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Wow.
First it was a good read, I agreed there are/were problemes with zerg and especially infestors, but saying it allowed foreigners ( which are pretty bad in your opinion if we read between the lines ) to take victories they don't disserve ( like Scarlett only being a patchzerg with no particular skill because she lost to Sleep ).
It is bullshit. Huk and Naniwa won tournaments and even placed well in code S, Stephano is the most talented player on the scene but you prefer to reduce foreign achievements to unbalanced wins ? This korean fanatic way of thinking is ridiculous.
I agree the game has became worse, but you go way to far
EDIT : "Hint: 2 white Zergs, 1 Korean Terran, 1 Korean Protoss. He "hopes" the white Zerg wins.
Case closed." This is not far from racism IMO, and clearly shows some korean fanatism and lack of objectivity
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On December 07 2012 00:26 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 23:38 Hider wrote:On December 06 2012 23:32 Djagulingu wrote:
Terran was complained imbalanced for centuries and there were no articles about it. Then all of a sudden Zergs come out of nowhere and hello lings of liberty. The big myth. Terran wasn't imbalanced really. Sure Gomtvt existed but terran is the most played race so an overreprsentation is natural. If terran isn't overrepresented then you know the game is imbalanced. Also why Gomtv was going on, every single foreign terran player was losing left and right. So while the game was balanced at the top level in Korea, it was much more difficult for foreign terran players to win than for protoss and zerg players. Since the zerg patch, even Korean terran players are losing as well, and it has just got even worse since the patch. CLose to 1/3 of zerg master league players doesn't deserve to be in masters (assuming the average zerg player is of equal skill to the average terran player), and this is killing high diamond terrans who are superior to the low master zerg players. But due to imbalances they are having a much more difficult time. Since the game is imbalanced at every level currently (even after the infestor nerf, they it's slightly better), it's only rational that terran players are whining. You do realise at some point we had 20+ Terran in code S?. Its twice as many as as the zerg race has ever got.
Most pros saw the most potential in Terran. Not only was it the race that was closest to it's corresponding broodwar race, it was also the one that provided the most utility from multitask and micro. With old legends such as boxer and nada taking up terran, many players started playing terran. The fact that terran required the least transition from broodwar and at the time attracted best talent meant that they were going to dominate early GOM.
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On December 04 2012 18:24 elKaDor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 18:11 Godwrath wrote:On December 04 2012 17:56 KOtical wrote:On December 04 2012 17:50 elKaDor wrote:
go immortal sentry allin and u will get a freewin, god im tired of this patchzerg shit ok so ur generally saying all terrans should switch to P and immortal sentry all-in is the solution for the whole game to be balanced... great mindset  No the guy is just whining because he loses to immortal sentry allin. And then add a remark of how tired he is of people calling others patchzergs  i have never lost to an immortal sentry allin since i havent played any game in about 1,5 year, cuz the game is a total failure. BUT it was kinda fun to watch tournaments but it isnt anymore cuz all u see is immortal sentry allins, if that fails then Z will roflstomp P lategame. U enjoy this game?
How can you know the game is retarded if you didnt play it for almost 2 years ? This is non-sense and certainly not Sparta
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Thank you for the great thread 
I enjoyed reading it and I am glad I am not the only one, who is thinking like that :D Keep it up!
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the 3 zerg base beating 6+ protoss base and protoss whose been "outplaying" zerg all game is very reminiscent of 3 base protoss deathball beating 6+ zerg base and zerg whose been "outplaying" protoss all game. glad the roles are reversed and protoss are now complaining about the deathball lol
also ultras and a huge army supply lead are what made charging the choke "ok" in the Ryung vs Sniper. infestor ling would not have been able to do that but obviously ultra ling infestor is gonna beat marine tank -_____-
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I've pretty much stopped watching SC2 because the game is simply more boring to watch than it used to be even though I consider this era, where the KESPA players have switched, to be the most appealing in terms of players.
Regardless of how balanced the infestor is, it is a unit that isn't fun to use, watch, or play against. It is a unit with anti-fun mechanics. Caster units should add excitement (Thorzain vs MC) and not completely slow the game down.
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I'd like to see the graphs minus stephano. He makes up about 80% of the wins by a quick look at your list of zvx wins
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And why is whites winning a bad thing? It's about time whites got some affirmative action, so to speak (coming from a non-white "foreigner")
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I agree completely with the post. I've long thought and written that the infestor is a bad unit, mostly because of fungal growth, but realistically all of its spells are overpowered and stupid.
As far as the conspiracy that Blizzard made it like this intentionally I think its wrong, I just think Blizzard developers have no clue what they are doing, I think the Red Alert 2 Dustin and the Korean Kim just have no clue what Starcaraft is and how to balance such a game. I find them incompetent, and although your conspiracy is fun and all, the reality is Browder and the balance and development team are just plain and simple incompetent.
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Great post. And quite frankly the community can thank itself for how this matchup got to where it is. The preposterous "Korean Terrans were winning most GSL's so Terran must be OP mindset" is the real genesis of this problem. It was obvious to anyone who decided to think objectively, beyond just championing their particular race, that it was because the better players picked Terran because Terran was harder. But instead it was in fashion around here to rail against terran and cry for Zerg for a solid year.
FWITW --- I was an avid poster and rabid SC2 viewer (bought all tourney passes, IPL passes, etc) from launch till around Apr/May this year, whenever the Queen range buff came on. I haven't really posted SC2 since and I've only purchased one MLG
TvZ was an almost perfect matchup until that point (IMO)... then the Terrans lost the ability to micro hellions or reaper harass until minute 8 or 9. That was always a super interesting, super micro intensive war of attrition where Terran had to multitask and attempt to accumulate just enough tiny delays and annoyances to get into the mid game on equal footing --- which I think is a fun, challenging way to approach the game.
TvZ became boring to me then, I stopped watching... and when I stopped watching I stopped playing.
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This thread is hilarious. The OP is fantastic and makes a lot of good points, most importantly the fact that any ZvX matchup is boring as fuck, and TvP in SC2 has never been all that cool to begin with (hard counters only pls). The conspiracy theories are a nice touch too
+ Show Spoiler [PS] +The commenters that are legitimately offended and salty by this thread make it even more hilarious
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Sanya12364 Posts
On December 06 2012 22:08 Fjodorov wrote:
Dunno which part is worse, people competing over who "gets it" more, or the fact that alot of the stuff in the OP is true.
I, for one, would proudly stand apart from the "it getters" and mingle with the obtuse faction.
Truth be told, I haven't followed SC2 for about a year. I don't get it at all and ignorance sounds like a wonderful bliss.
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Northern Ireland26421 Posts
On December 06 2012 10:25 MrCon wrote:
All those zergs in this thread that try to convince themselves that all of this is not true xD
Still haven't seen a post trying to refute any actual point of the article tho. (ho yes, there is some people that try to say that the "white theory" is dumb so certainly all the facts of the op are false).
Everyone who still watches sc2 knows all of this to be very accurate, except some zergs that still prefer to see their race winning than to play a good game.
The worse in all of this is that people still cry about losing to 4 hellions before queen patch, explaining they don't want it to be reverted because of that, forgetting that you only lost against 4 hellions if you were terribly greedy. But being greedy without possible consequence is a divine right of zergs players brainwashed by 2 years of Idra qq I guess. wE wAnT mAcRo gAmEz so let's be patched until we can macro without unit in 100% of the games ! People who still defend the queen patch is why we can't have nice things, or perhaps they weren't around when sc2 was actually enjoyable to watch, or perhaps they don't care as long as they see foreigner zergs winning vs korean terrans at every lan. This is payback for all those months of imba terrans beating zerg, am I right. This is deserved. And lets forget that 50/50, for most zergs, is when the matchup was "terribly imbalanced". Like Antiga nowadays ! That freaking 50/50 terran map.
Yeah Antiga is apparently still really T favoured, but say, Daybreak is only 'slightly' Zerg favoured lol
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Dumb as biased balance post of the kind that I *thought* was not allowed on TL with 65 pages of whine comments. This does not help.
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dude you had an interesting read then made into trucking racism
dickhead
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 07 2012 05:54 MrTortoise wrote:
dude you had an interesting read then made into trucking racism
dickhead
Racism? Grow up already. This world aren't so black & white. EDIT: No pun intended.
On the topic: Brilliant write, enjoyed every moment of reading it.
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On December 07 2012 03:34 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 00:26 Benjamin99 wrote:On December 06 2012 23:38 Hider wrote:On December 06 2012 23:32 Djagulingu wrote:
Terran was complained imbalanced for centuries and there were no articles about it. Then all of a sudden Zergs come out of nowhere and hello lings of liberty. The big myth. Terran wasn't imbalanced really. Sure Gomtvt existed but terran is the most played race so an overreprsentation is natural. If terran isn't overrepresented then you know the game is imbalanced. Also why Gomtv was going on, every single foreign terran player was losing left and right. So while the game was balanced at the top level in Korea, it was much more difficult for foreign terran players to win than for protoss and zerg players. Since the zerg patch, even Korean terran players are losing as well, and it has just got even worse since the patch. CLose to 1/3 of zerg master league players doesn't deserve to be in masters (assuming the average zerg player is of equal skill to the average terran player), and this is killing high diamond terrans who are superior to the low master zerg players. But due to imbalances they are having a much more difficult time. Since the game is imbalanced at every level currently (even after the infestor nerf, they it's slightly better), it's only rational that terran players are whining. You do realise at some point we had 20+ Terran in code S?. Its twice as many as as the zerg race has ever got. Most pros saw the most potential in Terran. Not only was it the race that was closest to it's corresponding broodwar race, it was also the one that provided the most utility from multitask and micro. With old legends such as boxer and nada taking up terran, many players started playing terran. The fact that terran required the least transition from broodwar and at the time attracted best talent meant that they were going to dominate early GOM.
Really, did you survey all of these Korean's to figure that out? Where's your source? Oh.
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All this zerg imba talk just letting protoss slide under the radar and collect money. top50 this year in winnings 17/50 protoss, 19/50 zerg top10 5/10 protoss, 4/10 zerg top20 8/20 protoss, 7/20 zerg
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On December 07 2012 06:11 thuracine wrote:
All this zerg imba talk just letting protoss slide under the radar and collect money. top50 this year in winnings 17/50 protoss, 19/50 zerg top10 5/10 protoss, 4/10 zerg top20 8/20 protoss, 7/20 zerg
Well toss is the only race with a chance to win lategame vs zerg (lucky vortex + archon toilet) and immortal all-in/similar timings. If I were to guess, those two are the only reason why zerg aren't completely dominating the entire scene.
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Allow me to rant a little bit:
Okay, I have read the article for a second time now and it still leaves behind a bitter taste in my mouth. It's obvious that sc2 has huge flaws in its game design, but narrowing them down to one thing (fungal) seems to be too simplifying to me. It's obvious that something is wrong with zerg in WoL right now, not just considering the pure win rates, but also in regards to general aspects of gameplay. But stating that the game is broken in some form is one thing - saying that blizzard broke the game on purpose to guarantee higher foreign viewership numbers is another one. The whole BL/infestor turtle meta game shift didn't happen over night, and I highly doubt that Blizzard knew what they really were doing when they changed the infestor back in 2011.
I absolutely agree that zerg can't stay the way it is now, and the upcoming HotS patch might be a step into the right direction. The whole patch-zerg debate has been very tiring, actually it had become almost impossible to read a LR thread without meeting stuff like "zerg op" on every page, even if there were games where the zerg simply outplayed his opponent. (and there have been enough games where zerg didn't win because of a broken lategame or a dumb spell.)
I dislike this whole atmosphere of "imba imba imba", I actually hated it when T was supposed to be OP during the GomTvT era (and how everyone was crying for nerfs), basically I just can't get behind the constant shitstorm of "xy is imba, the game sucks, let's switch to minesweeper instead". Why isn't it possible to discuss an issue based on solid arguments without falling back into childish patterns of behavior? (Well, of course I know the answer, as we're on the internet, but still...)
The article is very well written and I think that Ver's actually making some solid points, as he is also showing some valid data (which might be inflated by outstanding performances of players like Stephano). ZvT has been broken for quite some time, and I think most of us (even the zerg players) will agree on that. The conspiracy theory part of the article is unnecessary, in my opinion it's actually damaging the whole article.
TLDR: don't think blizzard broke the game on purpose, dislike the whole way the community is handling imbalance debates.
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EPT
