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stop trying to recreate BW really..
Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way.
Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general.
BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
User was warned for this post
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Netherlands1300 Posts
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the game somehow runs very laggy always, ladder game seems to be fine but the game itself has some random freezing for me 
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On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote:
stop trying to recreate BW really..
Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way.
Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general.
BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
Please take your negativity elsewhere.
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On December 29 2012 01:59 mcmartini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote:
stop trying to recreate BW really..
Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way.
Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general.
BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea.. Please take your negativity elsewhere.
I play sc2bw with friends with the sc2 mechanics (multiple building select ect.) mostly cause we suck, but its still more ufun than laddering.
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we need an iccup of sc2bw, we need to have a way to show rank that player care. But I dont know how to do it. ;(
Someone know ?
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On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote:
stop trying to recreate BW really..
Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way.
Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general.
BW is spectator friendly because the controls are absolutely archaic: unit selection cap, dodgy pathing and no smart casting balance the game in an interesting way because they all work against deathball play. You don't want to mass too many casters in BW because you can't use them effectively anyway, you don't want massive groups of mutalisk because it's impossible to micro etc... However those controls are just a pain in the ass to play with and the game is determined by mechanics far too much.
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
Stop post in the sc2bw mod topic to ask people to stop to recreate bw.
Let people have fun in what game/mod of sc2 they want...
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On December 29 2012 00:56 Lightswarm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 22:12 rezzan wrote:
oh, yeah its pretty darn cool,but since i am a Bw player rather than a sc2 player id just say.. why make a mod when u can play the real deal on iccup ? that obviously has the 100% full nostalgic feeling.
but hey,thats just me. if you look at the state of iccup, its less than a shadow of its past. theres no excitement on bw from the foreign community anymore, and this mod rly reinvigorated a lot of people to try it out
I cannot argue that ICCup is but a shadow of it's former self. However, you can still find plenty of games at D/C ranks. Fish is very active if your better than that
I would big to differ on the bolded text though. While the community isn't huge there is still quite a bit of excitement for BW for both KRN and foriegn tours. Just takes a look at one if the SOSPA threads.
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This is convenient because Brood War doesn't work on my Windows 7. Thanks for the hard work Maverck
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On December 29 2012 02:11 MattBarry wrote:
This is convenient because Brood War doesn't work on my Windows 7. Thanks for the hard work Maverck
I have win 7 and bw works fine. I think I registered my keys with blizzard and downloaded the version from their website 
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Definitely can't wait for this to be done! So excited to try!
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Awesome Mod! Really hope we will see more great Mods in the future!
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On December 28 2012 22:10 Wayem wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 22:07 EmailFDP wrote:On December 28 2012 21:52 Wayem wrote:Hello, I have mixed feelings about this. BW was probably the best game I ever played and I have so much good memories with it. It introduced me to real RTS games and more importantly, to esports in general. Therefore, such a mod brings me a bit of joy on the day I learn that there may be no more OSL, should HOTS fail. I will sure try it ! So thanks for that. But... maybe it's time to let it go. As I often say, the past lightens the future (dunno if it sounds correct in English). Of course we shouldn't pretend that BW never existed and consider SC2 as a new game "from scratch". On the contrary, BW can help us know what works and what doesn't in a RTS. What is exciting and what isn't. However, I don't think that recreating and promoting BW in SC2 is the best thing we could do as a community. Sure, BW was a superior game, but we can't continue to live in the past. My - entirely personnal - feeling is that we should work to improve SC2 as much as we can, including alternative mods. LaLuSh, you bring up some extremely interesting points in your OP. I knew something was fishy in the way SC2 econ worked, but I didn't quite figured out that much specifics. Bringing back "real" moving shots is also brilliant, new anti-deathball pathfinding, etc. Therefore, why don't you try to apply those changes to SC2 itself ? Why the need to bring back BW in its entirety ? Why couldn't we try to beta test where those "small" changes bring us and decide then if SC2 has its chance ? What exactly is your long term plan with this ? So much work was given, I guess your goal is a bit more than to please BW fans with enhanced graphics ? Where do you hope this will lead you ? How do you think Blizzard would react if such a mod would encounter a big success ? In the meantime... reaver, here I come back ! Doesn´t make sense. The purpose of the game(including the mods) is to have fun. If some people have more fun playing sc2bw mod then the original game why we have to let it go? That´s what sc2editor is for. Seems you are thinking that sc2bw will compete with the original game and thats not necessarily true. I full agree with you. If the point is to have fun, well let it be ! I will gladly do that. I was just wondering if the authors had something else in mind. I mean, thinking about an alternative ladder, etc. is pretty serious stuff, don't you think ?
I have the same question too. What's the next step we're gonna go from here? If the mod is successful, what's the next step? Are we gonna make more maps? based on what. Are we gonna do balance by ourselves? based on what data. Are we gonna run tournaments and Koreans are gonna play in it?
Although this mod is cool and all, I don't think it can get far. If we keep playing the same maps and the same balances people will eventually get tired of it. In BW you still have Kespa who basically takes care of everything to keep BW afloat. Is Maverck gonna be IceFrog of SC2 who basically do all the balance and stuff?
On December 29 2012 01:35 Random_Guy09 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 13:31 ElvisWayCool wrote:On December 27 2012 13:28 Zenbrez wrote:On December 27 2012 13:24 FLuE wrote:if sc2 was called space wars maybe about 20% of the player base would have even bought it. the only reason people bought it in the first place was because of sc1's legacy (they either played bw and wanted to see it's successor, or didn't play bw and heard about it online or through a friend who did play bw) Obviously. Wasn't really the point I was making. More that they are trying so hard with those 2 games to differentiate from the previous when it isn't really needed. People wouldn't have bought it if it was effectively the same game. Dota --> Dota2 Basically the same game, people are still getting hyped for it. I honestly think they should have just remade SC:BW with better graphics. This thread makes me actually want to get on SC2 and play it again, in the BW mod of course. Well Dota > Dota 2 is still a weird thing where alot of the massive players in China didnt have access and dont have computers that can support Dota 2 so they're still playing Dota 1
Unlike BW, DotA was super popular when people DotA2 was made, so it's easy to understand that porting completely dota1 to a new engine is a good thing (especially after a bunch of spinoff games like LoL, HoN were made already). BW was basically dead, it's very risky to remake SCBW to a new engine.
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On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote:
stop trying to recreate BW really..
Sure BW was a better game than sc2 and many of that comes down to flaws in the game working out in a lucky way.
Still BW also has TONS of terrible aspects that 1) make it terrible for today's players and 2) can just be improved upon on general.
Starcraft 2 is also terrible for today's players. You make it sound like some sort of newbie-friendly, accessible, slick mainstream game, but even among modern RTS games it's archaic, controls and interface are still a pain in the ass (you can't even zoom in/out and you have to manually build workers to have a resource income, so annoying, right?). Latest Dawn of War and Supreme Commander titles feel so much more accessible and modern.
Mechanical difficulty is the MAIN reason Starcraft multiplayer was as viable and fun (and the same is true of Starcraft 2, though to a lesser extent). Even back then, Age of Empires 2 looked better, had better easier controls and interface, had bigger tech trees and more units and factions and maps with more terrain features and resources and everything. Later you also had even more feature-rich games like Age of Mythology and Rise of Nations that were by general standards all better than Starcraft (hell, some are even better than SC2 in that sense).
The thing is, anyone can make a "strategy game" and design interesting units and tech trees and whatnot. It's the physical control requirements Starcraft puts on the player that made it exciting to play and watch. With Starcraft 2, Blizzard reduced the importance of one singular thing that made the original Starcraft better than any other RTS game long after its release - the physical difficulty of managing your assets and executing strategies.
With Starcraft 2, Blizzard could have made a completely new, different game that didn't look similar at all while sticking to the spirit of Brood War gameplay, and it would be amazing. What they did was make something that looks almost like a clone of Brood War, even going so far to use the exact same races and most units, but the way it plays and feels is just wrong.
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On December 29 2012 01:47 Markwerf wrote:
Overall sc2 is imo just a better game in many aspects. More strategy diversity, less buggyness, more intuitive controls and even more differences between the races. Even less 'dead' units too. There are just a couple big flaws in sc2 which hamper the game immensely making it worse than BW. Macro limited to too few bases perhaps, deathball play too present and the game being too passive on a whole. These can be fixed in other ways though by simple retooling the existing units and making good additions. Unfortunately that's not happening in HotS but the idea of sc2 is sound, the execution is just poor. It could be improved to be vastly better than BW though because to be honest, BW was only big in korea..
Apologies for rising to trollbait.
More strategy[sic] diversity? How many openings does zerg have in SC2? Or Protoss? The only vaguely comparable race is Terran and even then they have far fewer than BW.
More differences betwen races? The core army in every race in SC2 is a massing, high range, same movespeed blob of non differentiated shit. (Other than zerg which is dominated by the oh so interesting broodlord/infestor comp).
Less 'dead' units? Irrelevant. You can have no dead units if every race only has one unit. Hardly makes for a good game.
BW was only big in korea. Irrelevant. Nobody said BW was good because it was big. Big doesn't mean good. Halo is 'big' but it is far inferior to Quake or CS.
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Very cool mod keep going, im playing it
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Done uploading EU, only FS. Hope everything works because im not gonna be here for a few days
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The pathfinding video. Looks like a an RTS game. The units seem like they are autonomous... shocking to me Blizzard doesnt see this fault of their game. Moving up a ramp from an angle has a drawback.
Bring back tactical depth!!!!!!!!!!!
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On December 28 2012 21:52 Wayem wrote:Hello, I have mixed feelings about this. BW was probably the best game I ever played and I have so much good memories with it. It introduced me to real RTS games and more importantly, to esports in general. Therefore, such a mod brings me a bit of joy on the day I learn that there may be no more OSL, should HOTS fail. I will sure try it ! So thanks for that. But... maybe it's time to let it go. As I often say, the past lightens the future (dunno if it sounds correct in English). Of course we shouldn't pretend that BW never existed and consider SC2 as a new game "from scratch". On the contrary, BW can help us know what works and what doesn't in a RTS. What is exciting and what isn't. However, I don't think that recreating and promoting BW in SC2 is the best thing we could do as a community. Sure, BW was a superior game, but we can't continue to live in the past. My - entirely personnal - feeling is that we should work to improve SC2 as much as we can, including alternative mods. LaLuSh, you bring up some extremely interesting points in your OP. I knew something was fishy in the way SC2 econ worked, but I didn't quite figured out that much specifics. Bringing back "real" moving shots is also brilliant, new anti-deathball pathfinding, etc. Therefore, why don't you try to apply those changes to SC2 itself ? Why the need to bring back BW in its entirety ? Why couldn't we try to beta test where those "small" changes bring us and decide then if SC2 has its chance ? What exactly is your long term plan with this ? So much work was given, I guess your goal is a bit more than to please BW fans with enhanced graphics ? Where do you hope this will lead you ? How do you think Blizzard would react if such a mod would encounter a big success ? In the meantime... reaver, here I come back !
Others are working on that. SC2BW, Starbow and OneGoal are all going about improving SC2 in a big way differently. See the second post of the thread for (many) details.
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On December 29 2012 02:25 canikizu wrote:
I have the same question too. What's the next step we're gonna go from here? If the mod is successful, what's the next step? Are we gonna make more maps? based on what. Are we gonna do balance by ourselves? based on what data. Are we gonna run tournaments and Koreans are gonna play in it?
Although this mod is cool and all, I don't think it can get far. If we keep playing the same maps and the same balances people will eventually get tired of it. In BW you still have Kespa who basically takes care of everything to keep BW afloat. Is Maverck gonna be IceFrog of SC2 who basically do all the balance and stuff?
You didn´t get the point no? Balance what? His goal is to emulate bw in the sc2 (with same STATS), not balance the game. BW was balanced around maps and nobody really complain about it.
Nobody will ask to Maverck "nerf lurker! they are so strong against my marines".
He has just to refine the mod to get as close to bw as it can and try make more maps.
Enjoy and have fun...
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