On December 28 2012 17:25 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Huh, that's not being more progressive, that's being more superficial, which is saying something since the west is already pretty superficial themselves.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
Korea is much further from removing beauty standards though, that's a much more realistic (although still highly improbable) idea in the US. Korea might be more progressive in terms of acceptance of plastic surgery, but it is way behind overall in terms of acceptance of anything other than the golden beauty standards.
Every country has ideals of beauty, but in the west we've moved on from whiter is better. Also on the subway here in London there are way more people, than in Seoul, who clearly don't care about how they look very much. That alone shows how much more pressure there is in korea.
I guess I agree with this, and I hope it changes. Perhaps there wasn't a real disagreement after all, although I feel most people have more of an 'ick' reaction to plastic surgery than caring about beauty standards and pressure.
I don't care if someone gets plastic surgery. I disagreed with your notion that they were more progressive as a society for accepting plastic surgery because that isn't really something to put on a moral pedestal.
On December 28 2012 18:14 Jibba wrote: I'm really not. I don't think better or worse of anyone for doing it, even the really bizarre ones. It just makes me sad when people don't like the way they look, especially if it's from an external, mean source.
That's fair, although I think very few people actually do like the way they look. The fact that in Korea (and Japan and China) plastic surgery is such a readily available option means that people that are dissatisfied can change that.
I agree that the optimal state of affairs would be that people are happy with their appearance from the start, but that is so far-fetched it's hardly worth entertaining. It's like complaining about greed, or jealousy. People are going to be dissatisfied with their looks, as they are in most areas of their lives. It's what keeps us moving.
To be fair, I'm coming from a position of having inherited a very annoying skin condition. I am not happy with my body although I am happy with myself as a person. It doesn't bother me that much but I would have no qualms with performing surgery to change it and other features that I find sub-optimal, if the price was right (it isn't). I don't see how anyone can disagree with that .
Well, at least in Western studies they've found plastic surgery is often related to underlying self worth issues, and the end result is that while patients are satisfied with the surgery, it doesn't end up improving their quality of life, confidence or outlook. There's definitely exceptions to that (and I believe it's more likely to do these things as we get older, because expectations are muted) but the problem usually isn't as simple as "I don't like my appearance."
And I do have psoriasis in remission and I wouldn't risk inflaming it for better appearance. I have other imperfections that I wouldn't touch, even with the money to do so, because they're just me.
On December 28 2012 18:26 zefreak wrote: It doesn't bother me that much but I would have no qualms with performing surgery to change it and other features that I find sub-optimal, if the price was right (it isn't). I don't see how anyone can disagree with that .
I think this is a very important point. A lot of people see the choice to have cosmetic surgery performed as a shallow choice that indicates weak character in some way. But the fact of the matter is, if a fairy popped up and offered to make you beautiful without cost or consequence, I have a hard time imagining someone declining. The question is thus one of what costs and consequences are acceptable to a person, which puts cosmetic surgery on a spectrum. Given how much it currently costs, the risks associated, and the fact that as a white male in a western country, I am privileged beyond all reason even if I'm not particularly attractive*, the equation is so far from making sense for me that I've never given cosmetic surgery any thought. I don't think it's reasonable to look down on anyone else's decision to get it done, though, since there are so many factors at play in the decision to change one's own physical appearance that no one else could ever possibly judge whether it's a reasonable choice.
It's hard to make an accurate comparison between two unflattering GSL pictures and two orchestrated self-shots, but the eyes are definitely much better-looking now.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
Korea is much further from removing beauty standards though, that's a much more realistic (although still highly improbable) idea in the US. Korea might be more progressive in terms of acceptance of plastic surgery, but it is way behind overall in terms of acceptance of anything other than the golden beauty standards.
Every country has ideals of beauty, but in the west we've moved on from whiter is better. Also on the subway here in London there are way more people, than in Seoul, who clearly don't care about how they look very much. That alone shows how much more pressure there is in korea.
I guess I agree with this, and I hope it changes. Perhaps there wasn't a real disagreement after all, although I feel most people have more of an 'ick' reaction to plastic surgery than caring about beauty standards and pressure.
I don't care if someone gets plastic surgery. I disagreed with your notion that they were more progressive as a society for accepting plastic surgery because that isn't really something to put on a moral pedestal.
A society can be progressive in one area and not in others. I still feel their acceptance of plastic surgery is progressive. They may be more behind in other areas, probably because they are a homogeneous society with an extremely quick economic development and their political and social customs haven't quite caught up.
Progressive isn't directly related to morality, btw.
On December 28 2012 17:45 Jibba wrote: [quote] I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
Korea is much further from removing beauty standards though, that's a much more realistic (although still highly improbable) idea in the US. Korea might be more progressive in terms of acceptance of plastic surgery, but it is way behind overall in terms of acceptance of anything other than the golden beauty standards.
Every country has ideals of beauty, but in the west we've moved on from whiter is better. Also on the subway here in London there are way more people, than in Seoul, who clearly don't care about how they look very much. That alone shows how much more pressure there is in korea.
I guess I agree with this, and I hope it changes. Perhaps there wasn't a real disagreement after all, although I feel most people have more of an 'ick' reaction to plastic surgery than caring about beauty standards and pressure.
I don't care if someone gets plastic surgery. I disagreed with your notion that they were more progressive as a society for accepting plastic surgery because that isn't really something to put on a moral pedestal.
A society can be progressive in one area and not in others. I still feel their acceptance of plastic surgery is progressive.
We don't agree on the definition of progressive then.
I have other imperfections that I wouldn't touch, even with the money to do so, because they're just me.
This is a bit of my point though. Does this not imply that your body image is more closely tied to your self-identity? If you had a dirty shirt and could magically replace it with a clean shirt, few would have a problem. However when it comes to physical imperfections, many people feel more attached to these, as if changing them would change 'a part of themselves'.
I don't want to pretend that I never have those reactions as well, blame my upbringing or biology, but I think that in a perfect world such a connection wouldn't exist. The ultimate result of not caring about appearance (what people consider "shallow") is not including your physical appearance in your self-image at all.
People consider it shallow when the basis of doing ______ is other people's perceptions, rather than your own convictions. Everyone probably is to different extents.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
Korea is much further from removing beauty standards though, that's a much more realistic (although still highly improbable) idea in the US. Korea might be more progressive in terms of acceptance of plastic surgery, but it is way behind overall in terms of acceptance of anything other than the golden beauty standards.
Every country has ideals of beauty, but in the west we've moved on from whiter is better. Also on the subway here in London there are way more people, than in Seoul, who clearly don't care about how they look very much. That alone shows how much more pressure there is in korea.
I guess I agree with this, and I hope it changes. Perhaps there wasn't a real disagreement after all, although I feel most people have more of an 'ick' reaction to plastic surgery than caring about beauty standards and pressure.
I don't care if someone gets plastic surgery. I disagreed with your notion that they were more progressive as a society for accepting plastic surgery because that isn't really something to put on a moral pedestal.
A society can be progressive in one area and not in others. I still feel their acceptance of plastic surgery is progressive.
We don't agree on the definition of progressive then.
Online poker is legal in China. Do you have a problem with saying that their online gambling legislation is more progressive than that of the United States, even if other aspects of their legal code are stuck in the stone age?
On December 28 2012 17:57 Jibba wrote: [quote] I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
Korea is much further from removing beauty standards though, that's a much more realistic (although still highly improbable) idea in the US. Korea might be more progressive in terms of acceptance of plastic surgery, but it is way behind overall in terms of acceptance of anything other than the golden beauty standards.
Every country has ideals of beauty, but in the west we've moved on from whiter is better. Also on the subway here in London there are way more people, than in Seoul, who clearly don't care about how they look very much. That alone shows how much more pressure there is in korea.
I guess I agree with this, and I hope it changes. Perhaps there wasn't a real disagreement after all, although I feel most people have more of an 'ick' reaction to plastic surgery than caring about beauty standards and pressure.
I don't care if someone gets plastic surgery. I disagreed with your notion that they were more progressive as a society for accepting plastic surgery because that isn't really something to put on a moral pedestal.
A society can be progressive in one area and not in others. I still feel their acceptance of plastic surgery is progressive.
We don't agree on the definition of progressive then.
Online poker is legal in China. Do you have a problem with saying that their online gambling legislation is more progressive than that of the United States, even if other aspects of their legal code are stuck in the stone age?
lol legal as long as it's within the country, we can't play with any chinese online
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
Korea is much further from removing beauty standards though, that's a much more realistic (although still highly improbable) idea in the US. Korea might be more progressive in terms of acceptance of plastic surgery, but it is way behind overall in terms of acceptance of anything other than the golden beauty standards.
Every country has ideals of beauty, but in the west we've moved on from whiter is better. Also on the subway here in London there are way more people, than in Seoul, who clearly don't care about how they look very much. That alone shows how much more pressure there is in korea.
I guess I agree with this, and I hope it changes. Perhaps there wasn't a real disagreement after all, although I feel most people have more of an 'ick' reaction to plastic surgery than caring about beauty standards and pressure.
I don't care if someone gets plastic surgery. I disagreed with your notion that they were more progressive as a society for accepting plastic surgery because that isn't really something to put on a moral pedestal.
A society can be progressive in one area and not in others. I still feel their acceptance of plastic surgery is progressive.
We don't agree on the definition of progressive then.
Online poker is legal in China. Do you have a problem with saying that their online gambling legislation is more progressive than that of the United States, even if other aspects of their legal code are stuck in the stone age?
lol legal as long as it's within the country, we can't play with any chinese online
EPT
