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Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 players were zerg in korea, 25 players were zerg in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.
I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.
Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.
ZERG
GM: 0.283%
PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%
TERRAN
GM: 0.175%
Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars.
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Well that really sucks. I don't usually comment on this stuff but I feel like it is appropriate to here.
The Psionic change made so much sense. It gave Protoss an option to harrass thanks to warp prism being immune (not to mention a chance for High Templars to actually land feedbacks without having to rely on the Zerg screwing up and moving infestors too close). It gave Terrans a chance to use snipe or EMP without risking losing all their ghosts to one fungal. A 20 health nerf to Infested Terran eggs will not make a difference when there are 50+ of them, not to mention that the Infested Terrans hatch with full health. Blizzard needs to severely nerf the infestor and figure out how to buff zerg to compensate or we will continue to see games of 20+ infestors comprising of the whole Zerg army and watch non-Zerg armies get evaporated by pure energy units and spells.
I guess I'll just have to put more soul into my immortal/sentry all-ins...
On December 01 2012 03:00 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:57 Plansix wrote:On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard. Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war. We are better off than 2 years ago. Actually I'd rather watch that now, than what we have today. Agreed. At least there was variety. The only fun matches to watch (to me), are the non-Zerg matchups. PvT is exciting, TvT is slow but interesting because of how scrappy it can be, and PvP at least always has something going on. TvZ is frustrating to watch (and I'm not even Terran) and I straight up don't watch PvZ or I just scrub through it to see what happens because there is normally only 2 things that ever happen, immortal/sentry or a turtlefest.
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Really Blizzard? This is pathetic. Are you sure that David Kim being zerg has no impact on the balance? Because as mentioned previously, the ghost nerf was huge and yet we managed to deal with it. The 500 terran nerfs were dealt through, but now zerg is just too strong, so please, do a useful change. Otherwise you're gonna lose more and more players like me losing interest for this game.
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I would like to get feedback on the numbers I just posted. Infested terran are showing an incredible, incredible supply efficiency and some of the proposed nerfs have been limiting infestors to 6 or 4 infested terran eggs per infestor
In my spoiler, you will see that even with 4 infested terran per infestor, zergs will still be able to create an energy-only army with more potential HP and DPS than any protoss or terran army. Unless a change is made soon, i feel that we are only on the tip of the iceberg of infestor abuse
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On December 01 2012 03:34 c0sm0naut wrote:
with 5,000 gas per base, assuming 3 bases, you have access to 15,000 vespene which is in total 100 infestors. With (200 supply) 100 infestors, you have a maximum of 20,000 energy which in total can create 5,000 inested terran
So infested terrans only cost 4 energy? Nice math. I can never be sure if Blizzard's balance changes will work out, but you can guarantee a circle jerk of stupidity and gold leaguers who quit on the game a year ago.
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No projectile on fungal? I am confused.....wasnt that one of the listed change they said they were going to do?
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just buff ghosts and templar or some other stuff but stop nerfing shit, thats boring
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"Zerg is balanced fine" Nerf to IT
"We agree fungal needs a change" No change to fungal
..........
wut
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On December 01 2012 03:41 orBitual wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 03:34 c0sm0naut wrote:
with 5,000 gas per base, assuming 3 bases, you have access to 15,000 vespene which is in total 100 infestors. With (200 supply) 100 infestors, you have a maximum of 20,000 energy which in total can create 5,000 inested terran
So infested terrans only cost 4 energy? Nice math. I can never be sure if Blizzard's balance changes will work out, but you can guarantee a circle jerk of stupidity and gold leaguers who quit on the game a year ago.
editing now, misplaced a single zero
done, the new numbers put IT at
40,000 HP in total (200/200 infestors, full energy) and 10,320 DPS
regardless of my dramatic mathematical mistake, there is no WOL composition besides pure infestors that can match this health pool and DPS
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On November 30 2012 11:45 Glon wrote:
You all are COMPLETELY missing the fucking point to lower egg health.
80 health = 1 STORM WILL KILL. You CAN NOT mass infested terran anymore -- all of the eggs will die. Thus, you need support for broods and the game will move AWAY from 15 infestors 20 BL -- you actually have to have roach/ling with your army.
Again, currently, the problem is with these people who get 15~20 + infestor. This patch will stop it from happening if protoss uses storm correctly in conjunction with the standard 3 collosus with any death ball. Now, zerg must sacrifice infestor/BL supply for roach ling.
It should be noted that I believe that fungal should root high templar and ghosts. It makes it so that zerg must actually kite and focus fire these units with Brood lords, not just A move and fungal. Don't even get me started on fungal not rooting speed warp prisms though.
Uh.. storm deals 80dmg over 4seconds. It would only kill eggs if they don't regen 1hp over that length. If they made IT eggs 78-79hp, then 1 storm would kill the eggs.
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On December 01 2012 03:41 Ben... wrote:Well that really sucks. I don't usually comment on this stuff but I feel like it is appropriate to here. The Psionic change made so much sense. It gave Protoss an option to harrass thanks to warp prism being immune (not to mention a chance for High Templars to actually land feedbacks without having to rely on the Zerg screwing up and moving infestors too close). It gave Terrans a chance to use snipe or EMP without risking losing all their ghosts to one fungal. A 20 health nerf to Infested Terran eggs will not make a difference when there are 50+ of them, not to mention that the Infested Terrans hatch with full health. Blizzard needs to severely nerf the infestor and figure out how to buff zerg to compensate or we will continue to see games of 20+ infestors comprising of the whole Zerg army and watch non-Zerg armies get evaporated by pure energy units and spells. I guess I'll just have to put more soul into my immortal/sentry all-ins... Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 03:00 PanzerElite wrote:On December 01 2012 02:57 Plansix wrote:On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard. Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war. We are better off than 2 years ago. Actually I'd rather watch that now, than what we have today. Agreed. At least there was variety. The only fun matches to watch (to me), are the non-Zerg matchups. PvT is exciting, TvT is slow but interesting because of how scrappy it can be, and PvP at least always has something going on. TvZ is frustrating to watch (and I'm not even Terran) and I straight up don't watch PvZ or I just scrub through it to see what happens because there is normally only 2 things that ever happen, immortal/sentry or a turtlefest.
most of those were nerfed because of how the maps are, but there have been no buffs or changes ever since the maps gradually became larger... and larger... and larger... and larger...
On December 01 2012 03:46 dachi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:45 Glon wrote:
You all are COMPLETELY missing the fucking point to lower egg health.
80 health = 1 STORM WILL KILL. You CAN NOT mass infested terran anymore -- all of the eggs will die. Thus, you need support for broods and the game will move AWAY from 15 infestors 20 BL -- you actually have to have roach/ling with your army.
Again, currently, the problem is with these people who get 15~20 + infestor. This patch will stop it from happening if protoss uses storm correctly in conjunction with the standard 3 collosus with any death ball. Now, zerg must sacrifice infestor/BL supply for roach ling.
It should be noted that I believe that fungal should root high templar and ghosts. It makes it so that zerg must actually kite and focus fire these units with Brood lords, not just A move and fungal. Don't even get me started on fungal not rooting speed warp prisms though. Uh.. storm deals 80dmg over 4seconds. It would only kill eggs if they don't regen 1hp over that length. If they made IT eggs 78-79hp, then 1 storm would kill the eggs.
not to mention that if the eggs aren't killed, you have full hp _actual Infested terrans_ out of the egg
and you just wasted a storm I guess *shrug*
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On December 01 2012 03:09 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:42 willoc wrote:On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy Please share us the global statistics you have sir! http://starcraft2.fi/suomiladder_gm.phpdespite having the smallest player base zerg is more prominent in most of the realms due to weaker zergs being able to compete at a higher level because of OP strategy's.
Hah wow... if those stats are correct, that's just depressing. Look at the All Top 50 %s, Zerg is freaking 50% representation across ALL servers in GM! I really don't understand Blizzards statistics and really believe they just pull shit out of their ass to reassure us until HoTS rolls around. Too bad for them I don't even know that I'm willing to give HoTS a try now, because it seems nothing radical is to change, and that's what this game needs.
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Idk about anyone else but this is by far the most disappointing decision blizzard has ever made for me.
I logged in after MONTHS of not being on these forums just to write about this. I honestly think it's pathetic.
To my knowledge, we have had literally thousands of complaints about the infestor. Many pros have been interviewed about them and voted to change them, most players regardless or race and league have agreed that fungal needs to be changed.
Yet after all the support in favor of nerfing fungal Blizzard has completely changed direction after trying to implement a far to extreme and unsupported one.
FFS Blizzard here are three EASY things to implement that 90% of people in starcraft would agree on:
- Ghost snipe 30 (+20 to psionic)
- Fungal no longer effects massive
- Carrier "leash" micro.
What will we get though?
- Nydus canal exit sight range increase
- Bunker build time increase +5 seconds
- Sentry hallucination duration +5 seconds.
Then again, those changes might actually make more of a difference then the pure weak-sauce ones they have testing right now.
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Really glad I "found" dota2, it will keep my busy while Blizz destroys the best game ever made.
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On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.
I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.
Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.
ZERG
GM: 0.283%
PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%
TERRAN
GM: 0.175%
Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars.
nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB.
Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP.
Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.
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On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.
I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.
Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.
ZERG
GM: 0.283%
PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%
TERRAN
GM: 0.175%
Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars. nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB. Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP. Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy.
Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.
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On December 01 2012 02:02 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 01:55 rd wrote:On December 01 2012 01:52 shivver wrote:
I know you are reading this thread Michael Morhaime
I would suggest that you fire your balance team, and your lead designer while you still have the ability to do so. Make sure you suggest someone better so they aren't left without a balance team for a few weeks afterwards. I know Mike is subscribed to your post history and will jump right on it. I'm certain that as a CEO of blizzard, he is aware of the glaring issues with his balance team and that he should have other people in mind.If he hasn't, well.. I don't know what to tell you really. I'm not in his position and I'm not informed on what's going on the "inside" there. But if you think Dustin Browder and David Kim are the best solution.. I don't know what to tell you once again. Do I have someone to suggest? I haven't researched it so no I don't have anyone to suggest. BUT, if Michael would so kindly support my bank account as he has Dustin's, I'm certain I could provide him with a very substantial substitute for those two who quite honestly.. don't even watch the game.
Pretty sure he don't actually. YOur right that any competent CEO should know that, and would have designed metrics to measure the quality of the team. But I don't think Mike Morhiamme is the typical MBA kind of CEO which (despite the typical opinion from gamers) is not a good thing. With an MBA CEO Sc2 would be the leading esports game right now (yeh ahead of LOL), and I highly doubt Dustin Browder would still have a job (most likely he would never had a job / or the collosus would never have been implemented in the game).
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3->2 Colossus shots (level 3 attack)
3->2 Seiged tank shots (level 2 or higher)
Not a bad start... But IT eggs aren't even biological, what the hell is that all about?
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On December 01 2012 04:08 nottapro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 04:02 Hider wrote:On December 01 2012 03:39 Trumpstyle wrote:
Where does blizzard get there bullshit number that zerg is balance, I really like blizzard but I think they just lying or looking at numbers they like. I just checked grandmaster ladder for korea, america and Europe. I checked top 50 players of best win ratio % and 22 was zerg in korea, 25 in America and Europe. Clearly at least if we look at grandmaster ladder zerg is clearly the best race by pretty big margin. They can't just look at 1 tournament and say yeah it's balanced because it can just be a fluke.
I really think blizzard is either just lying here or half lying using some kind of strange statistic to make the game look more balance than it is.
Edit:
This another post from someone in us.battle.net forum proving that blizzard is lying about statistic that zerg is balance. Someone did math the amount of players in Gm globally. My own math that u can see above is from top 50 Players best win ratio. Either way both math shows Zerg is clearly favored. So Blizzard is lying about zerg is balanced.
ZERG
GM: 0.283%
PROTOSS
GM: 0.203%
TERRAN
GM: 0.175%
Intill blizzard post there numbers how Zerg is balanced we should call them liars. nonononono. Zerg vs teran is 50 vs. 50 on the ladder. That's what matter according to DB. Also that game where MVP owned some foreign patch zergs with raven seeker missile. Clearly that was a sign up zerg not being OP. Trust Dustin Browder, he knows how to interpret statistics because he has a degree in liberal arts, and he designed the collosus, the roach, the maurauder, fungal growth etc. so he is also a very smart guy. Lol exactly, concluding the game is balanced by reading the statistics of a system; "specifically enigineered" to make sure that everyone always maintain a near 50% win / loss ratio through hand selecting their opponents, is a new level of stupid.
Please don't tell Dustin Browder that. It will ruin his understanding of the world.
On another note.Do anyone remember when back in late beta when tanks dealt like 60 damage to everything (maybe that was slightly more imbalanced than infestors). DB said back then that the matchup (zvt) was 50-50 !!! and indicated that it was probably balanced.
He probably does the same thing now, and combine his balance-comments by looking at the GSL.
Obviously this is a flawed phiolosophy. They should have developed an expected win rate. One could look at the race distribution and assume that win rates has a normal distribution. Then one would could conclude that the top1% terran should be winning 65% (given the game was balanced) against the top3% zergs.
But since the top1% terran only wins 50% of the game against the top3% zergs, the game is imbalanced by 15 percentage point. (though the numbers are invented, I wouldn't be surprised if they are very close to the truth).
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EPT
