|
On January 01 2013 03:42 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2012 06:19 emc wrote:
let's count
terran changes: hellion/HB, widowmine, raven, thor, sharing armor mech upgrades, medivac, reapers. that's 7 new buffs/changes
zerg: ultra, swarm host, hydra, viper, spore crawlers, mutas. that's 6 buffs/changes not including infestors because arguably they were nerfed.
protoss: oracle, tempest, void ray, carrier, MsC, DT shrine, phoenix. 7 buffs/changes.
yeah, terran really got screwed on this one. No I'm not convinced that terran got the short end of the stick, having armor mech upgrades share with air is such big buff.
But I do think some of the design choices on these changes are questionable. Blizzard still needs to change fungal, reapers and swarm hosts, so I agree that these new units don't add a whole lot more, but to say terran is completely screwed is just a big QQ This is a complete logic fail. Having the same number of changes is not equal to the quality of those changes.
I then go on to say I question some of the design choices. I don't like the new reapers or the hunter seeker, but it is a change that does change the game, just like a new unit does. HotS terran may not be complete yet, but the number of changes to the race aren't far off from the others. If reapers and ravens are adjusted correctly, we could see new strategies that involve them, these aren't new units but with the right tweaking they could offer so much more than WoL. If reapers and Ravens never existed in WoL (they might as well never have existed) but were introduced into HotS in their current state, I don't think terrans would be nearly as upset. Of course reapers and ravens are still subpar but if blizzard makes these old units better, then they might as well be new because of the options and strategies they present.
I want blizzard to get it right, don't mistake my post for complacency.
|
The problem with terran getting too many new units/mechanics is that the WoL terran already felt more complete as a race than protoss and zerg. On one hand Terran players feel bored because HotS is basically the same game to them, on the other hand Terran doesn't need as many pure design changes as zerg and protoss because most roles are already being filled. The biggest reason why Terran is (arguably?) the weakest race atm in WoL is that units across the board aren't as efficient as they probably ought to be. That and most of the WoL balance problems seem to be centered around zerg being too good, not Terran and/or Protoss being too bad.
|
On January 02 2013 07:30 Mikau wrote:
The problem with terran getting too many new units/mechanics is that the WoL terran already felt more complete as a race than protoss and zerg. On one hand Terran players feel bored because HotS is basically the same game to them, on the other hand Terran doesn't need as many pure design changes as zerg and protoss because most roles are already being filled. The biggest reason why Terran is (arguably?) the weakest race atm in WoL is that units across the board aren't as efficient as they probably ought to be. That and most of the WoL balance problems seem to be centered around zerg being too good, not Terran and/or Protoss being too bad.
The problem is that people only count "new buttons" that they can press.
A new unit is a new button they can press in some building and it comes with new buttons in the Grid.
An added ability on an old unit is a new button they can press.
A totally metagame breaking buff to Ultralisks or Reapers is not a new button, hence, it is visually nothing new, hence, QQ.
Someone posted earlier in this thread, that all 3races have received a similar amount of metagame-changing buffs/changes (6-7) so far. That's actually what is interesting. New buttons get old very fast. New gameplay options will cycle in and out of the metagame forever.
A lot of the "Terran gets the short end of the stick"-QQ feels just extremely unjustified. People consider things like Stargate play or Roach/Hydra/Viper "new", while Mech or Biomech with Hellbats and Widow Mines is "just a variation of Mech play and anyways: only 100000000000tanks is real mech, so I don't play it until tanks can deal with everything on their own...".
Seriously guys, watch some streams, play some games. It's completely different from what it has been in WoL for all races. Of course you can ignore WM and Hellbats and just play bio or biomech like Demuslim does. You can also go ahead and play like this with Hellbats and WM and two new buttons for Medivacs.
|
Big J, man you are the worst anti-terran whiner lately on TL.
Don't you get that building some jackshit mines is not exciting at all ? Whenever you do you feel like somebody is stepping their foot into your balls.
|
On January 02 2013 23:47 Godwrath wrote:
Big J, man you are the worst anti-terran whiner lately on TL.
Don't you get that building some jackshit mines is not exciting at all ? Whenever you do you feel like somebody is stepping their foot into your balls.
anti-terran whiner? Lol, Godwrath, man, dude, bro, homie.
I haven't whined one single time about Terran. Terran has a really hard time in TvZ these days on prolevel and foreign TvP isn't in much better shape either. I'd love to have some tournaments outside of GSL feature more Terrans.
But I'm seriously getting pissed of by forum Terrans circlejerking in despair about any tiny little thing they can find ("but Protoss gets 3 new units, why don't we?", "we only get one, Hellbats are just Hellions", "We don't get a single one, because Mines are no units" - Well, Vipers and Swarm Hosts are just buffed larva...), which is really really common these days.
Watch some games... Half of the scene was shitting their pants because of Widow Mines a few weeks ago. All over the forums Zergs have been crying for help against new biostyles and new lategame air styles.
So you guys don't want a mine, you didn't want a Warhound and you don't consider a Hellbat a new unit. What do you want? "Something new". Well you got something new. You are just the kid that sits under the christmas tree and doesn't like his new toys, because that other kid got something that you don't have.
|
Big J, i have the beta, i had watched streams, etc etc... i am not talking about balance. Many people will talk about how they play to improve and whatever, many other people (the most actually), just play casually. Did you forget the old times ? What was the first thing you did when you got a new RTS ? Or an expansion for a RTS ? You open the tech choices to get to play with your new toys, over and over. Why do you think many people will go to play after an important patch ? To re-discover these toys.
Do you really find building mines as something cool ? Maybe you find it tiny problem, i find it big. I don't give a crap about balance except if it making the game not entertaining to watch. But i do give a crap about what new toys i get when i buy something.
|
On January 03 2013 00:32 Godwrath wrote:
Big J, i have the beta, i had watched streams, etc etc... i am not talking about balance. Many people will talk about how they play to improve and whatever, many other people (the most actually), just play casually. Did you forget the old times ? What was the first thing you did when you got a new RTS ? Or an expansion for a RTS ? You open the tech choices to get to play with your new toys, over and over. Why do you think many people will go to play after an important patch ? To re-discover these toys.
Do you really find building mines as something cool ? Maybe you find it tiny problem, i find it big. I don't give a crap about balance except if it making the game not entertaining to watch. But i do give a crap about what new toys i get when i buy something.
Yes, and then you play with them for a week or two. And then you put them into your toy box and you go back to mostly playing with your favorite toy.
That's why I do believe that the sum of changes is much more interesting than the few new toys you get. I can open a random Zerg stream and be quite sure that I will see more Ultralisks and Hydralisks then Swarm Hosts these days, even though they are not new toys, just pimped old ones that have become more interesting.
And yes, I think mines are cool. You can do all sorts of cheeses with them, you can go more greedy on tanks with them if you go mech, because you can reactor out mines vs air. You can use them for some mappresence and you can force your opponent into certain techs with them. Hell, some people talk about them being able to run into a whole enemy army with the new priority change and blow it all up or force a retreat.
|
On January 02 2013 23:47 Godwrath wrote:
Big J, man you are the worst anti-terran whiner lately on TL.
Don't you get that building some jackshit mines is not exciting at all ? Whenever you do you feel like somebody is stepping their foot into your balls.
Yeah, nearly every time I see him post it seems to be something of this nature.
|
On January 03 2013 00:32 Godwrath wrote:
Big J, i have the beta, i had watched streams, etc etc... i am not talking about balance. Many people will talk about how they play to improve and whatever, many other people (the most actually), just play casually. Did you forget the old times ? What was the first thing you did when you got a new RTS ? Or an expansion for a RTS ? You open the tech choices to get to play with your new toys, over and over. Why do you think many people will go to play after an important patch ? To re-discover these toys.
Do you really find building mines as something cool ? Maybe you find it tiny problem, i find it big. I don't give a crap about balance except if it making the game not entertaining to watch. But i do give a crap about what new toys i get when i buy something.
I think this is why many Terrans are not keen on buying HotS. There has to be some selling point to playing Terran and it sure isn't removing the strike cannon or re-working the Thor. I also don't think the mines are much fun either. Balance aside, Blizzard has other problems.
|
|
|
On December 30 2012 08:30 Kluey wrote:Time for more Artosis "IMBALANCED!"-like content? 
Please, IdrA and Artosis make "IMBALANCED" episdode 4! Just remembering that throws me back 2 years. Maybe Greg will finally get his high five.
|
Terrans won't be buying the game? What???
- Hellbats are very strong
- Widow Mines are both great as early harass and then serious turtling (plus extremely good anti-harass, 1 in a mineral line do some ssssserious damage to mutas)
- The new Reaper is amazing for keeping Zerg in-check early game, it very much reminds me of reactor-Helion expand before the Queen patch
- The new Medivacs! The new Medivacs heal soooooo good! And fly soooooo fast! This was a unit that saw bread-and-butter play in the first place and has simply gotten better! How can you not be happy with this?
|
On January 03 2013 04:43 EvanC wrote:
Terrans won't be buying the game? What???
- Hellbats are very strong
- Widow Mines are both great as early harass and then serious turtling (plus extremely good anti-harass, 1 in a mineral line do some ssssserious damage to mutas)
- The new Reaper is amazing for keeping Zerg in-check early game, it very much reminds me of reactor-Helion expand before the Queen patch
- The new Medivacs! The new Medivacs heal soooooo good! And fly soooooo fast! This was a unit that saw bread-and-butter play in the first place and has simply gotten better! How can you not be happy with this?
Battle hellions lack mobility, sometimes it's still better to kite with it in default mode
Mine are good, but mainly an early-Midgame unit.
Reaper is good in tvt... Slightly better in the other matchups
Yup the new medivacs are pretty good
Games are probably gonna look the same (and are, I play as random on the beta quite a bit)
|
On January 03 2013 04:25 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 00:32 Godwrath wrote:
Big J, i have the beta, i had watched streams, etc etc... i am not talking about balance. Many people will talk about how they play to improve and whatever, many other people (the most actually), just play casually. Did you forget the old times ? What was the first thing you did when you got a new RTS ? Or an expansion for a RTS ? You open the tech choices to get to play with your new toys, over and over. Why do you think many people will go to play after an important patch ? To re-discover these toys.
Do you really find building mines as something cool ? Maybe you find it tiny problem, i find it big. I don't give a crap about balance except if it making the game not entertaining to watch. But i do give a crap about what new toys i get when i buy something. I think this is why many Terrans are not keen on buying HotS. There has to be some selling point to playing Terran and it sure isn't removing the strike cannon or re-working the Thor. I also don't think the mines are much fun either. Balance aside, Blizzard has other problems.
If I buy HotS, I'll play Protoss/Zerg as my main race, haven't decided yet. Right now I'm flipping a coin for Protoss/Zerg in all games (1v1, 2v2, 3v3) because Terran is basically the same from WoL, with a different strategies. I understand Terran is the most complete race and whatnot, but it's gotten to be so boring compared to the stuff the other two races can do. I'm still messing around with the medivac though, hopefully that can change some stuff.
And yes, BigJ loves to bash Terrans.
|
On December 30 2012 10:26 mango_destroyer wrote:
Terran has more variety than the other races already. So I can`t really complain about them not getting as much in HOTS.
This is true, even if it doesn't necessarily feel this way all the time... due to dead units like the Reaper, Raven, BC, and other matchup-specific duds.
If the resurrection proves successful, Terran will have at least as much variety as the other races in HotS.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
