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On December 02 2012 19:52 TheBB wrote:
There's seriously a lot of exaggerated reactions to a test map in this thread. Optimization doesn't converge in two iterations, folks.
In the spirit of education, while optimization rarely converges in two iterations, you generally expect an improvement in the objective function (in this case, balance) between the iterations.
As far as I can tell, the only thing that this changes is that a single storm will kill an infestor egg. Which is fine, but does nothing to address the basic fact that the Infestor is the answer to every army that P, T, or Z can put together.
-Cross
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On December 02 2012 19:52 TheBB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:49 Shiori wrote:On November 30 2012 11:45 Glon wrote:
You all are COMPLETELY missing the fucking point to lower egg health.
80 health = 1 STORM WILL KILL. You CAN NOT mass infested terran anymore -- all of the eggs will die. Thus, you need support for broods and the game will move AWAY from 15 infestors 20 BL -- you actually have to have roach/ling with your army.
Again, currently, the problem is with these people who get 15~20 + infestor. This patch will stop it from happening if protoss uses storm correctly in conjunction with the standard 3 collosus with any death ball. Now, zerg must sacrifice infestor/BL supply for roach ling.
It should be noted that I believe that fungal should root high templar and ghosts. It makes it so that zerg must actually kite and focus fire these units with Brood lords, not just A move and fungal. Don't even get me started on fungal not rooting speed warp prisms though. How the fuck does that help Terran? How the fuck does that help me engage Infestor/Bl/Spine when it can just Fungal me to death? Presumably that's where the ravens come in. There's seriously a lot of exaggerated reactions to a test map in this thread. Optimization doesn't converge in two iterations, folks.
Praying your opponent can't fungal ravens or spread their units at all or transfuse doesn't sound like a solid option to me.
God forbid Zerg has to split units when terran does it all game at first sight of creep lolol
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On December 02 2012 22:29 Koesader wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 21:02 Destroyr wrote:
Blizzard has to fix the whole game. They should make marines less effective. They are to strong. With them other races have to be imba to kill terran. Instead they should finally buff siege tanks. Siege tanks if sieged have to moll down collosi or something is wrong. Collosi can't be better than tanks and move and ignore high ground and get vision this was great in C&C but this game is even not any more developed for some reason. SC2 marines are just slightly stronger than BW marines, it's the improved clumping that makes them so good. But I dunno really how I could stop a wide variety of zerg and protoss allins with weaker marines.
You are right in that the unit density is the problem, but if Blizzard makes marines "less effective" - as Destroyr wants - by forcing the units to spread while they are moving everything will be alright. Forced unit spreading has to be done for all units then, but sadly Blizzard has a bunch of braindead devs as these suggested changes for the "calls to action" show. None of them really fixes the problems of the Infestor or makes the Raven viable and so on.
SC2 has several design flaws and one of them is the existence of "100% skills" like Fungal, Forcefield, Blink and ... bonus damage. Now Blizzard tried to "fix" one of these skills by adding yet more "100% conditions" by making psionic units immune and they add even more sklls like that in HotS (Abduct, Dark Swarm 2.0).
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On December 02 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 15:40 Hall0wed wrote:
Why can't Blizzard just give Queens 3 range again? There, easiest fix ever. Man up and admit their mistake, seriously.
Doesn't address the boringness of Infestors directly but that can be handled in HotS. The buff to queens really improved this game honestly, it really really did. They just need to adjust the other strong parts of zerg since they made them almost immune to early game aggression which was the only way terran competed with them
Not really. Buffing queens nerfed most of the options T and P could put pressure on Zerg with. The result was a metagame where T or P all-ins entirely or tries to out-greed zerg on a quick third to keep up with their lategame, in what was originally an attempt to give zerg their third for free vs hellions. Now Zerg is guaranteed a third, and every game results in boring turtling on three base strats with engagements generally starting at 10-14min. It was a terrible solution with no foresight into how it'd affect the dynamics of Zerg in what was a trivial "issue" in the first place.
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On December 03 2012 05:01 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 04:49 rd wrote:On December 02 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:On December 02 2012 15:40 Hall0wed wrote:
Why can't Blizzard just give Queens 3 range again? There, easiest fix ever. Man up and admit their mistake, seriously.
Doesn't address the boringness of Infestors directly but that can be handled in HotS. The buff to queens really improved this game honestly, it really really did. They just need to adjust the other strong parts of zerg since they made them almost immune to early game aggression which was the only way terran competed with them Not really. Buffing queens nerfed most of the options T and P could put pressure on Zerg with. The result was a metagame where T or P all-ins entirely or tries to out-greed zerg on a quick third to keep up with their lategame, in what was originally an attempt to give zerg their third for free vs hellions. Now Zerg is guaranteed a third, and every game results in boring turtling on three base strats with engagements generally starting at 10-14min. It was a terrible solution with no foresight into how it'd affect the dynamics of Zerg in what was a trivial "issue" in the first place. It did improve the game. It stopped Terran all ins from basically jst winning every game. They are simply too strong with 3 range queen. Hell, even 4 hellion run bys are too strong with 3 range queen. If the infestor is fixed then I can see a golden age of beautiful TvZ. What it did best however was make ZvZ AWESOME. Ever since the queen buff we have been getting amazing ZvZs when before it was endless crap. Just look at the all zerg group in this GSL or the MLG Dallas finals.
Terran didn't always all-in, and they were all easily held with good control pre-queen patch, where now they're scarcely viable -- just one more element gone from what was originally a wide spectrum of variety pre-queen patch. Hellion run-bys were largely solved with roach/sim-citying. The queen patch just removed the requirement for roaches and gave them a free third in the process.
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On December 03 2012 05:13 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 05:01 Emzeeshady wrote:On December 03 2012 04:49 rd wrote:On December 02 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:On December 02 2012 15:40 Hall0wed wrote:
Why can't Blizzard just give Queens 3 range again? There, easiest fix ever. Man up and admit their mistake, seriously.
Doesn't address the boringness of Infestors directly but that can be handled in HotS. The buff to queens really improved this game honestly, it really really did. They just need to adjust the other strong parts of zerg since they made them almost immune to early game aggression which was the only way terran competed with them Not really. Buffing queens nerfed most of the options T and P could put pressure on Zerg with. The result was a metagame where T or P all-ins entirely or tries to out-greed zerg on a quick third to keep up with their lategame, in what was originally an attempt to give zerg their third for free vs hellions. Now Zerg is guaranteed a third, and every game results in boring turtling on three base strats with engagements generally starting at 10-14min. It was a terrible solution with no foresight into how it'd affect the dynamics of Zerg in what was a trivial "issue" in the first place. It did improve the game. It stopped Terran all ins from basically jst winning every game. They are simply too strong with 3 range queen. Hell, even 4 hellion run bys are too strong with 3 range queen. If the infestor is fixed then I can see a golden age of beautiful TvZ. What it did best however was make ZvZ AWESOME. Ever since the queen buff we have been getting amazing ZvZs when before it was endless crap. Just look at the all zerg group in this GSL or the MLG Dallas finals. Terran didn't always all-in, and they were all easily held with good control pre-queen patch, where now they're scarcely viable -- just one more element gone from what was originally a wide spectrum of variety pre-queen patch. Hellion run-bys were largely solved with roach/sim-citying. The queen patch just removed the requirement for roaches and gave them a free third in the process.
rd is right on this. 5 range queens have done more harm than good. ZvZ might be slightly better post patch. But it was not worth taking out so much variations in TvZ, and even PvZ. It took away the early- and midgame action.
Everybody is just calling it the "Queen patch". But at the same time, overlord speed was increased. That really helped with a real problem for zergs. No one is calling it the "Overlord patch". Because it was a logical and needed patch. Even Toss and Terrans pointed this out. The "queen patch" was over the top. That's why you still see people complaining about it.
Sorry for saying this, but if 4 hellions are too much for you to handle, maybe the problem is on your end of the field.
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On December 03 2012 05:01 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 04:49 rd wrote:On December 02 2012 19:27 Talack wrote:On December 02 2012 15:40 Hall0wed wrote:
Why can't Blizzard just give Queens 3 range again? There, easiest fix ever. Man up and admit their mistake, seriously.
Doesn't address the boringness of Infestors directly but that can be handled in HotS. The buff to queens really improved this game honestly, it really really did. They just need to adjust the other strong parts of zerg since they made them almost immune to early game aggression which was the only way terran competed with them Not really. Buffing queens nerfed most of the options T and P could put pressure on Zerg with. The result was a metagame where T or P all-ins entirely or tries to out-greed zerg on a quick third to keep up with their lategame, in what was originally an attempt to give zerg their third for free vs hellions. Now Zerg is guaranteed a third, and every game results in boring turtling on three base strats with engagements generally starting at 10-14min. It was a terrible solution with no foresight into how it'd affect the dynamics of Zerg in what was a trivial "issue" in the first place. It did improve the game. It stopped Terran all ins from basically jst winning every game. They are simply too strong with 3 range queen. Hell, even 4 hellion run bys are too strong with 3 range queen. If the infestor is fixed then I can see a golden age of beautiful TvZ. What it did best however was make ZvZ AWESOME. Ever since the queen buff we have been getting amazing ZvZs when before it was endless crap. Just look at the all zerg group in this GSL or the MLG Dallas finals.
Golden age of TvZ is behind us. TvZ was considered best matchup by majority because of constant skirmishes. Now we have 2 sides macroing on 3 bases and nothing going on for first 10 minutes.
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On December 02 2012 19:52 TheBB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:49 Shiori wrote:On November 30 2012 11:45 Glon wrote:
You all are COMPLETELY missing the fucking point to lower egg health.
80 health = 1 STORM WILL KILL. You CAN NOT mass infested terran anymore -- all of the eggs will die. Thus, you need support for broods and the game will move AWAY from 15 infestors 20 BL -- you actually have to have roach/ling with your army.
Again, currently, the problem is with these people who get 15~20 + infestor. This patch will stop it from happening if protoss uses storm correctly in conjunction with the standard 3 collosus with any death ball. Now, zerg must sacrifice infestor/BL supply for roach ling.
It should be noted that I believe that fungal should root high templar and ghosts. It makes it so that zerg must actually kite and focus fire these units with Brood lords, not just A move and fungal. Don't even get me started on fungal not rooting speed warp prisms though. How the fuck does that help Terran? How the fuck does that help me engage Infestor/Bl/Spine when it can just Fungal me to death? Presumably that's where the ravens come in. There's seriously a lot of exaggerated reactions to a test map in this thread. Optimization doesn't converge in two iterations, folks.
You're right, sometimes it comes in one like the queen change. lolllllllllllllll
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On November 30 2012 11:49 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:45 Glon wrote:
You all are COMPLETELY missing the fucking point to lower egg health.
80 health = 1 STORM WILL KILL. You CAN NOT mass infested terran anymore -- all of the eggs will die. Thus, you need support for broods and the game will move AWAY from 15 infestors 20 BL -- you actually have to have roach/ling with your army.
Again, currently, the problem is with these people who get 15~20 + infestor. This patch will stop it from happening if protoss uses storm correctly in conjunction with the standard 3 collosus with any death ball. Now, zerg must sacrifice infestor/BL supply for roach ling.
It should be noted that I believe that fungal should root high templar and ghosts. It makes it so that zerg must actually kite and focus fire these units with Brood lords, not just A move and fungal. Don't even get me started on fungal not rooting speed warp prisms though. How the fuck does that help Terran? How the fuck does that help me engage Infestor/Bl/Spine when it can just Fungal me to death?
Because Terran is fine vs Zerg?
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I really hope someone reads this. But I feel like fixing the current game ( WOL ) can be done with 2 easy changes.
1) Fungal Growth is now a 75% snare ( same dmg ), with dimishing returns in a 30 sec window ( IE, 2nd application within 30 sec of the first is a 50% snare, 3rd is a 25%, 4rth is no snare .. same dmg though every time ).
2) FF is now a slow field, units inside of the FF are snared by 50% and have their attack slowed by 50%.
Now we can go back to playing the game instead of screaming at our monitors as our units die helplessly....
That is all.
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On December 03 2012 05:51 Synk wrote:
I really hope someone reads this. But I feel like fixing the current game ( WOL ) can be done with 2 easy changes.
1) Fungal Growth is now a 75% snare ( same dmg ), with dimishing returns in a 30 sec window ( IE, 2nd application within 30 sec of the first is a 50% snare, 3rd is a 25%, 4rth is no snare .. same dmg though every time ).
2) FF is now a slow field, units inside of the FF are snared by 50% and have their attack slowed by 50%.
Now we can go back to playing the game instead of screaming at our monitors as our units die helplessly....
That is all.
I really like that actually. The problem with going raven in lategame TvZ is you have to be so freaking careful that your ravens dont get fungaled for seeker missile because you cant move the ravens in after they are fungaled they are just dead. What pisses me off the most about their "proposed" changes and tests is how they address that. When im going ravens lategame its not the money that is the problem, i never have a problem getting seeker missile when im going for ravens lategame. Thats so easy its like a 100/100 upgrade so that doesnt solve like ANYTHING at all.
Making fungal a snare will increase the skill in the game. It makes it so that if they fungal a big pack of marines then if i micro very well then i can save like half of the marines. It creates interesting dynamics in the game. WHY NOT BLIZZARD TELL ME TELL ME WHY NOT YOU MAKE IT A SNARE...
Just my 2cents
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On December 02 2012 16:21 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 15:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
How do you feel about approaching it from another way? (I do feel that say, the Infestor in terms of overall utility needs fixed btw) What way? Show nested quote +All these compositions aren't inherently broken, there are compositional counters there for T. (Not for P really, mind) The problem is that the Queen patch/Zerg refinement of infestor control etc, enabled what used to be suicidally greedy, to be safe. Everything shifts in this instance. Previously safe becomes an overly safe build etc etc. when a terran makes like 16+ vikings 6+ ravens vs bls and manages to win thanks to zerg screwing up and letting HSMs land on clumps, zerg still has a chance to win if they remax ultra ling bling because of all the supply not in marauders/thors. terran (and protoss) doesn't have the ability to change army compositions like that, and T's most stable unit equivalent to the infestor is... the marine lol, which isn't useful vs hive units unless bls have no support somehow. Show nested quote +All Zergs tech is being made earlier and earlier, because their economy kicks in earlier due to this shift, and everything stems from that. the problem with zerg comes with a combination of many things such as zerg production being too flexible and too strong, scouting being too good, creep being too good (vision, speed boost, forces scans and slows down pushes? And it only costs you energy and APM? LOL), you can kill 20 drones with hellions and be EVEN on workers. the way it works in TvT when you kill 20 workers is you should be AHEAD 20 workers, no? Show nested quote +I would propose some kind of small change to larva to slow this down. Maybe not nerf it, but say create more difference between say, perfect injects and competent injecting. Or nerf it full stop in some way to require more useage of macro hatches over and above relying on how good inject is?
Injects are enabling Zergs to do ridiculous things. Well not ridiculous, but fearsome. I kid you not, I saw Hyun in a game vs Parting on Fightclub have:
A maxed army base on roaches that was pressuring Parting's 3rd really hard.
He had infestors up behind this.
He had already started banking,
5 hatchess had been taken,the 5th was only for the gas geysers.
Hive tech was on its way, if not finished, as was a spire.
Think all of this was in the 13-14th minute? Not sure of the exact timing, it was the game on Metropolis in the Parting/Hyun fightclub showdown.
Not other race, even with no pressure exerted and complete freedom could match those kind of benchmarks, I don't really think.
Hyun's phenomenal, but this is an example of a macro machine showcasing what is theoretically doable with Zergs. if late game zerg wasn't so stupidly good T and P wouldn't be forced to do something before broodlords came out. We wouldn't be forced to pressure and trade before brood lords came out. some zergs know this and even aim to max out and break T 2-2 pushes (getting pretty common now). if late game z isn't addressed then something needs to be done about early-mid game Z production (which would be much harder to balance and a super bad idea overall) also yeah you're right that no other race can outproduce zerg with no pressure, etc.. that's how zerg should work, as a swarm. but it was supposed to have more units that were weaker, not an invincible death army that constantly makes free units. instead it has both. so Z can theoretically hold any pressure or allins with scouting or play greedy enough to use their sick hive units in mid/late game.
Once again Kawaii offers some excellent points.
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On December 02 2012 17:21 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 15:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 02 2012 15:33 KawaiiRice wrote:On December 02 2012 15:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 02 2012 15:15 KawaiiRice wrote:On December 02 2012 14:48 Xapti wrote:On December 01 2012 12:44 TheDwf wrote:On December 01 2012 12:19 Xapti wrote:
- Ultralisks are rather slow, and do terrible damage vs light/non-armored, yet are very vulnerable to nearly all armored units since they are ranged units which deal bonus damage to [armored] ultralisks. [spread] siege tanks counter ultralisks in SC2 which is just ridiculous. What? Sieged Tanks are rather horrible against Ultralisks, Marauders (for biomech) or Thors (for mech) are the real damage dealers against them. Ultralisks are fine against Terran. (And 2.95/3.84 movespeed isn't slow at all, don't know what you're talking about.) They're not SLOW units, but rather not adequately fast, and in more than one way. Ultralisks are comparatively slow vs marines and marauders that can stim and are ranged, zealots that can charge, and stalkers that can blink and are ranged. The issue isn't just their speed, but that they're melee, as well as they're not FAST movement, as well as that their attack is slow. At one point an ultralisk could not damage a retreating spore/spinecrawler OFF CREEP (without having to manually move and target it); I think that issue was somewhat fixed, but it still exists to a lesser degree with units faster than a crawler. Ultralisks will get annihilated by siege tanks which are spread out. This is due to siege tanks' range, as well as their damage vs armored units. If you don't believe me test it out yourself. I'm not talking about like 4 siege tanks, but rather at least a good 14 or something; the more you have the better the results (I don't remember specifically what point was equalized). A late game unit should not function in a way where it is so limited in use due to bottleneck and speed/range/surface-area issues, because that's the largest factor(s) that makes up the late game. if 14 tanks are sieged across an area offensively obviously you can just counter and kill a base or two with ultras. although pushing through 14 tanks is also possible with transfuse lolz, if they don't have marauders then just make a few brood lords cause zerg is banking mad $.$ Kawaii, as someone I vividly remember being the first/one of the first vocal pros in the test map thread for the Queen/OL change, in opposing that change. Considering you were right in that instance, how would you go about fixing the matchup of TvZ right now, if indeed you think it needs fixed? the synergy between bl and infestor is way too strong, vikings need to somehow be better against corruptors (right now vikings that get fungaled are instantly screwed doing basically no damage especially with queens out). fungal needs some change that lets terran micro against it (like dodging/spreading units against HSM) compared to instant hit which is a joke. bls need to cost more supply/infested terran needs to cost more energy, and bls should fire less broodlings or cost money like interceptors (you can see in ZvP when stalkers blink right under bls half the time they still die because of broodlings spawning). the free units are too strong. need more maps that aren't awful like daybreak also, it has a worse TvZ winrate in international TLPD than metropolis (thanks in part to MVP beating foreigners) I'm not a game designer so my answer is probably not the best but anyone that thinks Blizzard knows any better (which used to be a common argument) is obviously wrong right now How do you feel about approaching it from another way? (I do feel that say, the Infestor in terms of overall utility needs fixed btw) All these compositions aren't inherently broken, there are compositional counters there for T. (Not for P really, mind) The problem is that the Queen patch/Zerg refinement of infestor control etc, enabled what used to be suicidally greedy, to be safe. Everything shifts in this instance. Previously safe becomes an overly safe build etc etc. All Zergs tech is being made earlier and earlier, because their economy kicks in earlier due to this shift, and everything stems from that. I would propose some kind of small change to larva to slow this down. Maybe not nerf it, but say create more difference between say, perfect injects and competent injecting. Or nerf it full stop in some way to require more useage of macro hatches over and above relying on how good inject is? Injects are enabling Zergs to do ridiculous things. Well not ridiculous, but fearsome. I kid you not, I saw Hyun in a game vs Parting on Fightclub have: A maxed army base on roaches that was pressuring Parting's 3rd really hard. He had infestors up behind this. He had already started banking, 5 hatchess had been taken,the 5th was only for the gas geysers. Hive tech was on its way, if not finished, as was a spire. Think all of this was in the 13-14th minute? Not sure of the exact timing, it was the game on Metropolis in the Parting/Hyun fightclub showdown. Not other race, even with no pressure exerted and complete freedom could match those kind of benchmarks, I don't really think. Hyun's phenomenal, but this is an example of a macro machine showcasing what is theoretically doable with Zergs. I don't think Blizzard would do this though. The queen patch pretty much started this 'shift,' and they are seemingly unwilling entirely to touch the zerg's ability to ramp their macro unpressured. It's almost like they've planted their flag that Zerg must have 3 bases b-lining straight to their lategame, and the game must be balanced around that truism. It's probably going to be an infestor nerf no matter what.
The Queen buff did indeed cause a lot of these problems. It neutered reapers, which used to be a viable unit that could harass and delay injects. Now Zergs can just idle their queens, defend them and put you behind. Hellions suffered a similar fate, but not to the same degree.
Once again, Zergs could idle their queens and defend against hellion harass. Later in the game, Queens make the already potent BL/infestor/ling even more powerful by picking off fungaled vikings, and transfusing (with full energy) any weak units.
Note that the queen range was ostensibly buffed to help Zergs defend against 11/11 rax. The thing is, good Zerg players already were able to defend and quash these pushes prior to the queen range buff. Now 11/11 rax, like reapers, like hellions, is neutered to the point of no return. If a Zerg currently dies to 11/11 rax, then they have failed on many, many levels of scouting, reaction and execution. But 11/11 rax and its variants offered some of the best, on-edge TvZ we have seen. Not anymore.
Get rid of the queen range for starters, and let's start working towards nerfing the Infestor in a way that's relevant.
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The Game is good enough right now with blizzard putting majority of attention on HotS. Tournaments need to do a better job with map pools. Antiga is thought of as a terran map but actually has been the most balanced map in GSL this year. Tournaments are running too many maps that favour zerg in zvt. IPL has cloud (balanced) Ohana (terran favoured in gsl) and then 3 40% winrate TvZ maps with Metro, Daybreak and abyssal (still a new map with small number of games). GSL this season had Whirlwind in place of Metro which is similar winrate wise but plays differently while having Bel'Shir vestige (50% in very small amount of games) Cloud, antiga and entombed. 4 close to 50% maps and 3 40% maps so it's not that hard to see why terran had such a rough time this season.
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Watched Scarlett vs Life game rightnow.
I love Scarlett but she was being pulled apart by Life's multipronged harass. Then she wins a huge engagement with double the amount of Life's Infestor count.
After a crazy base trade, Life has more mining and even on supply. But Scarlett is still in the game because of... infestors.
Infestors uber alles~ Who needs units? Make infestors! Who needs economy? Regen infestor energy! Who needs multitasking? Use infestors!
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On December 03 2012 05:51 Synk wrote:
I really hope someone reads this. But I feel like fixing the current game ( WOL ) can be done with 2 easy changes.
2) FF is now a slow field, units inside of the FF are snared by 50% and have their attack slowed by 50%.
That would break TvP. How would Protoss hold stim timings? The Terran would just run through the forcefields with their units (stim and the slow would almost cancel each other out) and then win. The 2 medivac timings we see at 10-11 minutes or so would be insanely hard to hold. The other thing to keep in mind is that forcefield prevents vision up ramps. In HOTS this wouldn't matter but in WOL this would make 4gate only for PvP again because you could just sacrifice a unit running into the slow forcefield up the ramp, gain vision, then warp in.
That is the issue with people throwing around ideas to change forcefield. There are way more issues with changing it than most people think. The two examples I gave are just two of many. It would require a redesign of Protoss completely to change forcefield at all.
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On December 03 2012 09:12 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2012 05:51 Synk wrote:
I really hope someone reads this. But I feel like fixing the current game ( WOL ) can be done with 2 easy changes.
2) FF is now a slow field, units inside of the FF are snared by 50% and have their attack slowed by 50%.
That would break TvP. How would Protoss hold stim timings? The Terran would just run through the forcefields with their units (stim and the slow would almost cancel each other out) and then win. The 2 medivac timings we see at 10-11 minutes or so would be insanely hard to hold. The other thing to keep in mind is that forcefield prevents vision up ramps. In HOTS this wouldn't matter but in WOL this would make 4gate only for PvP again because you could just sacrifice a unit running into the slow forcefield up the ramp, gain vision, then warp in. That is the issue with people throwing around ideas to change forcefield. There are way more issues with changing it than most people think. The two examples I gave are just two of many. It would require a redesign of Protoss completely to change forcefield at all.
If you think about it, Terran can't push without stim. Now thats also what FF's would counter if they were a 50% slow and attack speed debuff.
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On December 03 2012 07:06 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2012 17:21 rd wrote:On December 02 2012 15:47 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 02 2012 15:33 KawaiiRice wrote:On December 02 2012 15:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 02 2012 15:15 KawaiiRice wrote:On December 02 2012 14:48 Xapti wrote:On December 01 2012 12:44 TheDwf wrote:On December 01 2012 12:19 Xapti wrote:
- Ultralisks are rather slow, and do terrible damage vs light/non-armored, yet are very vulnerable to nearly all armored units since they are ranged units which deal bonus damage to [armored] ultralisks. [spread] siege tanks counter ultralisks in SC2 which is just ridiculous. What? Sieged Tanks are rather horrible against Ultralisks, Marauders (for biomech) or Thors (for mech) are the real damage dealers against them. Ultralisks are fine against Terran. (And 2.95/3.84 movespeed isn't slow at all, don't know what you're talking about.) They're not SLOW units, but rather not adequately fast, and in more than one way. Ultralisks are comparatively slow vs marines and marauders that can stim and are ranged, zealots that can charge, and stalkers that can blink and are ranged. The issue isn't just their speed, but that they're melee, as well as they're not FAST movement, as well as that their attack is slow. At one point an ultralisk could not damage a retreating spore/spinecrawler OFF CREEP (without having to manually move and target it); I think that issue was somewhat fixed, but it still exists to a lesser degree with units faster than a crawler. Ultralisks will get annihilated by siege tanks which are spread out. This is due to siege tanks' range, as well as their damage vs armored units. If you don't believe me test it out yourself. I'm not talking about like 4 siege tanks, but rather at least a good 14 or something; the more you have the better the results (I don't remember specifically what point was equalized). A late game unit should not function in a way where it is so limited in use due to bottleneck and speed/range/surface-area issues, because that's the largest factor(s) that makes up the late game. if 14 tanks are sieged across an area offensively obviously you can just counter and kill a base or two with ultras. although pushing through 14 tanks is also possible with transfuse lolz, if they don't have marauders then just make a few brood lords cause zerg is banking mad $.$ Kawaii, as someone I vividly remember being the first/one of the first vocal pros in the test map thread for the Queen/OL change, in opposing that change. Considering you were right in that instance, how would you go about fixing the matchup of TvZ right now, if indeed you think it needs fixed? the synergy between bl and infestor is way too strong, vikings need to somehow be better against corruptors (right now vikings that get fungaled are instantly screwed doing basically no damage especially with queens out). fungal needs some change that lets terran micro against it (like dodging/spreading units against HSM) compared to instant hit which is a joke. bls need to cost more supply/infested terran needs to cost more energy, and bls should fire less broodlings or cost money like interceptors (you can see in ZvP when stalkers blink right under bls half the time they still die because of broodlings spawning). the free units are too strong. need more maps that aren't awful like daybreak also, it has a worse TvZ winrate in international TLPD than metropolis (thanks in part to MVP beating foreigners) I'm not a game designer so my answer is probably not the best but anyone that thinks Blizzard knows any better (which used to be a common argument) is obviously wrong right now How do you feel about approaching it from another way? (I do feel that say, the Infestor in terms of overall utility needs fixed btw) All these compositions aren't inherently broken, there are compositional counters there for T. (Not for P really, mind) The problem is that the Queen patch/Zerg refinement of infestor control etc, enabled what used to be suicidally greedy, to be safe. Everything shifts in this instance. Previously safe becomes an overly safe build etc etc. All Zergs tech is being made earlier and earlier, because their economy kicks in earlier due to this shift, and everything stems from that. I would propose some kind of small change to larva to slow this down. Maybe not nerf it, but say create more difference between say, perfect injects and competent injecting. Or nerf it full stop in some way to require more useage of macro hatches over and above relying on how good inject is? Injects are enabling Zergs to do ridiculous things. Well not ridiculous, but fearsome. I kid you not, I saw Hyun in a game vs Parting on Fightclub have: A maxed army base on roaches that was pressuring Parting's 3rd really hard. He had infestors up behind this. He had already started banking, 5 hatchess had been taken,the 5th was only for the gas geysers. Hive tech was on its way, if not finished, as was a spire. Think all of this was in the 13-14th minute? Not sure of the exact timing, it was the game on Metropolis in the Parting/Hyun fightclub showdown. Not other race, even with no pressure exerted and complete freedom could match those kind of benchmarks, I don't really think. Hyun's phenomenal, but this is an example of a macro machine showcasing what is theoretically doable with Zergs. I don't think Blizzard would do this though. The queen patch pretty much started this 'shift,' and they are seemingly unwilling entirely to touch the zerg's ability to ramp their macro unpressured. It's almost like they've planted their flag that Zerg must have 3 bases b-lining straight to their lategame, and the game must be balanced around that truism. It's probably going to be an infestor nerf no matter what. The Queen buff did indeed cause a lot of these problems. It neutered reapers, which used to be a viable unit that could harass and delay injects. Now Zergs can just idle their queens, defend them and put you behind. Hellions suffered a similar fate, but not to the same degree. Once again, Zergs could idle their queens and defend against hellion harass. Later in the game, Queens make the already potent BL/infestor/ling even more powerful by picking off fungaled vikings, and transfusing (with full energy) any weak units. Note that the queen range was ostensibly buffed to help Zergs defend against 11/11 rax. The thing is, good Zerg players already were able to defend and quash these pushes prior to the queen range buff. Now 11/11 rax, like reapers, like hellions, is neutered to the point of no return. If a Zerg currently dies to 11/11 rax, then they have failed on many, many levels of scouting, reaction and execution. But 11/11 rax and its variants offered some of the best, on-edge TvZ we have seen. Not anymore. Get rid of the queen range for starters, and let's start working towards nerfing the Infestor in a way that's relevant.
Why do so many people rewrite history? Prequeen patch everyone went reactor hellion first (almost noone went reapers). This was a great build for terrans as you was very safe and you had map control --> zerg could not counter anything you did reactionary. Was this build a bit too strong? Probably.
But Blizzard made a terrible choice by buffing queens as this made first 10-14 mins extremely boring. I remember predicint that terans probably would completely skip harassing and open siege tank --> quick 3rd. That predicting didn't turn out to be completely true as terrans went into banshee/hellion ( though it was difficult to predict that banshees could work vs mass queens...). But that opening kinda got figured out as well. Hellion openings are still okay'ish, but zerg always has fully control of the game if they no what they are doing and terran can't really harss efficiently early game which makes the game boring.
When that is said I think zerg would have been imbalanced no matter what. Infestors are strong regardless of whether zergs get an early game lead (as they do with queen buff) or doesn't.
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On December 02 2012 19:52 TheBB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:49 Shiori wrote:On November 30 2012 11:45 Glon wrote:
You all are COMPLETELY missing the fucking point to lower egg health.
80 health = 1 STORM WILL KILL. You CAN NOT mass infested terran anymore -- all of the eggs will die. Thus, you need support for broods and the game will move AWAY from 15 infestors 20 BL -- you actually have to have roach/ling with your army.
Again, currently, the problem is with these people who get 15~20 + infestor. This patch will stop it from happening if protoss uses storm correctly in conjunction with the standard 3 collosus with any death ball. Now, zerg must sacrifice infestor/BL supply for roach ling.
It should be noted that I believe that fungal should root high templar and ghosts. It makes it so that zerg must actually kite and focus fire these units with Brood lords, not just A move and fungal. Don't even get me started on fungal not rooting speed warp prisms though. How the fuck does that help Terran? How the fuck does that help me engage Infestor/Bl/Spine when it can just Fungal me to death? Presumably that's where the ravens come in. There's seriously a lot of exaggerated reactions to a test map in this thread. Optimization doesn't converge in two iterations, folks.
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fungal outranges hsm you know, so actually infestors > ravens if the zerg actually pays attention to their army
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