On December 28 2012 17:22 zefreak wrote: I feel like Asian societies are actually far more progressive regarding body image and identity than most Western societies,
Huh, that's not being more progressive, that's being more superficial, which is saying something since the west is already pretty superficial themselves.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
On December 28 2012 17:49 zefreak wrote: Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I think that's extremely, extremely far from the truth.
Are you white?
I don't mean to be confrontational or controversial, but its very well documented that White males get preferential treatment in business and dating. Asian males and African females get some of the worst treatment.
Awww. Always felt Supernova had kind of a cute look to him, I always tied it to oGs. I'll admit he is more attractive as far as average looks go though,.
so sad.. i hope this trend of pressure that everyone should look exactly the same doesnt spread, but that these asian countries get their shit together.
supernova used to be so cute, now he looks just like everyone else
i know its hard to be different when youre young, but when you get older youll find it helped build character and that it is important to accept who you are
these kind of things doesnt change just because you fix your eyes.. next you start to notice your teeth arent perfect, or maybe your ears. that little tummy?
the best thing supernova could have done for his money is meet a good therapist that coult have helped him love his own look and be comfortable with being who he is
On December 28 2012 17:49 zefreak wrote: Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I think that's extremely, extremely far from the truth.
Are you white?
I don't mean to be confrontational or controversial, but its very well documented that White males get preferential treatment in business and dating. Asian males and African females get some of the worst treatment.
Err.....
How does treatment based on race have anything to do with plastic surgery? Unless some non-white person decides to pull a Michael Jackson...
On December 28 2012 17:49 zefreak wrote: Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I think that's extremely, extremely far from the truth.
Are you white?
I don't mean to be confrontational or controversial, but its very well documented that White males get preferential treatment in business and dating. Asian males and African females get some of the worst treatment.
I'm half Asian and half White. Race does still matter in the US, but I think it's disingenuous to lump Asian males in with African-American females (Asian-Americans are the highest earning racial demographic in the US, btw.) Furthermore, this doesn't necessarily translate into attractiveness. Look at the Forbes' top 30 under 30 that just came out. There's a lot of brilliant people with very bright futures, but they certainly didn't make it on the list for looks.
On December 28 2012 17:22 zefreak wrote: I feel like Asian societies are actually far more progressive regarding body image and identity than most Western societies,
Huh, that's not being more progressive, that's being more superficial, which is saying something since the west is already pretty superficial themselves.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
On December 28 2012 17:59 Soma.bokforlag wrote: so sad.. i hope this trend of pressure that everyone should look exactly the same doesnt spread, but that these asian countries get their shit together.
supernova used to be so cute, now he looks just like everyone else
i know its hard to be different when youre young, but when you get older youll find it helped build character and that it is important to accept who you are
these kind of things doesnt change just because you fix your eyes.. next you start to notice your teeth arent perfect, or maybe your ears. that little tummy?
the best thing supernova could have done for his money is meet a good therapist that coult have helped him love his own look and be comfortable with being who he is
Your looks have nothing to do with who you are. This is what I'm talking about.
On December 28 2012 17:22 zefreak wrote: I feel like Asian societies are actually far more progressive regarding body image and identity than most Western societies,
Huh, that's not being more progressive, that's being more superficial, which is saying something since the west is already pretty superficial themselves.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
It's not simply that they're ok with plastic surgery (which they're not entirely, btw.) It's also that they're very judgmental if you don't look a certain way, thus people get the plastic surgery to look that way.
This is the kind of thing Gangnam Style was actually about, and why PSY getting big was interesting. The whole thing was a social commentary.
On December 28 2012 17:22 zefreak wrote: I feel like Asian societies are actually far more progressive regarding body image and identity than most Western societies,
Huh, that's not being more progressive, that's being more superficial, which is saying something since the west is already pretty superficial themselves.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
On December 28 2012 17:22 zefreak wrote: I feel like Asian societies are actually far more progressive regarding body image and identity than most Western societies,
Huh, that's not being more progressive, that's being more superficial, which is saying something since the west is already pretty superficial themselves.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
There's already plenty of Americans who do this so I don' know. It's a bad hypothetical.
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
I'm really not. I don't think better or worse of anyone for doing it, even the really bizarre ones. It just makes me sad when people don't like the way they look, especially if it's from an external, mean source.
On December 28 2012 17:22 zefreak wrote: I feel like Asian societies are actually far more progressive regarding body image and identity than most Western societies,
Huh, that's not being more progressive, that's being more superficial, which is saying something since the west is already pretty superficial themselves.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not.
Because you're missing the reason why they're accepting of plastic surgery. It's because the country is very superficial and cares about looks a lot. That is why they're accepting of plastic surgery because everyone wants to make themselves better looking due to the way people who aren't great looking are treated.
You're acting like it's some progressive thing like giving women the right to vote or something, instead of the superficial reason that everyone just wants to be better looking due to societal pressures, so that's why they accept it.
You realize that he isn't necessarily condemning plastic surgery? His point is that they feel pressured to get it and then when the do, people from western society criticize them and shame them for doing so.
"The society sucks too hard.
They don't show sympathy to people who aren't good looking. They had to get their face changed to have some progress yet they receive another society hate when they find out they had surgery.
I think Taiwan and korea are more or less the only society where surgeries are common and won't be looked down upon."
On December 28 2012 17:22 zefreak wrote: I feel like Asian societies are actually far more progressive regarding body image and identity than most Western societies,
Huh, that's not being more progressive, that's being more superficial, which is saying something since the west is already pretty superficial themselves.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
Korea is much further from removing beauty standards though, that's a much more realistic (although still highly improbable) idea in the US. Korea might be more progressive in terms of acceptance of plastic surgery, but it is way behind overall in terms of acceptance of anything other than the golden beauty standards.
Every country has ideals of beauty, but in the west we've moved on from whiter is better. Also on the subway here in London there are way more people, than in Seoul, who clearly don't care about how they look very much. That alone shows how much more pressure there is in korea.
On December 28 2012 18:14 Jibba wrote: I'm really not. I don't think better or worse of anyone for doing it, even the really bizarre ones. It just makes me sad when people don't like the way they look, especially if it's from an external, mean source.
That's fair, although I think very few people actually do like the way they look. The fact that in Korea (and Japan and China) plastic surgery is such a readily available option means that people that are dissatisfied can change that.
I agree that the optimal state of affairs would be that people are happy with their appearance from the start, but that is so far-fetched it's hardly worth entertaining. It's like complaining about greed, or jealousy. People are going to be dissatisfied with their looks, as they are in most areas of their lives. It's what keeps us moving.
To be fair, I'm coming from a position of having inherited a very annoying skin condition. I am not happy with my body although I am happy with myself as a person. It doesn't bother me that much but I would have no qualms with performing surgery to change it and other features that I find sub-optimal, if the price was right (it isn't). I don't see how anyone can disagree with that .
On December 28 2012 17:22 zefreak wrote: I feel like Asian societies are actually far more progressive regarding body image and identity than most Western societies,
Huh, that's not being more progressive, that's being more superficial, which is saying something since the west is already pretty superficial themselves.
I feel like it's more progressive because it tears away yet another arbitrary taboo. If people want to look a certain way, and almost everyone wants to look a certain way whether they admit it not, they should be able to without shame or dishonesty. Wanting to look a certain way is not superficial, ONLY CARING ABOUT LOOKS would be superficial.
I feel like you're missing the pressures that often cause people to want to change how they look, ESPECIALLY in some Asian societies. Shame is on the other end of the equation.
The pressures are there, but the problem isn't cosmetic surgery. In fact, it's the solution. You think there aren't equivalent pressures in other parts of the world? Fact is, ugly people are just ignored here in the US. If you aren't born with the right combination of genes, good luck being successful in business and romance, because your options are much more limited than if you are tall, white and handsome.
I feel like people rightly grasp the problem of social pressures regarding looks and then wrongly see plastic surgery as the problem. If 'social pressure' is one side of the equation, it is the same in every country in the world. If plastic surgery was as cheap everywhere as it is in korea, if the surgeons were as experienced and if there weren't taboos against changing your genetically determined appearance then it would be just as popular everywhere. Not because social pressures would necessarily increase but because the deterrent factors would be decreased.
I'm not saying plastic surgery should be a taboo or looked down upon, I'm saying your interpretation of it being a more progressive system is off.
Please explain why a society that is accepting of plastic surgery isn't more progressive than one that is not. I feel like I could possibly convince you if I knew exactly what your arguments were.
Granted, I'm an atheist transhumanist who thinks I should be able to have bunny ears and giant Angelina Jolie lips if I so desire.
Because if you got bunny ears and Angelina Jolie lips, they would mock you mercilessly for looking so weird, and you would be treated much, much worse. Like I said, the shame is on the other end of the equation. They're getting it to fit in to the norm, not to make themselves unique.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that Korea is more progressive because they don't have beauty standards or pressure to conform to them (every country does, and while korea has head-to-body ratio and S curves, the west has the golden hip-waist-chest ratio and other standards). I'm saying that their acceptance of drastic physical feature modification is progressive. If you could magically remove beauty standards and social pressure from both the US and Korea, which country do you think would have people running around with bunny ears and which wouldn't because it's not 'natural'?
In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. These discussions always devolve into people bashing plastic surgery when the real criticism should be aimed at the tendency for societies to pressure people to look a certain way, whether it is korea or the US.
Korea is much further from removing beauty standards though, that's a much more realistic (although still highly improbable) idea in the US. Korea might be more progressive in terms of acceptance of plastic surgery, but it is way behind overall in terms of acceptance of anything other than the golden beauty standards.
Every country has ideals of beauty, but in the west we've moved on from whiter is better. Also on the subway here in London there are way more people, than in Seoul, who clearly don't care about how they look very much. That alone shows how much more pressure there is in korea.
I guess I agree with this, and I hope it changes. Perhaps there wasn't a real disagreement after all, although I feel most people have more of an 'ick' reaction to plastic surgery than caring about beauty standards and pressure.
EPT
