This thread has degraded into a support group for people who can't beat broodlord infestor. So they label anyone who wins with broodlord infestor a "patch zerg", that way they don't have to take responsibility for not being able to figure it out...Then they argue, "see! some Koreans have been losing to foreign zergs in a small sample of recent data, it must be imbalance!"
It's so much easier to just throw your hands up and blame it on those damn patchzergs..."they just make a couple infestors, throw in some broodlords, and 1A it across the map!"... Oh wait, there's more! It's actually a conspiracy to help foreign zergs win...Blizzard decided to throw away years of effort at creating an esport in order to help white people beat Koreas....Of course! Why didn't we see this before?
Nevermind that the metagame shifts and sometimes one race will have a dominant strategy for a period of time. Nevermind that Terrans often try to do the same old responses against broodlord infestors somehow expecting the results to be different. They never mention that often Zergs win because of the Ultralisk tech switch - and Terrans weren't prepared. Think about that, the Terran race who can get essentially free scouting in the late game gets caught of guard because they didn't know there was an ultra/brood or brood/ultra switch. But it's gotta be those patch zergs.
This article even goes as far as ignoring any mistakes the Terran player made in Code S matches, while characterizing the Zerg players as lazily falling asleep during the game before 1A'ing it to victory... Quit being whiny bitches, come up with something new instead of blaming the game. The other races have won major tournaments within a recent time span, somebody figured something out...Zerg isn't unbeatable. The sooner you get that into your heads, the sooner you can quit acting like victims because you don't like the way a computer game has been playing out recently.
is that such a huge number difference that we can therefore conclude "patchzergs"?
Lol... You know, the OP gives the complete list of foreigner wins from the last tournaments. Goswer: 2wins Lowely: 1win Vortix: 1win
Some foreign Protoss players that have been equally/more successful against Koreans in the same timeframe: Huk, Fraer, Sase, Socke, Gatored, Babyknight, Elfi, Titan
On December 15 2012 17:22 monkybone wrote: People got to realize that "patch zerg" is more a term than it is a label.
People do not perceive words the same as you do, and you are not a dictator of how language arises in culture, thus, whatever definition you are spouting is your's alone and not subject to anyone else. Don't tell us what words mean.
On December 16 2012 07:41 hillman wrote: The sooner you get that into your heads, the sooner you can quit acting like victims because you don't like the way a computer game has been playing out recently.
Pretty much. Victimization is a powerful concept when it comes to people feeling helpless about the situation they are in. Once they become "victims" the lack of control that they feel and becomes a valid point and slave-morality is felt that helps them compensate for their lack of control. Pro SC players, however, have shown time and time again that when it comes to BL/Infestor there are things that they can control for a better outcome. They are not victims. That's why they win and not stay within the cycle of a defeatist attitude.
On December 16 2012 07:41 hillman wrote: This thread has degraded into a support group for people who can't beat broodlord infestor. So they label anyone who wins with broodlord infestor a "patch zerg", that way they don't have to take responsibility for not being able to figure it out...Then they argue, "see! some Koreans have been losing to foreign zergs in a small sample of recent data, it must be imbalance!"
It's so much easier to just throw your hands up and blame it on those damn patchzergs..."they just make a couple infestors, throw in some broodlords, and 1A it across the map!"... Oh wait, there's more! It's actually a conspiracy to help foreign zergs win...Blizzard decided to throw away years of effort at creating an esport in order to help white people beat Koreas....Of course! Why didn't we see this before?
Nevermind that the metagame shifts and sometimes one race will have a dominant strategy for a period of time. Nevermind that Terrans often try to do the same old responses against broodlord infestors somehow expecting the results to be different. They never mention that often Zergs win because of the Ultralisk tech switch - and Terrans weren't prepared. Think about that, the Terran race who can get essentially free scouting in the late game gets caught of guard because they didn't know there was an ultra/brood or brood/ultra switch. But it's gotta be those patch zergs.
This article even goes as far as ignoring any mistakes the Terran player made in Code S matches, while characterizing the Zerg players as lazily falling asleep during the game before 1A'ing it to victory... Quit being whiny bitches, come up with something new instead of blaming the game. The other races have won major tournaments within a recent time span, somebody figured something out...Zerg isn't unbeatable. The sooner you get that into your heads, the sooner you can quit acting like victims because you don't like the way a computer game has been playing out recently.
Just stop. While people using "patch zerg" as a term is really idiotic, your position is on the other spectrum of stupidity. Your amateur psychology also applies in reverse. Your analysis is no less hyperbolic and shallow.
And seriously, defensive much? I guess any discussion on Zerg balance when Zergs are doing well is "whine" to you.
On December 16 2012 03:15 ShamW0W wrote: FWIW, Day9 summed it up pretty well in his daily earlier this week imo:
When did Day9 turn into a random forum poster who plays zerg? Surely of all people he would understand the genesis of the term patchzerg, and obviously it has nothing to do with the fact that they "got a patch and now they are better". It has to do with a whole lot more, as eloquently put by Ver in this OP.
haha, what? the majority of the western 'pro' scene are zergs the majority of the western playerbase are zergs
day9 making any other statement than the one in the video would be like thrusting an oriental sword into his gut.
he doesnt ''understand the genesis'' (whatever that means) simply because he chooses not to
Was about to write a serious rebuttal mostly centered around viewership being low probably has a direct correlation (in EU and NA) to number of people actually playing...
Then I got to the mid point of the article and saw the tinfoil... <.<
On December 15 2012 17:22 monkybone wrote: People got to realize that "patch zerg" is more a term than it is a label. The current use now is not really to point out who's "patch zergs" and who's not, but rather highlight that every Zerg player is performing better than they actually should, including previously unknowns who became known as the first "patch zergs". That doesn't mean that other Zergs remain unaffected by the notion. In one sense every Zerg is a patch zerg, because everyone got affected by the patch. In another sense, no Zerg is really a patch Zerg, because they are obivously still really skilled in order to achieve the results they do.
You know that what you said is even worse right? You don't just insult certain people but everyone who plays the freaking race. Next thing we gonne see is people calling Nestea/DRG/Leenock patchzergs when they win something.
It's only worse if you deny that there is imbalance in the matchup. It's pretty established by now that it is now very much the case.
"Is"? As far as I know blizzard released a patch and suddenly a ton of patchterrans are infesting Code S...
On December 15 2012 17:22 monkybone wrote: People got to realize that "patch zerg" is more a term than it is a label. The current use now is not really to point out who's "patch zergs" and who's not, but rather highlight that every Zerg player is performing better than they actually should, including previously unknowns who became known as the first "patch zergs". That doesn't mean that other Zergs remain unaffected by the notion. In one sense every Zerg is a patch zerg, because everyone got affected by the patch. In another sense, no Zerg is really a patch Zerg, because they are obivously still really skilled in order to achieve the results they do.
You know that what you said is even worse right? You don't just insult certain people but everyone who plays the freaking race. Next thing we gonne see is people calling Nestea/DRG/Leenock patchzergs when they win something.
It's only worse if you deny that there is imbalance in the matchup. It's pretty established by now that it is now very much the case.
"Is"? As far as I know blizzard released a patch and suddenly a ton of patchterrans are infesting Code S...
This post was made BEFORE the patch. It may not be so imbalanced now, but the only ones who can think the game was fine before that patch is seriously biased. Anyways still not watching any zerg matches in any tournament thanks to how zergs have to win: infestor-bl, the single most boring to watch composition in the whole game. I only watch Leenock due to his exciting and usually not infestor-bl playstyle.
On December 15 2012 17:22 monkybone wrote: People got to realize that "patch zerg" is more a term than it is a label. The current use now is not really to point out who's "patch zergs" and who's not, but rather highlight that every Zerg player is performing better than they actually should, including previously unknowns who became known as the first "patch zergs". That doesn't mean that other Zergs remain unaffected by the notion. In one sense every Zerg is a patch zerg, because everyone got affected by the patch. In another sense, no Zerg is really a patch Zerg, because they are obivously still really skilled in order to achieve the results they do.
You know that what you said is even worse right? You don't just insult certain people but everyone who plays the freaking race. Next thing we gonne see is people calling Nestea/DRG/Leenock patchzergs when they win something.
It's only worse if you deny that there is imbalance in the matchup. It's pretty established by now that it is now very much the case.
"Is"? As far as I know blizzard released a patch and suddenly a ton of patchterrans are infesting Code S...
Let's see what happens after a month. Anyway, the GSL has always been Terran heavy, not really any change here.
Yeah, let's see. And up to then, let's declare the current situation undetermined, shouldn't we?
On December 15 2012 17:22 monkybone wrote: People got to realize that "patch zerg" is more a term than it is a label. The current use now is not really to point out who's "patch zergs" and who's not, but rather highlight that every Zerg player is performing better than they actually should, including previously unknowns who became known as the first "patch zergs". That doesn't mean that other Zergs remain unaffected by the notion. In one sense every Zerg is a patch zerg, because everyone got affected by the patch. In another sense, no Zerg is really a patch Zerg, because they are obivously still really skilled in order to achieve the results they do.
You know that what you said is even worse right? You don't just insult certain people but everyone who plays the freaking race. Next thing we gonne see is people calling Nestea/DRG/Leenock patchzergs when they win something.
It's only worse if you deny that there is imbalance in the matchup. It's pretty established by now that it is now very much the case.
"Is"? As far as I know blizzard released a patch and suddenly a ton of patchterrans are infesting Code S...
This post was made BEFORE the patch. It may not be so imbalanced now, but the only ones who can think the game was fine before that patch is seriously biased. Anyways still not watching any zerg matches in any tournament thanks to how zergs have to win: infestor-bl, the single most boring to watch composition in the whole game. I only watch Leenock due to his exciting and usually not infestor-bl playstyle.
Well, monkeybone's post wasn't made before the patch. And Infestor/BL in PvZ is a direct result of Protoss deathballs (which is a direct result of being unable to deal with roaches, zerglings in a dynamic ways). TvZ, ZvZ are a ton of fun to watch... At least TvZ has always been. But whatever, people are so blind raging about BL/Inf, that they even complained about Life being boring for building BL/Infestor vs Mvp, when he did so after attacking everywhere in every game they played... (people really should step back and read the LR threads from 1.5 years ago, when the same people that whine about BL/Inf being boring whined about Muta/ling/bling being only a-move and muta harass being way to easy and blablablabla... all of that with ~60% winrate for T)
On December 04 2012 03:58 Ver wrote: Evidenced by how many times you hear the phrases “Money Fungal” or “Great Fungal,” English casters are apparently the only people in existence who appear to relish the casting of fungal growth.
I am happy to see that I am not the only one always pissed off by these kinf of comments : "nice fungals", "grea fungals", "huge fungals"...
About your graphs : I liked them, but why terran is green and protoss blue ? you should correct that (I think it has been already reported, but I didn't read all 90 pages of comments...)
On December 15 2012 17:22 monkybone wrote: People got to realize that "patch zerg" is more a term than it is a label. The current use now is not really to point out who's "patch zergs" and who's not, but rather highlight that every Zerg player is performing better than they actually should, including previously unknowns who became known as the first "patch zergs". That doesn't mean that other Zergs remain unaffected by the notion. In one sense every Zerg is a patch zerg, because everyone got affected by the patch. In another sense, no Zerg is really a patch Zerg, because they are obivously still really skilled in order to achieve the results they do.
You know that what you said is even worse right? You don't just insult certain people but everyone who plays the freaking race. Next thing we gonne see is people calling Nestea/DRG/Leenock patchzergs when they win something.
It's only worse if you deny that there is imbalance in the matchup. It's pretty established by now that it is now very much the case.
"Is"? As far as I know blizzard released a patch and suddenly a ton of patchterrans are infesting Code S...
Let's see what happens after a month. Anyway, the GSL has always been Terran heavy, not really any change here.
Yeah, let's see. And up to then, let's declare the current situation undetermined, shouldn't we?
On December 16 2012 23:01 xAdra wrote:
On December 16 2012 20:58 Big J wrote:
On December 16 2012 19:13 monkybone wrote:
On December 16 2012 03:02 Assirra wrote:
On December 15 2012 17:22 monkybone wrote: People got to realize that "patch zerg" is more a term than it is a label. The current use now is not really to point out who's "patch zergs" and who's not, but rather highlight that every Zerg player is performing better than they actually should, including previously unknowns who became known as the first "patch zergs". That doesn't mean that other Zergs remain unaffected by the notion. In one sense every Zerg is a patch zerg, because everyone got affected by the patch. In another sense, no Zerg is really a patch Zerg, because they are obivously still really skilled in order to achieve the results they do.
You know that what you said is even worse right? You don't just insult certain people but everyone who plays the freaking race. Next thing we gonne see is people calling Nestea/DRG/Leenock patchzergs when they win something.
It's only worse if you deny that there is imbalance in the matchup. It's pretty established by now that it is now very much the case.
"Is"? As far as I know blizzard released a patch and suddenly a ton of patchterrans are infesting Code S...
This post was made BEFORE the patch. It may not be so imbalanced now, but the only ones who can think the game was fine before that patch is seriously biased. Anyways still not watching any zerg matches in any tournament thanks to how zergs have to win: infestor-bl, the single most boring to watch composition in the whole game. I only watch Leenock due to his exciting and usually not infestor-bl playstyle.
Well, monkeybone's post wasn't made before the patch. And Infestor/BL in PvZ is a direct result of Protoss deathballs (which is a direct result of being unable to deal with roaches, zerglings in a dynamic ways). TvZ, ZvZ are a ton of fun to watch... At least TvZ has always been. But whatever, people are so blind raging about BL/Inf, that they even complained about Life being boring for building BL/Infestor vs Mvp, when he did so after attacking everywhere in every game they played... (people really should step back and read the LR threads from 1.5 years ago, when the same people that whine about BL/Inf being boring whined about Muta/ling/bling being only a-move and muta harass being way to easy and blablablabla... all of that with ~60% winrate for T)
The standard TvZ outlined by Ver was not fun to watch at all.
Many koreans are and always were heavy ling baneling muta users, which made for excellent games. But this is certainly not the case for foreigners.
Many Koreans have not used used mutalisks at all and made excelent games. The biggest problem is people's expectations. Ver posts some pretty pictures of SCfou vs Nestea... when this was considered the best game played up to this point. Same for Leenock vs Jjakji and DRG vs MMA. Then you go back and watch the legendary Idra vs MMA on Testbug - early phase of 3CC era and you get 15min of nothing happening as well. You watch DRG vs Marineking from MLG Winter (?) finals and it's like 3roach/baneling busts and 4 two rax (attempts). You go back and hear commentaries about how Mvp is a genius because his most offensive moves for 12mins were to move his army to the watchtower and back. The truth is that "games being more boring" has just being said because people wanted (or on TL needed) to avoid (probably justified) balance whines after the queen buff. (even if it is true) The truth is that the Infestor switch started before the queen buff, but nobody complained about "boring games" when DRG was being wiped out of the GSL going for the Stephano build...
On December 16 2012 07:41 hillman wrote: This thread has degraded into a support group for people who can't beat broodlord infestor. So they label anyone who wins with broodlord infestor a "patch zerg", that way they don't have to take responsibility for not being able to figure it out...Then they argue, "see! some Koreans have been losing to foreign zergs in a small sample of recent data, it must be imbalance!"
It's so much easier to just throw your hands up and blame it on those damn patchzergs..."they just make a couple infestors, throw in some broodlords, and 1A it across the map!"... Oh wait, there's more! It's actually a conspiracy to help foreign zergs win...Blizzard decided to throw away years of effort at creating an esport in order to help white people beat Koreas....Of course! Why didn't we see this before?
Nevermind that the metagame shifts and sometimes one race will have a dominant strategy for a period of time. Nevermind that Terrans often try to do the same old responses against broodlord infestors somehow expecting the results to be different. They never mention that often Zergs win because of the Ultralisk tech switch - and Terrans weren't prepared. Think about that, the Terran race who can get essentially free scouting in the late game gets caught of guard because they didn't know there was an ultra/brood or brood/ultra switch. But it's gotta be those patch zergs.
This article even goes as far as ignoring any mistakes the Terran player made in Code S matches, while characterizing the Zerg players as lazily falling asleep during the game before 1A'ing it to victory... Quit being whiny bitches, come up with something new instead of blaming the game. The other races have won major tournaments within a recent time span, somebody figured something out...Zerg isn't unbeatable. The sooner you get that into your heads, the sooner you can quit acting like victims because you don't like the way a computer game has been playing out recently.
Just stop. While people using "patch zerg" as a term is really idiotic, your position is on the other spectrum of stupidity. Your amateur psychology also applies in reverse. Your analysis is no less hyperbolic and shallow.
And seriously, defensive much? I guess any discussion on Zerg balance when Zergs are doing well is "whine" to you.
LOL, just calling it like I see it, bro. Do you have anything specific to cite, or are you just going to level general criticisms at me? If not, your argument is just empty rhetoric and name-calling.
What is the deal with all this? "patch zerg" means that all zergs are playing WITH the newest updated patch? So does "patch terran". It's impossible NOT to play with the patch, so why say "patch *anything*", everyone is a patch race... just say "zerg" or "terran" if you want to whine.
Hopefully HotS will make for a more interesting, balanced game. I think Blizzard might have some work to do to garner enough Terran and Protoss players to even buy the game.
EPT
