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well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1.upgraded MMM of course, with a ton of siege tanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected by Korean Pros. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. Limiting the economy of the Zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base worker line., if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion, using its god given speed, should be enough to scout for the Terran army.
3. Use a Medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) Thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The Terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map.
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating. Target the drone, not the structures. Worker kills do a devastating economic damage
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
4. Weaker units, should not come into the field of play until they are fully upgraded. That includes Thors, Ravens, Banshees, and Hellions. Keep the weaker units protected inside the base and upgrade them.
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On December 06 2012 21:14 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 13:56 azoriusherald wrote:
Interesting and well-constructed article. However, it makes me laugh how people forget their history. The fact that words like "patchzerg" and "winfestor" exist does not indicate that zergs have been somehow especially fortunate in the balance trends of the game. Remember the excellent song "Terran's OP?" Or Sen's hilarious "SENTRY IMBA!!" video? I wouldn't go as far as to say it's zergs' turn to be imbalanced, but come on people, you used to scold us poor zergs for making similarly unnuanced and cheap balance arguments. No one gets turns becoming imbalanced. The game needs to be in a constant strive to become better. At this point it's becoming worse, and it's peak days were pre queen change, where the game was actually semi-balanced. Blizzard screwed the game up. That there have been imbalances when the game was young is understandable. There shouldn't be more now than before.
That's why I said I WOULDN'T argue that it's zergs' turn to be imbalanced. I merely wanted to point out that when zergs had similar complaints about terran and toss, they were told to mix up their strategies, learn the game, stop misinterpreting statistics, stop complaining, etc...
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On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d
1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter.
2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game.
3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS:
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It seems like satire that never quite reaches the dizzy height of being funny. Is it a passive-aggressive whine about balance whiners? Is it a caricature of the melodramatic community response to every blizzard balance change? Is it a dig at the massive spell of terran dominance that a lot of terran players still claim was due to pro terrans just being better? (old blue flame hellions were the best thing...)
I dunno, maybe the reason I don't find it funny is because there seems to be a slight balance problem at the moment in favour of Zerg at a high level. Maaybe it's 'cause I actually do think spells that prevent people playing are stupid. Where do you get the energy to write all that? The gag to word ratio wasn't anywhere near high enough.
Also I guess all the people posting things like 'if you were as clever as me and the OP you'd get the joke and find it funny' annoy me a bit. There were like 3 bits that made me laugh, the rest is just hand-in-your-pants self congratulation.
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Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On December 07 2012 06:42 alhazrel wrote:
It seems like satire that never quite reaches the dizzy height of being funny. Is it a passive-aggressive whine about balance whiners? Is it a caricature of the melodramatic community response to every blizzard balance change? Is it a dig at the massive spell of terran dominance that a lot of terran players still claim was due to pro terrans just being better? (old blue flame hellions were the best thing...)
I dunno, maybe the reason I don't find it funny is because there seems to be a slight balance problem at the moment in favour of Zerg at a high level. Maaybe it's 'cause I actually do think spells that prevent people playing are stupid. Where do you get the energy to write all that? The gag to word ratio wasn't anywhere near high enough.
Also I guess all the people posting things like 'if you were as clever as me and the OP you'd get the joke and find it funny' annoy me a bit. There were like 3 bits that made me laugh, the rest is just hand-in-your-pants self congratulation.
Simply.
1. Serious analysis, why the current metagame sucks with lots of examples and historical references
2. Humour/satire part with the things you've noticed.
I think the problem you're experiencing is seeing good, intelligent analysis, seeing jokey satire and figuring out where the transition occurs?
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On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS:
1. explain...
the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly.
2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. Hellions with their speed are natural scouts. They are good for early to mid game scouting.. After that? hellions would be useful as harass units with their blue flame upgrade. Ghosts with their cloaks are also naturally good scouts. Lata game, ghosts could become threats to the zerg drone workers if the zerg neglects to protect an expansion base.
3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. It needs to be tried at least , late game. the key is to upgrade the thors.. thors as it is are pretty useless, until the hots patch upgrade.
4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing.
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On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure.4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing.
what the ??? 250mm canon on the worker line ? seriously man ? u got fever or something?
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On December 07 2012 06:53 Arwa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure.4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing. what the ??? 250mm canon on the worker line ? seriously man ? u got fever or something?
quote the entire article. that is really disrespectful of you to no quote the entire article. I said that the tactic needs to be
refined and experimented on.. most Korean Terrans don't even know how to use the thor at all. They just build a weak unupgrade thor for slaughter against the zerg or protoss army. The Thor is a specialty unit that should be protected inside the base at all times until they are fully upgraded... that was my main point. After the thor is upgraded, using them through a medivac vehicle and dropping them on unprotected zerg bases might be an interesting idea. The 250mm is one of their strongest attacks, so i suggested that.
so you are going to cherry pick one miscalculation of mine to destroy the entire ideas of my post? You are right, that's a bad idea. But at least i am offering new ideas.. THor drops onto workers might be a cost efficient tactic one day. wait and you watch.
But, of course you are going to ignore my other points to just to ridicule a miscalculation of mine. that's pretty low of you...
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On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. 4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing.
1. Leapfrogging tanks mean nothing when broodlords are on field. You cant leapfrog broodling bombs. There are situation where leapfrogging is necessary, but moving too slow across the map means broodlords come out and nullify the usefullness of seige mode completely.
2. Yes scouting is good. Banshee scouts are used later in game to spot and kill drones making new expansions (when an early banshee was kept alive). Hellions can be used if terrain is mech, otherwise there is no reason to make them. Most scouting information can be got from a key scan on tech, or a marine drop. I wont even touch scouting with ghosts..... this makes me agree with other guy that you don't play much...
3. Good for a base trade I suppose... otherwise a huge wast of heavy gas units that will be easily cleaned up by ling/infestor. Also 250mm devastating a worker line????? I don't think you have any idea how this ability works. Please go try it out in game before you give advice like that. There is no splash if that's what you are thinking......
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Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. 4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing.
'L2p Terrans, the solutions are there'. 'Stop coming up with stupid solutions'. Kind kind of see your frustration. You don't base your entire game around such cute things, but you can definitely use them! Far too many people only consider something a good idea, if they see it in action first as done by a pro. At the very least, explore such ideas.
Against Idra I saw MMA pick up his tanks in his medivacs, circle around and drop them on top of his infestors
Ryung played a really sick TvZ with Stephano, with tank drops, Thor drops, nukes and everything. Yeah he lost but wow, what a fun series. Think it was at an MLG
Little things like shooting your own hellions or rocks to use the splash to kill tumours.
Using Infested Terrans to tank for tank volleys and close the gap
Unexplored ideas Might work, might not
More frequent use of EMPs on your own army to make say, mech less weak to feedback. Seen some guys use it on medivacs before to drop and it seemed to work at least for that.
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In the newest HOTS build Fungal Growth is a projectile and infested terrans don't get upgrades. The nerfs keep coming so I don't think we need to worry about the infestor anymore.
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On December 07 2012 06:59 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. 4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing. 'L2p Terrans, the solutions are there'. 'Stop coming up with stupid solutions'. Kind kind of see your frustration. You don't base your entire game around such cute things, but you can definitely use them! Far too many people only consider something a good idea, if they see it in action first as done by a pro. At the very least, explore such ideas. Against Idra I saw MMA pick up his tanks in his medivacs, circle around and drop them on top of his infestors Ryung played a really sick TvZ with Stephano, with tank drops, Thor drops, nukes and everything. Yeah he lost but wow, what a fun series. Think it was at an MLG Little things like shooting your own hellions or rocks to use the splash to kill tumours. Using Infested Terrans to tank for tank volleys and close the gap Unexplored ideas Might work, might not More frequent use of EMPs on your own army to make say, mech less weak to feedback. Seen some guys use it on medivacs before to drop and it seemed to work at least for that.
"Cute" Techniques only gain you so much in a game. At some point solid tactics are the only way to win. Stuff like tank drop on infestor can easily be counter by fungle growth, thor drops are like a coinflip, they have to do a lot of damage to justify that gas, nukes are situational and can be good but are a heavy investment.
At some point players figure out how to deflect the cute techniques and at this point their solid tactics will just roll over and destroy you. Terran can only play so many tricks until infestors stop every single one of them.
Either way most of this balance talk is pretty much moot, the new beta patch changes everything =) things are going to be awsome!
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On December 07 2012 06:58 Wilsonator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. 4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing. 1. Leapfrogging tanks mean nothing when broodlords are on field. You cant leapfrog broodling bombs. There are situation where leapfrogging is necessary, but moving too slow across the map means broodlords come out and nullify the usefullness of seige mode completely. 2. Yes scouting is good. Banshee scouts are used later in game to spot and kill drones making new expansions (when an early banshee was kept alive). Hellions can be used if terrain is mech, otherwise there is no reason to make them. Most scouting information can be got from a key scan on tech, or a marine drop. I wont even touch scouting with ghosts..... this makes me agree with other guy that you don't play much... 3. Good for a base trade I suppose... otherwise a huge wast of heavy gas units that will be easily cleaned up by ling/infestor. Also 250mm devastating a worker line????? I don't think you have any idea how this ability works. Please go try it out in game before you give advice like that. There is no splash if that's what you are thinking......
1. fair enough.. but i think korean pros need to at least try the technique against zerg compositions. the brood lords can be dealt with through vikings and marines.
2. i know about the scans. You are right, i watch lots of Sc2, don't play it, don't have the time.. The using cloaked ghosts
as a scout is not a bad idea, if the the cost is not prohibitive.
3. 250 mm cannon don't do splash damage... i knew that.. But at least i'm offering ideas and solutions. people here are not offering solutions to the terran illness. what do you think about an upgraded thor dropped on a neglected expansion by a zerg?
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On December 07 2012 07:06 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:58 Wilsonator wrote:On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. 4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing. 1. Leapfrogging tanks mean nothing when broodlords are on field. You cant leapfrog broodling bombs. There are situation where leapfrogging is necessary, but moving too slow across the map means broodlords come out and nullify the usefullness of seige mode completely. 2. Yes scouting is good. Banshee scouts are used later in game to spot and kill drones making new expansions (when an early banshee was kept alive). Hellions can be used if terrain is mech, otherwise there is no reason to make them. Most scouting information can be got from a key scan on tech, or a marine drop. I wont even touch scouting with ghosts..... this makes me agree with other guy that you don't play much... 3. Good for a base trade I suppose... otherwise a huge wast of heavy gas units that will be easily cleaned up by ling/infestor. Also 250mm devastating a worker line????? I don't think you have any idea how this ability works. Please go try it out in game before you give advice like that. There is no splash if that's what you are thinking...... 1. fair enough.. but i think korean pros need to at least try the technique against zerg compositions. the brood lords can be dealt with through vikings and marines. 2. i know about the scans. You are right, i watch lots of Sc2, don't play it, don't have the time.. The using cloaked ghosts as a scout is not a bad idea, if the the cost is not prohibitive. 3. 250 mm cannon don't do splash damage... i knew that.. But at least i'm offering ideas and solutions. people here are not offering solutions to the terran illness. what do you think about an upgraded thor dropped on a neglected expansion by a zerg?
1. Marine dont kil broodlord because infestors kill every marine in sight with fungle. Cant get close enough unless you completly outplay and outposition your opponent. Ie. zerg makes a HUGE error.
2. Unfortunately cost is always prohibitive. Especially gas cost. I don't see ghost scouting happening any time, ever.
3. Terrans already pretty much know how to win in TvZ. Outplay your opponent to such a degree that his mechanics fall to shambles through multi tasking and drops, or cripple him so hard early that you can just barely edge out a win later in the game when infesters are out. Unfortunately this solution doesn't seem very fair skill wise. A thor drop is situational as best. An undefended expansion will be vulnerable yes. But it will be no more vulnerable to a thor than it would be to a marine drop, or hellion drop/runby. If you are going mech and the only drop you have avaliable is a thor, well thats what you go with. If you can drop gas cheaper units, much better to do. A non neglected expansion will kill a thor as easily as a marine drop.
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Northern Ireland23765 Posts
On December 07 2012 07:05 Wilsonator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:59 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. 4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing. 'L2p Terrans, the solutions are there'. 'Stop coming up with stupid solutions'. Kind kind of see your frustration. You don't base your entire game around such cute things, but you can definitely use them! Far too many people only consider something a good idea, if they see it in action first as done by a pro. At the very least, explore such ideas. Against Idra I saw MMA pick up his tanks in his medivacs, circle around and drop them on top of his infestors Ryung played a really sick TvZ with Stephano, with tank drops, Thor drops, nukes and everything. Yeah he lost but wow, what a fun series. Think it was at an MLG Little things like shooting your own hellions or rocks to use the splash to kill tumours. Using Infested Terrans to tank for tank volleys and close the gap Unexplored ideas Might work, might not More frequent use of EMPs on your own army to make say, mech less weak to feedback. Seen some guys use it on medivacs before to drop and it seemed to work at least for that. "Cute" Techniques only gain you so much in a game. At some point solid tactics are the only way to win. Stuff like tank drop on infestor can easily be counter by fungle growth, thor drops are like a coinflip, they have to do a lot of damage to justify that gas, nukes are situational and can be good but are a heavy investment. At some point players figure out how to deflect the cute techniques and at this point their solid tactics will just roll over and destroy you. Terran can only play so many tricks until infestors stop every single one of them. Either way most of this balance talk is pretty much moot, the new beta patch changes everything =) things are going to be awsome!
Of course I agree, you can't base yourself around gimmickry for sure! However a good potential idea isn't bad because it hasn't been done yet
I'm sure things like Mass Infestor play, or warp prism PvZ were things that you could have suggested but been torn down at certain times. Pro players were able to explore these to make them a lot more solid to implement, but the strategic potential of ideas isn't necessarily something you can disprove based on the idea, unless it's a really terrible idea.
Terran is a race based on really basic styles, but is all about executing a lot of solid AND 'cute' play to make it more effective. Splitting to counter banelings, drop micro, dropping marines on banelings, positional nukes and lots of small examples of 'soft' counters to certain styles.
It's why Terran is, for my money the well-designed race overall.
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On December 07 2012 07:13 Wilsonator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:06 chatuka wrote:On December 07 2012 06:58 Wilsonator wrote:On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. 4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing. 1. Leapfrogging tanks mean nothing when broodlords are on field. You cant leapfrog broodling bombs. There are situation where leapfrogging is necessary, but moving too slow across the map means broodlords come out and nullify the usefullness of seige mode completely. 2. Yes scouting is good. Banshee scouts are used later in game to spot and kill drones making new expansions (when an early banshee was kept alive). Hellions can be used if terrain is mech, otherwise there is no reason to make them. Most scouting information can be got from a key scan on tech, or a marine drop. I wont even touch scouting with ghosts..... this makes me agree with other guy that you don't play much... 3. Good for a base trade I suppose... otherwise a huge wast of heavy gas units that will be easily cleaned up by ling/infestor. Also 250mm devastating a worker line????? I don't think you have any idea how this ability works. Please go try it out in game before you give advice like that. There is no splash if that's what you are thinking...... 1. fair enough.. but i think korean pros need to at least try the technique against zerg compositions. the brood lords can be dealt with through vikings and marines. 2. i know about the scans. You are right, i watch lots of Sc2, don't play it, don't have the time.. The using cloaked ghosts as a scout is not a bad idea, if the the cost is not prohibitive. 3. 250 mm cannon don't do splash damage... i knew that.. But at least i'm offering ideas and solutions. people here are not offering solutions to the terran illness. what do you think about an upgraded thor dropped on a neglected expansion by a zerg? 1. Marine dont kil broodlord because infestors kill every marine in sight with fungle. Cant get close enough unless you completly outplay and outposition your opponent. Ie. zerg makes a HUGE error. 2. Unfortunately cost is always prohibitive. Especially gas cost. I don't see ghost scouting happening any time, ever. 3. Terrans already pretty much know how to win in TvZ. Outplay your opponent to such a degree that his mechanics fall to shambles through multi tasking and drops, or cripple him so hard early that you can just barely edge out a win later in the game when infesters are out. Unfortunately this solution doesn't seem very fair skill wise. A thor drop is situational as best. An undefended expansion will be vulnerable yes. But it will be no more vulnerable to a thor than it would be to a marine drop, or hellion drop/runby. If you are going mech and the only drop you have avaliable is a thor, well thats what you go with. If you can drop gas cheaper units, much better to do. A non neglected expansion will kill a thor as easily as a marine drop.
1. the tanks outrange the infestors. as long as marines stay out of the range of infestors, they should be protected by the seige tanks.. that is the point of my argument.. the vikings should counter the broodlords. the corruptors dealth with by the marines.
2. you are probably right, unfortunately. I want to see someone at least try it though.
3. good analysis. the question really is how much damage could an upgraded thor drop do to a drone line. If the answer is 10 an above, the thor drop would be worth the cost IMO. THors should never be dropped in a guarded base, that is foolish of course.
4. The more devastating unit is the siege tank.. it cost less and an upgraded siege tank drop on a line of drones would be devastating... that tactic needs to be used more by Korean pros.. definitely.
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On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. Hellions with their speed are natural scouts. They are good for early to mid game scouting.. After that? hellions would be useful as harass units with their blue flame upgrade. Ghosts with their cloaks are also naturally good scouts. Lata game, ghosts could become threats to the zerg drone workers if the zerg neglects to protect an expansion base. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. It needs to be tried at least , late game. the key is to upgrade the thors.. thors as it is are pretty useless, until the hots patch upgrade. 4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing.
Sorry I understand I shouldn't be as offensive as in the last post. You were just offering proposals, and Teamliquid should be be open to people of different skill level.
1) Tank is not the counter really (it's okay though). But the problem clearly isn't that terran can't siege up at the right time (which leapfroging would solve), but simple that terran can't beat the infestor/hive army even with perfect tank control.
2) Again, scouting for what? Scouting needs to have a purpose. If you know your opinion have 5 expos, and have hive tech and is teching to broods and willl have broods finished in time xx, then there is 0 purpose of investing additional resosurces in scouting.
3) 250 M cannon sucks. Thors have a higher DPS without it.
4) Im goanna tell you a seceret here, but random TL forum posters don't solve anything. Topplayers do! Unforutnately that's the truth, though theorycrafters have a difficult time admitting it.
Also, HOTS is coming, and the game will be differnet. Best solution right now is just to keep practicing hard.
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Northern Ireland23765 Posts
Agreed with 4 Hider, but I mean that's not to say us TLers can not find cool ideas that pros could play around with.
Destiny showed the potential of Infestors long before other players had latched on and really refined the styles.
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On December 07 2012 07:24 chatuka wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 07:13 Wilsonator wrote:On December 07 2012 07:06 chatuka wrote:On December 07 2012 06:58 Wilsonator wrote:On December 07 2012 06:47 chatuka wrote:On December 07 2012 06:41 Hider wrote:On December 07 2012 06:35 chatuka wrote:
well I do think Terrans have been limited for sure. But Korean pros need to use their resources more wisely.
against a zerg what is useful?
1. MMM of course, with a ton of siegetanks to counter the infestors. Leapfrogging tanks are still not perfected. As the only player that has really used the leapfrogging technique was Byun vs Nada (that was a genius game from Byun).
2. limiting the economy of the zerg entails harass units. What kind of Teran units could harass and what kind of units are best for scouting? Ghosts could be a scout the entire game or pick off a 3rd or 4th zerg base, if the zerg army moves out and leaves the workers vulnerable. The hellion is a perfecting scouting vehicle. However, hellions in bunches is only valuable as a harass unit when they attain blue flame upgrade. One hellion using its god given speed should be enough to scout for the terran army.
3. use a medivac to drop siege tanks and (Upgraded) thors into heavily fortified or secluded zerg bases that have vulnerabilities. The terran army needs to turtle and not move out and lose material needlessly to zerg agression. Stay in your bases, and use your scouts like the ghosts or hellions to do the scouting info, even banshees are good scouting units.
I think Flash or Fantasy could re-innovate the way terrans deal with the Zerg terror. These would be the concepts that would have to be adhered strictly.
1. Turtle heavily. don't lose material needlessly in the middle of the map
2. Harass with actual useful units like BLue-flame, upgraded thors or upgraded banshess, and 5 siege tanks dropped in a worker line would be Devastating.
3. Scout efficiently with hellions, banshees, or ghosts.
I look at your posts and see someone who has watched to most day9 and played too little. Your proposals are (sorry to say) it hopelessly stupid and shows little game understan.d 1) Terran's shouldn't be leapfrogging. Top terrans actually do a fine job at sieging at the right time. Problem is that it doens't matter. 2) Why the hell would the terran scout? For what? He isn't goanna get any valuable information by using a hellion to scout in the mid/late game. 3) No that's why terran use marines. Thors are way to expensive to lose and to little DPS: 1. explain... the Siege tank is the counter to the infestor right? Leapfrogging the tanks are the only viable way to move the Terran army forward against any army. positioning and micro battle would be quintessential tasks that would be most valued during the fight. I don't see enough Terrans trying that tactic. I saw BYun do this Nada Brilliantly. the tactic does work if used correctly. 2. why would anybody scout? that is a really dumb question dude. It's obvious you don't know too much about warfare or even SC2. 3. I kind of agree, for sure. THors are very cost innefficient. but the 250 mm canon into a worker line would be pretty devastating. for sure. 4. way to belittle my posts.At least I am offering solutions, What are you offering??? Exactly, nothing. 1. Leapfrogging tanks mean nothing when broodlords are on field. You cant leapfrog broodling bombs. There are situation where leapfrogging is necessary, but moving too slow across the map means broodlords come out and nullify the usefullness of seige mode completely. 2. Yes scouting is good. Banshee scouts are used later in game to spot and kill drones making new expansions (when an early banshee was kept alive). Hellions can be used if terrain is mech, otherwise there is no reason to make them. Most scouting information can be got from a key scan on tech, or a marine drop. I wont even touch scouting with ghosts..... this makes me agree with other guy that you don't play much... 3. Good for a base trade I suppose... otherwise a huge wast of heavy gas units that will be easily cleaned up by ling/infestor. Also 250mm devastating a worker line????? I don't think you have any idea how this ability works. Please go try it out in game before you give advice like that. There is no splash if that's what you are thinking...... 1. fair enough.. but i think korean pros need to at least try the technique against zerg compositions. the brood lords can be dealt with through vikings and marines. 2. i know about the scans. You are right, i watch lots of Sc2, don't play it, don't have the time.. The using cloaked ghosts as a scout is not a bad idea, if the the cost is not prohibitive. 3. 250 mm cannon don't do splash damage... i knew that.. But at least i'm offering ideas and solutions. people here are not offering solutions to the terran illness. what do you think about an upgraded thor dropped on a neglected expansion by a zerg? 1. Marine dont kil broodlord because infestors kill every marine in sight with fungle. Cant get close enough unless you completly outplay and outposition your opponent. Ie. zerg makes a HUGE error. 2. Unfortunately cost is always prohibitive. Especially gas cost. I don't see ghost scouting happening any time, ever. 3. Terrans already pretty much know how to win in TvZ. Outplay your opponent to such a degree that his mechanics fall to shambles through multi tasking and drops, or cripple him so hard early that you can just barely edge out a win later in the game when infesters are out. Unfortunately this solution doesn't seem very fair skill wise. A thor drop is situational as best. An undefended expansion will be vulnerable yes. But it will be no more vulnerable to a thor than it would be to a marine drop, or hellion drop/runby. If you are going mech and the only drop you have avaliable is a thor, well thats what you go with. If you can drop gas cheaper units, much better to do. A non neglected expansion will kill a thor as easily as a marine drop. 1. the tanks outrange the infestors. as long as marines stay out of the range of infestors, they should be protected by the seige tanks.. that is the point of my argument.. the vikings should counter the broodlords. the corruptors dealth with by the marines. 2. you are probably right, unfortunately. I want to see someone at least try it though. 3. good analysis. the question really is how much damage could an upgraded thor drop do to a drone line. If the answer is 10 an above, the thor drop would be worth the cost IMO. THors should never be dropped in a guarded base, that is foolish of course. 4. The more devastating unit is the siege tank.. it cost less and an upgraded siege tank drop on a line of drones would be devastating... that tactic needs to be used more by Korean pros.. definitely.
1. Unfortunately the dynamics don't quite work out this way. If broodlords are around tanks pretty much have to unseige. Friendly fire damage from broodling shots devastate your army. With the broodlords so far back viking have to move pretty far up to get good shots, putting them in range of fungle. Which means you need a great spread of viking. Corruptors will not be in range of marines unless you are massively out positioning your opponent. There is a point where a viking army with amazing spread still has a very small chance of success. Which is where ravens come in (but they require significant time investment, hard to have them available at the right times without dying before they are useful) and to make ravens effective the zerg must have made the mistake to be clumped. Late game TvZ most often requires mistakes from zerg, and phenominal play by terrain. While terran can still win, the skill differential required for the terran to do so is staggering.
4. We come back to gas conservation. Losing seige tanks in a drop is not good for your survival. Trading economy for a strong army unit like that can get you killed immediately. This is useful when broodlords come out, situationally. Tanks lose a lot of usefulness and some pros do start dropping them, but you still want them for the ultra switch.
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On December 07 2012 07:32 Wombat_NI wrote:
Agreed with 4 Hider, but I mean that's not to say us TLers can not find cool ideas that pros could play around with.
Destiny showed the potential of Infestors long before other players had latched on and really refined the styles.
Destiny also pplayed at a level above your average TL guy (like mid GM).
I'd say if you think you can actually invent something that will have an impact on high level play and you are like a platinum or something like that, you are lying to your self. (which people often do IRL because they don't want to face the truth).
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EPT
