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Northern Ireland23763 Posts
On December 02 2012 09:52 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 09:44 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 02 2012 09:31 tuho12345 wrote:
how about bring back the old Ghost to deal with BL/infestors? I feel that the nerf was premature, because Zergs weren't given a chance to try and figure it out. However as a composition, ghostmech v Z is kind of a similar 'god' level composition to BL/Infestor. It's harder to transition to perhaps, but it is very catch-all. @Lavalava. Agreed with the concept, however you don't have to apply it to all units or none I guess, but you could selectively apply it. Banelings - Low HP and crucial importance in reactively dealing with means that I think baneling morphs giving them full HP is kind of fair. Overseers- Would also make them return to 100% HP. I mean it's rare that people saving their ovies by exploiting this mechanic ever happens, in the way that changes a battle or something. However I think it's kind of a cool dynamic that you could save an overlord by morphing it, say when you're scouting and facing a couple of marines. There's a cool kind of expense vs scouting importance decision to be made for a little thing like that, and I like that subtelty. Infested Terrans- Because they tend to be spammed on top of things like Nexi, with the ability to snipe a Nexus even if you have defensive forces in position, and that's due in part to the fact they spawn with full HP. I'd remove it here, 100%. It rewards mindless play, but wouldn't affect the intelligent uses of IT. For example using eggs to buff/force splash on tanks is a cool mechanic, but not really linked to the HP/regen issue. It would still be possible. Broodlords- Would remove their ability to regen to 100% health from a corruptor cocoon. Broods are easy enough to transition to, so at the very least they should require careful thought about where and when to morph. It would also open other decisions up to the Zerg, for example if he had a lot of low HP corruptors, it would be good play to bring Queens up to tranfuse them with Queens before morphing to broods, in some situations. b/c back in the day Zerg didn't know how to use infestor properly like now. May be now infestor can be used to FG and trap ghost. Or if Ghost's snipe range is too far, they could nerf it a bit then I wouldn't mind. Now beside reapers, ghost is the second most useless units in TvZ. Which is not fair consider how Zerg can use almost every single unit except hydras that they have.
That's got nothing to do with Ghosts though, or Zergs refining Infestor play. It's a combination of how those units interact, but also is influenced by the Queen patch change altering the timings that Infestors became available, and thus the numbers of them that became subsequently possible to obtain.
Terran unit design is actually pretty good overall. I agree with the problem of Ghosts and Reapers going from being (arguably) too good, to being borderline useless, or situational due to patch changes.
However, there's no reason why every unit has to be able to be employed in every matchup. Protoss air is a tech that is close to impossible to employ in WoL as a standard playstyle in PvT.
Even in BW, which is regarded as being a great E-sport, had compositions and units that didn't necessarily apply to each of their race's matchups equally.
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On December 01 2012 12:44 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 12:19 Xapti wrote:
- Ultralisks are rather slow, and do terrible damage vs light/non-armored, yet are very vulnerable to nearly all armored units since they are ranged units which deal bonus damage to [armored] ultralisks. [spread] siege tanks counter ultralisks in SC2 which is just ridiculous. What? Sieged Tanks are rather horrible against Ultralisks, Marauders (for biomech) or Thors (for mech) are the real damage dealers against them. Ultralisks are fine against Terran. (And 2.95/3.84 movespeed isn't slow at all, don't know what you're talking about.) They're not SLOW units, but rather not adequately fast, and in more than one way.
Ultralisks are comparatively slow vs marines and marauders that can stim and are ranged, zealots that can charge, and stalkers that can blink and are ranged. The issue isn't just their speed, but that they're melee, as well as they're not FAST movement, as well as that their attack is slow. At one point an ultralisk could not damage a retreating spore/spinecrawler OFF CREEP (without having to manually move and target it); I think that issue was somewhat fixed, but it still exists to a lesser degree with units faster than a crawler.
Ultralisks will get annihilated by siege tanks which are spread out. This is due to siege tanks' range, as well as their damage vs armored units. If you don't believe me test it out yourself. I'm not talking about like 4 siege tanks, but rather at least a good 14 or something; the more you have the better the results (I don't remember specifically what point was equalized). A late game unit should not function in a way where it is so limited in use due to bottleneck and speed/range/surface-area issues, because that's the largest factor(s) that makes up the late game.
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On December 02 2012 14:48 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 12:44 TheDwf wrote:On December 01 2012 12:19 Xapti wrote:
- Ultralisks are rather slow, and do terrible damage vs light/non-armored, yet are very vulnerable to nearly all armored units since they are ranged units which deal bonus damage to [armored] ultralisks. [spread] siege tanks counter ultralisks in SC2 which is just ridiculous. What? Sieged Tanks are rather horrible against Ultralisks, Marauders (for biomech) or Thors (for mech) are the real damage dealers against them. Ultralisks are fine against Terran. (And 2.95/3.84 movespeed isn't slow at all, don't know what you're talking about.) They're not SLOW units, but rather not adequately fast, and in more than one way. Ultralisks are comparatively slow vs marines and marauders that can stim and are ranged, zealots that can charge, and stalkers that can blink and are ranged. The issue isn't just their speed, but that they're melee, as well as they're not FAST movement, as well as that their attack is slow. At one point an ultralisk could not damage a retreating spore/spinecrawler OFF CREEP (without having to manually move and target it); I think that issue was somewhat fixed, but it still exists to a lesser degree with units faster than a crawler. Ultralisks will get annihilated by siege tanks which are spread out. This is due to siege tanks' range, as well as their damage vs armored units. If you don't believe me test it out yourself. I'm not talking about like 4 siege tanks, but rather at least a good 14 or something; the more you have the better the results (I don't remember specifically what point was equalized). A late game unit should not function in a way where it is so limited in use due to bottleneck and speed/range/surface-area issues, because that's the largest factor(s) that makes up the late game.
if 14 tanks are sieged across an area offensively obviously you can just counter and kill a base or two with ultras. although pushing through 14 tanks is also possible with transfuse lolz, if they don't have marauders
then just make a few brood lords cause zerg is banking mad $.$
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Northern Ireland23763 Posts
On December 02 2012 15:15 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 14:48 Xapti wrote:On December 01 2012 12:44 TheDwf wrote:On December 01 2012 12:19 Xapti wrote:
- Ultralisks are rather slow, and do terrible damage vs light/non-armored, yet are very vulnerable to nearly all armored units since they are ranged units which deal bonus damage to [armored] ultralisks. [spread] siege tanks counter ultralisks in SC2 which is just ridiculous. What? Sieged Tanks are rather horrible against Ultralisks, Marauders (for biomech) or Thors (for mech) are the real damage dealers against them. Ultralisks are fine against Terran. (And 2.95/3.84 movespeed isn't slow at all, don't know what you're talking about.) They're not SLOW units, but rather not adequately fast, and in more than one way. Ultralisks are comparatively slow vs marines and marauders that can stim and are ranged, zealots that can charge, and stalkers that can blink and are ranged. The issue isn't just their speed, but that they're melee, as well as they're not FAST movement, as well as that their attack is slow. At one point an ultralisk could not damage a retreating spore/spinecrawler OFF CREEP (without having to manually move and target it); I think that issue was somewhat fixed, but it still exists to a lesser degree with units faster than a crawler. Ultralisks will get annihilated by siege tanks which are spread out. This is due to siege tanks' range, as well as their damage vs armored units. If you don't believe me test it out yourself. I'm not talking about like 4 siege tanks, but rather at least a good 14 or something; the more you have the better the results (I don't remember specifically what point was equalized). A late game unit should not function in a way where it is so limited in use due to bottleneck and speed/range/surface-area issues, because that's the largest factor(s) that makes up the late game. if 14 tanks are sieged across an area offensively obviously you can just counter and kill a base or two with ultras. although pushing through 14 tanks is also possible with transfuse lolz, if they don't have marauders then just make a few brood lords cause zerg is banking mad $.$
Kawaii, as someone I vividly remember being the first/one of the first vocal pros in the test map thread for the Queen/OL change, in opposing that change.
Considering you were right in that instance, how would you go about fixing the matchup of TvZ right now, if indeed you think it needs fixed?
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On December 02 2012 15:18 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 15:15 KawaiiRice wrote:On December 02 2012 14:48 Xapti wrote:On December 01 2012 12:44 TheDwf wrote:On December 01 2012 12:19 Xapti wrote:
- Ultralisks are rather slow, and do terrible damage vs light/non-armored, yet are very vulnerable to nearly all armored units since they are ranged units which deal bonus damage to [armored] ultralisks. [spread] siege tanks counter ultralisks in SC2 which is just ridiculous. What? Sieged Tanks are rather horrible against Ultralisks, Marauders (for biomech) or Thors (for mech) are the real damage dealers against them. Ultralisks are fine against Terran. (And 2.95/3.84 movespeed isn't slow at all, don't know what you're talking about.) They're not SLOW units, but rather not adequately fast, and in more than one way. Ultralisks are comparatively slow vs marines and marauders that can stim and are ranged, zealots that can charge, and stalkers that can blink and are ranged. The issue isn't just their speed, but that they're melee, as well as they're not FAST movement, as well as that their attack is slow. At one point an ultralisk could not damage a retreating spore/spinecrawler OFF CREEP (without having to manually move and target it); I think that issue was somewhat fixed, but it still exists to a lesser degree with units faster than a crawler. Ultralisks will get annihilated by siege tanks which are spread out. This is due to siege tanks' range, as well as their damage vs armored units. If you don't believe me test it out yourself. I'm not talking about like 4 siege tanks, but rather at least a good 14 or something; the more you have the better the results (I don't remember specifically what point was equalized). A late game unit should not function in a way where it is so limited in use due to bottleneck and speed/range/surface-area issues, because that's the largest factor(s) that makes up the late game. if 14 tanks are sieged across an area offensively obviously you can just counter and kill a base or two with ultras. although pushing through 14 tanks is also possible with transfuse lolz, if they don't have marauders then just make a few brood lords cause zerg is banking mad $.$ Kawaii, as someone I vividly remember being the first/one of the first vocal pros in the test map thread for the Queen/OL change, in opposing that change. Considering you were right in that instance, how would you go about fixing the matchup of TvZ right now, if indeed you think it needs fixed?
the synergy between bl and infestor is way too strong, vikings need to somehow be better against corruptors (right now vikings that get fungaled are instantly screwed doing basically no damage especially with queens out).
fungal needs some change that lets terran micro against it (like dodging/spreading units against HSM) compared to instant hit which is a joke.
bls need to cost more supply/infested terran needs to cost more energy, and bls should fire less broodlings or cost money like interceptors (you can see in ZvP when stalkers blink right under bls half the time they still die because of broodlings spawning). the free units are too strong.
need more maps that aren't awful like daybreak also, it has a worse TvZ winrate in international TLPD than metropolis (thanks in part to MVP beating foreigners)
I'm not a game designer so my answer is probably not the best but anyone that thinks Blizzard knows any better (which used to be a common argument) is obviously wrong right now
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On December 02 2012 15:33 KawaiiRice wrote:
fungal needs some change that lets terran micro against it (like dodging/spreading units against HSM) compared to instant hit which is a joke.
weren't they going to put that into hots or something to test it out (have they anyways? zz)
I'm not a game designer so my answer is probably not the best but anyone that thinks Blizzard knows any better (which used to be a common argument) is obviously wrong right now
a lot of them use that argument still.. >_<
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Why can't Blizzard just give Queens 3 range again? There, easiest fix ever. Man up and admit their mistake, seriously.
Doesn't address the boringness of Infestors directly but that can be handled in HotS.
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On December 02 2012 06:23 tMomiji wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 06:13 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:
I really feel like they should just scrap the infestor in HotS. I'm a Zerg, so I get how important they are to the zerg game and the extent to which that removal would break the game. But they are just so damn boring, they are really killing ZvX matchups. I don't care about balance, they just aren't fun to watch or play with in their current state. Just get rid of them and then rebalance accordingly. Oh, and get rid of colawlossus as well while we're at it :p Hey, as a Protoss I won't complain if they get rid of the colossus. ...As long as they give us back the Reaver. I want the Reaver! ...Roar.
Yeah. I made a post about this before but the Reaver was really good. Reaver is a fairly simple but unique RTS unit.
Scarabs were somewhat random but you can aim the scarabs to an extent by picking which units you think will cause the most damage.
Reaver + Shuttle micro was also amazing and fun to watch and play.
Finally, reavers weren't death ball-y at all.
Bring back the Reaver, give them the hold fire and weapons free abilities (disable/enable auto attack; this ability is on the ghost).
And the game will be fixed because the best unit ever is back!
Edit to clarify more - The reaver was a micro intensive and fun unit to play and play against (unlike the colossus).
Against Reaver, you try to spread out and move your units. The scarabs are like hunter seeker missiles (except much faster but it can be blocked by unit pathing).
As someone who uses reaver, you shuttle micro, try to aim for unit that may get cause the most splash damage, etc.
Reaver was fun to play with and against. Also it added micro to both sides (not just one side).
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Northern Ireland23763 Posts
On December 02 2012 15:33 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 15:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 02 2012 15:15 KawaiiRice wrote:On December 02 2012 14:48 Xapti wrote:On December 01 2012 12:44 TheDwf wrote:On December 01 2012 12:19 Xapti wrote:
- Ultralisks are rather slow, and do terrible damage vs light/non-armored, yet are very vulnerable to nearly all armored units since they are ranged units which deal bonus damage to [armored] ultralisks. [spread] siege tanks counter ultralisks in SC2 which is just ridiculous. What? Sieged Tanks are rather horrible against Ultralisks, Marauders (for biomech) or Thors (for mech) are the real damage dealers against them. Ultralisks are fine against Terran. (And 2.95/3.84 movespeed isn't slow at all, don't know what you're talking about.) They're not SLOW units, but rather not adequately fast, and in more than one way. Ultralisks are comparatively slow vs marines and marauders that can stim and are ranged, zealots that can charge, and stalkers that can blink and are ranged. The issue isn't just their speed, but that they're melee, as well as they're not FAST movement, as well as that their attack is slow. At one point an ultralisk could not damage a retreating spore/spinecrawler OFF CREEP (without having to manually move and target it); I think that issue was somewhat fixed, but it still exists to a lesser degree with units faster than a crawler. Ultralisks will get annihilated by siege tanks which are spread out. This is due to siege tanks' range, as well as their damage vs armored units. If you don't believe me test it out yourself. I'm not talking about like 4 siege tanks, but rather at least a good 14 or something; the more you have the better the results (I don't remember specifically what point was equalized). A late game unit should not function in a way where it is so limited in use due to bottleneck and speed/range/surface-area issues, because that's the largest factor(s) that makes up the late game. if 14 tanks are sieged across an area offensively obviously you can just counter and kill a base or two with ultras. although pushing through 14 tanks is also possible with transfuse lolz, if they don't have marauders then just make a few brood lords cause zerg is banking mad $.$ Kawaii, as someone I vividly remember being the first/one of the first vocal pros in the test map thread for the Queen/OL change, in opposing that change. Considering you were right in that instance, how would you go about fixing the matchup of TvZ right now, if indeed you think it needs fixed? the synergy between bl and infestor is way too strong, vikings need to somehow be better against corruptors (right now vikings that get fungaled are instantly screwed doing basically no damage especially with queens out). fungal needs some change that lets terran micro against it (like dodging/spreading units against HSM) compared to instant hit which is a joke. bls need to cost more supply/infested terran needs to cost more energy, and bls should fire less broodlings or cost money like interceptors (you can see in ZvP when stalkers blink right under bls half the time they still die because of broodlings spawning). the free units are too strong. need more maps that aren't awful like daybreak also, it has a worse TvZ winrate in international TLPD than metropolis (thanks in part to MVP beating foreigners) I'm not a game designer so my answer is probably not the best but anyone that thinks Blizzard knows any better (which used to be a common argument) is obviously wrong right now
How do you feel about approaching it from another way? (I do feel that say, the Infestor in terms of overall utility needs fixed btw)
All these compositions aren't inherently broken, there are compositional counters there for T. (Not for P really, mind) The problem is that the Queen patch/Zerg refinement of infestor control etc, enabled what used to be suicidally greedy, to be safe. Everything shifts in this instance. Previously safe becomes an overly safe build etc etc.
All Zergs tech is being made earlier and earlier, because their economy kicks in earlier due to this shift, and everything stems from that.
I would propose some kind of small change to larva to slow this down. Maybe not nerf it, but say create more difference between say, perfect injects and competent injecting. Or nerf it full stop in some way to require more useage of macro hatches over and above relying on how good inject is?
Injects are enabling Zergs to do ridiculous things. Well not ridiculous, but fearsome. I kid you not, I saw Hyun in a game vs Parting on Fightclub have:
A maxed army base on roaches that was pressuring Parting's 3rd really hard.
He had infestors up behind this.
He had already started banking,
5 hatchess had been taken,the 5th was only for the gas geysers.
Hive tech was on its way, if not finished, as was a spire.
Think all of this was in the 13-14th minute? Not sure of the exact timing, it was the game on Metropolis in the Parting/Hyun fightclub showdown.
Not other race, even with no pressure exerted and complete freedom could match those kind of benchmarks, I don't really think.
Hyun's phenomenal, but this is an example of a macro machine showcasing what is theoretically doable with Zergs.
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On December 02 2012 15:38 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 15:33 KawaiiRice wrote:
fungal needs some change that lets terran micro against it (like dodging/spreading units against HSM) compared to instant hit which is a joke.
weren't they going to put that into hots or something to test it out (have they anyways? zz) Show nested quote +I'm not a game designer so my answer is probably not the best but anyone that thinks Blizzard knows any better (which used to be a common argument) is obviously wrong right now a lot of them use that argument still.. >_<
Vikings ARENT PSIONIC ... and making psionic units immune was only marginally better than the useless changes they did on this round of "balance testing".
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On December 02 2012 15:41 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 06:23 tMomiji wrote:On December 02 2012 06:13 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:
I really feel like they should just scrap the infestor in HotS. I'm a Zerg, so I get how important they are to the zerg game and the extent to which that removal would break the game. But they are just so damn boring, they are really killing ZvX matchups. I don't care about balance, they just aren't fun to watch or play with in their current state. Just get rid of them and then rebalance accordingly. Oh, and get rid of colawlossus as well while we're at it :p Hey, as a Protoss I won't complain if they get rid of the colossus. ...As long as they give us back the Reaver. I want the Reaver! ...Roar. Yeah. I made a post about this before but the Reaver was really good. Reaver is a fairly simple but unique RTS unit. Scarabs were somewhat random but you can aim the scarabs to an extent by picking which units you think will cause the most damage. Reaver + Shuttle micro was also amazing and fun to watch and play. Finally, reavers weren't death ball-y at all. Bring back the Reaver, give them the hold fire and weapons free abilities (disable/enable auto attack; this ability is on the ghost). And the game will be fixed because the best unit ever is back! Edit to clarify more - The reaver was a micro intensive and fun unit to play and play against (unlike the colossus). Against Reaver, you try to spread out and move your units. The scarabs are like hunter seeker missiles (except much faster but it can be blocked by unit pathing). As someone who uses reaver, you shuttle micro, try to aim for unit that may get cause the most splash damage, etc. Reaver was fun to play with and against. Also it added micro to both sides (not just one side).
Reavers in SC2 would be absolutely imba. Imagine a scarab moving with SC2 pathing? Reavers were good in SC:BW because they did ridiculous damage but had also ridiculous chances of hiting anything in the hands of a scrub.
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On December 02 2012 15:49 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 15:38 zhurai wrote:On December 02 2012 15:33 KawaiiRice wrote:
fungal needs some change that lets terran micro against it (like dodging/spreading units against HSM) compared to instant hit which is a joke.
weren't they going to put that into hots or something to test it out (have they anyways? zz) I'm not a game designer so my answer is probably not the best but anyone that thinks Blizzard knows any better (which used to be a common argument) is obviously wrong right now a lot of them use that argument still.. >_< Vikings ARENT PSIONIC ... and making psionic units immune was only marginally better than the useless changes they did on this round of "balance testing".
um
where exactly did I say they were psionic
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On December 02 2012 15:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
How do you feel about approaching it from another way? (I do feel that say, the Infestor in terms of overall utility needs fixed btw)
What way?
All these compositions aren't inherently broken, there are compositional counters there for T. (Not for P really, mind) The problem is that the Queen patch/Zerg refinement of infestor control etc, enabled what used to be suicidally greedy, to be safe. Everything shifts in this instance. Previously safe becomes an overly safe build etc etc.
when a terran makes like 16+ vikings 6+ ravens vs bls and manages to win thanks to zerg screwing up and letting HSMs land on clumps, zerg still has a chance to win if they remax ultra ling bling because of all the supply not in marauders/thors. terran (and protoss) doesn't have the ability to change army compositions like that, and T's most stable unit equivalent to the infestor is... the marine lol, which isn't useful vs hive units unless bls have no support somehow.
All Zergs tech is being made earlier and earlier, because their economy kicks in earlier due to this shift, and everything stems from that.
the problem with zerg comes with a combination of many things such as zerg production being too flexible and too strong, scouting being too good, creep being too good (vision, speed boost, forces scans and slows down pushes? And it only costs you energy and APM? LOL), you can kill 20 drones with hellions and be EVEN on workers. the way it works in TvT when you kill 20 workers is you should be AHEAD 20 workers, no?
I would propose some kind of small change to larva to slow this down. Maybe not nerf it, but say create more difference between say, perfect injects and competent injecting. Or nerf it full stop in some way to require more useage of macro hatches over and above relying on how good inject is?
Injects are enabling Zergs to do ridiculous things. Well not ridiculous, but fearsome. I kid you not, I saw Hyun in a game vs Parting on Fightclub have:
A maxed army base on roaches that was pressuring Parting's 3rd really hard.
He had infestors up behind this.
He had already started banking,
5 hatchess had been taken,the 5th was only for the gas geysers.
Hive tech was on its way, if not finished, as was a spire.
Think all of this was in the 13-14th minute? Not sure of the exact timing, it was the game on Metropolis in the Parting/Hyun fightclub showdown.
Not other race, even with no pressure exerted and complete freedom could match those kind of benchmarks, I don't really think.
Hyun's phenomenal, but this is an example of a macro machine showcasing what is theoretically doable with Zergs.
if late game zerg wasn't so stupidly good T and P wouldn't be forced to do something before broodlords came out. We wouldn't be forced to pressure and trade before brood lords came out. some zergs know this and even aim to max out and break T 2-2 pushes (getting pretty common now). if late game z isn't addressed then something needs to be done about early-mid game Z production (which would be much harder to balance and a super bad idea overall)
also yeah you're right that no other race can outproduce zerg with no pressure, etc.. that's how zerg should work, as a swarm. but it was supposed to have more units that were weaker, not an invincible death army that constantly makes free units. instead it has both. so Z can theoretically hold any pressure or allins with scouting or play greedy enough to use their sick hive units in mid/late game.
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I think a bit of historical analysis of early WoL can help with the discussion. During the early days of WoL, zerg seemed weak not because the other races were stronger, but mainly because of the horrible maps (steps and delta quadrant etc) that encouraged 1 base or 2 base all ins. The problem was that blizzard then decided to "balance" units based on the results of those maps. The other issue is that it took zergs the better part of 2 years to realize how to use the bl/infestor/corruptor combo properly (ie:don't overmake broodlords, infestors behind bls ). We're now witnessing the full extent of the problem as better maps and a more developed meta game is showing us there are fundamental problems with unit design and cohension which weren't properly tested because of faulty assumptions.
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On December 02 2012 16:57 sths wrote:
I think a bit of historical analysis of early WoL can help with the discussion. During the early days of WoL, zerg seemed weak not because the other races were stronger, but mainly because of the horrible maps (steps and delta quadrant etc) that encouraged 1 base or 2 base all ins. The problem was that blizzard then decided to "balance" units based on the results of those maps. The other issue is that it took zergs the better part of 2 years to realize how to use the bl/infestor/corruptor combo properly (ie:don't overmake broodlords, infestors behind bls ). We're now witnessing the full extent of the problem as better maps and a more developed meta game is showing us there are fundamental problems with unit design and cohension which weren't properly tested because of faulty assumptions.
Absolutely. There is a thread on balancing maps based on traits of each races. It seems very promising. I just hope Blizzard hasn't 'balanced' the fuck out of SC2.
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On December 02 2012 17:00 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 16:57 sths wrote:
I think a bit of historical analysis of early WoL can help with the discussion. During the early days of WoL, zerg seemed weak not because the other races were stronger, but mainly because of the horrible maps (steps and delta quadrant etc) that encouraged 1 base or 2 base all ins. The problem was that blizzard then decided to "balance" units based on the results of those maps. The other issue is that it took zergs the better part of 2 years to realize how to use the bl/infestor/corruptor combo properly (ie:don't overmake broodlords, infestors behind bls ). We're now witnessing the full extent of the problem as better maps and a more developed meta game is showing us there are fundamental problems with unit design and cohension which weren't properly tested because of faulty assumptions. Absolutely. There is a thread on balancing maps based on traits of each races. It seems very promising. I just hope Blizzard hasn't 'balanced' the fuck out of SC2.
not just that, the game was new, so you didn't know how many units you needed to hold off pushes (along with the maps being fucking small)
also everyone's mechanics sucked in terms of injects too
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On December 02 2012 15:47 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 15:33 KawaiiRice wrote:On December 02 2012 15:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 02 2012 15:15 KawaiiRice wrote:On December 02 2012 14:48 Xapti wrote:On December 01 2012 12:44 TheDwf wrote:On December 01 2012 12:19 Xapti wrote:
- Ultralisks are rather slow, and do terrible damage vs light/non-armored, yet are very vulnerable to nearly all armored units since they are ranged units which deal bonus damage to [armored] ultralisks. [spread] siege tanks counter ultralisks in SC2 which is just ridiculous. What? Sieged Tanks are rather horrible against Ultralisks, Marauders (for biomech) or Thors (for mech) are the real damage dealers against them. Ultralisks are fine against Terran. (And 2.95/3.84 movespeed isn't slow at all, don't know what you're talking about.) They're not SLOW units, but rather not adequately fast, and in more than one way. Ultralisks are comparatively slow vs marines and marauders that can stim and are ranged, zealots that can charge, and stalkers that can blink and are ranged. The issue isn't just their speed, but that they're melee, as well as they're not FAST movement, as well as that their attack is slow. At one point an ultralisk could not damage a retreating spore/spinecrawler OFF CREEP (without having to manually move and target it); I think that issue was somewhat fixed, but it still exists to a lesser degree with units faster than a crawler. Ultralisks will get annihilated by siege tanks which are spread out. This is due to siege tanks' range, as well as their damage vs armored units. If you don't believe me test it out yourself. I'm not talking about like 4 siege tanks, but rather at least a good 14 or something; the more you have the better the results (I don't remember specifically what point was equalized). A late game unit should not function in a way where it is so limited in use due to bottleneck and speed/range/surface-area issues, because that's the largest factor(s) that makes up the late game. if 14 tanks are sieged across an area offensively obviously you can just counter and kill a base or two with ultras. although pushing through 14 tanks is also possible with transfuse lolz, if they don't have marauders then just make a few brood lords cause zerg is banking mad $.$ Kawaii, as someone I vividly remember being the first/one of the first vocal pros in the test map thread for the Queen/OL change, in opposing that change. Considering you were right in that instance, how would you go about fixing the matchup of TvZ right now, if indeed you think it needs fixed? the synergy between bl and infestor is way too strong, vikings need to somehow be better against corruptors (right now vikings that get fungaled are instantly screwed doing basically no damage especially with queens out). fungal needs some change that lets terran micro against it (like dodging/spreading units against HSM) compared to instant hit which is a joke. bls need to cost more supply/infested terran needs to cost more energy, and bls should fire less broodlings or cost money like interceptors (you can see in ZvP when stalkers blink right under bls half the time they still die because of broodlings spawning). the free units are too strong. need more maps that aren't awful like daybreak also, it has a worse TvZ winrate in international TLPD than metropolis (thanks in part to MVP beating foreigners) I'm not a game designer so my answer is probably not the best but anyone that thinks Blizzard knows any better (which used to be a common argument) is obviously wrong right now How do you feel about approaching it from another way? (I do feel that say, the Infestor in terms of overall utility needs fixed btw) All these compositions aren't inherently broken, there are compositional counters there for T. (Not for P really, mind) The problem is that the Queen patch/Zerg refinement of infestor control etc, enabled what used to be suicidally greedy, to be safe. Everything shifts in this instance. Previously safe becomes an overly safe build etc etc. All Zergs tech is being made earlier and earlier, because their economy kicks in earlier due to this shift, and everything stems from that. I would propose some kind of small change to larva to slow this down. Maybe not nerf it, but say create more difference between say, perfect injects and competent injecting. Or nerf it full stop in some way to require more useage of macro hatches over and above relying on how good inject is? Injects are enabling Zergs to do ridiculous things. Well not ridiculous, but fearsome. I kid you not, I saw Hyun in a game vs Parting on Fightclub have: A maxed army base on roaches that was pressuring Parting's 3rd really hard. He had infestors up behind this. He had already started banking, 5 hatchess had been taken,the 5th was only for the gas geysers. Hive tech was on its way, if not finished, as was a spire. Think all of this was in the 13-14th minute? Not sure of the exact timing, it was the game on Metropolis in the Parting/Hyun fightclub showdown. Not other race, even with no pressure exerted and complete freedom could match those kind of benchmarks, I don't really think. Hyun's phenomenal, but this is an example of a macro machine showcasing what is theoretically doable with Zergs.
I don't think Blizzard would do this though. The queen patch pretty much started this 'shift,' and they are seemingly unwilling entirely to touch the zerg's ability to ramp their macro unpressured. It's almost like they've planted their flag that Zerg must have 3 bases b-lining straight to their lategame, and the game must be balanced around that truism. It's probably going to be an infestor nerf no matter what.
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On December 02 2012 16:11 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 15:49 Rabiator wrote:On December 02 2012 15:38 zhurai wrote:On December 02 2012 15:33 KawaiiRice wrote:
fungal needs some change that lets terran micro against it (like dodging/spreading units against HSM) compared to instant hit which is a joke.
weren't they going to put that into hots or something to test it out (have they anyways? zz) I'm not a game designer so my answer is probably not the best but anyone that thinks Blizzard knows any better (which used to be a common argument) is obviously wrong right now a lot of them use that argument still.. >_< Vikings ARENT PSIONIC ... and making psionic units immune was only marginally better than the useless changes they did on this round of "balance testing". um where exactly did I say they were psionic
I just pointed out that Vikings were not affected by the change that Blizzard had tried in their first "call to action" test ... which wouldnt change anything for them in regard to Fungal. I just wanted to point out that the change they tried was totally ridiculous ...
So far they DIDNT try to put in anything that lets people micro against it. They just added another "automatism" in making some units totally immune and other still affected fully. When will they learn?
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On December 02 2012 09:04 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 09:01 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
If you Damage the IT egg, you damage the IT when it spawns right? No, all morphing zerg units start at full HP regardless of how much health their cocoon had when they hatched.
This isn't true in the case of Infested Terrans. They spawn with health proportional to the egg's health, unless the map editor is lying to me.
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On December 02 2012 15:40 Hall0wed wrote:
Why can't Blizzard just give Queens 3 range again? There, easiest fix ever. Man up and admit their mistake, seriously.
Doesn't address the boringness of Infestors directly but that can be handled in HotS.
The buff to queens really improved this game honestly, it really really did.
They just need to adjust the other strong parts of zerg since they made them almost immune to early game aggression which was the only way terran competed with them
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EPT
