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On December 09 2012 01:06 DevolutionPrime wrote:
I've been prowling these forums on and off for years, mostly looking for timings, build advice, etc., and I finally made an account just so I could reply to this post:
The OP makes a few good points about infestor being overpowered and Zerg being more forgiving.
And then he devolves into a flaming rant that is chock full of more blatant racism than I've seen in any gaming forum.
I obviously haven't read every post on this thread (71 pages!) but why are more people not commenting on this?
It's all "white" vs. "Koreans". So, what, non-Korean players are all white? Ludicrous. Koreans are "more intelligent"? I'm sorry, what?
I don't care if this guy was trolling or being serious: this is the most offensive thing I've seen on the Liquid forums.
What is this, the rise of the Korean Panthers?
well it seems this text is released under the protective shell "irony"..
in this case it would be "write all the biased shit you want, exaggerate as much as possible, then just label it as irony and call people stupid who dont notice it".
calling non-koreans "white" and "foreign" is common since years though. but there is a even bigger racist undertone that makes something clear: this text is everything but no irony.
irony is something that must be noticed when reading, and is not just the excuse of a stupid rant.
what we got here is no irony. its just dull hate.
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On December 09 2012 01:48 avilo wrote:
I honestly do not think the patch really did anything substantial in terms of massing infestors lol. The raven change certainly did nothing except placate players that don't know any better and think a 1 time 150/150 cost going away is a buff to the unit.
But HOTS is so close...maybe they'll just leave the game like this.
edit: and to specify what i mean about the patch not doing anything to nerf mass infestor viability is it only matters in instances where you are in low numbers of infestors and moving into siege/collosus. Once you get 15+ infestors (with brood/corruptor) it's the same as last patch.
While HotS is understandably a higher priority for Blizzard I don't think they should leave WoL untouched. There were still sizeable populations playing vanilla SC and RoC even months after their respective expansions were released. Not everyone will be getting HotS on release day so it's not like a WoL patch will only be relevant for these next 4 months.
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On December 09 2012 01:50 cari-kira wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 01:06 DevolutionPrime wrote:
I've been prowling these forums on and off for years, mostly looking for timings, build advice, etc., and I finally made an account just so I could reply to this post:
The OP makes a few good points about infestor being overpowered and Zerg being more forgiving.
And then he devolves into a flaming rant that is chock full of more blatant racism than I've seen in any gaming forum.
I obviously haven't read every post on this thread (71 pages!) but why are more people not commenting on this?
It's all "white" vs. "Koreans". So, what, non-Korean players are all white? Ludicrous. Koreans are "more intelligent"? I'm sorry, what?
I don't care if this guy was trolling or being serious: this is the most offensive thing I've seen on the Liquid forums.
What is this, the rise of the Korean Panthers? well it seems this text is released under the protective shell "irony".. in this case it would be "write all the biased shit you want, exaggerate as much as possible, then just label it as irony and call people stupid who dont notice it". calling non-koreans "white" and "foreign" is common since years though. but there is a even bigger racist undertone that makes something clear: this text is everything but no irony. irony is something that must be noticed when reading, and is not just the excuse of a stupid rant. what we got here is no irony. its just dull hate.
WOW. Its not racism, stop with the political correctness crap. He is obviously pointing out how it looks from a different prism through satire. Its meant to be a fun read, there are no racist elements there, only a fun conspiracy read that is based off of real and very valid points that the infestor is overpowered, overused and much of the borefest going on in the matchup.
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The thing I don't understand is how the main rebuttals to balance from Zerg players are about "Terran dominance early 2010/11"
Don't you guys realise that the maps were 95% of the problem?
If we took SC2 1.0 on current day maps, I doubt we would have seen as much "Terran dominance" as we did.
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Oh my, I just scrolled through the whole article, and it seems really interesting to me, will read and comment later on that
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On December 09 2012 01:48 avilo wrote:
I dunno if anyone just saw nerchio vs kas...infestors, infestors, everywhere (and a hilarious end of the game where kas has ravens but can't even use them because fungal/IT spam).
for real now, biggest bullshit indeed. Also whats the point if infestors can outrun seeker missiles on creep
The problem in PvZ still exists also. All this patch does is that bad zergs, will lose more often, while it doesn't effect good players at all. Infestor / Broodlord is as strong as ever.
Air needs to be made viable for both Terran and Protoss. I mean its already a testament to Blizzards Game Design, that Protoss needs a 15 Range Air Unit that a unit can even hit Broodlords. Just because an Infestor / Corruptor / Broodlord Combat cannot be fought within a 8-9 Range.
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wow the TvZ right now from the THOR open 2012 tournament on entombed valley between Kas and Nerchio was just the the perfect textbook example for why tvz lategame is so broken right now.
I was just watching it live. at a point where both still were on 3-4 bases, Kas was maxed with about 5000 minerals, whereas Nerchio was broke at 120 supply, and I think even his greater spire got destroyed by a drop at this time.
then the turning point was that during the drops, Kas moved out in the middle of the map to siege up and destroy creep, but as he unsieged to move back, a bunch of burrowed infestors which Nerchio used to harass Kas base, crossed his path, unborrowed, and fungaled his army. Nerchio got something like a 100% for 10% trade off with those 'money fungals'.
and this gave him the time to build up the untouchable hive army. we saw a long lategame phase with a huge amount of ravens,vikings and later even ghosts with cloak and nuke, vs infestor,corrupter, broodlords and a bunch of ultras... and you know who won.
I think the game really demonstrated all the issues that the TvZ lategame had, as you could see everything that can happen:
- burrowed infestors get a money fungal to come back in a seemingly lost game
there is no real answer to burrowed infestors, since you can't scan or afford to scan all the time. and a single raven is kind of useless because this 200 gas unit will be taken down, as soon as it gets immobilized by a fungal and then destroyed by another fungal/infested terrans/corrupter. and building a new one costs so much time and effort, since you got to switch your starport to a techlab, wait until the raven is done, and then switch it back to a reactor - you rather get fungaled somewhere or get destroyed by a run by, while you spend time on doing this crap. so it's not worth doing it more than once in a game
- seeker missile getting evaded by spreading or by running away long and far enough
- infestors seem to be untouchable to everything - (cloaked)-ghosts, raven, tanks and all other T units, when protected by broodlords+corrupter
- when terran has to build this huge raven-viking-ghost army, they have no good answer to an ultra switch, since the ghost snipe nerf (was only demonstrated by a 3 ultra harass in this game, but you know what I mean..)
- since terran has got no 0 supply base defense (except for PF) and is much more immobile than the zerg, 3-3 ling,baneling run-by's or mass infested terrans can win the game by going on a suicide mission into the terrans main base when in the lategame on very big maps like entombed valley. and since the hive army is much stronger than what terran can ever build up anyways, the terran can't leave a huge amount of his army back in his base.
- and the worst thing about all of this is the clumping up of the ever so gas and production-time expensive raven-viking army, which punishes 1 little mistake with losing the entire game. in the end of this game you could perceive how 1-2 fungals were able to eventually nail down the entire raven fleet, even though Kas used scans for every single step that he did. but in the end he got nailed down.
dunno, but people who denie the issues in TvZ lategame nowadays, truly have to be blind.
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On December 09 2012 01:56 Zergofobic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 01:50 cari-kira wrote:On December 09 2012 01:06 DevolutionPrime wrote:
I've been prowling these forums on and off for years, mostly looking for timings, build advice, etc., and I finally made an account just so I could reply to this post:
The OP makes a few good points about infestor being overpowered and Zerg being more forgiving.
And then he devolves into a flaming rant that is chock full of more blatant racism than I've seen in any gaming forum.
I obviously haven't read every post on this thread (71 pages!) but why are more people not commenting on this?
It's all "white" vs. "Koreans". So, what, non-Korean players are all white? Ludicrous. Koreans are "more intelligent"? I'm sorry, what?
I don't care if this guy was trolling or being serious: this is the most offensive thing I've seen on the Liquid forums.
What is this, the rise of the Korean Panthers? well it seems this text is released under the protective shell "irony".. in this case it would be "write all the biased shit you want, exaggerate as much as possible, then just label it as irony and call people stupid who dont notice it". calling non-koreans "white" and "foreign" is common since years though. but there is a even bigger racist undertone that makes something clear: this text is everything but no irony. irony is something that must be noticed when reading, and is not just the excuse of a stupid rant. what we got here is no irony. its just dull hate. WOW. Its not racism, stop with the political correctness crap. He is obviously pointing out how it looks from a different prism through satire. Its meant to be a fun read, there are no racist elements there, only a fun conspiracy read that is based off of real and very valid points that the infestor is overpowered, overused and much of the borefest going on in the matchup.
you say spreading the picture of "koreans swarming foreign tourneys to rip of our beloved foreign players" is no racism?
do you see the analogy to right-wing politicians saying "foreigners take the workplaces from our people"?
irony must be clearly marked as "irony" through showing the stupidity of such arguments.
it has to lead you to the conclusion that these arguments are wrong in the end.
i dont see any of that here.
this text could only be understood as irony if you are prepared for it.
most people who read this will read a bit, then anticipate what he expects for the rest and it would sink into his subconsciousness, building the base of new prejudices.
remember, i dont speak about the author or its intentions.
i just analyze this text.
and to be true: i dont see any irony here at all.
a hate speech with some ridiculous statements as excuse to make it look like irony, but still hate.
[edit] you should read the comments.
they prove what i said.
most people actually understand this as a terran whine thread and are happily adding their own shit to it, thinking "oh yeah, the game is so imba that zerg hating is allowed on TL now, great, lets start flaming and whining."
how can you expect from this text to be read in another way?
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On December 07 2012 06:44 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:42 alhazrel wrote:
It seems like satire that never quite reaches the dizzy height of being funny. Is it a passive-aggressive whine about balance whiners? Is it a caricature of the melodramatic community response to every blizzard balance change? Is it a dig at the massive spell of terran dominance that a lot of terran players still claim was due to pro terrans just being better? (old blue flame hellions were the best thing...)
I dunno, maybe the reason I don't find it funny is because there seems to be a slight balance problem at the moment in favour of Zerg at a high level. Maaybe it's 'cause I actually do think spells that prevent people playing are stupid. Where do you get the energy to write all that? The gag to word ratio wasn't anywhere near high enough.
Also I guess all the people posting things like 'if you were as clever as me and the OP you'd get the joke and find it funny' annoy me a bit. There were like 3 bits that made me laugh, the rest is just hand-in-your-pants self congratulation. Simply. 1. Serious analysis, why the current metagame sucks with lots of examples and historical references 2. Humour/satire part with the things you've noticed. I think the problem you're experiencing is seeing good, intelligent analysis, seeing jokey satire and figuring out where the transition occurs?
There's no good, intelligent analysis. Perhaps you're mistaking generalised, factually absent, heavily ironic story-telling for analysis? The OP is engaging and well-written without being accurate.
I just read through it again to make sure you're wrong and the first reasonable line that I noticed was, 'If Byun had lost his army to banelings from one direction, then one could call him sloppy as it takes several seconds for banelings to appear in vision and close in for the kill. That is fair. Fungal has much less margin for error.' That line is sitting half way through feeling very lonely.
If you have the energy to go through the OP and pick out all the pieces of intelligent analysis you can find, I'll try super hard to make sure I respond to it.
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On December 09 2012 03:06 cari-kira wrote:
you say spreading the picture of "koreans swarming foreign tourneys to rip of our beloved foreign players" is no racism?
do you see the analogy to right-wing politicians saying "foreigners take the workplaces from our people"?
And I thought the racist part was: foreigners go home. Silly me.
Or in the other way round: When does a description (koreans win a lot of tournaments) turn into racism?
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Watching Sortof vs. Hyun right now... it really is true how only foreign zergs seem to be able to beat zergs, out of the foreigners.
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On December 09 2012 12:05 Shankapotamus wrote:
Watching Sortof vs. Hyun right now... it really is true how only foreign zergs seem to be able to beat zergs, out of the foreigners.
Sortof seems to have his #.
I can't remember how was Hyun's zvz at IPL5 this weekend.
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On December 09 2012 12:12 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 12:05 Shankapotamus wrote:
Watching Sortof vs. Hyun right now... it really is true how only foreign zergs seem to be able to beat zergs, out of the foreigners. Sortof seems to have his #. I can't remember how was Hyun's zvz at IPL5 this weekend.
Gsl s5 spoilers...
+ Show Spoiler +
It was Code S final (the hardest league in the world). Where he lost 3-4 to Mvp.Sniper.
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Oh those white patch zergs *eyeroll*
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On December 09 2012 01:55 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 01:48 avilo wrote:
I honestly do not think the patch really did anything substantial in terms of massing infestors lol. The raven change certainly did nothing except placate players that don't know any better and think a 1 time 150/150 cost going away is a buff to the unit.
But HOTS is so close...maybe they'll just leave the game like this.
edit: and to specify what i mean about the patch not doing anything to nerf mass infestor viability is it only matters in instances where you are in low numbers of infestors and moving into siege/collosus. Once you get 15+ infestors (with brood/corruptor) it's the same as last patch. While HotS is understandably a higher priority for Blizzard I don't think they should leave WoL untouched. There were still sizeable populations playing vanilla SC and RoC even months after their respective expansions were released. Not everyone will be getting HotS on release day so it's not like a WoL patch will only be relevant for these next 4 months.
Those players would presumably be casuals though, and the balance issues WoL currently faces don't really affect them at all. Every other major issue with WoL that will be solved at all will be solved in HotS.
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On December 08 2012 23:48 Let it Raine wrote:
I guess if you write a novel of complete shit you don't get banned like you would for a couple sentences.
^^^ this
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On December 09 2012 01:20 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 01:13 Odoakar wrote:
No matter how obviously over the top the article is written, sadly there's still some truth in in. Any matchup involving zerg is utterly boring as it always ends up with infestor broodlord fest, while PvP tends to get extremely horrible once it goes past the early game and we have war of the worlds and pew pew battles.
That leaves TvT and TvP as the only good matchups in this game. TvP is not a good matchup by any stretch of the imagination. The complete and utter shitfest that is TvZ has just overshadowed the complete and utter shit fest that is TvP in the past few months.
Would tend to agree to some extent. Though the "mid-game terran strong, late game protoss undefeatable" dynamic has made matches very predictable, at least there is some semblance of fairness and the better player wins.
TvZ on the other hand...it's just brutal to watch. With the amount of bullshit terrans have had to endure in this wreck of a matchup I'm surprised no serious pros at least switched races.
That said PvZ isn't much better either. It's sort of like: before zerg's 3 base economy kicks in, you beat the zerg, or else you chances of winning are reduced to the same level as terran. In the late game, protoss is even more likely to lose than terran thanks to how impossible it is to beat winfestor-gglord cost efficiently.
TLDR any matchup involving zerg sucks to the core.
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This text is full of hatespeech. I don't find it funny at all in the same way that if someone said they enjoy sleeping with 12 year old girls as not funny. It's at the very least trash.
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Although this was meant to be a piece of satire, it's sad that quite a lot of this is true.
SCII has become soo boring to watch nowadays. TvZ used to be my favourite match up to watch, and one of my favourites to play.
It's been said for a long time, the issue really does lie in the Infestor. It's become the core of the Zerg army due to how versatile it is. It filled in all the gaps and more than fixed all the issues that early WoL Zergs had. The problem is that Zergs have become a little too reliant on the unit, and it's very hard to change it without starting another issue with Zergs. It's taken them months (a year?) before a real nerf occurred with Infestors.
Can anyone deny that something is off with the game, when one race can Mass a Caster unit and do so well? It's a hard-counter to too many unit compositions, and a soft counter for everything else. At least with the range reduction, it lets the other race's Anti-Casters at least be able to do their job.
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in this thread : When satire and irony are taken seriously.
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EPT
