Hey everyone, I just got done posting an interview with both EG IdrA and DeMusliM, talking a little about their own personal experiences with the HotS beta, and how they think balance of the game is shaping up to be.
Here's a few questions to get you started:
A comment a lot of players have been saying is that Terran in HotS feels almost identical to Terran in WoL. The exception of this may be how Terrans start using Widow Mines, but I can definitely see how the changes to Terran in HotS are not nearly as much as the changes and/or new strategies that Protoss and Zerg have been discovering. How much do you agree with Terran in HotS feeling the same to WoL, and is there any sort of change you feel Blizzard should make that would help Terran feel more unique in the new expansion?
DeMusliM: A lot of people are right, in that the changes for Terran aren’t half as interesting as for Zerg and Protoss. Hellions right now are a mobile unit that are made for harassing and dealing with light units — they have a role and purpose. They are going to be able to convert into a unit that’s made for dealing with Lings (which they already do pretty darn well) and Zealots (which isn’t needed since bio does that well enough anyway, especially with upgraded medivacs). Thors – well that’s another change that doesn’t change playstyle. The only somewhat change are Widow Mines, which have their defensive uses. I understand Blizzard have tried to make them more a battle usable unit which is cool and stuff, but the reality is there are just better alternatives. Would i rather have 10 widow mines (20 supply) try run in behind an army and blow it up (at the risk of dying before they even do anything), or would I rather have a double drop somewhere on the map, or 2 drops possibly killing 2 expansions simultaneously? The answer is pretty obvious to me.
The only thing I find significantly different is the strength of bio, it’s really fun to play again, and the Medivacs with there speed is really one of the best changes they could have done, maybe it needs some altering as it’s really good right now, but the other changes Terran has are really lacking compared to that of the other races, and Medivac changes in my opinion.
You also mentioned on stream that you haven’t found “the best” Zerg comp yet, but you’re really favoring Roach+Hydra+Viper due to its mobility and spell effects. Describe the best you can what makes this comp so strong and what are some apparent weaknesses that you found in it?
IdrA: Roach Hydra is very well designed to kill low tech stuff, Roaches sit and tank and Hydras kill stuff from behind. They’re very cost efficient but not supply efficient which makes them good for early action and back and forth battles where you can force engagements and you’re constantly resupplying. The weakness is to very powerful defensive units like tanks and Collosus that obliterate the Hydras from range and that are good for sitting back and waiting for late game situations. Viper’s abduct, and vs Terran blinding cloud, lets you force engagements and nullify a lot of the units that make it possible to kill Hydras before they kill you.
It’s not particularly good vs Terran in general simply because you need the burst dps of good fungal or Banelings to kill off bio, particularly vs the new medivacs, but to counter it you just kind of need to have good mechanics. As Protoss Templar tech will counter a single minded zerg who just goes Roach Hydra Viper regardless, however as Zerg if you scout that I think you should go Roach Hydra Infestor or possibly swarm host with support, and without Collosus Protoss will then be in trouble. So what I think protoss should be doing right now is going collosus very defensively and then getting Templar just for feedback, later for storm, support before vipers come into play.
i honestly think blizzard are out to piss every terran player off right now. 1 new unit essentially that is pretty much worthless. I really hope blizzard wakes up and smells the coffee for once and gets the game where it needs to be in terms of all matchups not only being fun and entertaining to watch but balanced.
I totally agree with the Terran design. Blizz will hopefully adjust some things.
I really like the reaper for early pressure in TvZ, but in TvT everybody is forced to build at least one until the first hit gamble starts ^^
Sadly Terran is also the race with the fewest design changes. Only the widow mine is a "new" unit for me. I feel Zerg and Protoss got "better" units, not in terms of balance but rather in terms of design.
I agree with DeMuslim completely. Terran needs better units in HoTS, as they're pretty stale compared to what Zerg and Protoss got.
The warhound and shredder were very bad ideas, so they should've consulted more regarding unit concepts and design. I hope they make a few good units before release though, as they're running out of time.
Just to play the devil's advocate, do consider that terran was already the race with the most stuff. They are the most versatile as is, so it's to be expected that there isn't as much that can be added without it seemingly superfluous (like spider mines).
I feel exactly the same way as Demuslim. Terran got absolutely shitty changes compared to the other races...
The Warhound was a dumb idea, they realized the community thought it was bad - what do they do? "remove it" Why not add another unit instead ? Why not try to fix it ?
I am hardcore Terran fan and looking at HOTS is depressing right now.. It's like watching Z and P having all these new units and abilities, and T is stuck with the same shit. I played maybe around 20 games in the beta and never touched it since, still think WoL is funnier despite the terrible status of the game.. I am really worried for the future of Esports as I lost all faith in Blizzard
On December 30 2012 08:59 Zenbrez wrote: I always like EG interviews, thanks!
And just because I see it very often in journalism, where ther are double spaces between words for half a sentence, what's the purpose - emphasis?
I can't speak for journalism in general, but our EG site uses Wordpress which auto formats those spaces in between sentences you're seeing. It's really for the sake of proper alignment with the rest of the article. I suppose I could change it, but never really thought about it lol.
On December 30 2012 09:12 WhiteSatin wrote: The Warhound was a dumb idea, they realized the community thought it was bad - what do they do? "remove it" Why not add another unit instead ?
That would take time and effort. Blizzard doubtlessly has milestones to meet when testing HotS and since mech TvP isn't working out from the very beginning it's much easier to just cut it out entirely.
I'm not quite sure I like Demuslims things he said, then again I guess he does prefer bio. I just think some of the things he's saying are just because he doesn't play mech all that often so doesn't see the importance of like the hellbat in TvP.
I still respect his opinions though, he's a great guy and a fellokw brit. :D
While I agree with Demuslim in the long run, right now I'm actually having fun trying out widow mines + increased medivac harass, so I don't have such a pessimistic outlook as some other terrans. Besides that, I always felt that terran was the well-designed race. It's just now zerg has a bunch of units that are fun and interesting and can even be called well-designed, while terran only has the 'well-designed' part down...not fun and innovative. And poor protoss. I have my opinions but I'd really like to see a pro's thoughts on the race. Maybe Incontrol can have an interview after the holidays.
Zerg is the only one looking fun in the long run. And the way Idra is talking about it even makes it seem more fun and intricate, which makes me at least a little excited for HOTS.
On December 30 2012 09:02 KanoCoke wrote: I agree with DeMuslim completely. Terran needs better units in HoTS, as they're pretty stale compared to what Zerg and Protoss got.
The warhound and shredder were very bad ideas, so they should've consulted more regarding unit concepts and design. I hope they make a few good units before release though, as they're running out of time.
The problem was that Terran was already so diverse in WoL while the other two were pretty linear (especially Zerg). There were so many openings for Terran that if a Zerg didn't have perfect scouting (lolgoodluck) they would just flat out die. That's why so many nerfs were introduced to Terran specifically.
Now Blizzard is doing what they should have done in the first place, by giving the other races more options to help balance it out rather than nerfing existing units.
Blizzard is biased toward zerg and protoss. Even Morhaime plays terran. DK and DB should buff terran if they don't want to be fired because Morhaime is pissed that he couldn't get out of bronze.
Thanks for the interview guys. I hope that Blizz reads into demuslim's comments and that more people share his ideas. I'm not seeing how Terran is gaining new strategies and diversity from HotS. The comparison of the raven to the battle cruiser is spot on and it raises questions as to the use of the yamato canon. With the buff bio is getting, blizzard really needs new ideas with mech.
terran is really strong vs protoss atm, just watch supernovas stream. the new medivak abilities are INSANELY strong especially when you factor in the blink nerf.. its so hard to react to drops and even when you do its almost impossible to snipe the medivak. also, the new healing upgrade negates AOE damage soooooo well, it makes terrans lategame army so powerful and cost effective T_T
and out of all the zerg units the ultralisk is by far the most broken unit, voidrays are also too stong
On December 30 2012 09:02 KanoCoke wrote: I agree with DeMuslim completely. Terran needs better units in HoTS, as they're pretty stale compared to what Zerg and Protoss got.
The warhound and shredder were very bad ideas, so they should've consulted more regarding unit concepts and design. I hope they make a few good units before release though, as they're running out of time.
The problem was that Terran was already so diverse in WoL while the other two were pretty linear (especially Zerg). There were so many openings for Terran that if a Zerg didn't have perfect scouting (lolgoodluck) they would just flat out die. That's why so many nerfs were introduced to Terran specifically.
Now Blizzard is doing what they should have done in the first place, by giving the other races more options to help balance it out rather than nerfing existing units.
wait? are you talking about WOL 2010? We live in 2012. Surviving with zerg early game is eaz.
Given the timing (Idra hadn't played beta for 2 weeks before the interview), it seems he's talking about the 8-range, slow missile Infestors, which were effectively shit.
On December 30 2012 09:02 KanoCoke wrote: I agree with DeMuslim completely. Terran needs better units in HoTS, as they're pretty stale compared to what Zerg and Protoss got.
The warhound and shredder were very bad ideas, so they should've consulted more regarding unit concepts and design. I hope they make a few good units before release though, as they're running out of time.
The problem was that Terran was already so diverse in WoL while the other two were pretty linear (especially Zerg). There were so many openings for Terran that if a Zerg didn't have perfect scouting (lolgoodluck) they would just flat out die. That's why so many nerfs were introduced to Terran specifically.
Now Blizzard is doing what they should have done in the first place, by giving the other races more options to help balance it out rather than nerfing existing units.
wait? are you talking about WOL 2010? We live in 2012. Surviving with zerg early game is eaz.
After how many nerfs? My point was that Terran was already so diverse before infinite nerfs were put in place. Balancing by making units better or putting better units into play is better than funneling all play down into specific routes due to constant nerfing.
Thanks for the interview! I felt exactly the same as Demuslim. I feel the new units were meh and that P and Z got the better end of the deal. Hopefully Blizz will feel the same way and adds in some changes.
On December 30 2012 11:27 ROOTT1 wrote: terran is really strong vs protoss atm, just watch supernovas stream. the new medivak abilities are INSANELY strong especially when you factor in the blink nerf.. its so hard to react to drops and even when you do its almost impossible to snipe the medivak. also, the new healing upgrade negates AOE damage soooooo well, it makes terrans lategame army so powerful and cost effective T_T
and out of all the zerg units the ultralisk is by far the most broken unit, voidrays are also too stong
To be fair supernovas better then like 99% of people who have a beta key. But I do agree, souped up medivacs and also particularly thors are super duper good vs Protoss. Even if I play kinda poorly I never lost when I got to thor/caduceus in my tvp's.
On December 30 2012 10:27 Qikz wrote: I'm not quite sure I like Demuslims things he said, then again I guess he does prefer bio. I just think some of the things he's saying are just because he doesn't play mech all that often so doesn't see the importance of like the hellbat in TvP.
I still respect his opinions though, he's a great guy and a fellokw brit. :D
My thoughts exactly... Hellbats aren't really needed, because he plays bio, but what about Mech? Should I use Widow Mines, or Drops? Than again, the same question, what about Mech? He is constantly explaining how new units aren't that good with Bio, while they aren't made for Bio in the first place.
I agree with DeMusliM, bio is better, mech isn't. I really hope they try to improve mech..... I do think the hellbat should stay since it's good for the casual player while not interfering with the professional scene. The reaper needs to be changed again since it forces how you open TvT which is really boring. Both Terran and Zerg might need a new lategame anti-air unit...
Ravens need to get their AoE back, their single target spell sucks.
On December 30 2012 09:12 WhiteSatin wrote: I feel exactly the same way as Demuslim. Terran got absolutely shitty changes compared to the other races...
The Warhound was a dumb idea, they realized the community thought it was bad - what do they do? "remove it" Why not add another unit instead ? Why not try to fix it ?
I am hardcore Terran fan and looking at HOTS is depressing right now.. It's like watching Z and P having all these new units and abilities, and T is stuck with the same shit. I played maybe around 20 games in the beta and never touched it since, still think WoL is funnier despite the terrible status of the game.. I am really worried for the future of Esports as I lost all faith in Blizzard
well Terran was the best designed race in WoL, so it feels natural that they may need alot less changes. To fix inherent design issues.
On December 30 2012 09:12 WhiteSatin wrote: I feel exactly the same way as Demuslim. Terran got absolutely shitty changes compared to the other races...
The Warhound was a dumb idea, they realized the community thought it was bad - what do they do? "remove it" Why not add another unit instead ? Why not try to fix it ?
I am hardcore Terran fan and looking at HOTS is depressing right now.. It's like watching Z and P having all these new units and abilities, and T is stuck with the same shit. I played maybe around 20 games in the beta and never touched it since, still think WoL is funnier despite the terrible status of the game.. I am really worried for the future of Esports as I lost all faith in Blizzard
well Terran was the best designed race in WoL, so it feels natural that they may need alot less changes. To fix inherent design issues.
Yup that pretty much sums it up, plus the fact that 3/3 marines + Medivac healing buff will turn those 50 mineral units called marines into slaughter houses. Blizzard have sort of locked themselves into a design problems, as to make Mech viable compared to bio it would be completely overpowered.
Protoss definitely needs changes to make it a better race to play ( still wish warp gate was removed), and hopefully the Zerg infester will get a good Nerf, if the new units round out the race as a whole
It is true but I still feel like shit being given almost nothing and having to adapt to the new cool stuff that P and Z got. I'm gonna lose my mind on ladder when there will be 14 different Protoss allins coming my way.
It is true but I still feel like shit being given almost nothing and having to adapt to the new cool stuff that P and Z got. I'm gonna lose my mind on ladder when there will be 14 different Protoss allins coming my way.
That's just a question of balancing. Blizzard has shown before that those situations are the ones that get adressed the most.
Good read. As others have already mentioned; Terrans were the best designed race in WoL (not balance wise, design wise)
I wish the other races would be more "core army" based rather than spellcaster based.
But I understand that with the clumping up, the unlimited amount of selections (I think its 250 thats max amount of units per control-group)
AND the healing from medivacs, bio balls (backed up by Siege tanks and thors in TvZ) would be way too strong without units such as colossus / infestors / sentries.
again, I just wish that there was a way to redesign sc2 to bring back the importance of Gateway units and direct engagement units for zerg.
Couldn't agree more with DeMuslim. HotS is little more than "Bio+" and widow mines. Basically, it took Blizzard two years to come up with a medivac upgrade and a crappy version of the spidermine. Yay.
A couple of video game players who have less gaming experience than me, talking about game design. Why would I listen to them again? Not to mention these guys are not competitors, they're in it for the money, nothing else.
On December 31 2012 01:05 Al Bundy wrote: A couple of video game players who have less gaming experience than me, talking about game design. Why would I listen to them again? Not to mention these guys are not competitors, they're in it for the money, nothing else.
If all you care about is money you certainly don't go into progaming you dumbass. :-\
On December 30 2012 09:12 WhiteSatin wrote: I feel exactly the same way as Demuslim. Terran got absolutely shitty changes compared to the other races...
The Warhound was a dumb idea, they realized the community thought it was bad - what do they do? "remove it" Why not add another unit instead ? Why not try to fix it ?
I am hardcore Terran fan and looking at HOTS is depressing right now.. It's like watching Z and P having all these new units and abilities, and T is stuck with the same shit. I played maybe around 20 games in the beta and never touched it since, still think WoL is funnier despite the terrible status of the game.. I am really worried for the future of Esports as I lost all faith in Blizzard
well Terran was the best designed race in WoL, so it feels natural that they may need alot less changes. To fix inherent design issues.
I don't understand this at all, why do people keep saying that Terran are the best designed race? They might have been at the start of Wol or during Beta, but right now its definetely not true.
I'm forced to play bio in tvp and have no natural way to transition out of this. Same goes for TvZ where you cant transition out of Bio or Mech in a natural way ( kind of changed a bit in hots with mech upgrades now)
Basically you see no change in playstyles anymore, cos nothing else is viable Reaper/Thor/BC/Ghost all scrapped to be almost completely unviable.
On topic now :D Thanks for these kind of interviews, find them really interesting
On December 30 2012 09:12 WhiteSatin wrote: I feel exactly the same way as Demuslim. Terran got absolutely shitty changes compared to the other races...
The Warhound was a dumb idea, they realized the community thought it was bad - what do they do? "remove it" Why not add another unit instead ? Why not try to fix it ?
I am hardcore Terran fan and looking at HOTS is depressing right now.. It's like watching Z and P having all these new units and abilities, and T is stuck with the same shit. I played maybe around 20 games in the beta and never touched it since, still think WoL is funnier despite the terrible status of the game.. I am really worried for the future of Esports as I lost all faith in Blizzard
well Terran was the best designed race in WoL, so it feels natural that they may need alot less changes. To fix inherent design issues.
Yup that pretty much sums it up, plus the fact that 3/3 marines + Medivac healing buff will turn those 50 mineral units called marines into slaughter houses. Blizzard have sort of locked themselves into a design problems, as to make Mech viable compared to bio it would be completely overpowered.
Protoss definitely needs changes to make it a better race to play ( still wish warp gate was removed), and hopefully the Zerg infester will get a good Nerf, if the new units round out the race as a whole
Yeah, I don't envy them at all. Can you picture that discussion?
DK: Ok, so we are going to try and make mech play viable in HotS. That means no bio units.
Game Designer A: So you want us to make the factory build something that is as good at the marine? The marine? The 50 minerals killing machine? The core of nearly every balance problem we have in WoL?
DK: Yes, the community has shown us that bio units should not be in mech-style play. Also, we want an upgrade for medivac healing and it make it more energy efficient.
Game Designer B: Ok, so I am going to need the services department to provide me with bottles of Jack Daniels a week. Just expense it directly to my paycheck, I'll use it as a tax write off.
On December 31 2012 02:54 Plansix wrote: Game Designer A: So you want us to make the factory build something that is as good at the marine? The marine? The 50 minerals killing machine? The core of nearly every balance problem we have in WoL?
You're telling yourself fairy tales if you really think that SC2 problems come from the Marine.
On December 30 2012 09:06 MCXD wrote: Just to play the devil's advocate, do consider that terran was already the race with the most stuff. They are the most versatile as is, so it's to be expected that there isn't as much that can be added without it seemingly superfluous (like spider mines).
I agree with this, I don't think it'd make much sense to add as much stuff to Terran as they added to Protoss and Zerg. Terran was by far the most completed race in WoL (do NOT confuse with the most powerful/easy/whatever).
On December 30 2012 09:06 MCXD wrote: Just to play the devil's advocate, do consider that terran was already the race with the most stuff. They are the most versatile as is, so it's to be expected that there isn't as much that can be added without it seemingly superfluous (like spider mines).
I agree with this, I don't think it'd make much sense to add as much stuff to Terran as they added to Protoss and Zerg. Terran was by far the most completed race in WoL (do NOT confuse with the most powerful/easy/whatever).
I think most terrans are satifised with mech being viable tvp. Also one of our new units (the mine) currently is very gimmicky, and I think useless in other other matchups than tvz, which is a shame.
On December 31 2012 02:54 Plansix wrote: Game Designer A: So you want us to make the factory build something that is as good at the marine? The marine? The 50 minerals killing machine? The core of nearly every balance problem we have in WoL?
You're telling yourself fairy tales if you really think that SC2 problems come from the Marine.
In the early days of WoL, the marine was pretty amazing. This was before they increased the build time for stim, made maps larger with easy to defend naturals, increased the bunker build time, changed charge so it would connect with kiting marines and made fungle so it would out damage medivacs when cast on marines(that last change has proven to be not so good). They never nerfed the marine, just everything around.
On December 30 2012 09:06 MCXD wrote: Just to play the devil's advocate, do consider that terran was already the race with the most stuff. They are the most versatile as is, so it's to be expected that there isn't as much that can be added without it seemingly superfluous (like spider mines).
I agree with this, I don't think it'd make much sense to add as much stuff to Terran as they added to Protoss and Zerg. Terran was by far the most completed race in WoL (do NOT confuse with the most powerful/easy/whatever).
I think most terrans are satifised with mech being viable tvp. Also one of our new units (the mine) currently is very gimmicky, and I think useless in other other matchups than tvz, which is a shame.
I think they should make the mine do more AOE damage, but I also don't want to deal with idiots trying to get free wins by rushing them into my mineral line. I kinda wish Blizzard would just bit the bullet, buff their AOE damage and make it so they don't target workers.
So basically I want them to be awesome in a battle when used by a good player, but not annoying to the point where I want to throw my monitor across the room.
On December 31 2012 02:54 Plansix wrote: Game Designer A: So you want us to make the factory build something that is as good at the marine? The marine? The 50 minerals killing machine? The core of nearly every balance problem we have in WoL?
You're telling yourself fairy tales if you really think that SC2 problems come from the Marine.
In the early days of WoL, the marine was pretty amazing. This was before they increased the build time for stim, made maps larger with easy to defend naturals, increased the bunker build time, changed charge so it would connect with kiting marines and made fungle so it would out damage medivacs when cast on marines(that last change has proven to be not so good). They never nerfed the marine, just everything around.
still, without fungal and other casdters /aoe damage, with the unlimited unit selection and the clumping up unitmovement, bioballs + medivacs = sooooo god damn gamebreaking. I think hes right, all in all, marines are what is breaking the game, without the way the mechanics work with movement and unlimited unit selection, without the buffs rines got from sc bw , sentries wouldnt have to be in the game, neither colo or infestors
On December 31 2012 01:05 Al Bundy wrote: A couple of video game players who have less gaming experience than me, talking about game design. Why would I listen to them again? Not to mention these guys are not competitors, they're in it for the money, nothing else.
Who cares about gaming experience? They're way, way better than you are at this game.
yeah, terran really got screwed on this one. No I'm not convinced that terran got the short end of the stick, having armor mech upgrades share with air is such big buff.
But I do think some of the design choices on these changes are questionable. Blizzard still needs to change fungal, reapers and swarm hosts, so I agree that these new units don't add a whole lot more, but to say terran is completely screwed is just a big QQ
I agree with Demuslim that Terran plays pretty much the same as WoL. Although it may be balanced, it's not very fun for Terran players.
PvZ is completely flipped now with Roach/Hydra being such a strong composition midgame and Colossus being hard-countered by Vipers. Although Skytoss got big buff, it's really hard to survive against a midgame roach/hydra push.
On December 30 2012 09:06 MCXD wrote: Just to play the devil's advocate, do consider that terran was already the race with the most stuff. They are the most versatile as is, so it's to be expected that there isn't as much that can be added without it seemingly superfluous (like spider mines).
I agree with this, I don't think it'd make much sense to add as much stuff to Terran as they added to Protoss and Zerg. Terran was by far the most completed race in WoL (do NOT confuse with the most powerful/easy/whatever).
I think most terrans are satifised with mech being viable tvp. Also one of our new units (the mine) currently is very gimmicky, and I think useless in other other matchups than tvz, which is a shame.
I think they should make the mine do more AOE damage, but I also don't want to deal with idiots trying to get free wins by rushing them into my mineral line. I kinda wish Blizzard would just bit the bullet, buff their AOE damage and make it so they don't target workers.
So basically I want them to be awesome in a battle when used by a good player, but not annoying to the point where I want to throw my monitor across the room.
Give Probes/SCV's/Drones an extra tag called "Harvester" and make mines unable to target units with that tag. And increase aoe damage to 150.
On December 31 2012 02:54 Plansix wrote: Game Designer A: So you want us to make the factory build something that is as good at the marine? The marine? The 50 minerals killing machine? The core of nearly every balance problem we have in WoL?
You're telling yourself fairy tales if you really think that SC2 problems come from the Marine.
In the early days of WoL, the marine was pretty amazing. This was before they increased the build time for stim, made maps larger with easy to defend naturals, increased the bunker build time, changed charge so it would connect with kiting marines and made fungle so it would out damage medivacs when cast on marines(that last change has proven to be not so good). They never nerfed the marine, just everything around.
still, without fungal and other casdters /aoe damage, with the unlimited unit selection and the clumping up unitmovement, bioballs + medivacs = sooooo god damn gamebreaking. I think hes right, all in all, marines are what is breaking the game, without the way the mechanics work with movement and unlimited unit selection, without the buffs rines got from sc bw , sentries wouldnt have to be in the game, neither colo or infestors
Marines would have been a dominant force in BW too if not for AOE damage. Tanks, reavers, and lurkers all made sure that wasn't the case. The major difference is, those units were all designed well and made the game better because they were really strong but had to be positioned/controlled very well to get the most out of due to major vulnerabilities. The same can't be said of infestors and colossi.
To flip things around, how many games do you think Terran would ever win against Zerg or Protoss if marines weren't as good as they are?
yeah, terran really got screwed on this one. No I'm not convinced that terran got the short end of the stick, having armor mech upgrades share with air is such big buff.
But I do think some of the design choices on these changes are questionable. Blizzard still needs to change fungal, reapers and swarm hosts, so I agree that these new units don't add a whole lot more, but to say terran is completely screwed is just a big QQ
A mine and a new mode for an existing unit is extremely dull compared to the three and two entirely new units Protoss and Zerg are getting respectively. It's really clear that Terran is getting the short end of the stick here. Not to mention Blizzard is fucking up TvT badly by making reaper mandatory.
Good stuff! All the terran changes just lack originality so much. The two new units are basically just copied from Brood War, and ravens now have yamato for some reason. That being said, a a significant portion of the zerg changes are taken from Brood War as well.
Although the fact that Widow mines can come out so quickly and kill a mineral line is pretty ridiculous. Also I wish Ultras had burrow charge, Ultra/Hydra/ling was a combo I was REALLY looking forward to trying vs Terran and Toss
I just hope fungal is changed to not affect air units. I absolutely despise the PvZ MU because of fungal growth alone. Stargate harassment builds are simply not viable because of chain fungal growths. The other day I opened 4 phoenix after FE and was excited when he didn't scout me at all because I knew I would surprise him. Then as I get to his base I pick up one queen and out come infestors who perfectly countered my build without even scouting. The thing is...with infestors he would have countered pretty much any build I could have done. I want to be able to harass effectively without just attacking.
On December 30 2012 09:06 MCXD wrote: Just to play the devil's advocate, do consider that terran was already the race with the most stuff. They are the most versatile as is, so it's to be expected that there isn't as much that can be added without it seemingly superfluous (like spider mines).
Yeah, definitely.
Terran have a lot of fancy things they can do (tech lab or reactor lab swapping, supply depots, their Orbital Command, etc) and has the most flexibility in terms of BO choices (most noticeably in lower levels, if you randomly play Zerg or Protoss and don't know the exact BO, you're screwed but Terran can get off doing random stuff and surviving). Plus a lot of people in 2010-2011 agreed that Terran was the most complete race.
This is coming from a once Terran (now random) player.
Though, I'd like them to add new upgrades or stuff.
They added new abilities (medivac speed upgrade, the heal upgrade, etc) but they're kind of generic.
I'd like the fire suppression systems (from single player), which puts out fires and simply looks cool.
If only for the coolness factor, they should add fire suppression system.
In fact, in my SC2 custom maps, I took the fire suppression system... and DOUBLED IT (oh noes, I did copied Jay Wilson).
What I did, I made a new behavior for the fire suppression system, a cloned the actors.
However, I scaled the time so the fire suppression system (the second one) starts off like 1-2 seconds earlier (instead of a "Start or beginning", I just skipped to the main part of the animation which is about 1-2 seconds earlier).
Now whenever my structures are on fire, 4 flying bots put out the fires and it just looks cool.
So... yeah add Fire Suppression Level 1 and Level 2 (which lets you have 4 flying bots) to Terran and every Terran fan will cheer.
yeah, terran really got screwed on this one. No I'm not convinced that terran got the short end of the stick, having armor mech upgrades share with air is such big buff.
But I do think some of the design choices on these changes are questionable. Blizzard still needs to change fungal, reapers and swarm hosts, so I agree that these new units don't add a whole lot more, but to say terran is completely screwed is just a big QQ
This is a complete logic fail. Having the same number of changes is not equal to the quality of those changes.
yeah, terran really got screwed on this one. No I'm not convinced that terran got the short end of the stick, having armor mech upgrades share with air is such big buff.
But I do think some of the design choices on these changes are questionable. Blizzard still needs to change fungal, reapers and swarm hosts, so I agree that these new units don't add a whole lot more, but to say terran is completely screwed is just a big QQ
This is a complete logic fail. Having the same number of changes is not equal to the quality of those changes.
I then go on to say I question some of the design choices. I don't like the new reapers or the hunter seeker, but it is a change that does change the game, just like a new unit does. HotS terran may not be complete yet, but the number of changes to the race aren't far off from the others. If reapers and ravens are adjusted correctly, we could see new strategies that involve them, these aren't new units but with the right tweaking they could offer so much more than WoL. If reapers and Ravens never existed in WoL (they might as well never have existed) but were introduced into HotS in their current state, I don't think terrans would be nearly as upset. Of course reapers and ravens are still subpar but if blizzard makes these old units better, then they might as well be new because of the options and strategies they present.
I want blizzard to get it right, don't mistake my post for complacency.
The problem with terran getting too many new units/mechanics is that the WoL terran already felt more complete as a race than protoss and zerg. On one hand Terran players feel bored because HotS is basically the same game to them, on the other hand Terran doesn't need as many pure design changes as zerg and protoss because most roles are already being filled. The biggest reason why Terran is (arguably?) the weakest race atm in WoL is that units across the board aren't as efficient as they probably ought to be. That and most of the WoL balance problems seem to be centered around zerg being too good, not Terran and/or Protoss being too bad.
On January 02 2013 07:30 Mikau wrote: The problem with terran getting too many new units/mechanics is that the WoL terran already felt more complete as a race than protoss and zerg. On one hand Terran players feel bored because HotS is basically the same game to them, on the other hand Terran doesn't need as many pure design changes as zerg and protoss because most roles are already being filled. The biggest reason why Terran is (arguably?) the weakest race atm in WoL is that units across the board aren't as efficient as they probably ought to be. That and most of the WoL balance problems seem to be centered around zerg being too good, not Terran and/or Protoss being too bad.
The problem is that people only count "new buttons" that they can press. A new unit is a new button they can press in some building and it comes with new buttons in the Grid. An added ability on an old unit is a new button they can press. A totally metagame breaking buff to Ultralisks or Reapers is not a new button, hence, it is visually nothing new, hence, QQ.
Someone posted earlier in this thread, that all 3races have received a similar amount of metagame-changing buffs/changes (6-7) so far. That's actually what is interesting. New buttons get old very fast. New gameplay options will cycle in and out of the metagame forever.
A lot of the "Terran gets the short end of the stick"-QQ feels just extremely unjustified. People consider things like Stargate play or Roach/Hydra/Viper "new", while Mech or Biomech with Hellbats and Widow Mines is "just a variation of Mech play and anyways: only 100000000000tanks is real mech, so I don't play it until tanks can deal with everything on their own...".
Seriously guys, watch some streams, play some games. It's completely different from what it has been in WoL for all races. Of course you can ignore WM and Hellbats and just play bio or biomech like Demuslim does. You can also go ahead and play like this with Hellbats and WM and two new buttons for Medivacs.
Big J, man you are the worst anti-terran whiner lately on TL.
Don't you get that building some jackshit mines is not exciting at all ? Whenever you do you feel like somebody is stepping their foot into your balls.
On January 02 2013 23:47 Godwrath wrote: Big J, man you are the worst anti-terran whiner lately on TL.
Don't you get that building some jackshit mines is not exciting at all ? Whenever you do you feel like somebody is stepping their foot into your balls.
anti-terran whiner? Lol, Godwrath, man, dude, bro, homie. I haven't whined one single time about Terran. Terran has a really hard time in TvZ these days on prolevel and foreign TvP isn't in much better shape either. I'd love to have some tournaments outside of GSL feature more Terrans.
But I'm seriously getting pissed of by forum Terrans circlejerking in despair about any tiny little thing they can find ("but Protoss gets 3 new units, why don't we?", "we only get one, Hellbats are just Hellions", "We don't get a single one, because Mines are no units" - Well, Vipers and Swarm Hosts are just buffed larva...), which is really really common these days.
Watch some games... Half of the scene was shitting their pants because of Widow Mines a few weeks ago. All over the forums Zergs have been crying for help against new biostyles and new lategame air styles. So you guys don't want a mine, you didn't want a Warhound and you don't consider a Hellbat a new unit. What do you want? "Something new". Well you got something new. You are just the kid that sits under the christmas tree and doesn't like his new toys, because that other kid got something that you don't have.
Big J, i have the beta, i had watched streams, etc etc... i am not talking about balance. Many people will talk about how they play to improve and whatever, many other people (the most actually), just play casually. Did you forget the old times ? What was the first thing you did when you got a new RTS ? Or an expansion for a RTS ? You open the tech choices to get to play with your new toys, over and over. Why do you think many people will go to play after an important patch ? To re-discover these toys.
Do you really find building mines as something cool ? Maybe you find it tiny problem, i find it big. I don't give a crap about balance except if it making the game not entertaining to watch. But i do give a crap about what new toys i get when i buy something.
On January 03 2013 00:32 Godwrath wrote: Big J, i have the beta, i had watched streams, etc etc... i am not talking about balance. Many people will talk about how they play to improve and whatever, many other people (the most actually), just play casually. Did you forget the old times ? What was the first thing you did when you got a new RTS ? Or an expansion for a RTS ? You open the tech choices to get to play with your new toys, over and over. Why do you think many people will go to play after an important patch ? To re-discover these toys.
Do you really find building mines as something cool ? Maybe you find it tiny problem, i find it big. I don't give a crap about balance except if it making the game not entertaining to watch. But i do give a crap about what new toys i get when i buy something.
Yes, and then you play with them for a week or two. And then you put them into your toy box and you go back to mostly playing with your favorite toy. That's why I do believe that the sum of changes is much more interesting than the few new toys you get. I can open a random Zerg stream and be quite sure that I will see more Ultralisks and Hydralisks then Swarm Hosts these days, even though they are not new toys, just pimped old ones that have become more interesting.
And yes, I think mines are cool. You can do all sorts of cheeses with them, you can go more greedy on tanks with them if you go mech, because you can reactor out mines vs air. You can use them for some mappresence and you can force your opponent into certain techs with them. Hell, some people talk about them being able to run into a whole enemy army with the new priority change and blow it all up or force a retreat.
On January 02 2013 23:47 Godwrath wrote: Big J, man you are the worst anti-terran whiner lately on TL.
Don't you get that building some jackshit mines is not exciting at all ? Whenever you do you feel like somebody is stepping their foot into your balls.
Yeah, nearly every time I see him post it seems to be something of this nature.
On January 03 2013 00:32 Godwrath wrote: Big J, i have the beta, i had watched streams, etc etc... i am not talking about balance. Many people will talk about how they play to improve and whatever, many other people (the most actually), just play casually. Did you forget the old times ? What was the first thing you did when you got a new RTS ? Or an expansion for a RTS ? You open the tech choices to get to play with your new toys, over and over. Why do you think many people will go to play after an important patch ? To re-discover these toys.
Do you really find building mines as something cool ? Maybe you find it tiny problem, i find it big. I don't give a crap about balance except if it making the game not entertaining to watch. But i do give a crap about what new toys i get when i buy something.
I think this is why many Terrans are not keen on buying HotS. There has to be some selling point to playing Terran and it sure isn't removing the strike cannon or re-working the Thor. I also don't think the mines are much fun either. Balance aside, Blizzard has other problems.
- Hellbats are very strong - Widow Mines are both great as early harass and then serious turtling (plus extremely good anti-harass, 1 in a mineral line do some ssssserious damage to mutas) - The new Reaper is amazing for keeping Zerg in-check early game, it very much reminds me of reactor-Helion expand before the Queen patch - The new Medivacs! The new Medivacs heal soooooo good! And fly soooooo fast! This was a unit that saw bread-and-butter play in the first place and has simply gotten better! How can you not be happy with this?
On January 03 2013 04:43 EvanC wrote: Terrans won't be buying the game? What???
- Hellbats are very strong - Widow Mines are both great as early harass and then serious turtling (plus extremely good anti-harass, 1 in a mineral line do some ssssserious damage to mutas) - The new Reaper is amazing for keeping Zerg in-check early game, it very much reminds me of reactor-Helion expand before the Queen patch - The new Medivacs! The new Medivacs heal soooooo good! And fly soooooo fast! This was a unit that saw bread-and-butter play in the first place and has simply gotten better! How can you not be happy with this?
Battle hellions lack mobility, sometimes it's still better to kite with it in default mode Mine are good, but mainly an early-Midgame unit. Reaper is good in tvt... Slightly better in the other matchups Yup the new medivacs are pretty good
Games are probably gonna look the same (and are, I play as random on the beta quite a bit)
On January 03 2013 00:32 Godwrath wrote: Big J, i have the beta, i had watched streams, etc etc... i am not talking about balance. Many people will talk about how they play to improve and whatever, many other people (the most actually), just play casually. Did you forget the old times ? What was the first thing you did when you got a new RTS ? Or an expansion for a RTS ? You open the tech choices to get to play with your new toys, over and over. Why do you think many people will go to play after an important patch ? To re-discover these toys.
Do you really find building mines as something cool ? Maybe you find it tiny problem, i find it big. I don't give a crap about balance except if it making the game not entertaining to watch. But i do give a crap about what new toys i get when i buy something.
I think this is why many Terrans are not keen on buying HotS. There has to be some selling point to playing Terran and it sure isn't removing the strike cannon or re-working the Thor. I also don't think the mines are much fun either. Balance aside, Blizzard has other problems.
If I buy HotS, I'll play Protoss/Zerg as my main race, haven't decided yet. Right now I'm flipping a coin for Protoss/Zerg in all games (1v1, 2v2, 3v3) because Terran is basically the same from WoL, with a different strategies. I understand Terran is the most complete race and whatnot, but it's gotten to be so boring compared to the stuff the other two races can do. I'm still messing around with the medivac though, hopefully that can change some stuff. And yes, BigJ loves to bash Terrans.
On December 30 2012 10:26 mango_destroyer wrote: Terran has more variety than the other races already. So I can`t really complain about them not getting as much in HOTS.
This is true, even if it doesn't necessarily feel this way all the time... due to dead units like the Reaper, Raven, BC, and other matchup-specific duds.
If the resurrection proves successful, Terran will have at least as much variety as the other races in HotS.
EPT![[image loading]](http://evilgeniuses.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/hots-idrademu-medium.jpg)
