• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:15
CEST 10:15
KST 17:15
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week1[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation14$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced6Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 1 - Final Week Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [G] Progamer Settings ASL20 Preliminary Maps [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 627 users

Call to Action #2: November 30 Balance Testing - Page 24

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 22 23 24 25 26 52 Next
orBitual
Profile Joined January 2011
United States96 Posts
November 30 2012 19:18 GMT
#461
On December 01 2012 04:14 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 04:08 nottapro wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.

I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.


Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.

ZERG
GM: 0.283%

PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%

TERRAN
GM: 0.175%

Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars.


nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB.

Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP.

Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.



Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.


Please don't tell Dustin Browder that. It will ruin his understanding of the world.

On another note.Do anyone remember when back in late beta when tanks dealt like 60 damage to everything (maybe that was slightly more imbalanced than infestors). DB said back then that the matchup (zvt) was 50-50 !!! and indicated that it was probably balanced.
He probably does the same thing now, and combine his balance-comments by looking at the GSL.

Obviously this is a flawed phiolosophy. They should have developed an expected win rate. One could look at the race distribution and assume that win rates has a normal distribution. Then one would could conclude that the top1% terran should be winning 65% (given the game was balanced) against the top3% zergs.

But since the top1% terran only wins 50% of the game against the top3% zergs, the game is imbalanced by 15 percentage point. (though the numbers are invented, I wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the truth).


did you just invent numbers to try to criticize someone else's unscientific approach to balance? lol
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
November 30 2012 19:19 GMT
#462
On December 01 2012 04:18 orBitual wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 04:14 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:08 nottapro wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.

I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.


Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.

ZERG
GM: 0.283%

PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%

TERRAN
GM: 0.175%

Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars.


nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB.

Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP.

Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.



Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.


Please don't tell Dustin Browder that. It will ruin his understanding of the world.

On another note.Do anyone remember when back in late beta when tanks dealt like 60 damage to everything (maybe that was slightly more imbalanced than infestors). DB said back then that the matchup (zvt) was 50-50 !!! and indicated that it was probably balanced.
He probably does the same thing now, and combine his balance-comments by looking at the GSL.

Obviously this is a flawed phiolosophy. They should have developed an expected win rate. One could look at the race distribution and assume that win rates has a normal distribution. Then one would could conclude that the top1% terran should be winning 65% (given the game was balanced) against the top3% zergs.

But since the top1% terran only wins 50% of the game against the top3% zergs, the game is imbalanced by 15 percentage point. (though the numbers are invented, I wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the truth).


did you just invent numbers to try to criticize someone else's unscientific approach to balance? lol


Great you missed the entire point. Go look at Sc2ranks. Terran is the most played race, yet the least present in any league but bronze.

Clearly its not fair that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player. The exact numbers isn't relevant to my point.
Swords
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
6038 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-30 19:22:03
November 30 2012 19:21 GMT
#463
This is a post from a very frustrated person, so hopefully it won't be too incoherent but...

Blizzard has a unit that:
1. cloaks
2. does AOE Damage
3. Stuns/freezes all units, massive, air, etc
4. Reveals cloak
5. Spawns free units that do tremendous dps and only cost energy
6. Defends well
7. Harasses well
8. Costs 2 supply (you can make a ton of them)
9. Can take control of any enemy unit.

and they decide the best fix is to mess around with how much hp the free units have. The Infestor has so much utility - nerf one or two of these things that makes the Infestor such an all around unit and they might have a reasonable solution.

Personally though, what I'd love to see them do is split the unit into two units in HoTS. It's the swiss army knife of spell casters - you could easily make it into a harass, cloak, spawns infested terran unit and a waddles around above ground, defensive fungaling unit. This way the player has to balance what's in his army and Zerg keeps all of the same abilities, it's just more expensive and difficult to get to an army of 40+ fungals and a billion ITs.
orBitual
Profile Joined January 2011
United States96 Posts
November 30 2012 19:23 GMT
#464
On December 01 2012 04:19 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 04:18 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:14 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:08 nottapro wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.

I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.


Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.

ZERG
GM: 0.283%

PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%

TERRAN
GM: 0.175%

Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars.


nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB.

Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP.

Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.



Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.


Please don't tell Dustin Browder that. It will ruin his understanding of the world.

On another note.Do anyone remember when back in late beta when tanks dealt like 60 damage to everything (maybe that was slightly more imbalanced than infestors). DB said back then that the matchup (zvt) was 50-50 !!! and indicated that it was probably balanced.
He probably does the same thing now, and combine his balance-comments by looking at the GSL.

Obviously this is a flawed phiolosophy. They should have developed an expected win rate. One could look at the race distribution and assume that win rates has a normal distribution. Then one would could conclude that the top1% terran should be winning 65% (given the game was balanced) against the top3% zergs.

But since the top1% terran only wins 50% of the game against the top3% zergs, the game is imbalanced by 15 percentage point. (though the numbers are invented, I wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the truth).


did you just invent numbers to try to criticize someone else's unscientific approach to balance? lol


Great you missed the entire point. Go look at Sc2ranks. Terran is the most played race, yet the least present in any league but bronze.

Clearly its not fair that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player. The exact numbers isn't relevant to my point.


Ok, I went over to sc2ranks.com and I didn't see a list of superior terran players and inferior zerg players so I could compare their records. Can you give a direct link? Or... is this just another one of your unscientific things?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
November 30 2012 19:26 GMT
#465
On December 01 2012 04:23 orBitual wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 04:19 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:18 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:14 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:08 nottapro wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.

I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.


Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.

ZERG
GM: 0.283%

PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%

TERRAN
GM: 0.175%

Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars.


nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB.

Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP.

Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.



Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.


Please don't tell Dustin Browder that. It will ruin his understanding of the world.

On another note.Do anyone remember when back in late beta when tanks dealt like 60 damage to everything (maybe that was slightly more imbalanced than infestors). DB said back then that the matchup (zvt) was 50-50 !!! and indicated that it was probably balanced.
He probably does the same thing now, and combine his balance-comments by looking at the GSL.

Obviously this is a flawed phiolosophy. They should have developed an expected win rate. One could look at the race distribution and assume that win rates has a normal distribution. Then one would could conclude that the top1% terran should be winning 65% (given the game was balanced) against the top3% zergs.

But since the top1% terran only wins 50% of the game against the top3% zergs, the game is imbalanced by 15 percentage point. (though the numbers are invented, I wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the truth).


did you just invent numbers to try to criticize someone else's unscientific approach to balance? lol


Great you missed the entire point. Go look at Sc2ranks. Terran is the most played race, yet the least present in any league but bronze.

Clearly its not fair that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player. The exact numbers isn't relevant to my point.


Ok, I went over to sc2ranks.com and I didn't see a list of superior terran players and inferior zerg players so I could compare their records. Can you give a direct link? Or... is this just another one of your unscientific things?


Wait what? YOu still don't get it? I already explained that one could look at ladder distributions and make an estimated win/rate based on an assumption of normal distribution. I wrote that in my first post. This is definitely an improved way of balancing, and one could look at other metrics as well (than just ladder distribution).

As I said again, you can get the numbers from sc2ranks, and you can see that the top x% terrans plays against the top (x+b) % zergs where b is a positive number.
RampancyTW
Profile Joined August 2010
United States577 Posts
November 30 2012 19:26 GMT
#466
This thread is beyond hilarious. I have never seen such a tremendous array of whining over balance testing that ISN'T EVEN LIVE.
Tenks
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3104 Posts
November 30 2012 19:29 GMT
#467
On December 01 2012 04:26 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is beyond hilarious. I have never seen such a tremendous array of whining over balance testing that ISN'T EVEN LIVE.



So we're not allowed to say their proposed changes are abysmal?
Wat
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
November 30 2012 19:37 GMT
#468
On December 01 2012 04:26 RampancyTW wrote:
This thread is beyond hilarious. I have never seen such a tremendous array of whining over balance testing that ISN'T EVEN LIVE.


i'm glad you are laughing, at least 33% of the fan base is
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-30 19:43:56
November 30 2012 19:42 GMT
#469
If you want some numbers.

The average terran master player is at top 4.32% of his race. For zerg that is 6.26%.

The average terran GM is at top 0.17% of his race. For zerg that is 0.31%.

So is the average terran player worse than the average zerg? Possibly. Let's just assume that there are roughly 25000 (which is close to 25% of all terran players in bronze) terran players in bronze who absolutely suck and almost never play and jsut remove them from the equation.
The results for terran is now; 4.96% vs 6.26%. and 0.2% vs 0.31%

Still clear signs of superior terran players facing inferior zerg players.

Blizzard definitely needs to use the ladder distribution and combine it with other metrics (e.g. they could also use metrics such as solo games played, teamgames played, as active players probably are better than non-active players to help determine the "estimated skill level").

Regardless of what they do, it is almost avoidable that terran through an adjusted balance metrics will heavily underpowered.
orBitual
Profile Joined January 2011
United States96 Posts
November 30 2012 19:45 GMT
#470
On December 01 2012 04:26 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 04:23 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:19 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:18 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:14 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:08 nottapro wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.

I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.


Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.

ZERG
GM: 0.283%

PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%

TERRAN
GM: 0.175%

Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars.


nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB.

Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP.

Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.



Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.


Please don't tell Dustin Browder that. It will ruin his understanding of the world.

On another note.Do anyone remember when back in late beta when tanks dealt like 60 damage to everything (maybe that was slightly more imbalanced than infestors). DB said back then that the matchup (zvt) was 50-50 !!! and indicated that it was probably balanced.
He probably does the same thing now, and combine his balance-comments by looking at the GSL.

Obviously this is a flawed phiolosophy. They should have developed an expected win rate. One could look at the race distribution and assume that win rates has a normal distribution. Then one would could conclude that the top1% terran should be winning 65% (given the game was balanced) against the top3% zergs.

But since the top1% terran only wins 50% of the game against the top3% zergs, the game is imbalanced by 15 percentage point. (though the numbers are invented, I wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the truth).


did you just invent numbers to try to criticize someone else's unscientific approach to balance? lol


Great you missed the entire point. Go look at Sc2ranks. Terran is the most played race, yet the least present in any league but bronze.

Clearly its not fair that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player. The exact numbers isn't relevant to my point.


Ok, I went over to sc2ranks.com and I didn't see a list of superior terran players and inferior zerg players so I could compare their records. Can you give a direct link? Or... is this just another one of your unscientific things?


Wait what? YOu still don't get it? I already explained that one could look at ladder distributions and make an estimated win/rate based on an assumption of normal distribution. I wrote that in my first post. This is definitely an improved way of balancing, and one could look at other metrics as well (than just ladder distribution).

As I said again, you can get the numbers from sc2ranks, and you can see that the top x% terrans plays against the top (x+b) % zergs where b is a positive number.


Nah, you have yet to prove that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player, which is what your argument is based on. The only thing I can think (now that you have backed away from that argument) is that you are assuming is that ladder distribution should follow a normal distribution in proportion to population, which is not a given.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-30 19:51:13
November 30 2012 19:49 GMT
#471
On December 01 2012 04:45 orBitual wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 04:26 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:23 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:19 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:18 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:14 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:08 nottapro wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.

I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.


Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.

ZERG
GM: 0.283%

PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%

TERRAN
GM: 0.175%

Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars.


nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB.

Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP.

Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.



Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.


Please don't tell Dustin Browder that. It will ruin his understanding of the world.

On another note.Do anyone remember when back in late beta when tanks dealt like 60 damage to everything (maybe that was slightly more imbalanced than infestors). DB said back then that the matchup (zvt) was 50-50 !!! and indicated that it was probably balanced.
He probably does the same thing now, and combine his balance-comments by looking at the GSL.

Obviously this is a flawed phiolosophy. They should have developed an expected win rate. One could look at the race distribution and assume that win rates has a normal distribution. Then one would could conclude that the top1% terran should be winning 65% (given the game was balanced) against the top3% zergs.

But since the top1% terran only wins 50% of the game against the top3% zergs, the game is imbalanced by 15 percentage point. (though the numbers are invented, I wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the truth).


did you just invent numbers to try to criticize someone else's unscientific approach to balance? lol


Great you missed the entire point. Go look at Sc2ranks. Terran is the most played race, yet the least present in any league but bronze.

Clearly its not fair that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player. The exact numbers isn't relevant to my point.


Ok, I went over to sc2ranks.com and I didn't see a list of superior terran players and inferior zerg players so I could compare their records. Can you give a direct link? Or... is this just another one of your unscientific things?


Wait what? YOu still don't get it? I already explained that one could look at ladder distributions and make an estimated win/rate based on an assumption of normal distribution. I wrote that in my first post. This is definitely an improved way of balancing, and one could look at other metrics as well (than just ladder distribution).

As I said again, you can get the numbers from sc2ranks, and you can see that the top x% terrans plays against the top (x+b) % zergs where b is a positive number.


Nah, you have yet to prove that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player, which is what your argument is based on. The only thing I can think (now that you have backed away from that argument) is that you are assuming is that ladder distribution should follow a normal distribution in proportion to population, which is not a given.


Don't think you understand statistics. It doesn't matter how it is distributed actually (for my point to be valid - just look at the above posts). But one needs to know the distribution to quantiy the estimated win rate.

The important assumption is that zerg players in average aren't heavily superior to terran players. In the above post I suggested ways that Blizzard could take average skill level into account, but no matter what, it can't completely justifiy the skewed distirbutions that we see ladder season after ladder season. I think any statistics-guy by looking at these numbers would conclude that terran is undervalued with a very high probability. I believe one has to be a zerg player to argue that these numbers are justified.
Bam Lee
Profile Joined June 2012
2336 Posts
November 30 2012 19:53 GMT
#472
I like the egg change. Takes 1 storm now to kill hatching infested terrans and you even have time to place them.(Storm 4 secs,hatch time 5 sec)
QQKachoo
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States192 Posts
November 30 2012 19:54 GMT
#473
On November 30 2012 11:23 Kieds wrote:
Thanks god they reverted that change.


The psionic change wasn't that bad. But against protoss it made the match up really difficult since so many of their units are psionic. With the immortal sentry push/all-in it made it nearly impossible to stop it on the test map. They should have just changed some of the unit types to non-psionic even though it might mess with the lore a little bit. I think infested terran should just cost more energy so you can't spam so many of them.
@QKachoo
Snowbear
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Korea (South)1925 Posts
November 30 2012 19:55 GMT
#474
On December 01 2012 04:53 Bam Lee wrote:
I like the egg change. Takes 1 storm now to kill hatching infested terrans and you even have time to place them.(Storm 4 secs,hatch time 5 sec)


No. They reheal and after a storm they have 1 hp left.
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
November 30 2012 19:55 GMT
#475
Except that zerg units regen 1 hp the first time they go below max health, and then at a regular interval afterwards. The eggs survive with minimal health, and the IT from critically wounded eggs still start with max health.
Bam Lee
Profile Joined June 2012
2336 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-30 19:58:05
November 30 2012 19:57 GMT
#476
On December 01 2012 04:55 Snowbear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 04:53 Bam Lee wrote:
I like the egg change. Takes 1 storm now to kill hatching infested terrans and you even have time to place them.(Storm 4 secs,hatch time 5 sec)


No. They reheal and after a storm they have 1 hp left.


Do you know the number at which it regenerates? i didnt find anything regarding that. If you are right then it will need stacked storms still well still a lot easier to kill them with storm

edit: nvm somebody just posted didnt know it counts for eggs too
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
November 30 2012 19:58 GMT
#477
I am quiet interested in seeing what blizzard does. Nerfing investor too much then the collosus + voidray death ball become unstoppable again. Since the reason infestor + broodlord became so popular today started with zerging figuring out that infestor broodlord defeat the collosus voidray death ball. Nerfing fungal too much wil skewer zerg to oblivion due to late game and mid game. Nerfing too little and there is no fix.
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
orBitual
Profile Joined January 2011
United States96 Posts
November 30 2012 19:58 GMT
#478
On December 01 2012 04:49 Hider wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 04:45 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:26 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:23 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:19 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:18 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:14 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:08 nottapro wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.

I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.


Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.

ZERG
GM: 0.283%

PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%

TERRAN
GM: 0.175%

Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars.


nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB.

Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP.

Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.



Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.


Please don't tell Dustin Browder that. It will ruin his understanding of the world.

On another note.Do anyone remember when back in late beta when tanks dealt like 60 damage to everything (maybe that was slightly more imbalanced than infestors). DB said back then that the matchup (zvt) was 50-50 !!! and indicated that it was probably balanced.
He probably does the same thing now, and combine his balance-comments by looking at the GSL.

Obviously this is a flawed phiolosophy. They should have developed an expected win rate. One could look at the race distribution and assume that win rates has a normal distribution. Then one would could conclude that the top1% terran should be winning 65% (given the game was balanced) against the top3% zergs.

But since the top1% terran only wins 50% of the game against the top3% zergs, the game is imbalanced by 15 percentage point. (though the numbers are invented, I wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the truth).


did you just invent numbers to try to criticize someone else's unscientific approach to balance? lol


Great you missed the entire point. Go look at Sc2ranks. Terran is the most played race, yet the least present in any league but bronze.

Clearly its not fair that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player. The exact numbers isn't relevant to my point.


Ok, I went over to sc2ranks.com and I didn't see a list of superior terran players and inferior zerg players so I could compare their records. Can you give a direct link? Or... is this just another one of your unscientific things?


Wait what? YOu still don't get it? I already explained that one could look at ladder distributions and make an estimated win/rate based on an assumption of normal distribution. I wrote that in my first post. This is definitely an improved way of balancing, and one could look at other metrics as well (than just ladder distribution).

As I said again, you can get the numbers from sc2ranks, and you can see that the top x% terrans plays against the top (x+b) % zergs where b is a positive number.


Nah, you have yet to prove that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player, which is what your argument is based on. The only thing I can think (now that you have backed away from that argument) is that you are assuming is that ladder distribution should follow a normal distribution in proportion to population, which is not a given.


Don't think you understand statistics. It doesn't matter how it is distributed actually (for my point to be valid - just look at the above posts). But one needs to know the distribution to quantiy the estimated win rate.

The important assumption is that zerg players in average aren't heavily superior to terran players. In the above post I suggested ways that Blizzard could take average skill level into account, but no matter what, it can't completely justifiy the skewed distirbutions that we see ladder season after ladder season. I think any statistics-guy by looking at these numbers would conclude that terran is undervalued with a very high probability. I believe one has to be a zerg player to argue that these numbers are justified.


Don't delude yourself, you haven't used any complicated statistics. You arbitrarily pick numbers to support your conclusion, and I can do the same using your own resources.

From the world playerbase, active players in the last 30 days. If you exclude bronze, 4.5% of the Terran population is in GM and 4.8% of the Zerg population is in GM. 9.3% of the Terran population is in Master's and 8.3% of the Zerg population is in Master's. Seems close to me.

*Note: this isn't statistics, just arithmetic.
ShamW0W
Profile Joined March 2010
160 Posts
November 30 2012 20:01 GMT
#479
The only statistics that matter imo would be statistics at the very top level of play. I don't care how many players of race X or race Y are in Masters or GM, that's irrelevant to how balanced the game actually is. At the very top level though you'll get rid of factors like matchmaking and severely reduce the variable level of skill between player to get a more accurate representation of how well-balanced your game is.

I have a limited view but most of the tournament results I have seen recently suggest that P and Z are outperforming T. Not quite as much as some people think but from what I've seen it's there.

Where the Psionic change was probably too large of a change I feel this current one is too small. It doesn't address the core issue that players can still mass Infestors and hold their own because it's too much of a catch all unit.

Nerf Fungal, Nerf Infested Terran, buff the Hydralisk. Players shall rejoice.
Half-Man Half-Amazing
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9376 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-30 20:07:31
November 30 2012 20:06 GMT
#480
On December 01 2012 04:58 orBitual wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2012 04:49 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:45 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:26 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:23 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:19 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:18 orBitual wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:14 Hider wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:08 nottapro wrote:
On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:
[quote]

nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB.

Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP.

Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.



Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.


Please don't tell Dustin Browder that. It will ruin his understanding of the world.

On another note.Do anyone remember when back in late beta when tanks dealt like 60 damage to everything (maybe that was slightly more imbalanced than infestors). DB said back then that the matchup (zvt) was 50-50 !!! and indicated that it was probably balanced.
He probably does the same thing now, and combine his balance-comments by looking at the GSL.

Obviously this is a flawed phiolosophy. They should have developed an expected win rate. One could look at the race distribution and assume that win rates has a normal distribution. Then one would could conclude that the top1% terran should be winning 65% (given the game was balanced) against the top3% zergs.

But since the top1% terran only wins 50% of the game against the top3% zergs, the game is imbalanced by 15 percentage point. (though the numbers are invented, I wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the truth).


did you just invent numbers to try to criticize someone else's unscientific approach to balance? lol


Great you missed the entire point. Go look at Sc2ranks. Terran is the most played race, yet the least present in any league but bronze.

Clearly its not fair that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player. The exact numbers isn't relevant to my point.


Ok, I went over to sc2ranks.com and I didn't see a list of superior terran players and inferior zerg players so I could compare their records. Can you give a direct link? Or... is this just another one of your unscientific things?


Wait what? YOu still don't get it? I already explained that one could look at ladder distributions and make an estimated win/rate based on an assumption of normal distribution. I wrote that in my first post. This is definitely an improved way of balancing, and one could look at other metrics as well (than just ladder distribution).

As I said again, you can get the numbers from sc2ranks, and you can see that the top x% terrans plays against the top (x+b) % zergs where b is a positive number.


Nah, you have yet to prove that a superior terran player goes 50-50 vs an inferior zerg player, which is what your argument is based on. The only thing I can think (now that you have backed away from that argument) is that you are assuming is that ladder distribution should follow a normal distribution in proportion to population, which is not a given.


Don't think you understand statistics. It doesn't matter how it is distributed actually (for my point to be valid - just look at the above posts). But one needs to know the distribution to quantiy the estimated win rate.

The important assumption is that zerg players in average aren't heavily superior to terran players. In the above post I suggested ways that Blizzard could take average skill level into account, but no matter what, it can't completely justifiy the skewed distirbutions that we see ladder season after ladder season. I think any statistics-guy by looking at these numbers would conclude that terran is undervalued with a very high probability. I believe one has to be a zerg player to argue that these numbers are justified.


Don't delude yourself, you haven't used any complicated statistics. You arbitrarily pick numbers to support your conclusion, and I can do the same using your own resources.

From the world playerbase, active players in the last 30 days. If you exclude bronze, 4.5% of the Terran population is in GM and 4.8% of the Zerg population is in GM. 9.3% of the Terran population is in Master's and 8.3% of the Zerg population is in Master's. Seems close to me.

*Note: this isn't statistics, just arithmetic.


You are a master of missing the point (intentionally or just ignorant?). Sure this is basic statistics, but I just argued that you didn't understand the premise my assumption was build on due to lack of understnad game understnading.

Also removing bronze completely is absolutely retarded. This is a hopelessly biased error because what is happening is that in an imbalanced world: low gm terran players gets into high master. Low masters --> Diamond low diamond into plat.. etc.. (you really never considered that there is a lot of terrans in bronze because the race might be UP?).

So in the end there are lot of terran players who deserves to be in silver but is in bronze. Removing bronze is terrible solution. So I think I end our discussiong here as you are clearly a biased zerg player + you have little understanding of statistics/can't interpret numbers objectively.
Prev 1 22 23 24 25 26 52 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 45m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 291
actioN 195
Backho 109
Noble 76
Sharp 63
JulyZerg 34
Bale 16
yabsab 16
Sacsri 14
IntoTheRainbow 3
Dota 2
ODPixel321
XcaliburYe270
XaKoH 262
League of Legends
JimRising 567
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss626
chrisJcsgo63
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor146
Other Games
shahzam1052
Stewie2K661
ceh9437
monkeys_forever277
Liquid`RaSZi135
crisheroes99
SortOf82
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick22654
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH398
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2153
League of Legends
• Lourlo1264
• Stunt444
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
1h 45m
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
4h 45m
Replay Cast
15h 45m
RSL Revival
1d 1h
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d 7h
OSC
1d 11h
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
2 days
FEL
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.