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Destiny: Own3d paying streamers late, not fulfilling contr…

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Sabu113
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States11047 Posts
January 18 2013 05:03 GMT
#121
On a side note, I am amused that Destiny probably produced the best piece of Esports related writing this month.
Biomine is a drunken chick who is on industrial strength amphetamines and would just grab your dick and jerk it as hard and violently as she could while screaming 'OMG FUCK ME', because she saw it in a Sasha Grey video ...-Wombat_Ni
coolcor
Profile Joined February 2011
520 Posts
January 18 2013 05:03 GMT
#122
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.


We already determined that investigative journalism into esports business was unnecessary because there are no hidden stories from the public and it would be impossible to get people to talk on the record anyways. This was confirmed by multiple industry people here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/wcg45/so_you_say_you_want_independent_esports_journalism/

So we are left with slasher and esfi world volunteers to catch things like this. Everyone agreed esfi world was enough though so lets hope they keep up the good work!

I'm going to guess lots of people not getting payed by one of the major stream sites for so long were pretty talkative to their friends about this and that this news was not surprising information within the industry. Why didn't the story break from any of them sooner? I'm going to guess the answer was it is bad news so it would hurt esports but I could be wrong.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 18 2013 05:06 GMT
#123
On January 18 2013 13:59 Nerski wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 13:48 BluePanther wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote:
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k.
Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.



I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.

.
I'd suppose some of it is perspective, but in dealing with a contract dispute...I would highly doubt you get the job done in 200 bucks, it's not like you are going to traffic court on a speeding violation. If you pay for some cheapo lawyer and whoever you are going up against has a decent lawyer...you'll probably get your butt handed to you on a platter. Not to mention many of these disputes cross country lines which requires a different level of legal knowledge.

Either way using public pressure is 100% cheaper.



Sorry, that was supposed to read $200/hr. I said I wouldn't expect it to cost me more than $1k, pending what information he has. I also don't charge $200 an hour... maybe I should though if people like you think that's "normal"...
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 18 2013 05:10 GMT
#124
On January 18 2013 14:02 SupLilSon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 13:48 BluePanther wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote:
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k.
Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.



I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.

What? Most lawyers won't even see you for a initial meeting for 200 bucks...



Then I'm not most.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 18 2013 05:10 GMT
#125
On January 18 2013 13:48 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote:
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k.
Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.



I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.

Um... I am a paralegal and I bill out at $105 an hour. My attorneys bill out at $205 and you cannot find a counsel in our area who bills out for less. We are not high end and there are firms that bill out at $400 an hours in out field. Lawyers cost a lot of money. If they don't, you are hiring a shitty lawyer.

People do not respect that level fees cost a shit ton of money. Nothing is cheap in law.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nerski
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1095 Posts
January 18 2013 05:11 GMT
#126
On January 18 2013 14:06 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 13:59 Nerski wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:48 BluePanther wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote:
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k.
Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.



I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.

.
I'd suppose some of it is perspective, but in dealing with a contract dispute...I would highly doubt you get the job done in 200 bucks, it's not like you are going to traffic court on a speeding violation. If you pay for some cheapo lawyer and whoever you are going up against has a decent lawyer...you'll probably get your butt handed to you on a platter. Not to mention many of these disputes cross country lines which requires a different level of legal knowledge.

Either way using public pressure is 100% cheaper.



Sorry, that was supposed to read $200/hr. I said I wouldn't expect it to cost me more than $1k, pending what information he has. I also don't charge $200 an hour... maybe I should though if people like you think that's "normal"...


I did say 75 to 300 per hour...either way the only point I was trying to make is it's a bit silly that people always jump into these contract dispute threads screaming 'sue them'. There is a ton more financially that goes into 'just sue them', that makes it not always a great option vs. use public pressure.
Twitter: @GoForNerski /// Youtube: Youtube.com/nerskisc
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 18 2013 05:12 GMT
#127
On January 18 2013 14:10 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 14:02 SupLilSon wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:48 BluePanther wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote:
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k.
Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.



I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.

What? Most lawyers won't even see you for a initial meeting for 200 bucks...



Then I'm not most.

No, you are a rare breed. Most cost a lot. I cost a lot and I am only a paralegal.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 05:13:04
January 18 2013 05:12 GMT
#128
On January 18 2013 14:10 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 13:48 BluePanther wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote:
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k.
Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.



I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.

Um... I am a paralegal and I bill out at $105 an hour. My attorneys bill out at $205 and you cannot find a counsel in our area who bills out for less. We are not high end and there are firms that bill out at $400 an hours in out field. Lawyers cost a lot of money. If they don't, you are hiring a shitty lawyer.

People do not respect that level fees cost a shit ton of money. Nothing is cheap in law.


o.O

What state/city are you in?
CajunMan
Profile Joined July 2010
United States823 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 05:15:35
January 18 2013 05:15 GMT
#129
Quick question on Legal fees would the people involved not be able to form 1 lawsuit and sue for legal fees as well as payment? This is payment they are due by contract they shouldn't be having to sue just wondering
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 18 2013 05:15 GMT
#130
On January 18 2013 14:12 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 14:10 Plansix wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:48 BluePanther wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote:
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k.
Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.



I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.

Um... I am a paralegal and I bill out at $105 an hour. My attorneys bill out at $205 and you cannot find a counsel in our area who bills out for less. We are not high end and there are firms that bill out at $400 an hours in out field. Lawyers cost a lot of money. If they don't, you are hiring a shitty lawyer.

People do not respect that level fees cost a shit ton of money. Nothing is cheap in law.


o.O

What state/city are you in?

Boston, Ma. Highest cost of living outside of NYC. We cost a lot, because everything else costs a lot.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
AgentW
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United States7725 Posts
January 18 2013 05:15 GMT
#131
Thread's been put on Community News & Headlines now. Own3d better get on the damage control quick if they want to salvage any semblance of a reputation.
Who's the bigger scrub, the scrub, or the scrub who loses to him?
Megaliskuu
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5123 Posts
January 18 2013 05:16 GMT
#132
On January 18 2013 10:35 LeafMeAlone wrote:
From his site, wouldn't want him getting site views now would we =O

+ Show Spoiler +
Hi. My name is Destiny, and I am one of the most prolific streamers in the world at the moment. I stream League of Legends, primarily, and I used to stream Starcraft 2.

In December of 2011, I was approached by own3d.tv to switch over from twitch.tv. I wrote a relatively detailed article explaining that my decision was primarily motivated by financial reasons. Basically, own3d.tv promised me more money for advertising plus a cash incentive for signing up with them. According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” I was also promised “60% of all Premium Subscription” revenue, referring to the people that subscribed to me via the $5/month system on own3d.

Let’s look at a few different things that I was promised as part of my contract:

Signing Bonus
Upon signing up with own3d.tv, they agreed to pay me a cash incentive bonus for signing up with their service. According to the contract, “50% upfront payments for the first month” was to be paid out. I also had a smaller amount ($5,000) to be used for an event of my choice, such as hosting a tournament or showmatch series, that own3d.tv would put up for me. In requesting whether or not the cash incentive would be paid out, I contacted Oleg (CEO of own3d.tv) multiple times [1] [2]. After the first three times, he said that it would be wired to me next week, back in April. I inquired again about it and received no response, then was assured sometime in May that I’d be receiving it within the week. Finally, on May 25th, Oleg assured me that the signing bonus was wired to me. Of course, later I’d find out it was only 1/3rd of what I was owed, and that I’d be receiving it in 1/3rd “chunks” over the next few months. So after 7 months of streaming with own3d, I was finally paid my cash incentive for signing up with them. Not the greatest, but at least I received all of it.

Event Bonus
I was given a certain dollar amount “to be managed by own3D.tv to run events for the Publisher.” As time went on with own3d.tv, my paychecks gradually came in later and later. They were incredibly unreliable with paying me, and I was incredibly uncomfortable trying to manage an event with them being responsible for paying anything out. I wasn’t willing to risk my name and reputation with them in regards to paying out prizes or payments. As a compromise, I inquired about using my event budget to schedule a trip to Poland to stay at the Ministry of Win with my family. Although this wasn’t in the contract, Oleg assured me it would be okay via Skype on June 12th. At this time, I told Ministry of Win I would be coming to visit them and entered contract negotiations with them for my stay. I messaged Oleg later asking how I would go about booking the plane tickets, but (as usual) received no response. Eventually I received an e-mail from someone working with own3d.tv that it would be impossible to use it unless I signed another contract with them to “unlock” the money. Since they were incredibly shaky with payments (among other things) I imagine they were worried that I would be switching streaming platforms upon the expiration of my contract. That’s just conjecture, of course. Finally, Oleg told me on Skype that it would be impossible to use said funds for traveling.

As of January 17th, I haven’t been able to use this event money for anything, and I assume that I’ll never have the opportunity to.

Paychecks
By the time August rolled around, I had to pester Oleg fairly often on Skype about when paychecks were going out. When we got to September, paychecks were being paid months late. Oleg became increasingly less responsive on Skype. At this point I was stuck in Poland after having exhausted a large majority of my savings. I could barely afford food and necessities for my child and his mother while staying there.

The last paycheck I received from own3d was marked for July. I don’t believe I will ever be paid for the last 5 months I streamed with them. I’m trying to keep this as formal and non-sensationalist as possible, but it’s hard to imagine the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I get from even typing that out.

Subscriptions
On own3d.tv you had the option to subscribe to my stream for a fee of $5.00/month. I was promised to be compensated for 60% of the revenue generated from subscribers. I love and appreciate all of you guys that subscribed to me more than you will ever imagine, but I was never (and probably will never be) paid for anyone who subscribed to my stream. own3d.tv literally pocketed that money and kept it for themselves. I pestered numerous times on Skype for it, but was never given a flat answer.

Other problems
Among all of the other silly problems that came along with such a newly emerging technology such as streaming, one of the most pervasive and disruptive problems I had was with transcodes. The transcodes on my stream (the ability to watch in a lower resolution at a lower framerate) were consistently laggy or otherwise unwatchable. Based on my estimates from when I’ve streamed in the past, about 40% of a person’s audience of a 1080p or 60fps stream is watching transcodes. My transcodes were consistently broken and I feel as though it impacted my viewership, especially during my later months with own3d.

———————

To summarize, during the first few months, aside from not being paid for subscriptions or my cash incentive, things were relatively okay. As the year continued on, however, things became unbearable for me. Everything came to a head when I was essentially forced to switch from own3d.tv to twitch.tv before my contract end date in December. I hadn’t received a paycheck in so long that I was becoming worried about my ability to provide for my family while in Poland (or when we returned home) so I switched to twitch.tv 2 weeks before my contract’s end date in order to pursue a more reliable paycheck.

This was the conversation I had with Oleg in regards to leaving earlier than planned -

[image loading]



Of course as I’ve already left, now all of the promises are being made in regards to fixing the transcodes and what not. And of course my payments were late due to both hurricane Sandy and CBS not paying own3d.tv on time. I’m not sure how that affects all of the previous months of being paid so horrendously late, but whatever.

Penalty for leaving the contract early
The reason I left my contract early was because I was well aware of the penalties for leaving. They were expressly written in the contract I signed and agreed to, and a simple cost-benefit analysis would show that it was worth it for me to bail on the contract 2 weeks early.

My penalty for leaving the contract early is as outlined, quoted from my contract -

“In case of termination without good reason and without any breach of obligations – the terminating party is obliged to pay a termination penalty. The penalty fee amounts to 60 percent of the average monthly revenues (including sponsorship fees) that have been generated before termination for the remaining months of the Agreement. For example, if the contract is terminated after 10 months and average monthly revenues have been $1000 during this period – the terminating party is obliged to pay $600 for the remaining 8 months of the contract or $4800.”

That means that I should have owed own3d.tv half of ~60% of my average revenue for a month. This penalty was nothing considering my last paycheck from them was marked for July.

Here is my final conversation with Oleg, where he threatens that his lawyers had frozen paychecks to me (because I’m sure he was just -just- about to send them out) due to me leaving the contract early -

[image loading]

Of course at the end he assures me that I will be paid eventually, but that was early December, and he has since stopped responding to my inquiries.

————————–

My motivation for writing this is that I hope to dissuade others from signing up with own3d or making any kind of agreements with them in the future. I am in an incredibly tight bind, financially, as I’m finally coming to accept that I worked entirely for free for half of 2012. If you subscribe to streamers on own3d, I would hope that you check with the streamer to make sure they’re actually being paid, otherwise you’re essentially shipping off $5/month to own3d with no benefit (actually, a detriment since you see no ads) whatsoever to the streamer. If you’re an aspiring streamer or a member of a pro team and you’re looking to set up a stream for yourself or your team, I would highly encourage you to stay away from own3d.



I don't think many pro's use Own3d so kinda irrelevant, not to mention the ones that do are sponsored and don't have a private contract going on


Was gonna say something snarky about your post, then I saw your sig. Makes sense lol.
|BW>Everything|Add me on star2 KR server TheMuTaL.675 for practice games :)|NEX clan| https://www.dotabuff.com/players/183104694
wptlzkwjd
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada1240 Posts
January 18 2013 05:18 GMT
#133
Wow...I'm not a Destiny fan (I don't play zerg or LoL) but seeing how he hasn't been paid for months and having difficulties supporting his family makes me really sad. Hopefully this gets sorted out soon because I do watch ForGG's stream which is also on Own3d...
Feel free to add me on steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/MagnusAskeland/
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
January 18 2013 05:19 GMT
#134
On January 18 2013 14:03 coolcor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.


We already determined that investigative journalism into esports business was unnecessary because there are no hidden stories from the public and it would be impossible to get people to talk on the record anyways. This was confirmed by multiple industry people here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/wcg45/so_you_say_you_want_independent_esports_journalism/

So we are left with slasher and esfi world volunteers to catch things like this. Everyone agreed esfi world was enough though so lets hope they keep up the good work!

I'm going to guess lots of people not getting payed by one of the major stream sites for so long were pretty talkative to their friends about this and that this news was not surprising information within the industry. Why didn't the story break from any of them sooner? I'm going to guess the answer was it is bad news so it would hurt esports but I could be wrong.

I'd say it's because people getting paid late / contracts not being held up is extremely common in esports. Players have very little rights.
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
Apollo_Shards
Profile Joined February 2011
1210 Posts
January 18 2013 05:19 GMT
#135
Ballsy teamliquid putting this on the main headlines section.
I like it.
Jaedong, sOs, avilo, MaSa, Oprah
SupLilSon
Profile Joined October 2011
Malaysia4123 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 05:21:33
January 18 2013 05:21 GMT
#136
On January 18 2013 14:10 BluePanther wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 14:02 SupLilSon wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:48 BluePanther wrote:
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote:
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k.
Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.



I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.

What? Most lawyers won't even see you for a initial meeting for 200 bucks...



Then I'm not most.


I mean you can always get an attorney for free from the state.... but the 2 times I've had to appear in court I paid around 2k in total lawyer fees each time and I was getting a pretty nice personal discount. Yea I bought a high end lawyer but it ended up saving me money/time/hassle in court.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 18 2013 05:21 GMT
#137
On January 18 2013 14:15 CajunMan wrote:
Quick question on Legal fees would the people involved not be able to form 1 lawsuit and sue for legal fees as well as payment? This is payment they are due by contract they shouldn't be having to sue just wondering



Ok, Boston doesn't surprise me that much.

This can depend on jurisdiction and/or the terms of the contract. As a default rule, however, the answer is no in the USA.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
January 18 2013 05:24 GMT
#138
On January 18 2013 14:19 Pokebunny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 18 2013 14:03 coolcor wrote:
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.


We already determined that investigative journalism into esports business was unnecessary because there are no hidden stories from the public and it would be impossible to get people to talk on the record anyways. This was confirmed by multiple industry people here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/wcg45/so_you_say_you_want_independent_esports_journalism/

So we are left with slasher and esfi world volunteers to catch things like this. Everyone agreed esfi world was enough though so lets hope they keep up the good work!

I'm going to guess lots of people not getting payed by one of the major stream sites for so long were pretty talkative to their friends about this and that this news was not surprising information within the industry. Why didn't the story break from any of them sooner? I'm going to guess the answer was it is bad news so it would hurt esports but I could be wrong.

I'd say it's because people getting paid late / contracts not being held up is extremely common in esports. Players have very little rights.


To be honest, how many of you guys actually retain lawyers and make them pay? How many of you consult a lawyer before signing sponsorship contracts? When's the last time someone has sued for delivery of money they were promised?

You can't really fault the sponsors and event organizers for not upholding their end if you guys are never going to hold them to their word. I mean, yeah, I know you're not the ones at fault, but seriously, stand up for yourselves once in a while.
theqat
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States2856 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-18 05:27:49
January 18 2013 05:26 GMT
#139
I have to say that I'm a little pleased to hear this because it hopefully means own3d is on the way out. In the time twitch has made tons of big improvements I've seen very little from own3d. Their player is clunky and laggy (moving the mouse over the video to reveal the UI turns the video into a slideshow on older computers), their stream quality seems worse overall than twitch (plus it takes forever for the video to load compared to twitch), and I can't recall seeing any big effort to get involved in the community like twitch has (though I may have missed something on that front). It took own3d months to fix a bug where volume wouldn't stay muted. I pretty much dread having to watch stuff on own3d and am relieved when something turns out to be on twitch.

As much as it would be nice to have competition for twitch to gauge themselves against, I think twitch is so far ahead of own3d that it doesn't bear comparing. I do hope the streamers can get their money in the end, of course. And I hope that twitch has gotten or will get their act together in Europe so EU guys can get lag-free streams
Obstikal
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
616 Posts
January 18 2013 05:26 GMT
#140
On January 18 2013 14:15 AgentW wrote:
Thread's been put on Community News & Headlines now. Own3d better get on the damage control quick if they want to salvage any semblance of a reputation.



I think its the right step. This is pretty big news.. and its not good news.
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