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On January 18 2013 12:51 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 12:42 Plansix wrote:On January 18 2013 12:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote:
Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them? Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay. True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field. Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt. Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria.
He lives in the United States. Can you sue people and then not show up for the court case, because I think he might have to fly there to sue them? Here in the US you need to show up in Court at some point, even if you have an attorney. I don't know how you folks do things down there, though.
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It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
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What country does Oleg live in?
If I was Destiny I would definitely be in touch with a lawyer if I straight up didn't get paid.
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On January 18 2013 12:56 Rah wrote:
It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
I don't really care for destiny, but imagine not being paid for 3 months, at least. And when you do get paid, it's late. All that salary, gone. I think any kind of language would be perfectly justifiable, Destiny was downright civil compared to what I'm sure some people would do.
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This is some crazy shit.. Everything I see from tournaments and teams is all happy and giddy(besides random player/team drama which I think is normal). I watch great games,casters,players,events but deep deep in the underground of esports theres players being unpaid and the people who promised to pay acting shady as hell.
/endoverlydramaticstatement
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On January 18 2013 12:56 Rah wrote:
It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
You've obviously never asked someone to pay you late. The furthest you'll go is polite and reasonable pleading because "RAAAGHH PAY ME NOW" won't get you anywhere.
If Destiny is feeling mean, he should sell the payment he's owed to a debt collector for 20 cents on the dollar and let them mercilessly hound own3d for the rest.
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I'm not sure you can do that in Austria.
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On January 18 2013 13:00 Doodsmack wrote:
What country does Oleg live in?
If I was Destiny I would definitely be in touch with a lawyer if I straight up didn't get paid.
Would probably be too expensive to do so. Let's suppose that Destiny did have enough money to pay for lawyer and court fees. He would only do so only if he expects to get a net positive in the lawsuit. I'm not sure how much money is involved but it may not be cost effective to do so.
Supposing Destiny doesn't have the money, I don't know if there are lawyers that work only on commissions in Europe (take ~40% of winnings or something).
And finally, does own3d even have enough money given a loss to pay Destiny.
There's probably too much uncertainty to make a lawsuit worth while. He should however figure out the statutes of limitations on a potential lawsuit in case at some point the expected values change.
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On January 18 2013 12:56 Rah wrote:
It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
They stayed professional? Did you even read the thing? They repeatedly promised him that he would get paid, which never happened. And eventually, they simply stopped responding to him at all, which is the only reason Destiny has to make this post in the first place. If you think this is Destiny being a douche then I'd like to see how you would respond to someone who has broken repeated promises, ignored you, and refused to pay you for half a years worth of your full time job.
No one is asking you to like Destiny. I don't particularly like Destiny a lot of the time. But this Destiny hate is getting stupid.
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On January 18 2013 12:54 FXOBoSs wrote:
I brought up similar issues, such as slow payment, incorrect fill rates, deceiving the public etc. a long time ago on my blog.
They have been around for a long time, twitch has since fixed it to the best of their ability. But things could be a lot better overall in the industry.
I only remember your rant about how youtube was the way to go. Okay, after going through like 14 or so pages and I found it. Remember that conversation now and heck that was over a year ago. >_<
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On January 18 2013 12:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 12:51 Tula wrote:On January 18 2013 12:42 Plansix wrote:On January 18 2013 12:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote:
Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them? Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay. True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field. Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt. Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria. He lives in the United States. Can you sue people and then not show up for the court case, because I think he might have to fly there to sue them? Here in the US you need to show up in Court at some point, even if you have an attorney. I don't know how you folks do things down there, though.
Without making this too complicated no he does not need to show up. Frankly depending on where the contract was signed and what they agreed on he might not even need to sue in Austria itself. If he does a lawyer can do everything that needs to be done. It might be a bit more annoying finding a lawyer and arranging skype calls and couriers to get all the necessary documents to that lawyer, but it's something I've personally done while working at a law office. It would probably increase the amount of money he has to pay the lawyer (most of them bill by the hour) but he would almost certainly come out with a profit.
One stumbling block might be if he lacks the funds to get the whole thing started, most lawyers require a deposit (the one where i worked usually required 500€ for stuff like this) in advance to work such a case. (Mostly because if things truly go to court you have to deposit a similar amount of cover the court date before it actually happens).
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On January 18 2013 13:06 Nimic wrote:
I'm not sure you can do that in Austria.
You can, though usually the going rate would be either higher or lower depending on the companies credit rating. It's fairly common for debts considered "too small" to involve a lawyer yourself.
Edit: regarding working for commission, no that is not allowed in Austria. The "Rechtsanwaltskammer" sets rates for the hour of work required, the rates vary by a lot depending on a number of factors (including the "Streitsumme" the amount owed basically) but they are set and it is expressively forbidden to go below them. It is considered fairly normal to only require a token sum in advance and pay most of the other fees out of the expected settlement, but that is usually for longstanding clients or buisness relationships.
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I think that because e-sports is pretty young it's going to take mistakes like theses and companies like these before the industry itself actually matures. There will be companies that don't perform as well as others and they will need to be identified so that other companies, like Twitch, have the ability to grow. So, although this sucks for Destiny and anyone else that may have encountered similar problems it's somewhat necessary, in my opinion, to help the streaming industry. There could have been things done better on both sides but I do think that eventually the entire e-sports industry will have no more issues like this in the next couple of years!
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the only thing I took away from this was...
destiny has a kid!?
and yeah, own3d better lawyer up, sounds like a free win in court.
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i feel bad for forgg since he is still with owndtv
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On January 18 2013 12:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 12:51 Tula wrote:On January 18 2013 12:42 Plansix wrote:On January 18 2013 12:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote:
Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them? Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay. True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field. Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt. Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria. He lives in the United States. Can you sue people and then not show up for the court case, because I think he might have to fly there to sue them? Here in the US you need to show up in Court at some point, even if you have an attorney. I don't know how you folks do things down there, though.
He would likely win a case in US court, but enforcement would still be an issue.
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On January 18 2013 12:51 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 12:42 Plansix wrote:On January 18 2013 12:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote:
Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them? Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay. True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field. + Show Spoiler +Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt.
Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria.
But according to Destiny it says:
"According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” "
So that part reminds me a bit of the IEM price money delay story. "our sponsors dont pay on time - so we have to pay the players later".
Of course the other part is the whole 60% of subscribers stuff. Which is not excused by that.
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Wow, this is terrible news, and it seems that it doesn't only happen to Destiny either 
Yet another reason why Twitch >>> Own3d. Trying to get rich quick isn't worth trading away the quality of the better network or professionalism, not to mention actually getting the money at all!
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On January 18 2013 12:56 Rah wrote:
It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
Yeah, because its sooooooooo professional to not pay people their hard earned money.
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On January 18 2013 13:21 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 12:56 Plansix wrote:On January 18 2013 12:51 Tula wrote:On January 18 2013 12:42 Plansix wrote:On January 18 2013 12:30 FabledIntegral wrote:On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote:
Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them? Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay. True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field. Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt. Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria. He lives in the United States. Can you sue people and then not show up for the court case, because I think he might have to fly there to sue them? Here in the US you need to show up in Court at some point, even if you have an attorney. I don't know how you folks do things down there, though. He would likely win a case in US court, but enforcement would still be an issue.
lawyer fees, court fees and other fees would probably amount to his yearly income
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EPT
