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On December 01 2012 01:55 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 01:52 shivver wrote:
I know you are reading this thread Michael Morhaime
I would suggest that you fire your balance team, and your lead designer while you still have the ability to do so. Make sure you suggest someone better so they aren't left without a balance team for a few weeks afterwards. I know Mike is subscribed to your post history and will jump right on it.
I'm certain that as a CEO of blizzard, he is aware of the glaring issues with his balance team and that he should have other people in mind.
If he hasn't, well.. I don't know what to tell you really. I'm not in his position and I'm not informed on what's going on the "inside" there. But if you think Dustin Browder and David Kim are the best solution.. I don't know what to tell you once again.
Do I have someone to suggest? I haven't researched it so no I don't have anyone to suggest. BUT, if Michael would so kindly support my bank account as he has Dustin's, I'm certain I could provide him with a very substantial substitute for those two who quite honestly.. don't even watch the game.
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On December 01 2012 02:00 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 01:58 Cornix wrote:
I know this will be the unpopular opinion in here but as a protoss I actually really like the infested terran change. Do I still think that fungal needs a change? Absolutely. However, at least for toss, the infested terran egg change makes it just 1 storm to get rid of a batch of IT eggs. That's pretty huge. don't need to focus fire, just storm the biggest batches of eggs, as long as you get more than 3 eggs in the storm you're trading energy well, plus this helps prevent a lot of the IT overruns that happen so often.
On the other hand, please fix fungal blizzard. It doesn't work that way. The eggs still outregen a single storm and have to eat multiple storms for the entire 5 second duration to die before hatching. It'd take way more storms than you're thinking.
If ITs are clumped up, 2 storms can take out at least 15. 15 ITs = 375 energy, 2 storms = 150 energy. Also 1 seeker missile can kill the whole lot of clumped ITs. It's not all doom and gloom with respect to ITs, especially in the late game situation. Fungal, on the other hand...
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I really liked Idra's idea for fungal, not sure if it has been mentioned in here. But why not make it a slow moving projectile that can be dodged. Also the smartcast stuff mentioned in another thread. Blizzard, the answers are so simple!
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On December 01 2012 01:40 Rojac wrote:
This is a great change. The ghost/HT being immune to fungal would have killed lategame zerg. Now players will have more incentive to focus infested terrans in their egg form, not only bringing another dynamic into fights, but also toning down the infestor without completely changing zerg mid-late composition.
How would that have killed lategame zerg? Ghosts are only good against infestors. HTs are barely a threat to broodlords. You realize zerg has more units than the infestor. Also, no one is going to fucking focus down infested terran eggs in a battle. You attack the units that are attacking you, not eggs.
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I'm quitting this game because I spent so much time making fun of zergs in the thread for the fungal nerf I just can't see them in ladder anymore without feeling insecure. I'm sure you are sad to see me go, Michael Morhaime, but it's your fault.
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it is so sad that blizzard is always only looking at balance statistics(at least they make it look like that) to make their changes instead of realizing that the infestor is awful and too many games are decided by 2-3 good fungals.
a "balanced" game doesnt mean that it is a fun game. it is not fun to all in every game vs zerg as protoss and i doubt it is fun for zerg to turtle every game until broodlord infestor.
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Non of these changes are going to stop Zergs from making 15+ infestors. Infestors need to be changed so that it is good to have a few, but having too many can be detrimental to your army. I don't see Protoss/Terran using 15+ HTs/Ghosts every single game(because that many is detrimental to their army) unlike the Zergs with infestors. Spellcasters should be support units, not the vital/main part of your army composition. Wonder if Blizzard will ever realize this?
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On December 01 2012 01:59 Rojac wrote:
Could you guys try to be critical and say WHY you think these changes are bad, rather than whining about them? Infested Terrans are extremely common. If there are infestors, there are infested terrans. Zerg is getting a nerf, you have yet to see it in action, if you're going to complain about a patch that you haven't even seen yet, then at least try proposing why this is bad and how this won't be enough. Every tournament in the past month proves that infestors are not fool-proof.
It is bad because chain FG on Vikings and Stalkers will be just as OP and boring/ anticlimactic . It is bad because Ravens still take 2 minutes to charge enough energy for a HSM. It is bad because IT take just as many tank shots to kill, will come in just as great a numbers. It's bad because the game has never been uglier and NOW they decide to take baby steps.
They are working on HOTS with no time for WOL, i can see no other reason for this, it's mind boggling really.
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Why won't they just make interceptors immune to fungal? T_T
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On December 01 2012 02:10 Stress wrote:
Non of these changes are going to stop Zergs from making 15+ infestors. Infestors need to be changed so that it is good to have a few, but having too many can be detrimental to your army. I don't see Protoss/Terran using 15+ HTs/Ghosts every single game(because that many is detrimental to their army) unlike the Zergs with infestors. Spellcasters should be support units, not the vital/main part of your army composition. Wonder if Blizzard will ever realize this?
I'm sure they will realize it soon enough because they did when Terrans DID have 15+ ghosts in their army vZ and it was not at all detrimental to their army, actually quite the opposite. So, they nerfed snipe. Oh, and they also realized soon enough that warping in 10 HTs with Amulet wasn't detrimental to the protess, so they nerfed amulet.
It seems as though they have a somewhat decent track record in nerfing broken spellcasters.
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here we go with the global statistics again...
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On December 01 2012 02:19 Billd wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:10 Stress wrote:
Non of these changes are going to stop Zergs from making 15+ infestors. Infestors need to be changed so that it is good to have a few, but having too many can be detrimental to your army. I don't see Protoss/Terran using 15+ HTs/Ghosts every single game(because that many is detrimental to their army) unlike the Zergs with infestors. Spellcasters should be support units, not the vital/main part of your army composition. Wonder if Blizzard will ever realize this? I'm sure they will realize it soon enough because they did when Terrans DID have 15+ ghosts in their army vZ and it was not at all detrimental to their army, actually quite the opposite. So, they nerfed snipe. Oh, and they also realized soon enough that warping in 10 HTs with Amulet wasn't detrimental to the protess, so they nerfed amulet. It seems as though they have a somewhat decent track record in nerfing broken spellcasters.
Changing IT hp to 80 isn't going to fix the problem because it isn't drastic enough. KA and Snipe nerfs were both basically spot on on what needed to be done but they seem to be dancing around the issue, imo, with the Infestor. The only change(s) that will fix the problem is fungal is changed to projectile and a slow debuff instead of immobilize and possibly IT require 50 energy and it spawns 2(this one shouldn't be necessary if fungal is changed like above).
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On December 01 2012 02:02 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 01:55 rd wrote:On December 01 2012 01:52 shivver wrote:
I know you are reading this thread Michael Morhaime
I would suggest that you fire your balance team, and your lead designer while you still have the ability to do so. Make sure you suggest someone better so they aren't left without a balance team for a few weeks afterwards. I know Mike is subscribed to your post history and will jump right on it. I'm certain that as a CEO of blizzard, he is aware of the glaring issues with his balance team and that he should have other people in mind. If he hasn't, well.. I don't know what to tell you really. I'm not in his position and I'm not informed on what's going on the "inside" there. But if you think Dustin Browder and David Kim are the best solution.. I don't know what to tell you once again. Do I have someone to suggest? I haven't researched it so no I don't have anyone to suggest. BUT, if Michael would so kindly support my bank account as he has Dustin's, I'm certain I could provide him with a very substantial substitute for those two who quite honestly.. don't even watch the game.
I am sure he is aware that the balance test map is a test map for non-final changes. I am sure he is also aware that the community freaks out about every change, no matter how minor and always claims DK and DB are worthless. The community is asking for infestors to be nerfed. Blizzard is trying to figure out how much of a nerf is necessary, while keeping the unit still useful. They were always going to go have to test several changes of differening levels impact.
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Wanna see these global statistics,and where are they from.The issue woth Ravens is not the cost of the research.Its the cost of the cast and the starting energy.Storm cost 75 and HTs start with 50.Fungal cost 75 and infestor+upgrade start with instafungal.Missile cost 125 and Raven with upgrade start with 75...WTF??? Two full energy HTs or Infestors can cast two times their spell.Why would the Raven not???
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On December 01 2012 02:04 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:00 rd wrote:On December 01 2012 01:58 Cornix wrote:
I know this will be the unpopular opinion in here but as a protoss I actually really like the infested terran change. Do I still think that fungal needs a change? Absolutely. However, at least for toss, the infested terran egg change makes it just 1 storm to get rid of a batch of IT eggs. That's pretty huge. don't need to focus fire, just storm the biggest batches of eggs, as long as you get more than 3 eggs in the storm you're trading energy well, plus this helps prevent a lot of the IT overruns that happen so often.
On the other hand, please fix fungal blizzard. It doesn't work that way. The eggs still outregen a single storm and have to eat multiple storms for the entire 5 second duration to die before hatching. It'd take way more storms than you're thinking. If ITs are clumped up, 2 storms can take out at least 15. 15 ITs = 375 energy, 2 storms = 150 energy. Also 1 seeker missile can kill the whole lot of clumped ITs. It's not all doom and gloom with respect to ITs, especially in the late game situation. Fungal, on the other hand...
I want to see the face of the guy you just swarmed with IT:s and then told him he should have taken care of your IT:s with seeker missiles xD
Im not necessarely saying that you are wrong in saying terrans can deal with IT:s by using seeker missiles. I dont think i have ever seen a seeker missile been launched at a bunch of IT:s though. With free upgrade for seeker missiles this might actually happen once or twice though.
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On December 01 2012 02:24 Dvriel wrote:
Wanna see these global statistics,and where are they from.The issue woth Ravens is not the cost of the research.Its the cost of the cast and the starting energy.Storm cost 75 and HTs start with 50.Fungal cost 75 and infestor+upgrade start with instafungal.Missile cost 125 and Raven with upgrade start with 75...WTF??? Two full energy HTs or Infestors can cast two times their spell.Why would the Raven not???
zerglings and zealots are melee, why aren't marines?
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On December 01 2012 02:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:24 Dvriel wrote:
Wanna see these global statistics,and where are they from.The issue woth Ravens is not the cost of the research.Its the cost of the cast and the starting energy.Storm cost 75 and HTs start with 50.Fungal cost 75 and infestor+upgrade start with instafungal.Missile cost 125 and Raven with upgrade start with 75...WTF??? Two full energy HTs or Infestors can cast two times their spell.Why would the Raven not??? zerglings and zealots are melee, why aren't marines?
Because marines are jerks, dancing away from my zealots who just want a straight up fight.
Because HSM does more damage that storm and fungle, can't miss and chases the unit across the map. I am not saying that HSM is great or anything, but there are valid reasons for it costing more than storm.
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On December 01 2012 02:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2012 02:24 Dvriel wrote:
Wanna see these global statistics,and where are they from.The issue woth Ravens is not the cost of the research.Its the cost of the cast and the starting energy.Storm cost 75 and HTs start with 50.Fungal cost 75 and infestor+upgrade start with instafungal.Missile cost 125 and Raven with upgrade start with 75...WTF??? Two full energy HTs or Infestors can cast two times their spell.Why would the Raven not??? zerglings and zealots are melee, why aren't marines?
Zergling cost 0.5 supply,Zealot 2,marine 1?
The three casters got similar status,but very different in only one thing and its the energy used for its main cast.Surely SC is not about three races with same units,but different face.Anyway there are many similar things and uses of units that are similar and sometimes almost the same
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Why are you guys also ignoring that the part that says statistics also from top level of play? Infestor is certainly a noob stomper because of its ease of use, but in the highest level the person that plays better always wins. It's balanced as it is, good call by Blizzard not to cave into people looking for excuses.
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I think it's damn time blizzard admits that they dun goofed wings of liberty design. They basically need to view the whole wings of liberty process as a beta and make heart of the swarm the real game release.
> no FF on sentry
> no colossus in favor of a reaver like unit
> no brood lord
> no corruptor
> nerf infestor into something that you wouldn't want more than like a handful of.
> terran is pretty cool.
Actually i'm pretty sure terran mirror matches are the things I enjoy watching the mos right now... which is pretty damn sad.
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EPT
