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Call to Action #2: November 30 Balance Testing - Page 40

Forum Index > SC2 General
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convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-01 19:23:22
December 01 2012 19:23 GMT
#781
I really wish Blizzard would explain what statistics they have that show the game is balanced at the highest level. I feel like it is almost unanimous that zerg is OP at this point. Almost every major tournaments where all three races have top tier players is zerg dominant. GSL was has been becoming more zerg dominant, IPL 5 is massively zerg dominant, MLG was pretty zerg dominant (BWC definitely doesn't count because there were no high-skilled zergs in attendance).

IT egg reduced by 20hp is not going to rebalance the game. I think reverting the queen buff could help with TvZ, but PvZ would still be an issue. Protoss could be helped with a 25hp reduction in IT egg (not sure how they went to 80hp, since they still take the same amount of tank shots and the same number of storms), but I'm not sure if that is enough. It would be a good start to help the other races a little bit. I think one other change that would be very good for the game is to have BLs/ITs/Overseers/banelings not get 100% HP regen upon hatching. It makes it really challenging to know if you can snipe off morphing BLs or if you will mostly damage them only to have them have full HP instantly.
Berailfor
Profile Joined January 2012
441 Posts
December 01 2012 20:03 GMT
#782
Most horrible balance change I've ever seen. At least fungal change actually made the game different. This egg change LITERALLY does nothing. Still 2 tank shots. And only other time where IT spam is even good is against vortex where nothing can hit the eggs anyway.... Any other scenario you deserve to die if IT spam kills you considering how good colossus/HT deal with them, or any standard T units. So pretty much this is a pointless change that might have an impact on 1/100000 games. And as far as statistics go. I hate how they are balancing based on statistics, and somehow I REALLY doubt that these statistics involve game length, or game strategy.

Something needs a change for the infestor, but not this. This was the most pathetic attempt at balancing I've seen blizz do so far. And they've done a lot of crap balancing already...
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
December 01 2012 20:36 GMT
#783
Zerg will remain stronger than they should be I fear. We keep seeing Zergs squash Protoss/Terran opponents and finals keep on becoming ZvZ or ZvZvZvZ semi-finals. At what point do we have to ask ourselves if the balance changes are even working and is there a more serious problem?

I'm really upset with these balance changes, which essentially do nothing. Ravens still must accumulate the 150 requisite energy for SM and all this does is save 150/150 from the late game. Did Zergs ever have to research fungal/infested terrans? No, their most useful abilities are free. Whereas the Raven essentially has limited utility outside of a timing attack in the late game w/o SM. The egg change does nothing as it will still take tanks 2 shots to kill eggs. I just don;t understand Blizzard..
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
TJ31
Profile Joined October 2012
630 Posts
December 01 2012 20:52 GMT
#784
Lame changes. Still don't see any point of playing anything than 2 base immortal all in ( as a protoss ) vs zerg, at least it's either fast win or a fast loss. And while it works, I think it's just boring to do the same thing in every PvZ, but there's no choice atm. Either that or pray for a nice vortex vs bloodlords.

And I don't think that Seeker Missile change will do anything at all. Mid game there's just no use for ravens.. well, almost no use. And late game it will be insignificant as well, you still can't get enough of ravens fast enough and they die easily vs corruptors and fungal works on them too.
Egg health.. I won't even bother to comment that, everything was said already.

But, I can't say that was unexpected. I just don't see them working hard to balance WoL anymore, HotS coming in 4 months. Want a chance for some better balance? Buy it.
That's what are they thinking probably. Too bad they didn't count those upset people, who won't buy HotS just because they were unhappy with WoL's balance. /conspiracy theory
RDaneelOlivaw
Profile Joined April 2011
Vatican City State733 Posts
December 01 2012 21:13 GMT
#785
I really feel like they should just scrap the infestor in HotS. I'm a Zerg, so I get how important they are to the zerg game and the extent to which that removal would break the game. But they are just so damn boring, they are really killing ZvX matchups. I don't care about balance, they just aren't fun to watch or play with in their current state. Just get rid of them and then rebalance accordingly. Oh, and get rid of colawlossus as well while we're at it :p
tMomiji
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1115 Posts
December 01 2012 21:22 GMT
#786
...

Uh

Really, Blizzard?

...Really?

*Really*?

I wish I could say something constructive but I'm just...at a loss for words. Are they really operating on the same plane of reality as the rest of humanity?
"I wonder if there is a league below copper? If so, I would like to inhabit it." -TotalBiscuit "In the event of a sudden change in cabin pressure, ROOF FLIES OFF!" -George Carlin <3 HerO <3 Kiwikaki <3 MKP
tMomiji
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1115 Posts
December 01 2012 21:23 GMT
#787
On December 02 2012 06:13 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:
I really feel like they should just scrap the infestor in HotS. I'm a Zerg, so I get how important they are to the zerg game and the extent to which that removal would break the game. But they are just so damn boring, they are really killing ZvX matchups. I don't care about balance, they just aren't fun to watch or play with in their current state. Just get rid of them and then rebalance accordingly. Oh, and get rid of colawlossus as well while we're at it :p


Hey, as a Protoss I won't complain if they get rid of the colossus. ...As long as they give us back the Reaver. I want the Reaver!

...Roar.
"I wonder if there is a league below copper? If so, I would like to inhabit it." -TotalBiscuit "In the event of a sudden change in cabin pressure, ROOF FLIES OFF!" -George Carlin <3 HerO <3 Kiwikaki <3 MKP
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
December 01 2012 21:32 GMT
#788
On December 02 2012 06:23 tMomiji wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2012 06:13 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:
I really feel like they should just scrap the infestor in HotS. I'm a Zerg, so I get how important they are to the zerg game and the extent to which that removal would break the game. But they are just so damn boring, they are really killing ZvX matchups. I don't care about balance, they just aren't fun to watch or play with in their current state. Just get rid of them and then rebalance accordingly. Oh, and get rid of colawlossus as well while we're at it :p


Hey, as a Protoss I won't complain if they get rid of the colossus. ...As long as they give us back the Reaver. I want the Reaver!

...Roar.


Reaper <3
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
mrjpark
Profile Joined March 2011
United States276 Posts
December 01 2012 21:48 GMT
#789
Uh, isn't the egg nerf actually a decent nerf? It means one storm will now kill however many eggs are within the radius, while feedbacks are always options in the earlier part of the game to just deal with the infestors themselves.
SuperYo1000
Profile Joined July 2008
United States880 Posts
December 01 2012 21:52 GMT
#790
On December 02 2012 06:48 mrjpark wrote:
Uh, isn't the egg nerf actually a decent nerf? It means one storm will now kill however many eggs are within the radius, while feedbacks are always options in the earlier part of the game to just deal with the infestors themselves.



oh come on please...how many times has this been corrected. One storm WILL NOT kill eggs. Eggs just like every other zerg unit regen life. eggs survive with 1 or 2 hp
WeRRa
Profile Joined December 2010
378 Posts
December 01 2012 22:08 GMT
#791
On December 02 2012 06:48 mrjpark wrote:
Uh, isn't the egg nerf actually a decent nerf? It means one storm will now kill however many eggs are within the radius, while feedbacks are always options in the earlier part of the game to just deal with the infestors themselves.

And this helps terran how? Terran has no decent spellcasters wich deal damage and the change for ravens hardly changes much, if you got ravens you have basicly the same coinflip situation like protoss with the mothership and even if you beat the broodlords, the ultra follow up will still own you.
InnoVation Fighting!!!
Psychlone
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada90 Posts
December 01 2012 22:39 GMT
#792
Why don't they revert the stupid Queen Range already!?!?!?!?

This is truly redonkulous now, trying to balance the game around one retarded patch that started all this horrendousness.

Make the Queen normal again and Reapers will be an option again, Terrans will have time to build Ravens against this boring BL-Infestor Army.

Like others said before, Blizzard MUST know. They're doing this on purpose and it's totally disgusting.
ZealotSensei
Profile Joined September 2011
Denmark70 Posts
December 01 2012 22:44 GMT
#793
This is actually a pretty smart buff, if eggs somehow got higher priority then most other things.

You guys have to remember that you don't want templars to be able to take down eggs on their own, it will kill the infestor's ability to harass with IT''s. That means that you either have to have 1-2 templars and a cannon or a templar and a 2-3 zealots.

Also, remember that you dont "just" storm. You usually have an army. And I believe that if eggs got higher priority by zealots, eggs would melt really really fast in main army engagements.
Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither!
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2120 Posts
December 02 2012 00:01 GMT
#794
If you Damage the IT egg, you damage the IT when it spawns right?
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
SnipedSoul
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2158 Posts
December 02 2012 00:04 GMT
#795
On December 02 2012 09:01 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:
If you Damage the IT egg, you damage the IT when it spawns right?


No, all morphing zerg units start at full HP regardless of how much health their cocoon had when they hatched.
LavaLava
Profile Joined January 2012
United States235 Posts
December 02 2012 00:10 GMT
#796
We should make it so that morphing units like Banes, BLs, Overseers, and IT eggs carry their damage % over to when they spawn. I don't think this will seriously hurt banes, or overseers, but it will help against lazy BL morphs, and Infested Terrans.
tuho12345
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
4482 Posts
December 02 2012 00:31 GMT
#797
how about bring back the old Ghost to deal with BL/infestors?
Scila
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1849 Posts
December 02 2012 00:40 GMT
#798
On December 02 2012 09:31 tuho12345 wrote:
how about bring back the old Ghost to deal with BL/infestors?


But that would mean admitting they were wrong. They won't do that.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25234 Posts
December 02 2012 00:44 GMT
#799
On December 02 2012 09:31 tuho12345 wrote:
how about bring back the old Ghost to deal with BL/infestors?

I feel that the nerf was premature, because Zergs weren't given a chance to try and figure it out. However as a composition, ghostmech v Z is kind of a similar 'god' level composition to BL/Infestor. It's harder to transition to perhaps, but it is very catch-all.

@Lavalava.
Agreed with the concept, however you don't have to apply it to all units or none I guess, but you could selectively apply it.

Banelings - Low HP and crucial importance in reactively dealing with means that I think baneling morphs giving them full HP is kind of fair.

Overseers- Would also make them return to 100% HP. I mean it's rare that people saving their ovies by exploiting this mechanic ever happens, in the way that changes a battle or something. However I think it's kind of a cool dynamic that you could save an overlord by morphing it, say when you're scouting and facing a couple of marines. There's a cool kind of expense vs scouting importance decision to be made for a little thing like that, and I like that subtelty.

Infested Terrans- Because they tend to be spammed on top of things like Nexi, with the ability to snipe a Nexus even if you have defensive forces in position, and that's due in part to the fact they spawn with full HP. I'd remove it here, 100%. It rewards mindless play, but wouldn't affect the intelligent uses of IT. For example using eggs to buff/force splash on tanks is a cool mechanic, but not really linked to the HP/regen issue. It would still be possible.

Broodlords- Would remove their ability to regen to 100% health from a corruptor cocoon. Broods are easy enough to transition to, so at the very least they should require careful thought about where and when to morph. It would also open other decisions up to the Zerg, for example if he had a lot of low HP corruptors, it would be good play to bring Queens up to tranfuse them with Queens before morphing to broods, in some situations.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
tuho12345
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
4482 Posts
December 02 2012 00:52 GMT
#800
On December 02 2012 09:44 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2012 09:31 tuho12345 wrote:
how about bring back the old Ghost to deal with BL/infestors?

I feel that the nerf was premature, because Zergs weren't given a chance to try and figure it out. However as a composition, ghostmech v Z is kind of a similar 'god' level composition to BL/Infestor. It's harder to transition to perhaps, but it is very catch-all.

@Lavalava.
Agreed with the concept, however you don't have to apply it to all units or none I guess, but you could selectively apply it.

Banelings - Low HP and crucial importance in reactively dealing with means that I think baneling morphs giving them full HP is kind of fair.

Overseers- Would also make them return to 100% HP. I mean it's rare that people saving their ovies by exploiting this mechanic ever happens, in the way that changes a battle or something. However I think it's kind of a cool dynamic that you could save an overlord by morphing it, say when you're scouting and facing a couple of marines. There's a cool kind of expense vs scouting importance decision to be made for a little thing like that, and I like that subtelty.

Infested Terrans- Because they tend to be spammed on top of things like Nexi, with the ability to snipe a Nexus even if you have defensive forces in position, and that's due in part to the fact they spawn with full HP. I'd remove it here, 100%. It rewards mindless play, but wouldn't affect the intelligent uses of IT. For example using eggs to buff/force splash on tanks is a cool mechanic, but not really linked to the HP/regen issue. It would still be possible.

Broodlords- Would remove their ability to regen to 100% health from a corruptor cocoon. Broods are easy enough to transition to, so at the very least they should require careful thought about where and when to morph. It would also open other decisions up to the Zerg, for example if he had a lot of low HP corruptors, it would be good play to bring Queens up to tranfuse them with Queens before morphing to broods, in some situations.

b/c back in the day Zerg didn't know how to use infestor properly like now. May be now infestor can be used to FG and trap ghost. Or if Ghost's snipe range is too far, they could nerf it a bit then I wouldn't mind. Now beside reapers, ghost is the second most useless units in TvZ. Which is not fair consider how Zerg can use almost every single unit except hydras that they have.
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