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On January 20 2013 09:40 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming. Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them. Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check. Once again what you are saying about streaming is true about any form of self employment. The whole argument smacks of jealousy to me. You think that because he enjoys his job its not a real job. That's not how the world works. You ever hear a professional poker player in an interview? Poker is their JOB. Streaming is Destiny's job. It fulfills every requirement of a job. It takes time and earns money - therefore: JOB.
You want to make an argument that streaming is a job, fine. Streaming is a job. Now accept this as fact. Streaming is not a safe stable source if income. I only have an issue with the fact that he brings his kid into this. If he wanted a job, to secure a financial future for his family, he should have looked elsewhere outside of esports. Btw by your classification of a job Destiny has been out of a job for 9 months
Again I don't understand why anyone used Owned in the first place. I do think they should pay their streamers, but they wont they will go into bankruptcy. From his article they're even wasting time/money looking for a legal way to not pay their streamers.
On January 20 2013 09:48 thekaas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. He had a contract. I'ts a job. Period. Had this contract been fulfilled, he would have been able to sustain his family. Neither of the things you brought up actually matter in Destiny's case, because they never became an issue. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a job besides streaming, considering his financial issues, but couldn't find one. Ever thought about that? May I also point out, that you know jack and shit about the financial security of streaming?
I believe I just pointed out many valid points about the financial security of streaming. Here is the best one. What happens if Destiny no longer has a following? How much money from commercials would he get? How much is 60% of $0?
On January 20 2013 09:53 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming. Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them. Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check. So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you? Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
K, it is a job. What was his hourly rate since August? I think 0 Dollars an hour is less than minimum wage. Again maybe I didn't make my point clear. If his sole purpose in life was to make enough money to raise a family, and not have to worry about whether he would be able to work the next day, he would not be streaming.
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On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming. Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them. Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
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Noobskills the reason people are getting annoyed at your answer is simple:
The way you describe streaming is the same as any other form of self employment. It has irregular income and is not secure. Some people are self employed parents, who want to bring up a family in a good financial situation, and you are saying that this is a bad thing. Therefore, people will take offense to that. Can you see what i'm saying?
I know i'm kinda taking this off topic, but i just wanted to explain to you why people will feel strongly against what you are saying.
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On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this:
Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible.
This is an extraordinarily ignorant statement and simply wrong.
Let me elaborate:
Bill Amend, artist of FoxTrot, is Self Employed and is a parent.
Both Gabe and Tycho of Penny Arcade are Self Employed and parents.
Most actors who have children are self employed.
Self-employment is only risky if you are bad at what you do, or are abysmal with your money. Yes, streamers can possibly lose their ability to complete their job, but that doesn't make what they do for money "irresponsible" or "not a job".
I went to an art school, many of my former professors are no longer teaching, as they are able to contract their work out and earn enough money to not only survive, but also to keep their families alive, healthy, and happy.
Just because you don't know many instances where something exists, doesn't mean it does not exist.
EDIT: I'm keeping this up for the other guy. If you're honestly being sarcastic, then I apologize for my... aggressive statements.
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On January 20 2013 10:29 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this:
Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible. This is an extraordinarily ignorant statement and simply wrong.
I sure hope this is a troll
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On January 20 2013 10:29 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this:
Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible. This is an extraordinarily ignorant statement and simply wrong.
It was sarcastic... i gotta stop my sarcastic comments on here man
check out the following 2 posts i made...
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On January 20 2013 09:53 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming. Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them. Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check. So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you? Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
what he said is true, if you are just starting a family, esports is a very risky investment to make. I certainly wouldn't do it, and I doubt many others would either. It is a brand new industry, full of risks and holes.... and yes showing up to mcdonalds and flipping burgers is a more stable way to feed a child. He is just using his family, and his child to amplify his shitstorm on own3d. Both parties involved are not very smart
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On January 20 2013 10:34 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:53 ch33psh33p wrote:On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming. Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them. Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check. So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you? Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded? what he said is true, if you are just starting a family, esports is a very risky investment to make. I certainly wouldn't do it, and I doubt many others would either. It is a brand new industry, full of risks and holes.... and yes showing up to mcdonalds and flipping burgers is a more stable way to feed a child. He is just using his family, and his child to amplify his shitstorm on own3d. Both parties involved are not very smart
If you have years of data showing that you are able to work in any field and make x amount of dollars on average, which is either well above what you're estimating your expenses will be or have sufficient savings in order to take losses that may occur, there is absolutely nothing too risky about making a living in eSports.
The guy has been streaming for over 2 years and has plenty of data showing what he is making, what he should be making, and estimates on what he lost due to not being paid. There is nothing "not very smart" about what he's doing in the least, and there's nothing sensational about his wording.
He has a child, he needs to support that child, and his contracted agreement with a group was supposed to ensure that at the least he would be paid for the job that he completed. If he saw that his streaming would not be enough, there's nothing to say that he wouldn't have gotten that job at mcdonalds, but that's not the case. He made enough through ad revenue to support his family, assuming he was paid by his employer. He is bringing up the point about his child simply to show that this is not just him being affected here, and to create empathy (which is less sensational, and more honest and effective imo).
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On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this:
Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible.
Precisely..
I could care less what happens to Destiny as a "professional" gamer.
What I see is a man being irresponsible putting his kid at risk and using "the family" as an excuse.
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On January 20 2013 10:54 birdaholic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this:
Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible. Precisely.. I could care less what happens to Destiny as a "professional" gamer. What I see is a man being irresponsible putting his kid at risk and using "the family" as an excuse.
It sucks what happened to him, but is it not something he expected? To feed his family off playing a video game? Sorry but we don't live in the perfect nerdballer world where there are schools you can apply to for video games.
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On January 20 2013 09:53 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming. Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them. Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check. Once again what you are saying about streaming is true about any form of self employment. The whole argument smacks of jealousy to me. You think that because he enjoys his job its not a real job. That's not how the world works. You ever hear a professional poker player in an interview? Poker is their JOB. Streaming is Destiny's job. It fulfills every requirement of a job. It takes time and earns money - therefore: JOB. You want to make an argument that streaming is a job, fine. Streaming is a job. Now accept this as fact. Streaming is not a safe stable source if income. I only have an issue with the fact that he brings his kid into this. If he wanted a job, to secure a financial future for his family, he should have looked elsewhere outside of esports. Btw by your classification of a job Destiny has been out of a job for 9 months Again I don't understand why anyone used Owned in the first place. I do think they should pay their streamers, but they wont they will go into bankruptcy. From his article they're even wasting time/money looking for a legal way to not pay their streamers. Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. He had a contract. I'ts a job. Period. Had this contract been fulfilled, he would have been able to sustain his family. Neither of the things you brought up actually matter in Destiny's case, because they never became an issue. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a job besides streaming, considering his financial issues, but couldn't find one. Ever thought about that? May I also point out, that you know jack and shit about the financial security of streaming? I believe I just pointed out many valid points about the financial security of streaming. Here is the best one. What happens if Destiny no longer has a following? How much money from commercials would he get? How much is 60% of $0? Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:53 ch33psh33p wrote:On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming. Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them. Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check. So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you? Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded? K, it is a job. What was his hourly rate since August? I think 0 Dollars an hour is less than minimum wage. Again maybe I didn't make my point clear. If his sole purpose in life was to make enough money to raise a family, and not have to worry about whether he would be able to work the next day, he would not be streaming.
His rate since august is somewhere between $3000 and $7000 per month (per his statements on stream he's out between 15 and 35 thousand dollars). So taking even his low-ball amount into consideration, $3000 a month is what he should have been paid. Think of it this way, most places I've gotten jobs I've had to sign employment paperwork. These are my contracts. If my employer doesn't pay me I have the US Department of Labor to go to. If Destiny's employer doesn't pay him, he has to sue. Neither is less legitimate or less accurate, simply different ways to go about the same conclusion.
If you read the original post, you'd see that he DID bring this information up immediately, however because he had a contract he did not want to risk breaching it early. As long as you have savings enough to cover a delay in payment, if you honestly believe in the company and believe they will do the right thing, it might not be the most intelligent thing in the world but I don't fault them for being afraid or unsure about what consequences the breach of contract would create. When it got too bad, and he realized that he would have an issue if he was not paid, he left.
This may be an issue of naivete on the part of the streamers, but also remember that this is an incredibly young occupation, and there are certainly still kinks to work out. I'm sure if you were the first person doing whatever it is you do for a living you'd be extremely cautious about what decisions you make as well.
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On January 20 2013 10:56 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 10:54 birdaholic wrote:On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this:
Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible. Precisely.. I could care less what happens to Destiny as a "professional" gamer. What I see is a man being irresponsible putting his kid at risk and using "the family" as an excuse. It sucks what happened to him, but is it not something he expected? To feed his family off playing a video game? Sorry but we don't live in the perfect nerdballer world where there are schools you can apply to for video games.
Do you expect to not get paid when you do a job and are told you will be paid?
Where is this shit coming from? This is no different from being any other kind of personality, writers, artists, athletes, hell even business owners.
"Hey mr. cruise, do this movie for us! We'll give you a signing bonus and royalties"
"Hey mr. director, that sounds fantastic!"
movie is released. 6 months goes by.
"Hey mr. director, where's my royalty money? I've been trying to get my monthly payments for a long time!"
"Hey mr. cruise, we will pay you next month!"
another 6 months...
"Hey mr. director, where's my royalty money? I've been trying to get my monthly payments for a long time!"
"Hey mr. cruise, we will pay you next month!"
etc.
What you guys are posting leads me to believe you'd say the same thing about mr. cruise.
"To feed his family off pretending to be someone else?"
This is entertainment. It's a risky profession to have in general, but that doesn't mean you should expect to be dicked around, and should believe that it would be acceptable for you to be.
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I'm not the biggest fan of Destiny, especially since he basically started the whole "sky is falling" nonsense that SC2 is dying. However, this is some really shady stuff going on from own3d.tv and as someone who streams (all be it, at a very low level) I don't like seeing this kind of thing happen to anyone.
I'd be very interested to see own3d's side of what happened, if there is some information on what, if anything, they have said I'd love it if someone could point me in the right direction.
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On January 20 2013 11:07 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 10:56 biology]major wrote:On January 20 2013 10:54 birdaholic wrote:On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote:
I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this:
Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible. Precisely.. I could care less what happens to Destiny as a "professional" gamer. What I see is a man being irresponsible putting his kid at risk and using "the family" as an excuse. It sucks what happened to him, but is it not something he expected? To feed his family off playing a video game? Sorry but we don't live in the perfect nerdballer world where there are schools you can apply to for video games. Do you expect to not get paid when you do a job and are told you will be paid? Where is this shit coming from? This is no different from being any other kind of personality, writers, artists, athletes, hell even business owners. "Hey mr. cruise, do this movie for us! We'll give you a signing bonus and royalties" "Hey mr. director, that sounds fantastic!" movie is released. 6 months goes by. "Hey mr. director, where's my royalty money? I've been trying to get my monthly payments for a long time!" "Hey mr. cruise, we will pay you next month!" another 6 months... "Hey mr. director, where's my royalty money? I've been trying to get my monthly payments for a long time!" "Hey mr. cruise, we will pay you next month!" etc. What you guys are posting leads me to believe you'd say the same thing about mr. cruise. "To feed his family off pretending to be someone else?" This is entertainment. It's a risky profession to have in general, but that doesn't mean you should expect to be dicked around, and should believe that it would be acceptable for you to be.
No because the film industry is old as fuck, and you know the legitimate sources of income. Own3d is not reputable, and thats because the esports industry is new and we dont really know who the reputable are.
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On January 20 2013 07:54 DERPDERP wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
yea i really don't understand all this self employment bullshit, its completely besides the point. Destiny switched to owned and brought them TONS of viewers and owned was not on time or did not pay destiny at all. Teams/organizations seem to have it way easier with contracts because they pretty much know that a player wont come after them legally.
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On January 20 2013 10:58 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 09:53 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 09:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming. Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them. Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check. Once again what you are saying about streaming is true about any form of self employment. The whole argument smacks of jealousy to me. You think that because he enjoys his job its not a real job. That's not how the world works. You ever hear a professional poker player in an interview? Poker is their JOB. Streaming is Destiny's job. It fulfills every requirement of a job. It takes time and earns money - therefore: JOB. You want to make an argument that streaming is a job, fine. Streaming is a job. Now accept this as fact. Streaming is not a safe stable source if income. I only have an issue with the fact that he brings his kid into this. If he wanted a job, to secure a financial future for his family, he should have looked elsewhere outside of esports. Btw by your classification of a job Destiny has been out of a job for 9 months Again I don't understand why anyone used Owned in the first place. I do think they should pay their streamers, but they wont they will go into bankruptcy. From his article they're even wasting time/money looking for a legal way to not pay their streamers. On January 20 2013 09:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. He had a contract. I'ts a job. Period. Had this contract been fulfilled, he would have been able to sustain his family. Neither of the things you brought up actually matter in Destiny's case, because they never became an issue. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a job besides streaming, considering his financial issues, but couldn't find one. Ever thought about that? May I also point out, that you know jack and shit about the financial security of streaming? I believe I just pointed out many valid points about the financial security of streaming. Here is the best one. What happens if Destiny no longer has a following? How much money from commercials would he get? How much is 60% of $0? On January 20 2013 09:53 ch33psh33p wrote:On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! Please do explain why that is. Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming. Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them. Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check. So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you? Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded? K, it is a job. What was his hourly rate since August? I think 0 Dollars an hour is less than minimum wage. Again maybe I didn't make my point clear. If his sole purpose in life was to make enough money to raise a family, and not have to worry about whether he would be able to work the next day, he would not be streaming. His rate since august is somewhere between $3000 and $7000 per month (per his statements on stream he's out between 15 and 35 thousand dollars). So taking even his low-ball amount into consideration, $3000 a month is what he should have been paid. Think of it this way, most places I've gotten jobs I've had to sign employment paperwork. These are my contracts. If my employer doesn't pay me I have the US Department of Labor to go to. If Destiny's employer doesn't pay him, he has to sue. Neither is less legitimate or less accurate, simply different ways to go about the same conclusion. If you read the original post, you'd see that he DID bring this information up immediately, however because he had a contract he did not want to risk breaching it early. As long as you have savings enough to cover a delay in payment, if you honestly believe in the company and believe they will do the right thing, it might not be the most intelligent thing in the world but I don't fault them for being afraid or unsure about what consequences the breach of contract would create. When it got too bad, and he realized that he would have an issue if he was not paid, he left. This may be an issue of naivete on the part of the streamers, but also remember that this is an incredibly young occupation, and there are certainly still kinks to work out. I'm sure if you were the first person doing whatever it is you do for a living you'd be extremely cautious about what decisions you make as well.
If your employer doesn't pay you. You have those avenues. If Owned goes out of business, he has no real course of action. My point of every post was NOT that he doesn't deserve the money, it was that if he wants to bring up his kid in every argument there are safer ways to provide for a child. Yes, Owned is shady. Yes, he provided a service which he should get paid for. Yes, he was a moron for allowing this to go on. If a company like Owned who has a delayed payment schedule cannot get you your money on schedule there is obviously an issue.
I saw that he brought it up immediately. But think about the timetable of how they pay their streamers. 5 months he has been without payment. That should obviously be a red flag. If your boss doesn't pay you for 5 months what would you do? Again if he was unsure of what was in his contract again he made a mistake. And if he was still unsure why switch to twitch if that would open a loophole for them to not pay him?
Your last paragraph is dead on. But I want to add that it isn't that the industry is too young. It is that the consumer and the talent are too young and mostly uneducated. They have no clue what to do in any situation regarding their contracts, and breaches of their contracts. And with this young and uneducated group of people there will be sharks. Owned might turn out to be alright, but in many other situations the owners of these companies have profited highly while scamming their employees and consumers. The same thing happens over and over again with teams and tournaments who do the wrong thing, but again these gamers are unaware of how they should act and respond in these situations, so this scene will never change. Maybe, eventually when the pros of past grow up and form some sort of esports union this will be avoided, but none of these posts surprise me anymore.
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On January 20 2013 11:14 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 07:54 DERPDERP wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid. yea i really don't understand all this self employment bullshit, its completely besides the point. Destiny switched to owned and brought them TONS of viewers and owned was not on time or did not pay destiny at all. Teams/organizations seem to have it way easier with contracts because they pretty much know that a player wont come after them legally.
The self employment stuff has nothing to do with the issue at hand in the thread, which is that owned is a scam. I don't like Destiny, but he is right to bring this out to the public, regardless of how his reasons or how he chooses to make a living.
That being said, it's an interesting topic to discuss. Is it smart for someone to try to rely on streaming to raise a family? I feel bad for Destiny sometimes because I'm not sure he really has options. The side effect to his controversial personality which helps him to make money from streaming is that his name is all over the internet associated with lots racist slurs and stuff like that. I think finding employment that could really give him a stable livelihood would be pretty difficult if you consider that. Streaming really may be his best option, and even if I'm not a fan of him I hope esports remains stable and companies actually pay out so he can support his family. He's made a niche for himself, but in doing so has really cut a lot of options out of his life for the future.
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On January 20 2013 11:45 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 11:14 EleanorRIgby wrote:On January 20 2013 07:54 DERPDERP wrote:On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!! I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid. yea i really don't understand all this self employment bullshit, its completely besides the point. Destiny switched to owned and brought them TONS of viewers and owned was not on time or did not pay destiny at all. Teams/organizations seem to have it way easier with contracts because they pretty much know that a player wont come after them legally. The self employment stuff has nothing to do with the issue at hand in the thread, which is that owned is a scam. I don't like Destiny, but he is right to bring this out to the public, regardless of how his reasons or how he chooses to make a living. That being said, it's an interesting topic to discuss. Is it smart for someone to try to rely on streaming to raise a family? I feel bad for Destiny sometimes because I'm not sure he really has options. The side effect to his controversial personality which helps him to make money from streaming is that his name is all over the internet associated with lots racist slurs and stuff like that. I think finding employment that could really give him a stable livelihood would be pretty difficult if you consider that. Streaming really may be his best option, and even if I'm not a fan of him I hope esports remains stable and companies actually pay out so he can support his family. He's made a niche for himself, but in doing so has really cut a lot of options out of his life for the future.
The whole self-employment issue is irreverent. Because even though those who are self employed have similar risks to Destiny they are far reduced from what Destiny faces. They produce a known product that is commonplace in the market (in most situations). He streams games there are so many factors in his choice of an occupation that could result in him not being paid or even paid enough, that stating he is doing this for his family is a shame. He streams because the money is fast and good now. He streams because he likes to play video games. He doesn't have a real job because streaming is considerably easy. I really don't blame him. Owned is at fault, but he is playing video games because he wants to play video games.
Also I'm pretty sure in the past Destiny said somewhere that he held a normal job. I also think that his stream is more a show. Most people, even those with a crude sense of humor, racist ideals, even highly combative personalities will tune down their opinions at work and/or even tune them out. I'm sure he is capable of holding another job, he just prefers this one.
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Is it true that riot perma banned his LoL account for calling out Own3d, because riot and Own3d are buddies?
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On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote:
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I didn't like or dislike pro gamers,but I started hating hate pro gamers when i got a real job last year. I mean they are messing up their own futures. Come on!, it is just really dumb. When i think about. Wow, you screwed yourself is this is your best effort at living life? Really? Go to college and try and educate yourself. Whatever happens to you is your own fault for choose this.
Destiny tries to use his child as an excuse to get money. His family has nothing to do with the money it is his own fault for being a streamer. It comes with the packet so deal with it yourself.
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EPT
