EPTLings of Liberty: The Rise of the Patchzergs - Page 83
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 18 2012 21:23 IMPrime wrote: this is literally the greatest troll topic in the history of starcraft 2 I wouldn't call this "great" or "greatest". Kind of sad to see a bunch of low level players cry about balance, when really they should just try and get better. For the spectator point of view, I do agree that watching BL is boring and doesn't feel zergy. The fact that Broodlords become part of the main composition you want to get lategame is wrong by itself. It should be a tactical unit, not something you make over and over again and max out on. | ||
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mostevil
United Kingdom611 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:04 vthree wrote: I have Dustin has been watching the Blizzard Cup. The queen patch pretty much made zerg unkillable from early game all ins unless they mess up. However, zergs now have the best early game all ins now. If you scout it too late, you are screwed. Unkillable without screwing up is how it should be. It's too hard to get any early game damage off at all though, Zerg needs very few non queen units to defend and the bigger issue is queen range denys scouting the zerg, making those all ins from Z too strong (they can all be stopped if scouted). It's the exact same issue zerg was struggling with that lead to the overlord buff. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26771 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:17 mostevil wrote: Unkillable without screwing up is how it should be. It's too hard to get any early game damage off at all though, Zerg needs very few non queen units to defend and the bigger issue is queen range denys scouting the zerg, making those all ins from Z too strong (they can all be stopped if scouted). It's the exact same issue zerg was struggling with that lead to the overlord buff. Hardly. Zerg aren't safe to allins now if they 'don't screw up' they've been enabled to be blindlysafe to all sorts of pressures. Good Zergs were able to hold T allins before with good scouting or good star sense. Nestea held something like a 4 rax marine/scv allin from Sparta on antiga that he pretty much only spotted when it arrived at his base, with very few units. It was somewhat botched micro wise by Sparta, Bit-by-bits are huge gambles, if there's not even the potential to kill an unprepared opponent, wtf. That said I'll go and properly rewatch that game. I may be wrong and Nestea just made great decisions, but it's hardly the only example out there | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:52 Wombat_NI wrote: Hardly. Zerg aren't safe to allins now if they 'don't screw up, they've been enabled to be blindly safe to all sorts of pressures. Good Zergs were able to hold T allins before with good scouting or good star sense. Nestea held something like a 4 rax marine/scv allin from Sparta on antiga that he pretty much only spotted when it arrived at his base, with very few units. It was somewhat botched micro wise by Sparta, Bit-by-bits are huge gambles, if there's not even the potential to kill an unprepared opponent, wtf. That said I'll go and properly rewatch that game. I may be wrong and Nestea just made great decisions, but it's hardly the only example out there What about 2rax proxy, Blue flame rush (1 tech lab 1 reactor, very effective), marauder hellion is still really good, though I agree it has been figured out by zergs. Also, 2 port banshee (the Gumiho variation on 2 bases) is really strong if the Zerg goes infestors. Against muta rush it's another story, but still Terran still has a lot of options with unorthodox builds, they just seem to rely more and more on 3 orbital builds, which are definitely good, but if you're gonna play super greedy, why on earth would you complain about zerg's late game when you intentionally let them get there. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26771 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:57 crbox wrote: What about 2rax proxy, Blue flame rush (1 tech lab 1 reactor, very effective), marauder hellion is still really good, though I agree it has been figured out by zergs. Also, 2 port banshee (the Gumiho variation on 2 bases) is really strong if the Zerg goes infestors. Against muta rush it's another story, but still Terran still has a lot of options with unorthodox builds, they just seem to rely more and more on 3 orbital builds, which are definitely good, but if you're gonna play super greedy, why on earth would you complain about zerg's late game when you intentionally let them get there. All correct and viable builds. My issue with the current state of Zerg is that their early game is far too robust. Greedy play should involve corner cuts and make you vulnerable, in the same way Terran 3CC builds are, or fast 3 Nexus builds can be. Those kinds of builds require a lot of calculated risk taking, good simcities etc etc. Zerg players are smart and dedicated enough at the game to do this, but there's not as much need to. In terms of TvZ's current state, people whine about fungal but it's not even the reason the match is pretty stagnant, at least IMO. Zerg's former early game fragility that was needed to counterbalance the race's ability to burst produce and supercharge their economy, just isn't really there anymore. Their lategame comps weren't an issue a year ago because they were bloody risky to get to. When Ret use to go to 90 drones and straight to hive even us non zergs would sit back thinking 'holy shit that was impressive' Not all of this is due to patches either, Zergs have worked out a lot of ways to refine their builds too, hence why I think the term patchzerg is silly and doesn't give credit where it's due | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:20 Wombat_NI wrote: All correct and viable builds. My issue with the current state of Zerg is that their early game is far too robust. Greedy play should involve corner cuts and make you vulnerable, in the same way Terran 3CC builds are, or fast 3 Nexus builds can be. In which way are the standard 3CC builds (with hellion and banshee) not safe in TvZ? They CAN lost to 2base roach/bling. Similar how 3base Z CAN lose to 2base rushes like hellion/marine. Even more, 2 base+lair Z does probably even have a harder time holding those rushes, as stupid as it sounds... (and those 3base CC builds are not the greediest variations, those are the most aggressive ones. You can as well go for things like CC first into 2rax into 3rd CC, which is also quite safe and quite more greedy). | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:13 crbox wrote: I wouldn't call this "great" or "greatest". Kind of sad to see a bunch of low level players cry about balance, when really they should just try and get better. Nobody is crying, and players are always trying to get better, though it's a less appealing when most of us can tell you first-hand that we can off-race as Zerg and reach up to two leagues higher within a relatively small time-frame. This is also not a "troll" thread. Ver deployed a wonderfully crafted sarcasm and satire to get the attention of Blizzard in an unconventional way in regards to very real balance issues (the graphs and data he collected support this notion). | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
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Mortal
2943 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:50 Bagration wrote: Really makes me nostalgic for SC2 from 2011, when the game was much, much better. We had champions like Nestea, MVP, MC, DRG, MMA who could stand out from the rest of them. More importantly, it just felt that the games were more interesting. Sure we had times of the 1-1-1, and GomTvT, but TvT was a much more interesting matchup than PvP or ZvZ. Oddly enough I agree. There have been few/no games recently that enstilled me with a sense of wonder the way the old games with those players did. Maybe I'm burnt out but I really do miss that excitement. Here's hoping for HotS (also, arguing in a troll thread, get fucking real). | ||
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:30 DemigodcelpH wrote: Nobody is crying, and players are always trying to get better, though it's a less appealing when most of us can tell you first-hand that we can off-race as Zerg and reach up to two leagues higher within a relatively small time-frame. This is also not a "troll" thread. Ver deployed a wonderfully crafted sarcasm and satire to get the attention of Blizzard in an unconventional way in regards to very real balance issues (the graphs and data he collected support this notion). LOL. Why aren't you switching to Zerg then? | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
5Z 1P and 1P is only there because there weren't 6 Zergs invited. | ||
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Quintall
20 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:14 Quintall wrote: Blizzard Cup is the best eivdence that Z is destroying SC2 right now... look at the viewer count, or the people posting in the thread, its like no body cares... ;(( Blizzard Cup had more people posting on the LR thread than Proleague (with balanced racial distribution). And that on a day when EG-TL was playing... | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26771 Posts
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
Add in BO1 and amateur casting, nobody is going to want to watch... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26771 Posts
Casting is fine for the most part, it's a cool format and is a very historically prestigious competition. There's a lot fewer ZvXs to sit through, and the arrival of EGTL is a (thus far) better attempt than Liquid's GSTL entry. Plus we're finally getting to see the lesser-known Kespa pros show what they've got. Plenty of good reasons to watch Proleague. | ||
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Kyselin
France35 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:04 vthree wrote: I have Dustin has been watching the Blizzard Cup. The queen patch pretty much made zerg unkillable from early game all ins unless they mess up. However, zergs now have the best early game all ins now. If you scout it too late, you are screwed. Seems to me that throughout the game at all stages, Zerg has a distinct advantage in both MUs. | ||
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