reasons

In your format, other matches are being played because they have to be played.

SEKO SEKO SEKO
HellYeaHH
Profile Joined June 2012
Netherlands6 Posts
February 17 2013 21:11 GMT
#28
I'd love to see some pro level 2v2's. However I doubt something like that will ever happen. One way of doing this could be a Davis Cup (Tennis) kind of set up, which is 4 singles and 1 double.

I think the best thing I can hope for is a 2v2 showmatch after each round
Shkudde
Profile Joined February 2011
Netherlands709 Posts
February 17 2013 21:19 GMT
#29
I like how this would work out, but I do see one problem.

This would probably mean that we will see much mcuh less of a team's second-rate players/B-teamers in team-league situations.
I understand that this can also be seen as a good thing, since we'll see more of our favourite/well-known players.
But seeing random B-teamers that I've never heard of is one of the charms of team-leagues in my experience.
That's how Life first made a name for himself for example.

But the principle would lead to very interesting matches, so I'd love to see experimentation with it (EGMCSL maybe?).
$O$ | herO[jOin] | Zest hwaiting!
WinterTV
Profile Joined February 2011
United States297 Posts
February 22 2013 03:51 GMT
#30
Hmm where to begin.... I like this idea and it is an interesting alternative.

First let's talk about some of the criticism thus far.

1. "This format is complicated."
How is it complicated? It's a linear match format that involves BO1s and players are eliminated after losing. In terms of the progression of the match, the only difference is you’re seeing a different winner each round. Obviously, it’s a separate BO1. Sure, the format requires 1 or 2 additional rules to stipulate a team going up 3-1 (in a BO7) in the first round, but let's be honest.... if you can't understand that I doubt you're getting much out of watching an SC2 match in the first place.

2. "This format will take longer than other formats."
Yes, the AK/winners format has the potential for being the most time efficient -if- the winning team is capable of a 5-0. In the grand scheme of things this does not happen very often. So I really don't think it's worth talking about. Both the OP’s format and the AK style format have the potential for going to 9 games, or being finished in 5. If you compared the format between two highly skilled teams I’m quite sure there would be little time difference even if you had them play each format 50 times.

As for those talking about the pro league style with multiple BO3s, or a variation with BO3s -and- AK/winner’s formatted rounds in a single match; these formats will obviously take longer as they feature roughly the same amount of players playing each other in more than one game.

3. You can’t feature as many players with this format.”
What? In any standard (commonly used) format where you require 5 of 9 wins, you will only ever see a max of 5 players from a single team.

4. “We won’t see as many B team players with this format.”
In this format you would require a minimum of 5 games played by 5 players win or lose to start out the match. A top heavy team in the AK/winner’s format can get away with winning 5-0 by sending their ace player in first. So you definitely don’t see any B teamers there, except from the losing team perhaps. With the OP’s format you might have 1 top heavy team with 1 or 2 ‘ace’ players and 3 ‘average’ masters players play a team of 5 ‘average’ players. With his format you atleast get to see 5 players from each team play regardless; even if the second team were to get 5-0’d.

Alternately, Pro League’s format you see the same amount of players fielded in a BO9 as you would here, there are just more games played from each person because of BO3s. This also makes the match longer overall and thus harder to cover in a time efficient and cohesive manner.


So... now let’s talk about the strengths of this match format.
1. It allows for a linear match format - you’re casting a series of BO1s, just as you do in the winners/AK format. Easy to cast and cover cohesively and entirely in a time efficient manner.
2. You require a minimum of 5 players participation from either team in a BO9. This guarantees we see more than just a team’s ‘Ace’ dominating an entire match.
3. If the team is top heavy, and in a BO9 is down 1-4 after the first round, their ace still has the potential of building the heroic comeback reverse all kill in the 2nd/3rd rounds.
4. If one team is simply far superior than the other, you will see a resulting 5-0, but you’ll know that the entire team worked together to make that 5-0, not just their ace player all killing.
5. The matches are BO1s, so you can cast them in succession, build the hype and importance of a certain player winning or being eliminated before round 2 (especially if the series is close). This would be done in a very similar fashion to the AK/winner’s format. In round 2 of a close match, the storyline can shift to focus on the remaining winners or ace players ability to pull through for their team.
6. Strategical depth of who to field on what map verse which player is increased because there are a minimum number of players required to be fielded in round 1. I.E. Map specific snipers, verse race/MU specific snipers, vs player/player style specific snipers, vs pairing your team’s ‘ace’ vs the others to knock him out in Rd. 1 and so on on.


The only other way or format I know of to accomplish -all- 6 advantages above is with the following:
+ Show Spoiler +
You take the AK/winner’s format and add 1 stipulation: A player can only win a maximum of 2 games and then must be rotated out for a new player.

Example 1 - In a BO9 - Team LG IM vs Prime - LG-IM Sweeps 5-0

G1: LGIM 1-0 Prime Losira vs. Maru
G2: LGM 2-0 Prime Losira vs. Marineking (Losira now 2-0, must swap out)
G3: LGIM 3-0 Prime Nestea vs. Byun
G4 LGIM 4-0 Prime Nestea vs. Classic (Nestea now 2-0, must swap out)
G5 LGIM 5-0 Prime SeeD vs. Creator

Example 2 - The same match but with a much closer result: LG IM 5-4 Prime

G1: LGIM 1-0 Prime Losira vs. Maru
G2: LGIM 2-0 Prime Losira vs. Marineking (Losira now 2-0, must swap out)
G3: LGIM 2-1 Prime Nestea vs. Byun
G4: LGIM 2-2 Prime Seed vs. Byun (Byun now 2-0, must swap out)
G5: LGIM 3-2 Prime Nestea vs. Classic
G6: LGIM 3-3 Prime Nestea vs. Creator
G7: LGIM 3-4 Prime SeeD vs. Creator (Creator 2-0, must swap out)
G8: LGIM 4-4 Prime MVP vs. Terius
G9: LGIM 5-4 Prime MVP vs. Lucy

What I love about this format is that it adheres to the 6 advantages mentioned above. It also maintains the same style or building a story as the AK/winner’s format while adding a bit more depth to the strategy of which players to field and when. A team can not rely on a single ace player to win the match, they must have at least 2, and a seriously consistent sniper to get a 5-0.



Something else I would like to suggest for the OP’s format if it were to be incorporated into a league:


One thing I did not see mentioned as a possibility (and something I think more leagues should include) is the mechanic of home/away games.

A team league that hosted 16 teams which played 2 matches a week over an 8 week period would allow a 2 month season where each team plays each other twice. This allows for teams to prove themselves twice per season prior to playoffs and more versatility with a home/away system. Perhaps when a team is away they are required to announce their first player on the first map first, or their entire 4 player roster first and allow the home team to decide accordingly.

Each team gets the home advantage against every opponent. It adds a layer of strategy to the team player-fielding meta game through the entire season. It also maintains the similar level of strategy in how a team fields their players seen in the AK/winners format. You can still use a player to snipe for a specific map, specific race, specific player, etc depending on whether or not you're the home team for that match.
@wintersc2
iMrising
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
United States1099 Posts
February 22 2013 04:29 GMT
#31
If something like the GSTL, proleague, or IPTL used this I would actually be very very very interested if they used this.
Very well thought out! I hope some representative reads this and takes it into consideration. I really doubt it would be used though, but I hope that it really becomes a possibility in the future

Explained very thoroughly! nice job!
$O$ | soO
Arceus
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Vietnam8333 Posts
February 22 2013 04:35 GMT
#32
On February 22 2013 12:51 WinterTV wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Hmm where to begin.... I like this idea and it is an interesting alternative.

First let's talk about some of the criticism thus far.

1. "This format is complicated."
How is it complicated? It's a linear match format that involves BO1s and players are eliminated after losing. In terms of the progression of the match, the only difference is you’re seeing a different winner each round. Obviously, it’s a separate BO1. Sure, the format requires 1 or 2 additional rules to stipulate a team going up 3-1 (in a BO7) in the first round, but let's be honest.... if you can't understand that I doubt you're getting much out of watching an SC2 match in the first place.

2. "This format will take longer than other formats."
Yes, the AK/winners format has the potential for being the most time efficient -if- the winning team is capable of a 5-0. In the grand scheme of things this does not happen very often. So I really don't think it's worth talking about. Both the OP’s format and the AK style format have the potential for going to 9 games, or being finished in 5. If you compared the format between two highly skilled teams I’m quite sure there would be little time difference even if you had them play each format 50 times.

As for those talking about the pro league style with multiple BO3s, or a variation with BO3s -and- AK/winner’s formatted rounds in a single match; these formats will obviously take longer as they feature roughly the same amount of players playing each other in more than one game.

3. You can’t feature as many players with this format.”
What? In any standard (commonly used) format where you require 5 of 9 wins, you will only ever see a max of 5 players from a single team.

4. “We won’t see as many B team players with this format.”
In this format you would require a minimum of 5 games played by 5 players win or lose to start out the match. A top heavy team in the AK/winner’s format can get away with winning 5-0 by sending their ace player in first. So you definitely don’t see any B teamers there, except from the losing team perhaps. With the OP’s format you might have 1 top heavy team with 1 or 2 ‘ace’ players and 3 ‘average’ masters players play a team of 5 ‘average’ players. With his format you atleast get to see 5 players from each team play regardless; even if the second team were to get 5-0’d.

Alternately, Pro League’s format you see the same amount of players fielded in a BO9 as you would here, there are just more games played from each person because of BO3s. This also makes the match longer overall and thus harder to cover in a time efficient and cohesive manner.


So... now let’s talk about the strengths of this match format.
1. It allows for a linear match format - you’re casting a series of BO1s, just as you do in the winners/AK format. Easy to cast and cover cohesively and entirely in a time efficient manner.
2. You require a minimum of 5 players participation from either team in a BO9. This guarantees we see more than just a team’s ‘Ace’ dominating an entire match.
3. If the team is top heavy, and in a BO9 is down 1-4 after the first round, their ace still has the potential of building the heroic comeback reverse all kill in the 2nd/3rd rounds.
4. If one team is simply far superior than the other, you will see a resulting 5-0, but you’ll know that the entire team worked together to make that 5-0, not just their ace player all killing.
5. The matches are BO1s, so you can cast them in succession, build the hype and importance of a certain player winning or being eliminated before round 2 (especially if the series is close). This would be done in a very similar fashion to the AK/winner’s format. In round 2 of a close match, the storyline can shift to focus on the remaining winners or ace players ability to pull through for their team.
6. Strategical depth of who to field on what map verse which player is increased because there are a minimum number of players required to be fielded in round 1. I.E. Map specific snipers, verse race/MU specific snipers, vs player/player style specific snipers, vs pairing your team’s ‘ace’ vs the others to knock him out in Rd. 1 and so on on.


The only other way or format I know of to accomplish -all- 6 advantages above is with the following:
+ Show Spoiler +
You take the AK/winner’s format and add 1 stipulation: A player can only win a maximum of 2 games and then must be rotated out for a new player.

Example 1 - In a BO9 - Team LG IM vs Prime - LG-IM Sweeps 5-0

G1: LGIM 1-0 Prime Losira vs. Maru
G2: LGM 2-0 Prime Losira vs. Marineking (Losira now 2-0, must swap out)
G3: LGIM 3-0 Prime Nestea vs. Byun
G4 LGIM 4-0 Prime Nestea vs. Classic (Nestea now 2-0, must swap out)
G5 LGIM 5-0 Prime SeeD vs. Creator

Example 2 - The same match but with a much closer result: LG IM 5-4 Prime

G1: LGIM 1-0 Prime Losira vs. Maru
G2: LGIM 2-0 Prime Losira vs. Marineking (Losira now 2-0, must swap out)
G3: LGIM 2-1 Prime Nestea vs. Byun
G4: LGIM 2-2 Prime Seed vs. Byun (Byun now 2-0, must swap out)
G5: LGIM 3-2 Prime Nestea vs. Classic
G6: LGIM 3-3 Prime Nestea vs. Creator
G7: LGIM 3-4 Prime SeeD vs. Creator (Creator 2-0, must swap out)
G8: LGIM 4-4 Prime MVP vs. Terius
G9: LGIM 5-4 Prime MVP vs. Lucy

What I love about this format is that it adheres to the 6 advantages mentioned above. It also maintains the same style or building a story as the AK/winner’s format while adding a bit more depth to the strategy of which players to field and when. A team can not rely on a single ace player to win the match, they must have at least 2, and a seriously consistent sniper to get a 5-0.



Something else I would like to suggest for the OP’s format if it were to be incorporated into a league:


One thing I did not see mentioned as a possibility (and something I think more leagues should include) is the mechanic of home/away games.

A team league that hosted 16 teams which played 2 matches a week over an 8 week period would allow a 2 month season where each team plays each other twice. This allows for teams to prove themselves twice per season prior to playoffs and more versatility with a home/away system. Perhaps when a team is away they are required to announce their first player on the first map first, or their entire 4 player roster first and allow the home team to decide accordingly.

Each team gets the home advantage against every opponent. It adds a layer of strategy to the team player-fielding meta game through the entire season. It also maintains the similar level of strategy in how a team fields their players seen in the AK/winners format. You can still use a player to snipe for a specific map, specific race, specific player, etc depending on whether or not you're the home team for that match.


The criticism is fair:

1. More complicated than pre-seeding+ace of PL and winner-stay of WL
2. More downtime as team determines players in phase 2/ viewers tries to grasp whats going on next. No Im not saying it's hard to understand but people complains about everything regarding viewer experience
3. a bo9 PL match features maximum 9 different players from a single team
this format features maximum 5. you cant argue about this
4. see above

For the strength that you list:
1. no thing as linear as pre-seeding+ace of PL and winner-stay of WL
2. you require a FIX number of players. Now that it's worse than PL in variety, it's not better than WL either in term of creating momentum
3. agree
4. agree, but as much as people hating one-man-band, they would kill to see a starting AK
5. SPL/GSTL all bo1. I find ace match/reversed AK a better storyline
6. agree

The bottom line is that this format will not provide as much entertainment as proleague/winnersleague. It features the two's core characteristic (players variety for PL and serial winning for WL) but doesnt honor them to the maximum; thus being inferior no matter how fair it is.
FLuE
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1012 Posts
February 22 2013 04:36 GMT
#33
I love the format and the idea.

Not sure if this has been brought up, but I know a few people have said about getting "more faces" since this format (at least in the BO7) would limit to 4 players for each team.

But what if you simply added a rule where for the 2nd round you were allowed to sub for one of your winners, or even had to sub for one of your winners which could get a 5th player involved?

I mean in reality seeing 4 players vs. 6 isn't much different. And if people are that worried about not seeing new faces then the league could even put in some rules where the same players can't play 3 weeks in a row or something like that.

Essentially if the hang up on this idea is the player variety, there are some ways to work around that. I think it is a real good idea, and would love to see it used especially the situation that ended up 3-1 and getting the 3-0.
WinterTV
Profile Joined February 2011
United States297 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-22 23:19:27
February 22 2013 23:08 GMT
#34
On February 22 2013 13:35 Arceus wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 22 2013 12:51 WinterTV wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Hmm where to begin.... I like this idea and it is an interesting alternative.

First let's talk about some of the criticism thus far.

1. "This format is complicated."
How is it complicated? It's a linear match format that involves BO1s and players are eliminated after losing. In terms of the progression of the match, the only difference is you’re seeing a different winner each round. Obviously, it’s a separate BO1. Sure, the format requires 1 or 2 additional rules to stipulate a team going up 3-1 (in a BO7) in the first round, but let's be honest.... if you can't understand that I doubt you're getting much out of watching an SC2 match in the first place.

2. "This format will take longer than other formats."
Yes, the AK/winners format has the potential for being the most time efficient -if- the winning team is capable of a 5-0. In the grand scheme of things this does not happen very often. So I really don't think it's worth talking about. Both the OP’s format and the AK style format have the potential for going to 9 games, or being finished in 5. If you compared the format between two highly skilled teams I’m quite sure there would be little time difference even if you had them play each format 50 times.

As for those talking about the pro league style with multiple BO3s, or a variation with BO3s -and- AK/winner’s formatted rounds in a single match; these formats will obviously take longer as they feature roughly the same amount of players playing each other in more than one game.

3. You can’t feature as many players with this format.”
What? In any standard (commonly used) format where you require 5 of 9 wins, you will only ever see a max of 5 players from a single team.

4. “We won’t see as many B team players with this format.”
In this format you would require a minimum of 5 games played by 5 players win or lose to start out the match. A top heavy team in the AK/winner’s format can get away with winning 5-0 by sending their ace player in first. So you definitely don’t see any B teamers there, except from the losing team perhaps. With the OP’s format you might have 1 top heavy team with 1 or 2 ‘ace’ players and 3 ‘average’ masters players play a team of 5 ‘average’ players. With his format you atleast get to see 5 players from each team play regardless; even if the second team were to get 5-0’d.

Alternately, Pro League’s format you see the same amount of players fielded in a BO9 as you would here, there are just more games played from each person because of BO3s. This also makes the match longer overall and thus harder to cover in a time efficient and cohesive manner.


So... now let’s talk about the strengths of this match format.
1. It allows for a linear match format - you’re casting a series of BO1s, just as you do in the winners/AK format. Easy to cast and cover cohesively and entirely in a time efficient manner.
2. You require a minimum of 5 players participation from either team in a BO9. This guarantees we see more than just a team’s ‘Ace’ dominating an entire match.
3. If the team is top heavy, and in a BO9 is down 1-4 after the first round, their ace still has the potential of building the heroic comeback reverse all kill in the 2nd/3rd rounds.
4. If one team is simply far superior than the other, you will see a resulting 5-0, but you’ll know that the entire team worked together to make that 5-0, not just their ace player all killing.
5. The matches are BO1s, so you can cast them in succession, build the hype and importance of a certain player winning or being eliminated before round 2 (especially if the series is close). This would be done in a very similar fashion to the AK/winner’s format. In round 2 of a close match, the storyline can shift to focus on the remaining winners or ace players ability to pull through for their team.
6. Strategical depth of who to field on what map verse which player is increased because there are a minimum number of players required to be fielded in round 1. I.E. Map specific snipers, verse race/MU specific snipers, vs player/player style specific snipers, vs pairing your team’s ‘ace’ vs the others to knock him out in Rd. 1 and so on on.


The only other way or format I know of to accomplish -all- 6 advantages above is with the following:
+ Show Spoiler +
You take the AK/winner’s format and add 1 stipulation: A player can only win a maximum of 2 games and then must be rotated out for a new player.

Example 1 - In a BO9 - Team LG IM vs Prime - LG-IM Sweeps 5-0

G1: LGIM 1-0 Prime Losira vs. Maru
G2: LGM 2-0 Prime Losira vs. Marineking (Losira now 2-0, must swap out)
G3: LGIM 3-0 Prime Nestea vs. Byun
G4 LGIM 4-0 Prime Nestea vs. Classic (Nestea now 2-0, must swap out)
G5 LGIM 5-0 Prime SeeD vs. Creator

Example 2 - The same match but with a much closer result: LG IM 5-4 Prime

G1: LGIM 1-0 Prime Losira vs. Maru
G2: LGIM 2-0 Prime Losira vs. Marineking (Losira now 2-0, must swap out)
G3: LGIM 2-1 Prime Nestea vs. Byun
G4: LGIM 2-2 Prime Seed vs. Byun (Byun now 2-0, must swap out)
G5: LGIM 3-2 Prime Nestea vs. Classic
G6: LGIM 3-3 Prime Nestea vs. Creator
G7: LGIM 3-4 Prime SeeD vs. Creator (Creator 2-0, must swap out)
G8: LGIM 4-4 Prime MVP vs. Terius
G9: LGIM 5-4 Prime MVP vs. Lucy

What I love about this format is that it adheres to the 6 advantages mentioned above. It also maintains the same style or building a story as the AK/winner’s format while adding a bit more depth to the strategy of which players to field and when. A team can not rely on a single ace player to win the match, they must have at least 2, and a seriously consistent sniper to get a 5-0.



Something else I would like to suggest for the OP’s format if it were to be incorporated into a league:


One thing I did not see mentioned as a possibility (and something I think more leagues should include) is the mechanic of home/away games.

A team league that hosted 16 teams which played 2 matches a week over an 8 week period would allow a 2 month season where each team plays each other twice. This allows for teams to prove themselves twice per season prior to playoffs and more versatility with a home/away system. Perhaps when a team is away they are required to announce their first player on the first map first, or their entire 4 player roster first and allow the home team to decide accordingly.

Each team gets the home advantage against every opponent. It adds a layer of strategy to the team player-fielding meta game through the entire season. It also maintains the similar level of strategy in how a team fields their players seen in the AK/winners format. You can still use a player to snipe for a specific map, specific race, specific player, etc depending on whether or not you're the home team for that match.


The criticism is fair:

1. More complicated than pre-seeding+ace of PL and winner-stay of WL
2. More downtime as team determines players in phase 2/ viewers tries to grasp whats going on next. No Im not saying it's hard to understand but people complains about everything regarding viewer experience
3. a bo9 PL match features maximum 9 different players from a single team
this format features maximum 5. you cant argue about this
4. see above

For the strength that you list:
1. no thing as linear as pre-seeding+ace of PL and winner-stay of WL
2. you require a FIX number of players. Now that it's worse than PL in variety, it's not better than WL either in term of creating momentum
3. agree
4. agree, but as much as people hating one-man-band, they would kill to see a starting AK
5. SPL/GSTL all bo1. I find ace match/reversed AK a better storyline
6. agree

The bottom line is that this format will not provide as much entertainment as proleague/winnersleague. It features the two's core characteristic (players variety for PL and serial winning for WL) but doesnt honor them to the maximum; thus being inferior no matter how fair it is.


Your points are 'fair' and accurate. I just don't think they are an even comparison between all 3 formats. Every point brought up outside of Criticism #1 and your point towards strength #1 (they're kind of the same issue for you) can be made against AK/WL format just as much as the OP's format in comparison to the PL format. This is an issue because you can't turn around and make any of the same comparisons against AK/WL format; which tells me the OP's format is a pretty damn good combination of both. If not a good combo of both, then perhaps just a solid improvement on AK/WL format.

Essentially....
Criticisms:
1. Yes, you can make this argument. It is a relatively minuscule difference which does make it -slightly- more complicated. Okay. More complicated does not equate to -too- complicated. Maybe it's a downside, but not one solely large enough to turn away from the format.
2. More downtime... You can say this about literally every other league, event, match, etc. It is a reality of life and the same kind of downtime is had in AK/WL format. That is why you either cast from replays or hire good casters who can entertain and build story/plot line to cover the downtime. Yes, people complain about everything. That happens when the education is not there to build the understanding. Either way the same thing could be said for AK/WL format with downtime of choosing the next player and map.
3. Agree. But again the exact same can be said for both the OP's format and AK/WL in comparison to only PL format.
4. Same as 3.

Strengths:
1. Well, the OP -is- as linear of a format. It's one match after another. It's just not as fluid as a pre-seeded PL or winner stays in AK format. I think that applies more to Crit #1 than anything else. But let's just say I agree here too. Similar, but con #2.
2. Yes, less variety than PL - something already stated. But you can't say it's not better than AK/WL format in creating momentum. It just happens in a different way. A way that is more similar or the same to PL format in the first round, and the same as AK/WL in the second round. If you agree fundamentally with 3-6, then you must also agree here. You get the strengths of AK/WL and with more variety than AK/WL. You get -potentially- less variety than PL (IF a match in PL goes to Game 9 in a BO9) Again, the downside really only applies in comparison to the PL format.
3. agree
4. Agree
5. OP's format allows for reverse AK (and standard AK, just happens the same as in PL, not the true way of AK/WL). It is a great storyline. It also can happen in AK/WL format, and yes it is somewhat more likely in that format. But again you can't get that in PL format, so it is a downside only in comparison to PL.
6. Agree

Basically - Yes, the OP's format is not as polarizing as either PL or AK/WL format. But the OP's format gains you all of the strengths of the AK/WL format while eliminating some of the downsides it has in comparison to PL by incorporating features from PL's format. Yeah, when you compare that back to PL there are a couple downsides as listed above. Far less downsides than if you compare AK/WL to PL format. Either way they're so negligible that with solid coverage and presentation the OP's format could be just as successful as the other two.
@wintersc2
NervO
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Netherlands511 Posts
February 23 2013 10:11 GMT
#35
Seems quite cool
Currently working with Team Acer CSGO | @AcerNervO
lord_nibbler
Profile Joined March 2004
Germany591 Posts
February 25 2013 21:50 GMT
#36
On February 22 2013 13:36 FLuE wrote:
But what if you simply added a rule where for the 2nd round you were allowed to sub for one of your winners, or even had to sub for one of your winners which could get a 5th player involved?

This would strengthen the role of the team's sniper or a 'map specialist' enormously. Just exchange him after his job is done.
I am not saying this is bad per se, just that it would change the character of the competition a lot.

The proponents would call it 'tactical depth' or the 'special team strength' like in football. While objectors would simply call it an ugly cheese fest, robbing them from actual high caliber games.


On February 22 2013 12:51 WinterTV wrote:
You take the AK/winner’s format and add 1 stipulation: A player can only win a maximum of 2 games and then must be rotated out for a new player.

What I love about this format is that it adheres to the 6 advantages mentioned above. It also maintains the same style or building a story as the AK/winner’s format while adding a bit more depth to the strategy of which players to field and when. A team can not rely on a single ace player to win the match, they must have at least 2, and a seriously consistent sniper to get a 5-0.

This system feels very wrong and destroys the 'story of the match' IMO.

Say you have a guy playing fantastic, seemingly unbeatable.
'Who can stop him today?"
"Well, nobody. But who cares, he is off to the bench now. Two games max..."

Where is the sense in preparing a sniper for an opponent player if he can not continue to play anyway?
sixfour
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
England11061 Posts
February 25 2013 22:01 GMT
#37
dream league >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal proleague >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all-kill
p: stats, horang2, free, jangbi z: soulkey, zero, shine, hydra t: leta, hiya, sea
XPA
Profile Joined January 2013
Germany242 Posts
February 25 2013 22:26 GMT
#38
It sounds really cool, but I think it makes preparing much harder than for Proleague system. There you simple now i will face opponent x on map y. In you system you will now opponent x on map y, but after this it´s so hard to predict. That is similar to the All-Kill Format.
Also Snipping would get very hard after round one, because you have to win your first round and then choose the right map.
So for Choaches this might give them awesome opportunities, but I will like it would be very random after round one. And those All Kill Players would get more important than snipers, which would take a hugh fun factor from proleague.
But still I would like to see a league like this.
lord_nibbler
Profile Joined March 2004
Germany591 Posts
March 21 2013 12:14 GMT
#39
Nice surprise:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=404147&currentpage=All
Erraa93
Profile Joined December 2012
Australia891 Posts
March 21 2013 12:37 GMT
#40
I kind of really like this idea. I do want to see this used somewhere for a run, it may end up looking good.
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