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On December 07 2012 08:26 Vindicare605 wrote:
Those pictures did it for me.
I honestly couldn't tell which Zerg was which with the Infestor/Broodlord pics, but I could easily tell who was playing with the Zergling/Baneling/Mutalisk pictures.
Are you serious? To me this was one of the dumbest parts of the article and one of the things that makes me wonder if Ver is trolling a bit. How exactly can you distinguish? Muta/ling/bane is ridiculously harder to play than than ling/infestor ofc, I get the point being made here. But, the reasoning with the screenshots is totally retarded.
To start, it isn't even a fair comparison. The muta/ling pics all have the timer + minimap open (the real giveaway), whereas 2/3 of the BL/Infestor pics don't have it open and the one that does (Ryung vs Scarlett iirc) is well into the lategame anyway so it's harder to determine the mechanical prowess.
Looking just at the compositions, what discerns the Korean (likely more skilled) player in that screenshot? It could just as easily have been a foreigner nipping at those tanks with the mutas, a foreigner rolling those banes into the pre-split terran force, or a foreigner killing....two marines surrounded by morphing banes -_-
Give me at least a gif or short video clip with the names blanked out, lol. Also, it works both ways. How can I determine whether the terran is a foreigner or code S in the BL/Infestor pics? (inb4 "because he's not dead yet").
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HoTS will change all of this.
The changes and units add so much needed depth to the game. We are just at the point now where there simply aren't the tools and units to deal with the combination of inf/bl but in HoTS there will be. This is why they need to be careful with any drastic unit changes.
In the short term it sucks but I really think HoTS will do for sc2 what BW did for SC1.
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On December 04 2012 03:58 Ver wrote:
4 base to 3, later 6 orbitals to 4 base.
On December 04 2012 03:58 Ver wrote:3 mining base to 6 ZvP,
If I remember my precedents correctly (SanZenith < sCfOu = Khaydarin Amulet nerf, where San was pretty much always at least two based ahead of sC) what you have cited is absolute and objective proof that Zerg is underpowered and the other two races need to be nerfed.
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This is the most awesome post TL has ever seen. I loved it. Thank you!
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they buff zerg so they can release heart of the swarm, obviously.
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How is the OP not a borderline racist conspiracy theory? Blizzard buffs Zerg so foreigners can't defeat Koreans, as if Koreans don't play Zerg? WTF ...
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Northern Ireland23763 Posts
On December 07 2012 13:16 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 03:58 Ver wrote:
4 base to 3, later 6 orbitals to 4 base. If I remember my precedents correctly (ManZenith < sCfOu = Khaydarin Amulet nerf, where San was pretty much always at least two based ahead of sC) what you have cited is absolute and objective proof that Zerg is underpowered and the other two races need to be nerfed.
That game was incredible to watch though. Amulet kind of gave us Protoss a crutch when we needed it I suppose, it would be broken as hell now but it did make for really good games in the days that Protoss hadn't figured out other things.
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Lol, this is an awesome article. The unsettling thing is that its the only viewpoint I've read so far that makes Blizzards patch policy look smart, with a clear goal in mind 
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Case in point: when Naniwa beat Flash in the first series at this MLG Dallas, people didn't care that he won in the dumbest way imaginable: nexus cancel into 1 base immortal allin that kills 4 bunkers, seriously? It didn't matter how bad the game design was that allowed that win, fans cheered their hardest because white boy, hated as he may be, beat famous korean boy; all else be damned.
Personally i found that game exciting to watch. Weather it was balanced or not atleast it it was "gimmicky" play with a plan behind it. From a viewer perspective it looked like a High risk, high reward build to throw in into best of series to keep your opponent playing "straight".
Other then that i liked the OP.
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Man, Ver's arguments are pretty undeniable. So much game data to back it up. The white people change bit made me lol, but as funny as it is, I'm kinda convinced that it is true.
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One of the best pieces I have ever read. as a player who got this game at release and who followed the gsl since the beginning I can relate to everything he is talking about. Its a simple fact that before the infestor buff zergs actually used only the other units. I never saw infestors until destiny did his 2 base infestor timing vs protoss..
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On contrary to previous poster, this is one of the worst pieces I've ever read. Racism and bias hidden behind data. Data that is thorougly manipulated to appear only through the distorted lens of the writer. Yes there is a problem with zergs and fungal, but:
1/ To see a foreigner based bias on this is just ridiculous, as well as the over analyzing of the quick words of some blizzard honcho "I'd like to see these people win: "OMG RACIST PRO WHITE PATCHZERG BIAS" is just straight up ridiculous. How can you write such a long and put together post and put such points in this?
2/ The second ridiculous statement is the fact that Blizzard puts on such imbalances on purpose. As if having an imbalanced game is fun, and rewarding both for the developer and the players on the long term. BW is a legendary game because it was balanced and it was the players shining out. And the best player or the player who outsmarted his opponent would almost always come ahead. To think that making a game unbalanced on purpose would help bolster their sales and grasp of the e-sport scene is... stupid (for lack of better words). Blizzard didn't always take good decisions, but for someone to believe they could shoot themselves in the foot like this on purpose of all things boggles my mind.
3/ You want the come back of muta/ling/bling in TvZ. So do I. I guess we both agree on this. However something irks me. All your data is post MLG Anaheim 2012. What happened before? To me your article is a "bring GOM TvT again please" plea in disguise, and as much as I hate infestor ZvZ wars as we see them now, coming back to the imbalances of the past is just repeating the same problem with another race: Terran.
4/ The game as evolved from when Muta/ling/bling was dominant in TvZ. Are we sure this would work against the new Terrans builds nowadays? As much as I'd like to see it come back, is it viable on a pro level?
You can use all the beautiful graphes and make big paragraphs full of beautiful words, they can't hide racism and bias. Which is too bad, because you also raise some valid points (while some other just made me laugh, not to be mean).
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The Infestors really is broken in more than one way.
On December 04 2012 03:58 Ver wrote:it's not even necessarily because Zerg is ultra-imbalanced, it's because above all, Zerg is easy, safe, and forgiving thanks to the infestor.
And being fungaled is very unforgiving.
On December 04 2012 03:58 Ver wrote:Community members and Zerg pros further reinforced this perception by pretending that it was a micro battle of "neural vs vortex," when it is actually a battle of: Protoss be damned, does the Zerg spread his army or not, make enough broodlords, bring along spines, and cast infestor spells fast enough.
So true ^^
On December 04 2012 03:58 Ver wrote:To summarize, Blizzard has deliberately designed SC2 over the past eighteen months so that foreigners can beat Koreans regularly, despite their general inferiority in skill.
Or Blizzard just wants their holy statistics to show 50,0:50,0 ...
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On December 07 2012 19:51 killy666 wrote:
On contrary to previous poster, this is one of the worst pieces I've ever read. Racism and bias hidden behind data. Data that is thorougly manipulated to appear only through the distorted lens of the writer. Yes there is a problem with zergs and fungal, but:
1/ To see a foreigner based bias on this is just ridiculous, as well as the over analyzing of the quick words of some blizzard honcho "I'd like to see these people win: "OMG RACIST PRO WHITE PATCHZERG BIAS" is just straight up ridiculous. How can you write such a long and put together post and put such points in this?
2/ The second ridiculous statement is the fact that Blizzard puts on such imbalances on purpose. As if having an imbalanced game is fun, and rewarding both for the developer and the players on the long term. BW is a legendary game because it was balanced and it was the players shining out. And the best player or the player who outsmarted his opponent would almost always come ahead. To think that making a game unbalanced on purpose would help bolster their sales and grasp of the e-sport scene is... stupid (for lack of better words). Blizzard didn't always take good decisions, but for someone to believe they could shoot themselves in the foot like this on purpose of all things boggles my mind.
3/ You want the come back of muta/ling/bling in TvZ. So do I. I guess we both agree on this. However something irks me. All your data is post MLG Anaheim 2012. What happened before? To me your article is a "bring GOM TvT again please" plea in disguise, and as much as I hate infestor ZvZ wars as we see them now, coming back to the imbalances of the past is just repeating the same problem with another race: Terran.
4/ The game as evolved from when Muta/ling/bling was dominant in TvZ. Are we sure this would work against the new Terrans builds nowadays? As much as I'd like to see it come back, is it viable on a pro level?
You can use all the beautiful graphes and make big paragraphs full of beautiful words, they can't hide racism and bias. Which is too bad, because you also raise some valid points (while some other just made me laugh, not to be mean).
Not sure if you're trolling or just cannot fathom the concept of a post not being 100% serious.
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Besides the obvious parts that are slightly trollish, it is truly saddening how much of it actually strikes me as true.
TvZ used to be the undeniable best matchup in the game. Now it is a complete and total abomination that I can barely bring myself to watch, and I find myself watching less and less of the game in general. The last GSL finals were just depressing and didn´t deliver entertainment, and I find myself skipping more and more tournaments, because honestly, who cares what Z picks up the trophy.
Ryung was right when he said what he said, he might not deserved the win, but he should have at least been given a fair chance. If not, I will at some point stop watching because I simply am not entertained by the current metagame in 2 out of the 3 non-mirrors, while non-mirrors should be the most exciting part of watching the game.
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im missing the TSL Stats in that foreigners wins over koreans list... TSL 3 we had many foreigner wins over koreans.. f.e. goody vs nestea or thorzain vs mc
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"To summarize, Blizzard has deliberately designed SC2 over the past eighteen months so that foreigners can beat Koreans regularly, despite their general inferiority in skill."
To summarize the reality even further: Blizzard has deliberately designed SC2 so that foreigners can beat Koreans.
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Northern Ireland23763 Posts
On December 07 2012 18:41 Mooneyes wrote:Show nested quote +Case in point: when Naniwa beat Flash in the first series at this MLG Dallas, people didn't care that he won in the dumbest way imaginable: nexus cancel into 1 base immortal allin that kills 4 bunkers, seriously? It didn't matter how bad the game design was that allowed that win, fans cheered their hardest because white boy, hated as he may be, beat famous korean boy; all else be damned. Personally i found that game exciting to watch. Weather it was balanced or not atleast it it was "gimmicky" play with a plan behind it. From a viewer perspective it looked like a High risk, high reward build to throw in into best of series to keep your opponent playing "straight". Other then that i liked the OP.
High risk/high reward ballsy moves are fine. Flash did the exact same with his bunker rush in the last game, was a nice intense BoX series.
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On December 07 2012 10:16 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 08:54 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
It is HILARIOUS!! how some people still say "your supposed to stop him from getting to the late game its your fault!!" to a terran about the TvZ match up.
Thats the biggets crock of B.S. I ever heard in my life. And if you truly believe in this way of thinking for dealing with balance, you should jump off a bridge. Lets see you stop DRG from getting to the late game with this analyzation. The truth is........MOST (IF NOT ALL) pro gamers, will bring the game into the late game. So if you have this mentality you are most likely a bronze retard living in your basement at your moms house going to college trying to get a liberal arts degree and still working at starbucks. Your brain has to be literaly the size of a pea, and if you even dare post your non sensical shit on teamliquid again with any ounce of pride.......YOU SHOULD SUICIDE. I wish I was a mod i'd ban your ass so fast, then drive to your house and beat the fuck out of you.
Also, you probably voted for Obama, so get off your ass and call mommy crying on your Obama phone kid!!
And do us all a favor and crack your sc2 disc in half.
Thanks
User was temp banned for this post. Posts like this really make me wish I could see the person typing it out in real life.
You would find a sad sad individual 
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EPT
