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Stop derailing this thread, get back on topic. |
On November 26 2012 04:37 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2012 19:38 zezamer wrote:On November 25 2012 14:43 xtyxtbx wrote:
All because LoL is free it's now the biggest game, it's so sad that all of it's supporters don't realize that if SC2 was free, it would kill LoL in a second. Such a shame to see a game like LoL get so big and take so many great SC2 players. GL Inori. Don't get me wrong I like LoL as a fun game to play with friends, but other than that, it's pretty much a joke. SC2 fails because it's not fun. Lol/Dota is. Video games are supposed to be fun... I doubt being f2p would help SC2 that much That is your opinion, not a statement of fact. Many other people think the exact opposite about SC2/MOBAs.
I don't have any statistical evidence supporting what I'm about to say, but I would think that playing LoL and MOBAs can be a bit less stressful than playing StarCraft, since StarCraft requires so much multitasking and can be a bit less interesting to learn after you have learned the basics. By that I mean that when you learn the basics of LoL or DotA, you learn a few champions and the different roles, then there is a plethora of champions you haven't even played yet that you can try. With StarCraft, you learn a basic build order, then you have to go find a new build order and work out all the kinks of it. Personally I enjoy both experiences, but LoL is a bit more inviting for players who aren't as dedicated to the game, I think.
And to be honest, I think that Blizzard has done a pretty terrible job of improving that experience of first learning the game, which is a serious problem for a game that requires you to be somewhat dedicated to it. Not having a good, fun, interesting breakthrough stage for players going from the basics to being really invested in the game is not vital for all games, but it is vital for the sort of game people want StarCraft 2 to be. For example, Call of Duty does a pretty horrid job of getting people from liking Call of Duty into being top tier Call of Duty players who not only play the game, but think a lot about it too. That's okay though, because the audience which Call of Duty is tailored to doesn't want to be that involved with the strategy and theory aspect of a game, but rather they just want to shoot people.
Riot Games--and possibly just the MOBA genre--has just done a better job than Blizzard did at getting people from understanding the basics of StarCraft into really playing StarCraft. There are a lot of reasons why I think that LoL is growing and StarCraft 2 isn't really, but I think that the number one reason I would say is that Riot Games has done a far better job than Blizzard. Blizzard doesn't promote streamers or tournaments enough. If I log onto League of Legends, Riot goes out of their way to say "Instead of playing out game, why don't you go watch better people play?" Blizzard does nothing of the sort, with an occasional message that says GSL finals are coming up. But yeah, I would say that StarCraft 2 isn't necessarily better or worse than League of Legends, but Riot Games is better than Blizzard.
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On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control.
Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out.
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On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out.
What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over.
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On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over.
You're acting as if I said the maximum skill level consists of players who are trash at other video games, so they switched to LoL. That is not what I am saying at all however, the mechanical skill level is guaranteed to be lower you are always controlling near 100% of your units at one time. Teamwork as in calling out what you see, coordinating a gank by saying attack X, and stating which items you are building, is not rocket science, though, yes there isn't teamwork in SC2. My point about the best being able to be beaten was more about time and ability to beat the best. I don't think inori would ever beat MVP at his best in a Bo7, where as LoL with a team factor could capitalize on their opponents weakness and take down the higher rated team. I am not actually a LoL fan, haven't played the game really, but I did play Dota and HON, I appreciate the skill involved with playing those games and the team aspect and constant engagement with your hero.
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On November 26 2012 04:46 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I was surprised that he wouldn't take a really fresh start with Dota 2. I understand League has something of a bandwagon going on, but Dota 2 seems like a game with more potential for a pro to come onto the scene and make a name for himself. League seems just as saturated, if not more-so than SC2.
Destiny is a stremer not a tournament progamer.He needs views on stream.momentarily lol is the best place for that.
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On November 26 2012 05:45 Mrpopescu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 04:46 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I was surprised that he wouldn't take a really fresh start with Dota 2. I understand League has something of a bandwagon going on, but Dota 2 seems like a game with more potential for a pro to come onto the scene and make a name for himself. League seems just as saturated, if not more-so than SC2. Destiny is a stremer not a tournament progamer.He needs views on stream.momentarily lol is the best place for that.
I think you missed the subject of this thread being Inori, and not Destiny.
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On November 26 2012 05:53 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 05:45 Mrpopescu wrote:On November 26 2012 04:46 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I was surprised that he wouldn't take a really fresh start with Dota 2. I understand League has something of a bandwagon going on, but Dota 2 seems like a game with more potential for a pro to come onto the scene and make a name for himself. League seems just as saturated, if not more-so than SC2. Destiny is a stremer not a tournament progamer.He needs views on stream.momentarily lol is the best place for that. I think you missed the subject of this thread being Inori, and not Destiny.
Sorry man youre right.Was coming form the destiny posts.My bad.
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It's funny to see how quickly a thread can get derailed. ^_^
Best of luck to Inori with his LoL endeavors, I'm sure he will excel.
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On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over.
Riot took DOTA, flattened out the learning curve and gave us LoL. I'm sorry but to those who play DOTA or somewhat follow the pro scene, LoL clearly comes off as a game which is easy to play. No one is being an imbecile, RIOT wanted their game to be "easier"..
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On November 26 2012 06:51 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote:On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over. Riot took DOTA, flattened out the learning curve and gave us LoL. I'm sorry but to those who play DOTA or somewhat follow the pro scene, LoL clearly comes off as a game which is easy to play. No one is being an imbecile, RIOT wanted their game to be "easier"..
Yeh even LoL Pros said that its skill ceilling isnt that high.
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On November 26 2012 05:14 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote:On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over. You're acting as if I said the maximum skill level consists of players who are trash at other video games, so they switched to LoL. That is not what I am saying at all however, the mechanical skill level is guaranteed to be lower you are always controlling near 100% of your units at one time. Teamwork as in calling out what you see, coordinating a gank by saying attack X, and stating which items you are building, is not rocket science, though, yes there isn't teamwork in SC2. My point about the best being able to be beaten was more about time and ability to beat the best. I don't think inori would ever beat MVP at his best in a Bo7, where as LoL with a team factor could capitalize on their opponents weakness and take down the higher rated team. I am not actually a LoL fan, haven't played the game really, but I did play Dota and HON, I appreciate the skill involved with playing those games and the team aspect and constant engagement with your hero.
What I am acting like is a rational human-being trying to reason with an irrational person. People who talk about skill ceilings are so ridiculous, because they are a theoretical thing that there is no real way of measuring, and completely impractical that anyone will ever reach. Look at Brood War, Boxer is a bonjwa, but he never hit the skill ceiling, because after him came Nada, and after Nada along came iloveoov and after oov came sAviOr and after Ma Bonjwa everybody's favorite Flash, and even Flash was never unbeatable, and when you talk about StarCraft 2, I'm not even sure that Mvp is quite at the level of dominance that those players were at, so he hasn't hit the skill ceiling either. And if you knew anything about League of Legends, it's that people are getting better and better, exploring the game in new ways and learning new champions, and they haven't hit the skill ceiling, and no one ever will. Skill ceiling debate is so pointless because it's all theoretical, and it's even more pointless when you are comparing games that are based around different skills.
There is a lot more to teamwork than what you said, and the fact that you have never really played the game should reflect the comments you make about it; don't make generic comments about a game you don't even play. For example, if you knew anything about LoL you would know that the World Champions, Taipei Assassins communicate and act as a unit incredibly well. It's more than just screaming out which champion to target and all focusing that person--Stanley, TPA's top is not the best mechanically, but if you watch him, he knows precisely when to stay in lane and farm/push and when to leave to prep for a team fight. It's a mixture of both game sense and teamwork, and it's a large part in why they beat M5 in the semifinals and went on to win the tournament. It's a bit specific, but if you play top lane like it's an island, and never leave--which is something that even high level LoL pros do--then you will get beat overall by top laners like Stanley.
But what you are saying, about Inori never beating Mvp at his best in a Bo7 is probably true--you provided a situation in which the absolute best player playing his best in a long match. If you provided the same circumstances for League of Legends, then that might be true. Granted, the pro scene is still developing as opposed to StarCraft 2, so there is no defined "Mvp," but part of that is the newly emerging Korean and Chinese scenes, which for a while were secluded from EU and NA. But if you ignore Korea and China, M5 is sort of like the Mvp, and they were for a while. There were teams that could beat them, but if they are playing their absolute best in a tournament Bo5 setting, it is highly unlikely. M5 is actually even more like Mvp because they have that "Game Genie" aspect to them, where they know things and whip out stuff that nobody else has ever even thought about, and while other teams start to use those strategies, they're moving on to the new thing. But right now it's hard to pinpoint a team that is the absolute best just because there is not enough data. As we have more interactions between the Asian and Western scenes we'll have a better idea of who is the "Mvp" of LoL.
And all this is from somebody who has been following e-Sports for a long time, played StarCraft 2 a lot and at a decent level (mid Masters for a while), and is now playing League of Legends trying to get to a higher level. Quit using phrases like "skill ceiling" and stuff that means next to nothing when applied to a real life situation; look at Destiny, he took games and even series off of top level Koreans like Bomber in StarCraft 2 (the far more difficult game, as you say), but he can't even get into Gold League Elo in League of Legends.
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On November 26 2012 07:29 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 06:51 SupLilSon wrote:On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote:On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over. Riot took DOTA, flattened out the learning curve and gave us LoL. I'm sorry but to those who play DOTA or somewhat follow the pro scene, LoL clearly comes off as a game which is easy to play. No one is being an imbecile, RIOT wanted their game to be "easier".. Yeh even LoL Pros said that its skill ceilling isnt that high. You do realize when you use the term skill ceiling in relation to what you have quoted you are 100% incorrect in it's definition. What you are looking for is skill floor as that has to do with making it easier to enter the game.
Skill ceiling on the other hand has gotten sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo misused on this forum in regards with the LoL/Dota comparison. It's not appropriate to really talk about skill ceiling with games like LoL/Dota,it would fit more with something akin to Chess, Checkers, or Tic-tac-toe.
The bottom line here is NO ONE has ever hit a skill ceiling in "e-sports" titles, they have only ever approached them.
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On November 26 2012 07:46 DonKey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:29 D4V3Z02 wrote:On November 26 2012 06:51 SupLilSon wrote:On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote:On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over. Riot took DOTA, flattened out the learning curve and gave us LoL. I'm sorry but to those who play DOTA or somewhat follow the pro scene, LoL clearly comes off as a game which is easy to play. No one is being an imbecile, RIOT wanted their game to be "easier".. Yeh even LoL Pros said that its skill ceilling isnt that high. You do realize when you use the term skill ceiling in relation to what you have quoted you is 100% incorrect in it's definition. What you are looking for is skill floor as that has to do with making it easier to enter the game. Skill ceiling on the other hand, which btw has gotten sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo misused on this forum in regards with the LoL/Dota comparison. It's not appropriate to really talk about skill ceiling with games like LoL/Dota,it would fit more with something akin to Chess, Checkers, or Tic-tac-toe. The bottom line here is NO ONE has ever hit a skill ceiling in "e-sports" titles, they have only ever approached them.
This is what I'm trying to say in a more concise manner; stop using the term skill ceiling because it's practically meaningless.
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On November 26 2012 07:49 The Final Boss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:46 DonKey_ wrote:On November 26 2012 07:29 D4V3Z02 wrote:On November 26 2012 06:51 SupLilSon wrote:On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote:On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over. Riot took DOTA, flattened out the learning curve and gave us LoL. I'm sorry but to those who play DOTA or somewhat follow the pro scene, LoL clearly comes off as a game which is easy to play. No one is being an imbecile, RIOT wanted their game to be "easier".. Yeh even LoL Pros said that its skill ceilling isnt that high. You do realize when you use the term skill ceiling in relation to what you have quoted you is 100% incorrect in it's definition. What you are looking for is skill floor as that has to do with making it easier to enter the game. Skill ceiling on the other hand, which btw has gotten sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo misused on this forum in regards with the LoL/Dota comparison. It's not appropriate to really talk about skill ceiling with games like LoL/Dota,it would fit more with something akin to Chess, Checkers, or Tic-tac-toe. The bottom line here is NO ONE has ever hit a skill ceiling in "e-sports" titles, they have only ever approached them. This is what I'm trying to say in a more concise manner; stop using the term skill ceiling because it's practically meaningless.
I don't think you fully understood what you were responding to. Noobskills was simply saying that because DOTA/LOL are team games, a single player's mechanics are going to have an overall lower direct impact on the games outcome compared to a 1v1 scenario like SC. Teamwork is not a skill, there is no mechanical component to team work that can be quantified.
And while I agree that people throw around the term skill ceiling a bit too casually, it has not always misused in this thread. Yea, the skill ceiling is only theoretical but that does not mean it is not meaningful. There are numerous reasons to hypothesize that LoL's overall skill ceiling is much lower than DOTA... removal of denies, fog spots in LoL vs trees in DOTA, night/day mechanic in DOTA, item and hero differentiation, etc. Sure, it's the internet, people can always say "nuh uh" and deny but if you follow a logical thought process, LoL has a lower skill ceiling than DOTA.
Edit: And the part about Destiny being decent at SC2 and terrible at LoL is contradictory to the rest of your post. You yourself assert that the 2 games require different skill sets... so you can't really correlate Destiny's transition to anything outside of his ability to learn new skills.
European Football is more demanding motor mechanically and motor skill-wise than American Football, I don't think anyone would disagree. Yet it would be silly to think that Messi could join the NFL and have any impact whatsoever... or almost any other Football player for that matter. Why? The majority of their skills have no basis in the much simpler game of American Football... Such is the relationship between DOTA/LoL
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QFT @ Final Boss & Donkey.
The glorification of basic tasks being difficult to do is just so strange. What the hell, my game is better because instead of practicing running you first have to learn to kangaroo hop? Er, yes sure. Staying interesting at a high level is important, that is a damn sure thing, but interesting at a high level = difficult to play - especially in the sense SC2's macro crutches were done, in the way Brood War is, in the way many fighting games are - is not even close to true. I'd much rather a game be simple to learn so I can hook my friends into the awesomeness! See, for example, Smash. Much less infuriating to learn than most modern fighters, yet even Brawl (which for a fact has a lower mechanical skill ceiling than Melee, which has a very high one) stays interesting in high level play.
@SupLiiSon
Teamwork is not a skill? That statement is absurd. Also, added complexity in the form of more mechanics and rules does not automatically equate to a higher skill ceiling, far from it. Those kinds of things are all too often responsible for annoying gimmickry that ruins a game. Or they're stuff that's just plain irritating to newcomers and irrelevant to high level people once learned.
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On November 26 2012 08:33 Coffee Zombie wrote:
QFT @ Final Boss & Donkey.
The glorification of basic tasks being difficult to do is just so strange. What the hell, my game is better because instead of practicing running you first have to learn to kangaroo hop? Er, yes sure. Staying interesting at a high level is important, that is a damn sure thing, but interesting at a high level = difficult to play - especially in the sense SC2's macro crutches were done, in the way Brood War is, in the way many fighting games are - is not even close to true. I'd much rather a game be simple to learn so I can hook my friends into the awesomeness! See, for example, Smash. Much less infuriating to learn than most modern fighters, yet even Brawl (which for a fact has a lower mechanical skill ceiling than Melee, which has a very high one) stays interesting in high level play.
@SupLiiSon
Teamwork is not a skill? That statement is absurd. Also, added complexity in the form of more mechanics and rules does not automatically equate to a higher skill ceiling, far from it. Those kinds of things are all too often responsible for annoying gimmickry that ruins a game. Or they're stuff that's just plain irritating to newcomers and irrelevant to high level people once learned.
I mean teamwork is not a skill in relation to one person but is moreso a combination of factors, including all the team members personalities, backgrounds, preferred playstyles, etc. Yea, teamwork can be strengthened by practicing together but there are tons of extraneous factors that contribute to team synergy.
And are you really going to call denying and juking through trees gimmicks that ruin games? Please watch a game of professional DOTA. Please. To you they are irritating, to me they are fascinating. And you are dead wrong if you think stuff like this is irrelevant at high level play.
Edit:
I don't know much about the fighter scene but wasnt SSBM considered much better competitively than SSBB?
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Why does this discussion always arise when LoL is mentioned? :/
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I only read the first page of the comments in this thread but for me it's quite logical. Both games are probably just as hard to become a successful pro player in (at least in Korea) but I can imagine it being way more fun to practice a game like LoL than SC2. In LoL you can have a lot of fun with your teammates and they can motivate you etc, whereas in SC2 everything is on you. Maybe that's just me, but I'd much rather be a professional in a team game than in a 1v1 game.
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On November 26 2012 08:15 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2012 07:49 The Final Boss wrote:On November 26 2012 07:46 DonKey_ wrote:On November 26 2012 07:29 D4V3Z02 wrote:On November 26 2012 06:51 SupLilSon wrote:On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote:On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote:On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote:
I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over. Riot took DOTA, flattened out the learning curve and gave us LoL. I'm sorry but to those who play DOTA or somewhat follow the pro scene, LoL clearly comes off as a game which is easy to play. No one is being an imbecile, RIOT wanted their game to be "easier".. Yeh even LoL Pros said that its skill ceilling isnt that high. You do realize when you use the term skill ceiling in relation to what you have quoted you is 100% incorrect in it's definition. What you are looking for is skill floor as that has to do with making it easier to enter the game. Skill ceiling on the other hand, which btw has gotten sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo misused on this forum in regards with the LoL/Dota comparison. It's not appropriate to really talk about skill ceiling with games like LoL/Dota,it would fit more with something akin to Chess, Checkers, or Tic-tac-toe. The bottom line here is NO ONE has ever hit a skill ceiling in "e-sports" titles, they have only ever approached them. This is what I'm trying to say in a more concise manner; stop using the term skill ceiling because it's practically meaningless. I don't think you fully understood what you were responding to. Noobskills was simply saying that because DOTA/LOL are team games, a single player's mechanics are going to have an overall lower direct impact on the games outcome compared to a 1v1 scenario like SC. Teamwork is not a skill, there is no mechanical component to team work that can be quantified. And while I agree that people throw around the term skill ceiling a bit too casually, it has not always misused in this thread. Yea, the skill ceiling is only theoretical but that does not mean it is not meaningful. There are numerous reasons to hypothesize that LoL's overall skill ceiling is much lower than DOTA... removal of denies, fog spots in LoL vs trees in DOTA, night/day mechanic in DOTA, item and hero differentiation, etc. Sure, it's the internet, people can always say "nuh uh" and deny but if you follow a logical thought process, LoL has a lower skill ceiling than DOTA. Edit: And the part about Destiny being decent at SC2 and terrible at LoL is contradictory to the rest of your post. You yourself assert that the 2 games require different skill sets... so you can't really correlate Destiny's transition to anything outside of his ability to learn new skills. European Football is more demanding motor mechanically and motor skill-wise than American Football, I don't think anyone would disagree. Yet it would be silly to think that Messi could join the NFL and have any impact whatsoever... or almost any other Football player for that matter. Why? The majority of their skills have no basis in the much simpler game of American Football... Such is the relationship between DOTA/LoL
I am just very confused why we discuss skill ceiling between games when it is something that is not going to be achieved; especially for team games where the amount of variables that determine who will win and lose are no longer quantifiable due to many existing.
I'm not debating that Dota 2 or LoL has a higher skill ceiling because that argument is irrelevant. In fact the only way I could ever see it realistically being achieved is through AI. Remember to hit the skill ceiling you would need to make every possible correct decision for a game. To say a human can accomplish this in a game where just simple positioning of a "game piece" (hero/champ/unit) on the map changes in less than a second, multiple times for everyone playing is foolish.
On another note why is it that people conclude that higher skill ceiling = more competitive game. The key thing to remember here is that complication of a process doesn't make it more competitive. What makes a game more competitive is increasing the player base, because a competitive game in itself is just one in which many play it.
To conclude people have far too many misconceptions of what a game with high skill ceiling is. Always speaking as though it's number one thing all games should be.
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On November 26 2012 08:55 Kyokushin wrote:
I only read the first page of the comments in this thread but for me it's quite logical. Both games are probably just as hard to become a successful pro player in (at least in Korea) but I can imagine it being way more fun to practice a game like LoL than SC2. In LoL you can have a lot of fun with your teammates and they can motivate you etc, whereas in SC2 everything is on you. Maybe that's just me, but I'd much rather be a professional in a team game than in a 1v1 game.
I dunno majority of feelings but I know I would ratehr 1v1 then a team game.
The reason being is I hate having to rely on teamates in competitive games. In 1v1 at least when you lose it's your fault, not your friends, not your teamates, just yours. In games like LoL/Dota/etc I imagine lots of rage comes from players raging at their allies being shit or whatever.
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EPT
