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On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy
Please share us the global statistics you have sir!
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Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard.
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On December 01 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:02 shivver wrote:On December 01 2012 01:55 rd wrote:On December 01 2012 01:52 shivver wrote:
I know you are reading this thread Michael Morhaime
I would suggest that you fire your balance team, and your lead designer while you still have the ability to do so. Make sure you suggest someone better so they aren't left without a balance team for a few weeks afterwards. I know Mike is subscribed to your post history and will jump right on it. I'm certain that as a CEO of blizzard, he is aware of the glaring issues with his balance team and that he should have other people in mind. If he hasn't, well.. I don't know what to tell you really. I'm not in his position and I'm not informed on what's going on the "inside" there. But if you think Dustin Browder and David Kim are the best solution.. I don't know what to tell you once again. Do I have someone to suggest? I haven't researched it so no I don't have anyone to suggest. BUT, if Michael would so kindly support my bank account as he has Dustin's, I'm certain I could provide him with a very substantial substitute for those two who quite honestly.. don't even watch the game. I am sure he is aware that the balance test map is a test map for non-final changes. I am sure he is also aware that the community freaks out about every change, no matter how minor and always claims DK and DB are worthless. The community is asking for infestors to be nerfed. Blizzard is trying to figure out how much of a nerf is necessary, while keeping the unit still useful. They were always going to go have to test several changes of differening levels impact.
oh, well in that case.. do take your time
soon
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On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard.
Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war.
We are better off than 2 years ago.
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On December 01 2012 02:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard. Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war. We are better off than 2 years ago.
Well... at least we saw a different build every map.
THINGS ARE WORSE THAN EVARRRR
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On December 01 2012 02:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard. Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war. We are better off than 2 years ago.
It did have a sense of exploring the unknown, though. The meta was constantly developing. Now it just feels played out. Not saying that the game wasn't broken 2 years ago, but it was definitely interesting.
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On December 01 2012 02:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard. Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war. We are better off than 2 years ago.
Actually I'd rather watch that now, than what we have today.
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On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard.
Hyperbole. It's not the worst it has been.However, zerg is certainly a big problem, especially the dreaded BL/infestor. Because of it both TvZ and PvZ are both races against time, or won by sheer luck by getting a good vortex or some seeker missiles.
The more refined strategies have become, the more apparent it is how stupidly designed BL/infestor is. The only problem is that Blizzard somehow right now decided to take baby steps instead of fixing an obviously broken thing. Blizzard should have acted like they acted with snipe, with a harsh nerf that put an end to an abusive strategy. Instead we get a load of bullshit interviews and even more bullshit games that could have been great.
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More reason not to go back and play sc2. Hope Season 3 of LoL starts soon!
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On December 01 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:57 Plansix wrote:On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard. Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war. We are better off than 2 years ago. It did have a sense of exploring the unknown, though. The meta was constantly developing. Now it just feels played out. Not saying that the game wasn't broken 2 years ago, but it was definitely interesting.
On December 01 2012 03:00 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:57 Plansix wrote:On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard. Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war. We are better off than 2 years ago. Actually I'd rather watch that now, than what we have today.
I agree with that, but that is due to the crappy tournament map pool that has been unchanged for well over 6 months. The mass infestor builds are a response to that map pool and the ease that zerg can take their third base with no investment in units at all. It is the same reason that terrans are no agressive against protoss, because every approach can be blocked with 1-2 easy forcefields.
The community needs to embrace new maps along with balance changes. Maps with brutal features that require a player to address them and do not encourage passive play. And we also need to accept that pros and "highlevel" players are going to WHINE about "imbalanced" maps where they cannot use their standard builds.
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On December 01 2012 02:42 willoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy Please share us the global statistics you have sir!
http://starcraft2.fi/suomiladder_gm.php
despite having the smallest player base zerg is more prominent in most of the realms due to weaker zergs being able to compete at a higher level because of OP strategy's.
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lol jeez. Everyone should be happy they are actually looking into it instead of jumping out with your pitch fork.
I wonder how many people that whine in this thread about those change (or undo) actually tried several games on either test map, I am guessing most of them just read the change, see its not what they want and just QQ'ing.
And if you dont use the Global Statistic, what do you use to do balance ? Major tournement result ? GLS champion ? Kespa player stats ? Who complain the most on the forum ? Pro players ? Amateur players ?
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useless change. I am genuinely bored with watching zerg games. Zerg vs whatever is the same old formula.
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On December 01 2012 03:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 03:00 Shiori wrote:On December 01 2012 02:57 Plansix wrote:On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard. Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war. We are better off than 2 years ago. It did have a sense of exploring the unknown, though. The meta was constantly developing. Now it just feels played out. Not saying that the game wasn't broken 2 years ago, but it was definitely interesting. Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 03:00 PanzerElite wrote:On December 01 2012 02:57 Plansix wrote:On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard. Um...2 years ago we were dealing with KA, fast stim, 4 gates, 11/11rax - bunker rush, close positions, steps of fucking war, 2 pylon ramps, proxy thor rush, charglots that never hit moving units, and let us not forget steps of fucking war. We are better off than 2 years ago. Actually I'd rather watch that now, than what we have today. I agree with that, but that is due to the crappy tournament map pool that has been unchanged for well over 6 months. The mass infestor builds are a response to that map pool and the ease that zerg can take their third base with no investment in units at all. It is the same reason that terrans are no agressive against protoss, because every approach can be blocked with 1-2 easy forcefields. The community needs to embrace new maps along with balance changes. Maps with brutal features that require a player to address them and do not encourage passive play. And we also need to accept that pros and "highlevel" players are going to WHINE about "imbalanced" maps where they cannot use their standard builds.
I kinda agree, but its really hard to introduce balance through maps while Blizzard is still balancing the game themselves. The maps originally became bigger because people wanted longer and better games, not because it would necessarily be more balanced that way. SC2 hasn't really been balanced by maps the way BW was.
Also with HOTS only 3+ months away theres no real motivation for mapmakers to create new stuff. Everything will be radically different once HOTS hits anyway.
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On December 01 2012 03:09 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:42 willoc wrote:On November 30 2012 11:29 SuperYo1000 wrote:
Global statistics don’t give us the impression that Zerg players have a general advantage, especially at the highest levels of play
In what universe are they getting there info from? At first I thought I must be taking crazy pills....Turns out...blizzard is sucking these down like candy Please share us the global statistics you have sir! http://starcraft2.fi/suomiladder_gm.phpdespite having the smallest player base zerg is more prominent in most of the realms due to weaker zergs being able to compete at a higher level because of OP strategy's.
Well, I can't really understand the language that page is in but, nevertheless, these looks like a subset of the global statistics you speak of.
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anyone want to help me populate iccup? im losing hope in sc2 atm
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
Im sure plenty have tried
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Spoiler: Math on potential energy cost changes for infested terran
+ Show Spoiler +some math here to put everything in perspective:
1 IT has 50 health, it has 9.3 DPS and lasts 30 seconds and it costs 25 energy
with 3/3 upgrades, It's DPS becomes 12.9
20 Supply, 10 Infestors: Have a maximum of 2000 energy, which is 80 Infested Terran which in total have 4000 health and deal a total of 984 DPS
40 Supply, 20 Infestors: Have a maximum of 4000 energy, which is 160 Infested Terran which in total have 8000 health and deal a total of 1968 DPS
60 Supply, the infamous Leenock 30 Infestors: Have a maximum of 6000 energy, which is 240 infested terran which in total have 12000 health and deal an astounding 2,952 DPS
Obviously these numbers are "perfect" because you cannot spawn 240 all within 5 range of eachother so there is some what of a terrain limitation in their usefulness
Given the 30 energy nerf that would lower the numbers to 6 per infestor, we would see numbers of,
20 Supply, 10 Infestors: Have a maximum of 2000, energy which is 60 infested terran which in total have 3000 health and deal 738 DPS
40 Supply, 20 Infestors: Have a maximum of 4000 energy, which is 120 Infested terran which in total have 6000 health and deal 1476 DPS
60 Supply, 30 Infestors: Have a maximum of 6000 energy, which is 180 Infested terran which in total have 9000 health and deal 2214 DPS
Given the 50 energy nerf that would lower numbers to 4 per infestor, we would see numbers of,
20 Supply, 10 Infestors: Have a maximum of 2000 energy which is 40 infested terran, which in total have 2000 health and deal a total of 492 DPS
40 Supply, 20 Infestors: have a maximum of 4000 energy which is 80 infested terran, which in total have 4000 life and deal a total of 984 DPS
60 Supply, 30 infestors: have a maximum of 6000 energy, which is 120 infested terran which in total have 6000 life and deal a total of 1476 DPS
I find it amazing that they are considering a nerf to the HP of the 2(?) armor, shells these units come in. After making these initial numbers, i started theorycrafting
with 5,000 gas per base, assuming 3 bases, you have access to 15,000 vespene which is in total 100 infestors. With (200 supply) 100 infestors, you have a maximum of 20,000 energy which in total can create 800 inested terran
Can anyone think of a 200/200 supply army that can go head to head with 800 infested terran?
Lets do the math on 800 infested terran. In total, 800 infested terran will have 40,000 HP. To put this in perspective, 200/200 supply of zealots will have 15,000 HP. 200/200 supply of marines will have 11,000 HP
(lets assume max upgrades for this next part) What about damage per second? In total, 800 infested terran will have an incredible 10,320 DPS. 200/200 supply of zealots 3,990 DPS, 200/200 supply of stimmed marines will have 3,120 DPS.
What if we used terran and Protoss' higher tech units though?
Compared to the 40,000 HP, and 10,320 DPS of a pure 200/200 supply army of infestors,
If you had 33 collosus (198 Supply) you have a grand total of 838.2 DPS and a total of 11,550 HP
If you had 33 battlecruisers (198 supply) you have a grand total of 1,610.4 DPS, and a total of 18,150 HP
As you can see, there is no unit in the game that can match the raw DPS or health pool of the infested terran. Considering the "bonus HP" they gain in egg form before they begin attacking, this makes them able to force engagements by dropping say, 200 energy or 8 infested terran on a production facility or base. when their opponent begins to engage they can be locked in place and spammed with additional infested terran.
They are nerfing the egg form, because they are unaware of the true imbalances of the Marine form, this is something that the meta has just only recently began to take advantage of. Infestors IT spell has been broken for the longest time but without a consensus our community will not be able to get blizzard to address it. instead we will get placebo nerfs and placebo raven buffs (:/)
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So glad I quit sc2. Its looking really bad right now, and to make matters worse.. Blizzard seems to have their heads up their asses in regards to balance.
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On December 01 2012 02:47 aarsgier wrote:
Isnt it fucking sad that after two years this game is in worst shape than ever. I played C&C generals and company of heroes online for longer than 2 years and those game where unbalanced as well. The only difference is that those games where actually fun to play. Also I believe a poll whas on this site a few days ago which revealed that more than 70% of TL community dont even freaking play SC2. So we have these forums where everybody seems to care about balance but no one actually plays tha damn game lol. What this community desperatly needs is a new RTS game and preferably not one made by blizzard.
I think the missing votes from the poll were people who are playing the game and not seeing every thread posted ^^
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EPT
