EPTGoodbye, Inori. You never got your GSL victory.
TSL_inori retires from SC2 and switches to League
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
Stop derailing this thread, get back on topic. | ||
Fionn
United States23455 Posts
Goodbye, Inori. You never got your GSL victory.
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote: I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. | ||
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wigwamfan
85 Posts
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote: but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is a lot harder in a lot of ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Just....... no... | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:20 JonIrenicus wrote: He did the best choice. . He would be a fool not to go full time on lol. Sc2 is fucked up, and LoL is constantly growing. This is the why no one can criticize also Destiny for the choice he made. Well duh, when you have no results in over a year yeah you should switch games. It's why destiny switched, he hasn't had any good results in sc2 like ever (I am not counting show matches/online tournaments), every pro/semi pro that has retired has not had results in a year +. Still hilarious how people say this means sc2 is dying because pros who don't have results in a year retire lol. Good luck to inori! | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:24 JonIrenicus wrote: People inside this forum will say no, because they are heavy fanboys, so I advise you to not believe anyone and just try LoL yourself and find if this is true or not. IF anything the pro scene if SC2 is more predictable. As in your actually can tell if you have a shot or not. The lol community is much newer and less established so you might have a better shot there. @blade55555: the people who are leaving can't even be considered "professionals" anymore, they are Grandmaster players, nothing else. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:20 Crushgroove wrote: Will be missed in team league. Oh well, makes room for the new greats. Just....... no... i'm not saying LoL is a harder game. What I said is it's harder in a lot of ways, I guess I should have worded it: "It's harder in other ways" because there is a team element which adds randomness into the game that you can't individually control. And I was asking a question, because LoL seems to be a lot bigger which begs the question that it probably is just as hard to be pro in LoL, or any game for that matter. but for the sake of it, don't even respond to me because it's not worth derailing the thread. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:24 blade55555 wrote: Well duh, when you have no results in over a year yeah you should switch games. It's why destiny switched, he hasn't had any good results in sc2 like ever (I am not counting show matches/online tournaments), every pro/semi pro that has retired has not had results in a year +. Still hilarious how people say this means sc2 is dying because pros who don't have results in a year retire lol. Good luck to inori! But that's not to say they'll ever have results in league or another game. Their mechanics are good, but it's gonna take about a year, and who knows how good the pros now will be by then. Considering how many people play league, I don't think most of these player's chances aren't that great. Destiny has enough mechanics for a game like league but he still sucks more than most of the people who browse the subforum here on TL. | ||
GTR
51394 Posts
min/coca/puzzle/sc haven't made a splash at all yet. remember the bw players brave and grape who quit khan to play league? non-existent. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:24 blade55555 wrote: Well duh, when you have no results in over a year yeah you should switch games. It's why destiny switched, he hasn't had any good results in sc2 like ever (I am not counting show matches/online tournaments), every pro/semi pro that has retired has not had results in a year +. Still hilarious how people say this means sc2 is dying because pros who don't have results in a year retire lol. Good luck to inori! It's not even anything new, people have been retiring from sc2 for years now. People don't seriously think guys like Ensnare or Anypro are still actively practicing right? It's just a natural progression for people who simply don't have what it takes to hang with the established pro's. Inori had one of the worst GSTL records of any player who played more then 5 games, and i guess it finally took its toll. I hope he finds more success in League. | ||
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:28 GTR wrote: it's just as hard to break into the lol pro scene as it is for sc2, there are so many established teams right now in lol in korea that it would be really difficult to break into the scene in such short notice. min/coca/puzzle/sc haven't made a splash at all yet. remember the bw players brave and grape who quit khan to play league? non-existent. my point exactly. I think if anything, if LoL makes these players happy, then they should play it. | ||
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Sumahi
Guam5609 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:20 JonIrenicus wrote: He did the best choice. . He would be a fool not to go full time on lol. Sc2 is fucked up, and LoL is constantly growing. This is the why no one can criticize also Destiny for the choice he made. It's not like Destiny is a professional in LoL or anything, I heard his stream numbers are quite bad nowadays as well ;o | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
with SC2 for Koreans, it's mostly needing to win tournaments or consistently placing high to earn some income with LoL, it has the potentially of at least supporting teams via contracts like BW since LoL is blowing up in Korea. in the OGN LoL tournament pre-final matches, LoL draws audience sizes as big if not bigger than recent GSL finals. while KESPA teams are currently paying their SC2 players salaries still, I think a lot is going to change when more and more players start to have their contracts expire and KESPA teams needing to seriously evaluate their market exposure and potential ROI. SC2 just isn't big in Korea, and SC2 needs a lot more multitask and micro injected into it to make it become a better spectator game. unfortunately, it's really up to Blizzard to make the necessary changes. | ||
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Azurues
Malaysia5612 Posts
oh wait. good luck to Inori though. | ||
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Laryleprakon
New Zealand9496 Posts
With how many top Kespa players came into the scene this year, people leaving is always going to happen imo | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:30 JonIrenicus wrote: I confused Inori for Symbol if I must be sincere. Thank you for clarifying that he had almost no results, you made me search him on liquipedia. On the other hand, he did a good choice anyway. Destiny didn't retire for the results, or at least I think so. He didn't need to have results, to sustain himself or his family. He just needed a good load of viewers. Oh yeah that's quiet a difference. If symbol retired that would be very, very surprising xD. | ||
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Caliber
United States598 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:28 GTR wrote: it's just as hard to break into the lol pro scene as it is for sc2, there are so many established teams right now in lol in korea that it would be really difficult to break into the scene in such short notice. min/coca/puzzle/sc haven't made a splash at all yet. remember the bw players brave and grape who quit khan to play league? non-existent. I'm finding this strange as well, along with destiny. Even if you buy into all the "sc2 is dead and everyone are moving on to lol and they are making a million dollars per day in that game" then where are the people that moved to lol? I havn't heard a dammn thing about anyone who moved from SC2/SC:BW to LOL yet. Have not seem them once, ever, in any competition. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:26 emc wrote: i'm not saying LoL is a harder game. What I said is it's harder in a lot of ways, I guess I should have worded it: "It's harder in other ways" because there is a team element which adds randomness into the game that you can't individually control. And I was asking a question, because LoL seems to be a lot bigger which begs the question that it probably is just as hard to be pro in LoL, or any game for that matter. but for the sake of it, don't even respond to me because it's not worth derailing the thread. If I had to guess, LoL is that much bigger because one; Mobas dont need the same mechanical skills sc2 requires, its more "fun" to be a casual player in mobas (LoL, HoN, DotA) because u can still do what the pros do, dominate with heroes on your level, and its of course easier on a lower level, of course the randomness in mobas from teammates is a factor (it makes me absolutely hate the game... I hate it when others fuck up and I have to suffer, which is why I always want to play a carrying role (not carry, a carrying role, eg solo mid a heavy ganker etc etc that doesnt rely as much on others not screwing up) Mobas are very easy to get into and can be played completely without teamwork on lower levels. on a higher level, mobas are really fun when you reach that level where u know everyone is a capable player but until then, its horrible. Its not as hard being a pro in these games because its a team that gets rewarded, not only one person, and if your strong qualities are strategies and mindgames rather than multitasking and mechanics, mobas are great for you, and thats where I'd place destiny, hes very innovating and unorthodox, but thats it. | ||
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YoucriedWolf
Sweden1456 Posts
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:25 Musicus wrote: I can see Idra's smile lol. My thoughts exactly. All we need is for Inca to officially retire and all will be well and good in the world. | ||
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:20 JonIrenicus wrote: He did the best choice. . He would be a fool not to go full time on lol. Sc2 is fucked up, and LoL is constantly growing. This is the why no one can criticize also Destiny for the choice he made. Sc2 is by far the biggest rts game. It's like a top gymnastic playing football because more people play it... it makes absolutely no sense. Maybe he didn't want to practice more than 2 hours a day tho, then i understand a switch to such a game. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:40 YoucriedWolf wrote: Goodbye Inori, I will always remember you... For being awsome at wc3. Probably why he moved on to lol, and should had done in the first place  | ||
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Destro
Netherlands1206 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:20 JonIrenicus wrote: He did the best choice. . He would be a fool not to go full time on lol. Sc2 is fucked up, and LoL is constantly growing. This is the why no one can criticize also Destiny for the choice he made. rofl this post is so bad. I can't say for inori, but destiny just wants $$$$ its pretty fucking sad that a sport in its infancy is already ruined by money. any player playing for money and not enjoyment/glory/championships is fucking DOOMED. I really don't mind all the irrelevant players switching to LoL, which is just a sea of irrelevancy anyways. but hey, they have sweeeeeet skins. | ||
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Fusilero
United Kingdom50293 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:36 Integra wrote: I'm finding this strange as well, along with destiny. Even if you buy into all the "sc2 is dead and everyone are moving on to lol and they are making a million dollars per day in that game" then where are the people that moved to lol? I havn't heard a dammn thing about anyone who moved from SC2/SC:BW to LOL yet. Have not seem them once, ever, in any competition. The only SC player with success is tazza from way back he jungles for sword now | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:32 udgnim wrote: both SC2 and LoL is hard to make it big as a progamer making sufficient money with SC2 for Koreans, it's mostly needing to win tournaments or consistently placing high to earn some income with LoL, it has the potentially of at least supporting teams via contracts like BW since LoL is blowing up in Korea. in the OGN LoL tournament pre-final matches, LoL draws audience sizes as big if not bigger than recent GSL finals. while KESPA teams are currently paying their SC2 players salaries still, I think a lot is going to change when more and more players start to have their contracts expire and KESPA teams needing to seriously evaluate their market exposure and potential ROI. SC2 just isn't big in Korea, and SC2 needs a lot more multitask and micro injected into it to make it become a better spectator game. unfortunately, it's really up to Blizzard to make the necessary changes. You have no idea what you are talking about in the last part at least that is not why LoL has more viewers than SC2. | ||
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Irave
United States9965 Posts
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
Competition in SC2 is so much bigger for a way smaller reward. | ||
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TR
2320 Posts
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RuMCaKe
United States559 Posts
Hes also an awesome guy, and anyone that ever had the chance to get to know him would always root for him. Gogo inori~ Fighting~ | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:44 NovemberstOrm wrote: You have no idea what you are talking about in the last part at least that is not why LoL has more viewers than SC2. that part is directed solely at SC2 and not related to LoL at all you really like the death ball style in many SC2 games along with anti-micro abilities like fungal and FF? | ||
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UnKooL
Korea (South)1667 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
It's like Football player switching Basket Ball... Just because you were good in one sport doesn't mean that it will translate directly to the next. Just say you retire from SC2, try the game out and maybe you are gonna be good. I just feel that this statement implies that you are guaranteed do be succesful in something that is very different from what you did well in. | ||
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
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MrMercuG
Netherlands2389 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:24 blade55555 wrote: Well duh, when you have no results in over a year yeah you should switch games. It's why destiny switched, he hasn't had any good results in sc2 like ever (I am not counting show matches/online tournaments), every pro/semi pro that has retired has not had results in a year +. Still hilarious how people say this means sc2 is dying because pros who don't have results in a year retire lol. Good luck to inori! To be fair CoCa and Puzzle were quite good at this game, lol. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:28 GTR wrote: it's just as hard to break into the lol pro scene as it is for sc2, there are so many established teams right now in lol in korea that it would be really difficult to break into the scene in such short notice. min/coca/puzzle/sc haven't made a splash at all yet. remember the bw players brave and grape who quit khan to play league? non-existent. Its Karma. And wow Grape moved to league? When? He seemed like a promising BW player at the time. | ||
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BgSBendeR
Canada170 Posts
That's why no one will ever "dominate" the scene completely. User was warned for this post | ||
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:00 BgSBendeR wrote: SC2 is just a badly designed game. That's why no one will ever "dominate" the scene completely. Then don't play it and don't post in sc2 forums. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:58 MrMercuG wrote: To be fair CoCa and Puzzle were quite good at this game, lol. They were but notice they didn't have results in the past year. Coca never really recovered from when slayers forced him out of GSL. Puzzle I am semi surprised but I imagine his switch had a lot to due with slayers disbanding and not wanting to bother finding a team since he wouldn't be playing in GSTL or going to foreign events. Dunno puzzle is the only one I was really surprised at. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:00 BgSBendeR wrote: SC2 is just a badly designed game. That's why no one will ever "dominate" the scene completely. And this is relevant to someone retiring who never got further then the 2nd round of Code A..how? | ||
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Aserrin
Uruguay231 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:00 BgSBendeR wrote: SC2 is just a badly designed game. That's why no one will ever "dominate" the scene completely. Did you know Flash wouldn't have dominated the scene if there were as many tournaments as in sc2? It would be physically impossible to do this. People like you seem to forget that, playing 2 tournaments + proleague was taxing to the players in bw who played in MSL/OSL and proleague (before MSL was gone). If they had to do travel AND play in lots of foreign tournaments I can bet you anything Flash wouldn't have looked as dominant as he was. Hard to have a dominate figure when there are major tournaments a couple weeks every month it seems ^^. | ||
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raVenwomBat
Germany15 Posts
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algue
France1436 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:10 raVenwomBat wrote: Imo, this is the real "elephant in the room". I think something drastic has to happen in order for SCII to catch back up to LoL. I'm really concerned about the recent development... LoL is no competition of sc2... other than perhaps gaining sponsorships, which doesn't seem like a problem atm at all. People don't understand it's a different genre or something? And one that will have more players due to the fact that rts games are harder to get into than any other genre, that's a simple fact. Especially these days where people want everything simplified, hence running around with 1 unit that can do shiny stuff is more appealing than managing a complete base and army. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
BLIZZARD do something ! | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:10 raVenwomBat wrote: Imo, this is the real "elephant in the room". I think something drastic has to happen in order for SCII to catch back up to LoL. I'm really concerned about the recent development... Inori has a grand total of 0 wins all time in the GSL, he's an irrelevant player and of course he's going to be phased out and forced to retire eventually. What he does after he retires doesn't matter, he thinks he has a shot at LoL? Go ahead and try but like GTR mentioned It's just as hard to break out in LoL as it is in sc2. It's because of the Kespa players moving in, leaving less room for players like Inori in the GSL every season. Expect many more retirements in the coming months. They're not retiring because the game is dying, they are retiring because they can't be successful and it makes no sense to continue trying. | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:16 CoR wrote: how can guys say lol is HARDER then sc2 and not mean it trolling, i mean ... i see little kids play it on high level BLIZZARD do something ! I think you would be surprised how good children are at gaming, in sc2 as well. They seem to adapt significantly faster than we "old" people do. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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Damnight
Germany222 Posts
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sharky246
1197 Posts
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sHt_
France239 Posts
Claiming an over 35 millions active players base and, while having an embed video player in the client for every event they have and ONLY geting twice the numbers of sc2 seems pretty ridiculous, considering the sc2 player base is something around 9/10 times smaller.. (not forgetting the fact that the prize money for LoL tournaments come mostly directly from riot himself) on topic : Good luck to him, even if i gotta admit i've never heard much of him ;D edit : http://i.imgur.com/Rwyq2.png Stream numbers from yesterday DH, seeeee, only 15k+ than us, sooo bad :D | ||
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elKaDor
Sweden376 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:44 NovemberstOrm wrote: You have no idea what you are talking about in the last part at least that is not why LoL has more viewers than SC2. No its not, its just that blizzard completely failed making sc2, its even boring to watch the tournaments atm and no im not an LoL player | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:23 sHt_ wrote: About the numbers and all, i am the only one that find LoL tournaments viewer count really shitty? (shitty as in if i was riot i'd be ashamed of myself that is). Claiming an over 35 millions active players base and, while having an embed video player in the client for every event they have and ONLY geting twice the numbers of sc2 seems pretty ridiculous, considering the sc2 player base is something around 9/10 times smaller.. (not forgetting the fact that the prize money for LoL tournaments come mostly directly from riot himself) on topic : Good luck to him, even if i gotta admit i've never heard much of him ;D Hahahaha. Thats one way to look at it. Gotta give you props for creativity. That or the finals of LoL had over a million concurrent viewers. | ||
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PRESIZirox
France20 Posts
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ETisME
12325 Posts
 Hope you do well in LoL, the LoL scene ain't so korean dominated  | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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Destro
Netherlands1206 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:51 udgnim wrote: that part is directed solely at SC2 and not related to LoL at all you really like the death ball style in many SC2 games along with anti-micro abilities like fungal and FF? ok really. if we are going to compare the games. LoL is so bad. the fights are over in seconds, the game is full of stuns, blocks, etc that limits players way worse then any fungal / ff. Black ops 2 just sold over half a BILLION dollars in 24 hours. so given the current climate on sc2, that must mean black ops 2 is the best game. case closed. When will people realize its not the size of your community, but the quality of it. Riot please take more scrubs away from sc2, we really dont want/need them. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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Chloroplaste
France281 Posts
Overall, SC2 is not losing players, and it's ridiculous to see that lolers are happy to see player who fail switch to their game. There is a high chance that his APM don't help him on league, and with a so small skill cap (like Ocelotte or other lol pro said) there is so little chance that he find a good team and continue progaming. I hope there will be more tournament in korea though in the future. | ||
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Polarexia
United States383 Posts
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:24 elKaDor wrote: No its not, its just that blizzard completely failed making sc2, its even boring to watch the tournaments atm and no im not an LoL player The fuck are you even doing here then? You obviously don't know what you're talking about and you have no interest in actually playing the game or watching the game so why are you wasting everyone's time shitting up the retirement thread of a player? Jeez. | ||
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:57 Cereb wrote: I don't quite get why you would annouce these "I'm switching to LoL" statements.. It's like Football player switching Basket Ball... Just because you were good in one sport doesn't mean that it will translate directly to the next. Just say you retire from SC2, try the game out and maybe you are gonna be good. I just feel that this statement implies that you are guaranteed do be succesful in something that is very different from what you did well in. This is so well said. | ||
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MiND.GaMeS
Germany218 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote: but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Let's answer this question with some logic. Btw: You could have answered this question on your own. So... he leaves starcraft because he feels his skills aren't high enough to win major tournaments in SC2, so he switches to LoL.. that thing alone answers your question. Another thing: Why is LoL bigger? Because it's easier and way more newby-friendly than a game like starcraft, because LoL is extreeeeemely easy to learn and the skillgap on the other hand isn't very high either, so it's easier to reach the top tier there. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
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smileface
76 Posts
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LOLItsRyann
England551 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:24 JonIrenicus wrote: People inside this forum will say no, because they are heavy fanboys, so I advise you to not believe anyone and just try LoL yourself and find if this is true or not. I think it's quite sad that because some people have come to the conclusion that Starcraft is the only game people should ever play. League of Legends is a great game in many ways, and like others, has a great competetive scene. I think it's funny when people say LoL is easy at the top level, or dismiss is as being a challenge. The fact that you're competing against the best in the world is a challenge no matter what. In a lot of peoples assesment of LoL and Starcraft, they say that LoL is easy because there's not as much to do. You only control one hero, instead of an entire army AND managing a base while microing fights. Sure, it might be easier, but at the top level it's the same as everything else. Take darts for example. Looks easy you might say? Then why can't every single person hit 180 every single time. Every sport/game whatever you want to call it, is difficult in it's own ways. If you don't accept that, you're narrow minded in my opinion. Everything comes with it's own difficulties. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:47 Koshi wrote: Sad to see all these players go to LoL. If they change to these "moba" games they should switch to DotA. I too, find the LoL thing curious. MOBA is an interesting animal, DOTA is so unforgiving relative to LoL, I suppose LoL has a lot more casual appeal ergo larger market? Regardless there are beaucoup esports bucks in both. | ||
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:04 NovemberstOrm wrote: Then don't play it and don't post in sc2 forums. Why? If you like something you must see it errors and try to help make it better. Not just sit and be a bitter conformist like... well PS: And yes, my english is terribad. | ||
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LOLItsRyann
England551 Posts
I think it's more a case of just informing people of information, not necessarily stating any success in particular. I mean at the end of the day, we're all fans of Starcraft, and it's information about the community. | ||
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:52 LOLItsRyann wrote: I think it's quite sad that because some people have come to the conclusion that Starcraft is the only game people should ever play. League of Legends is a great game in many ways, and like others, has a great competetive scene. I think it's funny when people say LoL is easy at the top level, or dismiss is as being a challenge. The fact that you're competing against the best in the world is a challenge no matter what. In a lot of peoples assesment of LoL and Starcraft, they say that LoL is easy because there's not as much to do. You only control one hero, instead of an entire army AND managing a base while microing fights. Sure, it might be easier, but at the top level it's the same as everything else. Take darts for example. Looks easy you might say? Then why can't every single person hit 180 every single time. Every sport/game whatever you want to call it, is difficult in it's own ways. If you don't accept that, you're narrow minded in my opinion. Everything comes with it's own difficulties. You have a very good point in my opinion. If i can add, comparing SC2 x LOL is like comparing F1 x Rally You cant do that, plain and simple. They looks similar, but are diferent in so many ways. | ||
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Nisyax
Netherlands756 Posts
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
Another mediocre korean trying his shot at making fast money in LoL, wondering how it will turn out for all of them. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:54 Taipoka wrote: Why? If you like something you must see it errors and try to help make it better. Not just sit and be a bitter conformist like... well PS: And yes, my english is terribad. He's not stating any errors and he's not giving any ways to "make it better", he's just bitching for the sake of bitching in a thread where there is no place for that. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10115 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:59 Taipoka wrote: You have a very good point in my opinion. If i can add, comparing SC2 x LOL is like comparing F1 x Rally You cant do that, plain and simple. They looks similar, but are diferent in so many ways. Nope. Both, F1 and rally require huge what we would call mechanical skills, aside being smart, etc etc... (one of the training methods on F1 out of so many, is for example "touching" lights that appear in a very fast succession, most F1 pilots are above 100 lights per minute, alonso having the record with 135, and the average fella is around 40... and that's only one of the qualities you must have). The difference here is how much mechanical skill you require for competing at LoL. Which is laughable if you compare it to SC. Not like i agree with people saying that it makes LoL a non-esport. But definitly is easier to practice your game sense and teamplay than also your mechanical skills to be on top. | ||
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Testuser
6469 Posts
He was good at PvP. | ||
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WeedRa
Germany815 Posts
:D | ||
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ichnaschekot
380 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:25 Musicus wrote: I can see Idra's smile lol. My first thought exactly | ||
ZodaSoda
Australia1191 Posts
whatevs These guys would've switched to LoL from BW if BW was still going oh well, good luck they're gunna need it | ||
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EmilA
Denmark4618 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:54 ThomasjServo wrote: I too, find the LoL thing curious. MOBA is an interesting animal, DOTA is so unforgiving relative to LoL, I suppose LoL has a lot more casual appeal ergo larger market? Regardless there are beaucoup esports bucks in both. LoL took a massive headstart on playerbase as they were the first to go free to play. Pair that with mechanics my 12 year old CoD playing retard brother can master within months, It's just absolutely massive in Korea (whereas DotA is massive in China.) If you want to earn money, switch to LoL to milk the profits. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:23 EmilA wrote: LoL took a massive headstart on playerbase as they were the first to go free to play. Pair that with mechanics my 12 year old CoD playing retard brother can master within months, It's just absolutely massive in Korea (whereas DotA is massive in China.) If you want to earn money, switch to LoL to milk the profits. From what I understand, this is just not true. The only way you're earning money in KR for LoL is if you're in OGN's The Champion's League and those spots are already taken by established LoL teams. If you're a solo player switching to LoL in KR trying to make it big you better hope to have people ready to make a team good enough to make it into there. I don't think the KR teams change their rosters often at all, and even if they do change one member It's not going to be someone new to the game. I would be happy to be proven wrong if someone more knowledgeable wants to tell us how it is over there. | ||
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Sapp
Poland173 Posts
... ouh fcuk, I just said that O.O! | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:54 Taipoka wrote: Why? If you like something you must see it errors and try to help make it better. Not just sit and be a bitter conformist like... well PS: And yes, my english is terribad. What part of On November 23 2012 19:00 BgSBendeR wrote: SC2 is just a badly designed game. That's why no one will ever "dominate" the scene completely. is try to help make it better? | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10115 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:30 Assirra wrote: What part of is try to help make it better? ur game bad. Make it better. Imma being constrctriv0rz | ||
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beg
991 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:32 udgnim wrote: both SC2 and LoL is hard to make it big as a progamer making sufficient money with SC2 for Koreans, it's mostly needing to win tournaments or consistently placing high to earn some income with LoL, it has the potentially of at least supporting teams via contracts like BW since LoL is blowing up in Korea. in the OGN LoL tournament pre-final matches, LoL draws audience sizes as big if not bigger than recent GSL finals. while KESPA teams are currently paying their SC2 players salaries still, I think a lot is going to change when more and more players start to have their contracts expire and KESPA teams needing to seriously evaluate their market exposure and potential ROI. SC2 just isn't big in Korea, and SC2 needs a lot more multitask and micro injected into it to make it become a better spectator game. unfortunately, it's really up to Blizzard to make the necessary changes. no, you got it all wrong. SC2 pulls enough viewers consistently to sustain a progaming scene. period. LoL might have more viewers, but SC2 has enough viewers. that's the only thing that counts. proof: CS gets about as many viewers as SC2 and is able to sustain a progaming scene for a decade now. the only downside to this is that LoL will have crazy $1million tournaments, while SC2 will probably not grow beyond what we have now, unless some miracle happens. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:19 ZodaSoda wrote: they're just gunna make LoL saturated and leave many a player Teamless whatevs These guys would've switched to LoL from BW if BW was still going oh well, good luck they're gunna need it If you look at the success rate the people who switched from SC2/SC:BW has had they probably already reached that point. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:33 Integra wrote: If you look at the success rate the people who switched from SC2/SC:BW has had they probably already reached that point. I feel like when these players say " they are switching to LoL " when they retire from SC what they mean is they will give this game a shot since they are used to being pro gamers, but I think almost all of them will not be successful and give up rather quickly, then retire from pro gaming in general and live a normal life. You can't just switch from SC to a team game unless you already have a team lined up. | ||
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Mouzone
3937 Posts
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NexCa
Germany954 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote: but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. LoL is much easier than SC2, you need much more actions per minute in SC2 than in LoL. And stop comparing SC2 with LoL | ||
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rewired
Canada630 Posts
GL to Inori in anything he pursues in the future always remember to GL n HF | ||
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HououinKyouma
Australia152 Posts
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
Truth is sc2 is atm very very saturated and only very few can make money and in korea even less. Koreans mostly play and pratice for accomodation and food in teamhouse. not salary like foreigners so they basically make little to no money wich can be frustrating. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32269 Posts
Wonder where those people are now. | ||
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gOst
415 Posts
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Jehct
New Zealand9115 Posts
I really think these retirements are going to continue/increase until we see more equitable prize distributions or a dominant proleague format. There's no arguing that 'mid tier' players retiring/switching games is good for the scene. The standard for results being 'place top4 in a tournament' is fucking awful when there aren't 300 tournaments. Even when there are so many tournaments, by and large it's the same people taking the top spots. It's kinda fucked up that the consistent RO16ers like inori struggling to make a living/find financial success =/ Really worried about long term growth if teams/tournaments don't adopt a more sustainable model that encourages growth of the scene/players, as well as the viewership. Even the tournaments that are doing it 'right' (WCS?) have first place making 10-15x than even the semifinalists. If prize pools are going to continue to be the main income for players, that really isn't going to work =/ | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:31 Godwrath wrote: ur game bad. Make it better. Imma being constrctriv0rz I agree with you guys there. Theres not one opinion in his post. But on the other side, its like the alcoholism. First you should know you have a problem, then you can identify where it can be better. But as i said, i agree with you guys, his post was not good, but i dont like "dont like it, so gtfo" posts either. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:55 IntoTheWow wrote: I remember when BW players transferred to SC2, a lot of people told me I should watch SC2 to keep seeing them. Wonder where those people are now. Bitching about LoL in threads like these >_> | ||
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
Fortunately for them, they have international SC 2 to pick up the slack on a lot of the sponsorship and tournament $ that their own teams and leagues aren't able to provide. But how long is that going to last given the drop in SC 2 viewership across the world? | ||
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Finnz
United Kingdom260 Posts
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Derrida
2885 Posts
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:20 JonIrenicus wrote: He did the best choice. . He would be a fool not to go full time on lol. Sc2 is fucked up, and LoL is constantly growing. This is the why no one can criticize also Destiny for the choice he made. hes still playing sc2 right? | ||
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Veriol
Czech Republic502 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:56 Jehct wrote: Kinda feel bad for Inori, his chances in SC2 were probably better than they will be in LoL. I really think these retirements are going to continue/increase until we see more equitable prize distributions or a dominant proleague format. There's no arguing that 'mid tier' players retiring/switching games is good for the scene. The standard for results being 'place top4 in a tournament' is fucking awful when there aren't 300 tournaments. Even when there are so many tournaments, by and large it's the same people taking the top spots. It's kinda fucked up that the consistent RO16ers like inori struggling to make a living/find financial success =/ Really worried about long term growth if teams/tournaments don't adopt a more sustainable model that encourages growth of the scene/players, as well as the viewership. Even the tournaments that are doing it 'right' (WCS?) have first place making 10-15x than even the semifinalists. If prize pools are going to continue to be the main income for players, that really isn't going to work =/ Yeah i think this is the main problem now in whole esport not only sc2. If you actually arent a player/team who can make it top4 in each tournament they enter you simply cant/have very hard time sustain urself. From here you have to take it as a hobby not as actual job wich drops quality of the games and so on until we are back to cuasual gaming no progaming. GSTL semi just finished and the team that lost is getting 3k $ and the one advancing to finals is going to get 13k$ minimum.. | ||
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Advantageous
China1350 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote: but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. "also a team sport which is harder" "team sport which is harder" "which is harder" "harder"... Can't tell if stupid or trolling... either way gl inori on ur career switch hope everything works out. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
This really isn't a big deal. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:47 NexCa wrote: LoL is much easier than SC2, you need much more actions per minute in SC2 than in LoL. And stop comparing SC2 with LoL And SC2 is a hard game how? The irony in this thread is incredible | ||
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Jehct
New Zealand9115 Posts
On November 23 2012 21:17 Advantageous wrote: "also a team sport which is harder" "team sport which is harder" "which is harder" "harder"... Can't tell if stupid or trolling... either way gl inori on ur career switch hope everything works out. You need to work on your reading comprehension - "which is harder in other ways". You can be the best player in the world and not win tournaments (or even place top4) if you don't 'click' with your team, or you can be a top player who doesn't have a team when a big tournament comes around. Team games come with their share of different issues, and require a toolkit/skillset different from those in 1v1. But sure, go ahead and take him out of context to make some ridiculous point that supports your view of the world. You could work for fox! | ||
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Acronysis
872 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
GL, i guess.... hope to see all these guys back someday. | ||
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Copymizer
Denmark2081 Posts
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supdubdup
United States916 Posts
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ffrozenfish
820 Posts
Good luck to Inori | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
Would be cool to read up on the former SC2 pros on how they are doing in LoL. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:21 Ruscour wrote: It'd be funny if he sucked as League just as hard. Can`t be worse than Destiny. I think it is harder to break into the LoL scene because you need to get into a team. So a player like Destiny would need some serious connections with his current skill/knowledge. I am actually surprised there isn`t a lot more players retiring. Inori retiring doesn`t mean a damn thing other than him realizing he is making no impact on the sc2 scene and doesn`t seem himself doing so in the near future. | ||
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Serek
United Kingdom459 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:47 NexCa wrote: LoL is much easier than SC2, you need much more actions per minute in SC2 than in LoL. And stop comparing SC2 with LoL Do as I say, not as I do... Good luck to Inori. At the end all that matters is that he's happy with the decision he just made. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8428 Posts
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
Best of luck finding a team and make a living of League i doubt it's getting any more easy with that. | ||
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PVJ
Hungary5214 Posts
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MangoMountain
Norway2044 Posts
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WerderBremen
Germany1070 Posts
Don't want to be mean but I think its not worth a new thread every time any pro is retiring. Anyway ggl in the future. | ||
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rasnj
United States1959 Posts
Even if LoL is bigger than SC2 (and it definitely is in Korea, don't know about outside, probably depends on how you measure success), what does that mean? We only have room for one game and the only metric of success is size? Football, boxing and formula 1 are also bigger, but that does not mean SC2 is dead. I see it as quite natural that we should have competitive titles in MOBA, RTS and FPS at the same time since while the audiences overlap, they are not identical and some people watch multiple titles. Furthermore it is impossible to say that SC2 or LoL is harder. If one was considerably harder than the other, people would switch to the easier title for easy money and fame. As long as the skill ceilling isn't reached (and it won't ever be in either game) there will naturally be a pretty even difficulty for the two games. Of course the kinds of skills required are slightly different, but so what? One requires team work, one may require a bit more mental attention and reflexes, but overall they are of the same difficulty. | ||
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cari-kira
Germany655 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:28 GTR wrote: it's just as hard to break into the lol pro scene as it is for sc2, there are so many established teams right now in lol in korea that it would be really difficult to break into the scene in such short notice. min/coca/puzzle/sc haven't made a splash at all yet. remember the bw players brave and grape who quit khan to play league? non-existent. this. it might seem attractive to just switch the game when you have no success in sc2, but just wait some month, i doubt anyone of these players will be LoL-pros by then. most will probably quit the scene. | ||
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ffrozenfish
820 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:01 rasnj wrote: That mostly irrelevant or teamless people switch to LoL says very little about the state of SC2. He clearly is not succeeding in SC2 so he wanted to quit, so as a last desperate hope he tries LoL, because what other options does he really have? He either do this or go live a "regular" life (army, studies, or work). It has nothing to do with him feeling bigger than SC2, in fact quite the opposite. He is not able to cut it in the SC2 scene. Even if LoL is bigger than SC2 (and it definitely is in Korea, don't know about outside, probably depends on how you measure success), what does that mean? We only have room for one game and the only metric of success is size? Football, boxing and formula 1 are also bigger, but that does not mean SC2 is dead. I see it as quite natural that we should have competitive titles in MOBA, RTS and FPS at the same time since while the audiences overlap, they are not identical and some people watch multiple titles. Furthermore it is impossible to say that SC2 or LoL is harder. If one was considerably harder than the other, people would switch to the easier title for easy money and fame. As long as the skill ceilling isn't reached (and it won't ever be in either game) there will naturally be a pretty even difficulty for the two games. Of course the kinds of skills required are slightly different, but so what? One requires team work, one may require a bit more mental attention and reflexes, but overall they are of the same difficulty. lol switch just happened | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
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Soda-88
Croatia476 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:01 rasnj wrote: Furthermore it is impossible to say that SC2 or LoL is harder. If one was considerably harder than the other, people would switch to the easier title for easy money and fame. As long as the skill ceilling isn't reached (and it won't ever be in either game) there will naturally be a pretty even difficulty for the two games. Of course the kinds of skills required are slightly different, but so what? One requires team work, one may require a bit more mental attention and reflexes, but overall they are of the same difficulty. You must be joking with this part... MOBA games take 15 eAPM and alot of teamspeak screaming at the pro level. You also control 1/5 of your team's resources. It's like a watered down Warcraft III and please, just please don't tell me you think controlling a hero with 4 spells in 5v5 is harder than controlling the same hero along with the rest of your army/economy/production. Anyways, lol@ppl calling SC2 death because some non-factor players switch over to another game. I'd start worrying if the likes of Mvp switch over, not people who can't qualify for Code A anymore. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3516 Posts
While LoL is "easy" mechanically, there's lots of decision making done and it's hard to be good by just doing that because decision making is one of the hardest things to learn in any game. When decision making/awareness are the main factor consisting of your skill, it will be hard to innovate and stand out(imo). GL Inori. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
On November 23 2012 20:38 Dodgin wrote: I feel like when these players say " they are switching to LoL " when they retire from SC what they mean is they will give this game a shot since they are used to being pro gamers, but I think almost all of them will not be successful and give up rather quickly, then retire from pro gaming in general and live a normal life. You can't just switch from SC to a team game unless you already have a team lined up. Yup, I absolutely think so as well. | ||
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rasnj
United States1959 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:19 Soda-88 wrote: You must be joking with this part... MOBA games take 15 eAPM and alot of teamspeak screaming at the pro level. You also control 1/5 of your team's resources. It's like a watered down Warcraft III and please, just please don't tell me you think controlling a hero with 4 spells in 5v5 is harder than controlling the same hero along with the rest of your army/economy/production. Anyways, lol@ppl calling SC2 death because some non-factor players switch over to another game. I'd start worrying if the likes of Mvp switch over, not people who can't qualify for Code A anymore. Are you kidding? You didn't read what I wrote? Yes I think the popular MOBA games are hard, just as SC2 is. There is plenty of money in LoL in Korea so why wouldn't good people switch and raise the level of play if it was this easy? Results are somewhat predictably so obviously there is still an element of skill. Inori was not top notch in SC2, but he was pretty close to the top so by your comments he should dominate in LoL? Plenty of good RTS players already switched and failed. | ||
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markrevival
United States222 Posts
On November 23 2012 21:04 Azarkon wrote: drop in sc2 viewership across the world? the game has grown exponentially. When has SC2 ever had more viewers than right now? I'm starting to think the Korean eSports scene is itself over saturated and is in for an implosion. They don't have the sort of international audience that they need to sustain two large scenes, and AFAIK the Korean market itself isn't getting bigger so... Well, one game's gonna have to give, and at the moment I think it's going to be SC 2. Fortunately for them, they have international SC 2 to pick up the slack on a lot of the sponsorship and tournament $ that their own teams and leagues aren't able to provide. But how long is that going to last given the drop in SC 2 viewership across the world? | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
But as others have pointed out, Inori with no results in SC2 will probably have little to no results in LoL either. Tough scene to break into especially if he's gonna be some solo queue hero. | ||
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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Gool
Argentina204 Posts
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NMxSardines
77 Posts
Blizzard, please fix SC2's E-Sports scene before the game hemorrhages more players to LoL. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Well, it's been ages since i heard of him, not too strange a choice. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:37 NMxSardines wrote: I am annoyed with people posting sweeping generalizations here about either game with almost nothing to back it up but a bitter impression of SC2 professionals quitting the game. Blizzard, please fix SC2's E-Sports scene before the game hemorrhages more players to LoL. I think people need to fix their definition of what "professional gamer" means. Most, if not all of the players that has quit haven't been playing professionally in leagues or tournaments for at least a year. | ||
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aka_star
United Kingdom1546 Posts
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:15 Technique wrote: LoL is no competition of sc2... other than perhaps gaining sponsorships, which doesn't seem like a problem atm at all. People don't understand it's a different genre or something? And one that will have more players due to the fact that rts games are harder to get into than any other genre, that's a simple fact. Especially these days where people want everything simplified, hence running around with 1 unit that can do shiny stuff is more appealing than managing a complete base and army. i use to think that to, till i also switched to LoL.... and the fact that LoL has more players is because its a FREE game. u can just download it and litterraly start playing within an our without paying a cent. league also caters better to casual a ton more than SC2 does currently. maybe that will change, but it takes 2 damn expansions for starcraft to do anything positive with there game. waiting 2 years for content that we should have had out of the box? look at how long it took them to just give us something as simple as chat channels ffs, and when we finnally get it its pretty horrid. ya at some point u have to get fed up with the direction and the current state of the game. the game is also really easy to get into. it only took me 2 days to fully learn the machanics of the game (altho playing moba and dota clone custom games on SC2 also helped with that). u can pretty much get right into the game and start tearing ass with 20/5 kill ratios( or atleast i did). SC2 u start in bronze and u will get ur ass kicked alot before u get anywhere at all. | ||
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TheRedeemer
United States24 Posts
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LuckyGnomTV
Russian Federation367 Posts
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:47 TheRedeemer wrote: Lol how many low tier sc2 pros have you heard switch to Lol just to see them disappear in the dust. Sc2 and LoL are not the same skill wise. Look at destiny. He's almost worst than the average pub player. He was getting 3-6k viewers on sc2 back then. Maybe more. He's struggling to get 1k on Lol. A tip is to stick to your strengths. Keep dreaming about playing in million dollar touneys. ever since destiny went back to twitch he is actually getting 2.6k viewers with 1.8k being the norm. when he had that philospher guy on stream it peaked to around 3k. idk what it was about owned but he was only getting 800-1k viewers on owned. also ppl need to realize that SC2 is painful to play. grinding on ladder trying to get rank 1 master seems like a chore. LoL is actually pretty fun to play even competitively. | ||
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GoToVillage
Romania20 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:47 Koshi wrote: Sad to see all these players go to LoL. If they change to these "moba" games they should switch to DotA. From what i read on dota forums it never was that popular in korea,they played a map called chaos or something so i don't think they will start to play dota2 and on top of that riot were smart/scared/whatever and launched LoL in China while Dota 2 was still in CB so they pretty much got all the players. | ||
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PiQLiQ
Sweden702 Posts
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Disposition1989
Canada270 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:33 markrevival wrote: drop in sc2 viewership across the world? the game has grown exponentially. When has SC2 ever had more viewers than right now? Player stream numbers are down across the board so there's that. | ||
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Beyonder
Netherlands15103 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:10 Disposition1989 wrote: Player stream numbers are down across the board so there's that. Yeah, sadly, there seems to be a decline in popularity. Lets hope it picks up in HotS | ||
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NotoriousBig
Germany301 Posts
this is another example that every player who is just too bad for SC2 moves to LOL. | ||
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Meega
Germany35 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:19 NotoriousBig wrote: Haha, this is another example that every player who is just too bad for SC2 moves to LOL. True story... not, i dont know but yet many low tier Pros of SC2 switched to LoL - none of them has yet shown up anywhere near prolevel in LoL. Stop making wrong statements about skill ceiling in 2 completely different games. LoL is only easier mechanical wise but you will notice that it is alot more complex meta wise then SC2. | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:19 NotoriousBig wrote: Haha, this is another example that every player who is just too bad for SC2 moves to LOL. Relatively speaking, Inori is still pretty amazing and could probably win a lot of smaller foreign tournaments easily if he entered, which are the same ones that give hope to no-name foreigner players who are still playing in europe, NA, etc. Although I wonder if that decision is a good one. Now instead of relying on himself he has to rely on 4 other people to do things right, when the competitive scene for LoL is if anything higher than sc2 due to the massive popularity of the game. I wouldn't feel very secure being a pro-gamer if that was my plan...just because you can micro well in SC2 doesn't mean much in LoL, because the skill (i.e. multitasking) gap is low enough that it doesn't matter how well you can control three armies and an economy. That means its all based on how well you play in a team, something which SC2 players have relatively little experience in (unless he's played other team games for a while). Oh well I'm sure he has a back up plan | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
or formed one of their own? is there any business sense to this decision at all, or are they just trying a different game and hoping it works out for them? Seems like the games use different skillsets entirely. | ||
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Meggiroth
239 Posts
You have 5 units vs 5 units spaming spells at eachother and micro-ing a single unit most of the time. How can you compare that with sc2 pro lvl? There is no meta. Just map awareness and fast decision making during team clashes. Players like Inori leave for LoL because its an easier source for money. There is way more money thrown into LoL because of its large audience generated from copy pasting the dota concept, making it free and more easy than the not so noob-friendly dota. | ||
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ErAsc2
Sweden256 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote: but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. :D yeah dice throw is the ultimate hard game by your logic. In dicethrow, everything is out of your control. | ||
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FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
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ErAsc2
Sweden256 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:42 FlukyS wrote: Now who will be making DT every game anymore? :'( Inori=/= Inca :D | ||
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Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:24 Meega wrote: True story... not, i dont know but yet many low tier Pros of SC2 switched to LoL - none of them has yet shown up anywhere near prolevel in LoL. Stop making wrong statements about skill ceiling in 2 completely different games. LoL is only easier mechanical wise but you will notice that it is alot more complex meta wise then SC2. Actually, you are wrong. He didn't say anything about skill ceiling in LoL he just said that people who don't reach their goals in SC2 switch. And that is very true, of course Inori wasn't bad. But in relation to the korean pro-scene he was non-existent. Also I know quite a few people who bought SC2 but when they didn't make it they started playing LoL. | ||
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DarkGeneral
Canada328 Posts
There are times in every persons life when they sit down and evaluate their bearings. He simply said to himself, this is as far as I can go in Sc2, so I am going to take my gaming skills and switch to something easier and perhaps go further? | ||
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Jehct
New Zealand9115 Posts
This thread makes me sad. | ||
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FunkyFerdi
Germany29 Posts
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alekasas
Greece1 Post
I want to say that SC2 it requires a 150% of your gameplay to be good player. In lol you need like 80%. So SC2 its way more harder to play | ||
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Eishi_Ki
Korea (South)1667 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:34 Meggiroth wrote: What are people smoking? LoL more complex than SC2??!?!?!? You have 5 units vs 5 units spaming spells at eachother and micro-ing a single unit most of the time. How can you compare that with sc2 pro lvl? There is no meta. Just map awareness and fast decision making during team clashes. Players like Inori leave for LoL because its an easier source for money. There is way more money thrown into LoL because of its large audience generated from copy pasting the dota concept, making it free and more easy than the not so noob-friendly dota. There're too many generalisations here for it really to be taken seriously, but I'll just say, there is a meta. Many people seem to be using the degrading adjectives 'free', 'easy' and 'noob friendly' (like these are really drawbacks anyway l0l). Though, another one to consider is 'fun'. | ||
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MiQ
Canada312 Posts
1- No good results for an extended period of time 2- Realise you don't have the skills to be competitive at Starcraft 2 3- Quit and switch to LoL It really isn't because the game or the pro scene is better, they just can't keep up skillwise. LoL just seems like the easy way out without dropping progaming alltogether. | ||
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
it takes different things to be skilled at either. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
None of the switched SC pros have been even remotely relevant so far. Not to be too negative, I wish him the best of luck, of course. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:25 Musicus wrote: I can see Idra's smile lol. Now that's one other "pro" that should go play LoL, along with incontrol and lzgamer. | ||
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-TGO-
United States156 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:34 Meggiroth wrote: What are people smoking? LoL more complex than SC2??!?!?!? You have 5 units vs 5 units spaming spells at eachother and micro-ing a single unit most of the time. How can you compare that with sc2 pro lvl? There is no meta. Just map awareness and fast decision making during team clashes. Players like Inori leave for LoL because its an easier source for money. There is way more money thrown into LoL because of its large audience generated from copy pasting the dota concept, making it free and more easy than the not so noob-friendly dota. Just try LoL for yourself. There most def' is a metagame in LoL, and it is very hard to get used to because there's a metagame for every champion matchup. It's also just as hard to learn all of the champs in LoL as it is to learn starcraft 2. So please, just try LoL before you go and say it is a terrible game of nothingness. Thanks =D Back on topic~ See you inori. My friend talked to me about you and it seems hard to go pro in sc2 now days, even for the skilled players. | ||
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Eishi_Ki
Korea (South)1667 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:10 HeeroFX wrote: at least he is still gaming. Just curious, and this is likely not the topic for it, TL.net is becoming a really big esports hub, maybe they should expand coverage into league of legends? This is spoken of a lot in the LoL subforum and was discussed in the Dota2 coverage announcement. Simply, the TL staff are generally more interested in Dota2. Doesn't mean LoL can't happen in the future but for the moment, it is how it is. Drop by the subforum though, tis a very nice place to frequent indeed | ||
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Shinobi1982
1605 Posts
Same shit with some of my irl. friends, they want to play poker for the potential mad $$$ they can make. But they don't genially love playing poker to actually learn the game, all they can see and think about is the $$$. Guess what they were always losing players. As long as you have not hit the rock bottom (your lively-hood depending on the $$$ you make to survive), $$$ should never be the motivational factor. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20278 Posts
For this reason i would expect a mid master sc2 player to quickly rise in LoL skill, but a high level LoL player to hit a wall when suddenly you have to use hotkeys, you have to multitask, and there are so many concepts that are completely alien to MOBA that make the game harder to play. Out of the 3 people i know that play LoL ranked and sc2, two of them are in bronze and one is in silver after dozens of games, yet the only masters sc2 players i know that play LoL too are in the top 10% of ELO, so maybe i am biased, but i dont think so. I respect LoL's difficulty in teamwork and a lot of the knowledge requirements, but i think Starcraft is overall the harder game by far, void of that. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:34 Meggiroth wrote: What are people smoking? LoL more complex than SC2??!?!?!? You have 5 units vs 5 units spaming spells at eachother and micro-ing a single unit most of the time. How can you compare that with sc2 pro lvl? There is no meta. Just map awareness and fast decision making during team clashes. Players like Inori leave for LoL because its an easier source for money. There is way more money thrown into LoL because of its large audience generated from copy pasting the dota concept, making it free and more easy than the not so noob-friendly dota. Yes easier to play (at least non-competively), yes more difficult to watch, but probably not less complex than SC2. Face it, Starcraft 2 is pretty straight-forward and it's not as complex as some "cough" day9 "cough" casters/analysts pretend it is. Comparing SC2 to BW: There is almost no map position play, only deathball engagement position play. The army controls have been seriously dumbed down (battles last less than a minute, no more gimmicky group control linked to the broken interface of BW). Every macro mechanics have been seriously dumbed down. So now we've gotten into this Brood War sequel which is actually just a build order win/execution and deathball positioning game. You claim the audience comes from the fact that the game is free... no it's not really the reason. Watching Starcraft 2 is also free, yet Koreans don't care about it (see last BW OSL vs First SC2 OSL) because it has been a HUGE step down from BW. God, how in denial can some people be... your kind of people who give excuses everytime something negative is said about SC2 are not helping. I know you do want to damage control the situation, but it's really not helping. As for LoL, I agree that an individual player has less stuff to do than a player in SC2: it IS an easier game to control (almost no multitask), but the level of depth coming from synergy and teamplay far exceeds the current differenciator (between the winner and the loser) of SC2. Edit: Also adding that except a selected few that actually win tournaments in Starcraft 2, very few players can actually earn a decent living (Destiny who was mocked in this thread was one of them). This is not the sign of a healthy scene. it's actually time you guys realize this. | ||
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WightyCity
Canada887 Posts
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Meggiroth
239 Posts
Thats not the reason why there is a greater audience? So people who DON'T play sc2 because they can't be arsed to pay for it should more inclined to watch a game they never really got into to play it at all? People should relate with a game they can't afford or don't want to give money to play? You fail at logic really hard. I won't go into details of how plain retarded that LoL more complex than sc2 is. Its beyond obvious. One day you might get out of bronze/silver and understand. I'm sure sc2 looks pretty simple while watching it on stream and the casters telling you whats happening all the time. User was warned for this post | ||
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iKnowKungFu
Poland21 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 Snowbear wrote: I hope that this time people won't act like it's the end of sc2. The competition is too high atm, there are too many professionals, so people will have to quit. Good luck inori! I agree. The game is getting better and tighter skill wise, and some pros just aren't cutting it and are smart to go. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:50 Meggiroth wrote: A wild delusional LoL fanboy appeared! Thats not the reason why there is a greater audience? So people who DON'T play sc2 because they can't be arsed to pay for it should more inclined to watch a game they never really got into to play it at all? People should relate with a game they can't afford or don't want to give money to play? You fail at logic really hard. I won't go into details of how plain retarded that LoL more complex than sc2 is. Its beyond obvious. One day you might get out of bronze/silver and understand. I'm sure sc2 looks pretty simple while watching it on stream and the casters telling you whats happening all the time. I barely play LoL, I'm high masters in SC2, and BW viewers did not play the game. even if SC2 is not free, I don't think there's anyone who "can't afford it", especially when Romanians can.. There we go,. in less than 100 words, because I don't think you're worth more. | ||
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MegaFonzie
Australia1084 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:50 iKnowKungFu wrote: guess what...nobody cares I care. Big fan, stole many a build. GL in LoL inori | ||
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Eishi_Ki
Korea (South)1667 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:50 Meggiroth wrote: A wild delusional LoL fanboy appeared! Thats not the reason why there is a greater audience? So people who DON'T play sc2 because they can't be arsed to pay for it should more inclined to watch a game they never really got into to play it at all? People should relate with a game they can't afford or don't want to give money to play? You fail at logic really hard. I won't go into details of how plain retarded that LoL more complex than sc2 is. Its beyond obvious. One day you might get out of bronze/silver and understand. I'm sure sc2 looks pretty simple while watching it on stream and the casters telling you whats happening all the time. I paid for SC2. I don't play it because it's dull and uninspiring and would rather spend my time doing something (anything) fun; if I need to pay for it or not. You accuse others of fanboyism. Hypocrisy is a fickle thing | ||
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MrF
United States320 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:26 emc wrote: i'm not saying LoL is a harder game. What I said is it's harder in a lot of ways, I guess I should have worded it: "It's harder in other ways" because there is a team element which adds randomness into the game that you can't individually control. And I was asking a question, because LoL seems to be a lot bigger which begs the question that it probably is just as hard to be pro in LoL, or any game for that matter. but for the sake of it, don't even respond to me because it's not worth derailing the thread. First of all you can't make a statement and then say don't respond, if you want that then don't post. That being said, in response, while LoL is bigger there are actually a lot less "pro" players in lol, what LoL has is a massive fan base and a shit ton of casual/semi serious players, but if you watch the LoL pro scene there aren't all that many pro teams and while its true that there are 4 people who are on your team who are out of your control, I believe that highly skilled sc2 players could do really well in lol if they arent finding any success in sc2. Basically SC2=too many pros, not enough fans LoL=too many fans, not enough pros. that may be oversimplified but i think it holds water. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:29 Cyro wrote: Most of my criticism towards LoL goes to mechanical skill requirements And that's why SC2 is casual compared to Brood War, right mang? Swirling around the release of SC2 was all this talk about how mechanics shouldn't dictate the game, how it should be about player knowledge, decision making, tactics, intelligence. How older, slower players like NesTea finding success in SC2 was a good thing. But NesTea had better not play LoL, or else he's doing something wrong. | ||
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Meggiroth
239 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:55 Patate wrote: I barely play LoL, I'm high masters in SC2, and BW viewers did not play the game. even if SC2 is not free, I don't think there's anyone who "can't afford it", especially when Romanians can.. There we go,. in less than 100 words, because I don't think you're worth more. If are are high masters then I'm marry poppins. Also pretty pathetic nation bashing. You are free to go back to hunting pink rabbits in LoL now. Thanks for your time. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
LoL is still a good shot after you had problems in Sc2. But it is no free win anymore. And it is not that easy to adapt too if you come from Sc2. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
I hope TSL tries to fill the Protoss spot, they are even more severly lacking now in that regard. Edit: just made the mistake of reading some of the comments on the first page, I thought the Destiny/SC2-is-doomed/lol-so-good crowd went away and let us have our peace Please just go away, enjoy your game and let us enjoy ours. kkthxbye | ||
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MrF
United States320 Posts
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Stress
United States980 Posts
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:28 Shinobi1982 wrote: I can only laugh at switches like these. Guess what he didn't love playing SC2 as much in order to succeed at it, nor does he love playing LoL otherwise he'd switch the moment LoL was released. People like that will never be the best. Same shit with some of my irl. friends, they want to play poker for the potential mad $$$ they can make. But they don't genially love playing poker to actually learn the game, all they can see and think about is the $$$. Guess what they were always losing players. As long as you have not hit the rock bottom (your lively-hood depending on the $$$ you make to survive), $$$ should never be the motivational factor. Or maybe he heard a lot of shit talking from people who would pressure him into not playing LoL, and after a while he decided to ignore them and give it a try. Then he liked it better and felt better at it than SC2. Within the realm of possibility or not? I just started playing LoL a few weeks ago. What does that have to do with whether or not I like LoL? You have to get into something before you can know what you like it. How do you like something the moment it comes out? That's the realm of fanboy gibberish. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 24 2012 01:23 Stress wrote: These guys that "retire" from one game and switch to another are somewhat delusional, in my opinion. If you can't perform well in SC2 what makes you think that by switching games you got a better chance? LoL is so big and there is already so many well established teams it is just as big of a mountain to climb, if not bigger, than trying to break into the SC2 scene. The simple fact with e-sports right now is that unless you are in the top 2% you aren't going to be making a lot of money and your time is better spent elsewhere. But the choice is theirs, best of luck, Inori. What made MVP think that switching from BW to SC2 would give him a better chance? Different games, different aptitudes. Can we please deal with it? | ||
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Flummie
Netherlands417 Posts
Not that sc2 is so supercomplex as some people want to make it but seriously, what does it matter how complex a game is? I never understood this reasoning. More important would be how competitive and how fun it is but that is just my 2 cents. If you like complex games start solving super difficult puzzles 24/7 imo or play Riven or something. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44024 Posts
Best of luck in the future... | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
, your PvP was godly, like straight up S class PvP. He was the Elfi of Korea, except better . Unfortunately his other MU's were not above at most code B later on in his career. I can see why he'd be retiring, but he has had results less than about 4 months ago, so I'm wondering why he is leaving before HotS. His results were not in singles leagues though, they were in team leagues so maybe that was the thing for him.Second of all, SC2 players leaving to LoL is a very bad idea. Unless they have been playing for 2 years like the rest of the pros there, they will not be up to snuff on communicating and the rest of the intricacies of LoL that people in the SC2 forums are quick to dismiss without a word. To be frank, the skills that travel over to LoL from SC2 are the multitasking abilities and the map awareness, however, the micro you need in LoL is a lot less about having godly micro of all your units and more about having perfect micro of one unit so that your team can micro around you (this is very subtle, where as you can have stalker blinks that look insane since you are doing them to 10+ stalkers, these blinks are really great only when you consider the number of stalkers needed to micro. In LoL, to be a pro in any scene other than maybe the semi-pros, one needs near perfect micro of one unit that makes the other team's units impossible to micro perfectly). From there, team synergy is even harder to keep since that requires lots of practice. If Inori is really good at LoL I'd love to see him play. I hope he also isn't doing it to make money off streaming since it's not actually a lot of people that watch League voraciously, like people do for starcraft. A lot only watch their favorite players. A good number of them are trolls that troll the players on TSM (mostly Dyrus, but the rest get their fair share) FeaR (only Aphromoo and sometimes Muffinqt/Xmithie), SK (usually Ocelote), TPA (ToyZ and LiLBallz), and sometimes the variable teams like Curse and CLG (sometimes Froggen). Those people literally get 90% of the viewers (and like 60-70% of the trolls). The rest of the players vie for the remaining 10%. The rest of that 10% do not go to Koreans, they normally go to either girl players (I don't mean like Tara Babcock who plays multiple games, I mean like KereiAutumn who has ties to TSM) or random Taiwan or Chinese players which there is no dearth of on twitch. With that in mind, I hope Inori does really well and does not try to think that LoL is some golden place where money falls from the skies. It really isn't, the fans on TL are an enormous exception from most LoL fans. The fans on TL are not just normally very reasonable and mild mannered, they understand that LoL, just like other games, is not a one and done thing. Teams don't just automatically win every game and they have losing seasons and dissapointing performances. The fans off of TL and even some fans on TSM's website, especially those on Curse's forums and reddit are horrendously vitriolic. They hate all the time since there is an enormous casual base, but not enough people who understand the pro scene. Because of that, 1 streamer will get a ton of viewers while the others will not. This is also why a lot of fans on other websites would get permad really fast on TL, they can make life very hard, and discourage playing with their bullying fairly quickly. The same thing happened to Dyrus and he got Depressed because of his accruing of trolls. | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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snively
United States1159 Posts
:'( i will miss you, bb | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
On November 24 2012 01:42 docvoc wrote: A couple things guys. 1 GL inori , your PvP was godly, like straight up S class PvP. He was the Elfi of Korea, except better . Unfortunately his other MU's were not above at most code B later on in his career. I can see why he'd be retiring, but he has had results less than about 4 months ago, so I'm wondering why he is leaving before HotS. His results were not in singles leagues though, they were in team leagues so maybe that was the thing for him.Second of all, SC2 players leaving to LoL is a very bad idea. Unless they have been playing for 2 years like the rest of the pros there, they will not be up to snuff on communicating and the rest of the intricacies of LoL that people in the SC2 forums are quick to dismiss without a word. To be frank, the skills that travel over to LoL from SC2 are the multitasking abilities and the map awareness, however, the micro you need in LoL is a lot less about having godly micro of all your units and more about having perfect micro of one unit so that your team can micro around you (this is very subtle, where as you can have stalker blinks that look insane since you are doing them to 10+ stalkers, these blinks are really great only when you consider the number of stalkers needed to micro. In LoL, to be a pro in any scene other than maybe the semi-pros, one needs near perfect micro of one unit that makes the other team's units impossible to micro perfectly). From there, team synergy is even harder to keep since that requires lots of practice. If Inori is really good at LoL I'd love to see him play. I hope he also isn't doing it to make money off streaming since it's not actually a lot of people that watch League voraciously, like people do for starcraft. A lot only watch their favorite players. A good number of them are trolls that troll the players on TSM (mostly Dyrus, but the rest get their fair share) FeaR (only Aphromoo and sometimes Muffinqt/Xmithie), SK (usually Ocelote), TPA (ToyZ and LiLBallz), and sometimes the variable teams like Curse and CLG (sometimes Froggen). Those people literally get 90% of the viewers (and like 60-70% of the trolls). The rest of the players vie for the remaining 10%. The rest of that 10% do not go to Koreans, they normally go to either girl players (I don't mean like Tara Babcock who plays multiple games, I mean like KereiAutumn who has ties to TSM) or random Taiwan or Chinese players which there is no dearth of on twitch. With that in mind, I hope Inori does really well and does not try to think that LoL is some golden place where money falls from the skies. It really isn't, the fans on TL are an enormous exception from most LoL fans. The fans on TL are not just normally very reasonable and mild mannered, they understand that LoL, just like other games, is not a one and done thing. Teams don't just automatically win every game and they have losing seasons and dissapointing performances. The fans off of TL and even some fans on TSM's website, especially those on Curse's forums and reddit are horrendously vitriolic. They hate all the time since there is an enormous casual base, but not enough people who understand the pro scene. Because of that, 1 streamer will get a ton of viewers while the others will not. This is also why a lot of fans on other websites would get permad really fast on TL, they can make life very hard, and discourage playing with their bullying fairly quickly. The same thing happened to Dyrus and he got Depressed because of his accruing of trolls. wow, i looked at this post and was like "ok, ill read it just to see how bad it is" but its really well written and raises some good points. props to you, good sir, for writing something that is worth reading the wall of text for | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
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MicroTastiC
375 Posts
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Kranyum
77 Posts
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Beatmania
England33 Posts
But finally I caved, and it was a bit of fun. I didn't take it very seriously like Starcraft but I just wanted to play more. I still maintained sc was the best game ever and nothing could fill the hole it left in my heart. But I just couldn't stop playing LoL. Being addicted to sc was my choice, I wanted to improve. And now I find myself addicted to LoL because it is fun. After 630 wins is now finally when I'm striving to improve my play in LoL. My short gaming biography is only written as a testament to the fact I understand and have enjoyed both games to an above average level. Both of these games require a lot of time and knowledge to get good at. I would say sc requires more overall physicality, crisis management and of course multitasking. .LoL despite what people think is much heavier on the theory side. The meta is just more complicated. There are more variables and once you understand the game you know any composition of teams cannot be approached in the same way. In sc you know your intended build and your action and reaction most of the time. Execution is way more important in sc. Even with their differences. LoL being much more mechanically forgiving. The very best players are still few and will dominate everyone else in each of the games. Because in LoL it's still hard to be a player with perfect mechanics, who also has the theory, the reaction time, and the game sense. And in sc its the EXACT same way. As for the pro players leaving to play LoL. A lot of potential reasons haven't even been stated on this thread. Mostly just fanboyism from both sides. Do you ever stop to wonder how these players feel about the games themselves? Blizzard is TERRIBLE at listening to the community and there are horrible balance issues popping up everywhere. HotS seems like it is going to need some serious work and they could quite easily ruin the game if they mess anything up too much more. Then you have Riot who listen, and implement new features constantly. And really seem to know how to make their game better month by month. If you're a struggling pro in this game making no money. Wouldn't you lack some serious motivation to carry on? People aren't really considering that they are switching because they would like the same pursuit without the added stress of a horribly maintained game they don't benefit from anyway. LoL is doing better in terms of prize pools, viewers, and players. It is exploding in South Korea too. Whilst I am still much more fond of sc and my time with it. LoL has a much better infrastructure for more players to make a living than sc does. And being the most popular in Korea has a huge appeal. Basically, you're not going to see a sc pro who is earning switch to LoL because the loss of their earnings would be way too risky. Players like Inori just have nothing to lose. | ||
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ssi.bal-listic
United States568 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Vorlik
1522 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:12 MicroTastiC wrote: LoL is the better game anyway. It's a lot more fun and stress-free. Isn't that what a game is supposed to be? LoL is still very stressful because you're playing with 4 other people you can't control. If you're not a team oriented person you're gonna have a bad time. | ||
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Antyee
Hungary1011 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:26 Vorlik wrote: LoL is still very stressful because you're playing with 4 other people you can't control. If you're not a team oriented person you're gonna have a bad time. Or you can hit the mute button 4 times and just play for fun. Or find 4 people who aren't raging and play with them. Worst-case scenario: you and your friend shout at each other, and then go and have a drink or two. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 23 2012 19:10 raVenwomBat wrote: Imo, this is the real "elephant in the room". I think something drastic has to happen in order for SCII to catch back up to LoL. I'm really concerned about the recent development... Every player that has "switched" to LoL has had virtually no success in SC2. Players who lose interest are gonna retire from SC2 no matter what. They just happen to announce in the same breath it was LoL they moved to. It has no impact on SC2 other than drive sc2 doomsday fanatics up the wall. | ||
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MiQ
Canada312 Posts
SC2 produces the better all around progamers, no question about it. | ||
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WhX
Germany778 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:40 rd wrote: Every player that has "switched" to LoL has had virtually no success in SC2. Players who lose interest are gonna retire from SC2 no matter what. They just happen to announce in the same breath it was LoL they moved to. It has no impact on SC2 other than drive sc2 doomsday fanatics up the wall. Puzzle? Coca? No Success? While it's true that they didn't post the same results as last year, they actually were successful and talented. | ||
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Antyee
Hungary1011 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:41 MiQ wrote: I find news like this pretty funny, simply proves how much harder SC2 is. The game is a lot more taxing on the players and they have a lot more on the line than those playign team games. SC2 produces the better all around progamers, no question about it. [citation needed] I suck at sc2, so I switch and play LoL. Proceed to suck at LoL. Where is the difference? Oh, it is that LoL is more fun to play if you don't care about playing seriously. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:45 WhX wrote: Puzzle? Coca? No Success? While it's true that they didn't post the same results as last year, they actually were successful and talented. fruitdealer the trendsetter! where is he now? | ||
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Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:49 Oboeman wrote: fruitdealer the trendsetter! where is he now? probably at the bar GL inori in LoL. Sad to see another player retire but I understand why you would | ||
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Ettick
United States2434 Posts
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WeedRa
Germany815 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:12 MicroTastiC wrote: LoL is the better game anyway. It's a lot more fun and stress-free. Isn't that what a game is supposed to be? who are you to judge if LoL is the better game or not? Jesus, you make me so angry i just wanna punch my screen... but wait, i'm no LoL player so i can behave myself | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
GL Inori! | ||
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act.hero
United States205 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:54 IPA wrote: Wish he would switch to a superior Moba like Dota 2. GL Inori! Dota2 lost the Korea race. It's not really even worth following anymore. | ||
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Antyee
Hungary1011 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:52 WeedRa wrote: who are you to judge if LoL is the better game or not? Jesus, you make me so angry i just wanna punch my screen... but wait, i'm no LoL player so i can behave myself Google "joke". Yes, just like Stephano. Or Naniwa. | ||
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SkyfOu
United States81 Posts
Good luck with LoL Inori. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
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Nacht1331
United States15 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:20 JonIrenicus wrote: He did the best choice. . He would be a fool not to go full time on lol. Sc2 is fucked up, and LoL is constantly growing. This is the why no one can criticize also Destiny for the choice he made. So you basically came here to rag on SC because... you feel the absolute need to? I'm sorry but if anyone from any game feels superior because of any reason, that's just stupid. It's about as logical as hating people for what music they like. LoL is harder in it's own ways. SC is harder in it's own ways. It's like Basketball vs Tennis. Furthermore, both are actually growing, but league is growing faster. LoL also has many less barriers to entry than SC2, being free and all. I personally don't like LoL, you don't see me ragging on it. Grow up a little bit and act mature. And to Inori, best of luck with your new career! =D | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:43 Fusilero wrote: The only SC player with success is tazza from way back he jungles for sword now Whoa, Hite Sparkyz Tazza? Maybe I'll check out pro LoL after all. I remember him making me like 50 bucks when I bet on him vs Bisu xD | ||
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Greendotz
United Kingdom2053 Posts
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:56 act.hero wrote: Dota2 lost the Korea race. It's not really even worth following anymore. I know. It's still superior though. | ||
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Nacht1331
United States15 Posts
On November 24 2012 00:08 Dandel Ion wrote: I'm curious if he'll make it... well, anywhere in LoL. None of the switched SC pros have been even remotely relevant so far. Not to be too negative, I wish him the best of luck, of course. Korea hasn't really been relevant so far either though. Western teams, and from what I gather Chinese teams, are the big names. It's asking a little much to expect the SC2 players to somehow join a random team and then a few months later just come from nowhere and win everything. | ||
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Eruism
United States312 Posts
On November 24 2012 03:30 Nacht1331 wrote: Korea hasn't really been relevant so far either though. Western teams, and from what I gather Chinese teams, are the big names. The ignorance is so painful...... | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 24 2012 03:30 Nacht1331 wrote: Korea hasn't really been relevant so far either though. Western teams, and from what I gather Chinese teams, are the big names. It's asking a little much to expect the SC2 players to somehow join a random team and then a few months later just come from nowhere and win everything. http://leaguepedia.com/wiki/Azubu_Blaze Azubu Blaze's first event outside of Korea would be at the MLG 2012 Summer Arena. At the event, Azubu Blaze would go 8-1, taking out Team SoloMid, Team Curse, and Team BLACK to take first at the event. Azubu Blaze would suffer their only lost against North American team Curse. | ||
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lolspoon
450 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:31 Dodgin wrote: It's not like Destiny is a professional in LoL or anything, I heard his stream numbers are quite bad nowadays as well ;o 1000-3000 is still better than most of people ;-). | ||
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:11 TaShadan wrote: LoL is much bigger than sc2 and its more succesfull in korea, thats why so many switch Since when are games stressful? Get real. | ||
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On November 24 2012 02:12 MicroTastiC wrote: LoL is the better game anyway. It's a lot more fun and stress-free. Isn't that what a game is supposed to be? Since when are games stressful? Get real. | ||
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Imbu
United States903 Posts
Hopefully he finds a lot of success in League of Legends, I wouldn't mind watching him ^_^. | ||
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JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On November 24 2012 03:45 Technique wrote: Since when are games stressful? Get real. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=383016 Playing the game itself isn't stressful. It's the preparation and the pressure while competing in tournaments that can be stressful. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On November 24 2012 03:05 lolmlg wrote: There's a ton of rage in LoL anyway. Even if you're just playing against bots, if there are human players on your team and one of them feels he knows more about the game than another, he will definitely scream at that guy in the chat. People get extremely frustrated because your Elo rating relies heavily on the teammates you get. I imagine that a lot of people didn't get the joke when Stephano talked about that during that SC2 vs. LoL video from a week or two ago. You wouldn't see much bitching during a professional LoL match I guess, but behind the scenes it can be pretty bad. And there isn't any here? As a former SC2 player who switched to league this community isn't any better. In some cases it's worse. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On November 24 2012 03:52 JBright wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=383016 Playing the game itself isn't stressful. It's the preparation and the pressure while competing in tournaments that can be stressful. To be a pro in a highly volatile environment is stressful, of course. But that's a whole different statement. | ||
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Leetley
1796 Posts
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On November 24 2012 03:40 lolspoon wrote: 1000-3000 is still better than most of people ;-). He is still drawing more viwers then most SC2 players. And when Dendi or Puppey are streaming DOTA2 the are anyhere from 5-10K I haven't seen a SC2 streamer bring in more the 3k for quite sime time | ||
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
On November 23 2012 22:12 kongoline wrote: oh the irony, sc2 players hating on lol because its easier while their game is easy joke compared to bw agreed, this is too funny sadly for inori, he won't make it anytime soon if he doesn't build a new team from scratch | ||
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Laneir
United States1160 Posts
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
Really to reach the highest level in any game that has a truly competitive pro scene which LoL has is not easy, so well done to anyone who gets that far and no need to belittle their achievements. So sc2 players should not feel any resentment and the superiority complex is unnecessary and lame. Also you c- heroes popping up in the thread should pipe down, if you switch to sc2 you not be anything special, so time to get down off your high horse. | ||
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Grampz
United States2147 Posts
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Mazzi
440 Posts
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markrevival
United States222 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:10 Disposition1989 wrote: Player stream numbers are down across the board so there's that. # of tournaments is up by about triple from about a year ago. people are watching a lot more starcraft, not less. | ||
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JtoK
Germany232 Posts
I heard nothing out of Destiny, Select etc. Maybe it will take some time, but i dont think they will go huge in the LoL scene. | ||
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Shinobi1982
1605 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:34 JtoK wrote: LoL is way easier than Sc2, thats why Select and Inori are switching over. They think to achieve more, but with strong chinese teams and teams like Na'Vi, it will be difficult. I heard nothing out of Destiny, Select etc. Maybe it will take some time, but i dont think they will go huge in the LoL scene. Select switched to dota2, china dota = best dota, na'vi plays also dota2. Only Inory has something to do with LoL. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
On November 24 2012 03:45 Technique wrote: Since when are games stressful? Get real. If youre a pro, its not a "game" anymore, its your job. Thats where it becomes stressful. | ||
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
Good choice by him. Team sports always draw more money than individual sports. Mediocre players in LoL can earn enough money, but in SC2, only top players can earn enough. Look at the best individual sports, tennis and Golf, only top players can earn the money compared to average earnings in team sports, such as soccer, football, basketball etc. | ||
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[N3O]r3d33m3r
Germany673 Posts
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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MiQ
Canada312 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:08 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote: and the saga continues, soon all SC2 player will switch to LoL ! XD Nah, just the bad ones. | ||
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:34 JtoK wrote: LoL is way easier than Sc2, thats why Select and Inori are switching over. They think to achieve more, but with strong chinese teams and teams like Na'Vi, it will be difficult. I heard nothing out of Destiny, Select etc. Maybe it will take some time, but i dont think they will go huge in the LoL scene. I don't think people who switched believe themselves will go huge on another scene. They just think as an average players, they are better off with LoL. They just believe they will be an average players there too, but that's still better than being average in SC2. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
Congratulations to a fantastic game, glad to see it growing. LoL hwaiting! | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
Or why people who seem to think SC2 is "dead" continue to read the SC2 forum and post in it. | ||
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tMomiji
United States1115 Posts
Inori...you were one of my favorite Protoss...why, why...-curls up to cry- | ||
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
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Mazzi
440 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:25 MVega wrote: Never understood how anybody that could play SC2 at a high level, or brood war, could ever switch to LoL/Dota. Those games are much slower paced and have such a low skill ceiling. Not hating either, I have nothing against those games, I just don't understand why they'd ever be popular amongst former pro-gamers from RTS/FPS games. Also don't really understand why when someone who nobody has heard about in the last several months decides to play a different game it has to be posted in SC2 General or why it has to always turn into some SC2 vs Moba discussion. Or why people who seem to think SC2 is "dead" continue to read the SC2 forum and post in it. LoL is not slow paced at all, its actually much faster than building a deathball in base all game n a moving | ||
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SwizzY
United States1549 Posts
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SwizzY
United States1549 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:29 Mazzi wrote: LoL is not slow paced at all, its actually much faster than building a deathball in base all game n a moving .. Actually most matches finish within 10-25 min. LoL laning phase is boring as hell to watch just because of how slow and monotonous it can get. | ||
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murkk
Canada154 Posts
That being said, why stick around in a game you will never do well in. There are a ton of players who aren't have fun and don't wish to play competitively... why not move on? Good luck to him. | ||
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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
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SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:28 Kluey wrote: You guys have to remember that LoL is HUGE in Korea. It would be like switching from rugby to football in the US. Nah it's like switching from middle school football too professional football. | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:29 Mazzi wrote: LoL is not slow paced at all, its actually much faster than building a deathball in base all game n a moving I disagree. LoL speeds up in the end game, but the vast majority of it is about as slow as an ancient tortoise marching through peanut butter. | ||
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Nacht1331
United States15 Posts
On November 24 2012 04:03 magnaflow wrote: He is still drawing more viwers then most SC2 players. And when Dendi or Puppey are streaming DOTA2 the are anyhere from 5-10K I haven't seen a SC2 streamer bring in more the 3k for quite sime time Big names, like Polt, bring in quite a few off of pure play. If you want to discuss starcraft bringing in views in general, day[9] brings in numbers on anything he plays. Most koreans either stream anonymously and randomly, or stream a lot, but don't make fun commentaries. They don't stream for the sake of entertaining their viewers as much as other streamers do, making them bad streamers, meaning they have less views. I haven't watched a LoL streamer, so I have no idea if they're any different, but considering LoL has a much larger community, I would bet the numbers are about the same percentage wise. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:38 SlowBullets wrote: Nah it's like switching from middle school football too professional football. Nah it's like switching from chess to checkers. What's the point in having this kind of discussion? There are players that like lol, there are players that like SC2, and there are players that like both. Stop the nonsense comparing and gloating, guys. This does nothing good. | ||
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Nacht1331
United States15 Posts
I guess I missed that one O.o | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
You haven't been following it closely at all then. Korean teams (and some chinese teams) are dominating the scene, western teams can barely compete once again. | ||
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taLbuk
Madagascar1879 Posts
its a been almost a year and people are still spewing bullshit as facts on these forums | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:54 zefreak wrote: I peeked in this thread to see how big of a LoL - SC2 shitfest it is and was not disappointed. You and me both. People need to understand that this is a player who has not been successful in SC2 moving on to try something else in his progaming career. Sure, you've heard of Inori and he went okay for a while, but now he's only in Korea and he's never won a match at GOMTV. When a currently successful player switches, then you have permission to shit yourselves. | ||
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DontNerfInfestors
Spain280 Posts
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testthewest
Germany274 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:58 Ruscour wrote: You and me both. People need to understand that this is a player who has not been successful in SC2 moving on to try something else in his progaming career. Sure, you've heard of Inori and he went okay for a while, but now he's only in Korea and he's never won a match at GOMTV. When a currently successful player switches, then you have permission to shit yourselves. No, people have to understand, that they don't really know any of the players. They can't know the exact reasons and it doesn't matter. Even if MVP switches, it should not affect you. Play whatever you like best, watch whatever esport entertains you and be a happy man. Cut these shitstorms out. | ||
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:06 testthewest wrote: No, people have to understand, that they don't really know any of the players. They can't know the exact reasons and it doesn't matter. Even if MVP switches, it should not affect you. Play whatever you like best, watch whatever esport entertains you and be a happy man. Cut these shitstorms out. When there are people, there are shit. Can't be cut. No shit, no health. | ||
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SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:50 ACrow wrote: Nah it's like switching from chess to checkers. What's the point in having this kind of discussion? There are players that like lol, there are players that like SC2, and there are players that like both. Stop the nonsense comparing and gloating, guys. This does nothing good. rofl no. People underestimate the skill level in MOBAs...it is definitely harder than SC2, lol. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:16 SlowBullets wrote: rofl no. People underestimate the skill level in MOBAs...it is definitely harder than SC2, lol. Yea cuz Select didn't switch to Dota because it's easier, right? | ||
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rasender872
Finland10 Posts
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On November 24 2012 05:40 MVega wrote: I disagree. LoL speeds up in the end game, but the vast majority of it is about as slow as an ancient tortoise marching through peanut butter. which is almost the exact same as sc2, over half the games nothing happens in the first 15 minutes. | ||
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MatiaasS !
Chile167 Posts
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:16 SlowBullets wrote: rofl no. People underestimate the skill level in MOBAs...it is definitely harder than SC2, lol. Not really, you're comparing apples to oranges. LoL is huge on teamwork which is an issue for overall gameplay, sc2 mechanics are infinitely harder, comparing team games to individual games are silly. | ||
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Freezd
United States139 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:28 Ace.Xile wrote: which is almost the exact same as sc2, over half the games nothing happens in the first 15 minutes. LoL games on average last 40-60 minutes while Sc2 games on average last 15-25 minutes bro | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:16 SlowBullets wrote: rofl no. People underestimate the skill level in MOBAs...it is definitely harder than SC2, lol. I've been playing RTS and MOBAs almost my whole life. Even SC2, as a watered down version of BW is "harder" than DOTA2 or HON or LoL. You can come to this conclusion without even playing the games. Just look at how many SC2/BW players go on to other competitive scenes compared to the reverse flow. You will never see a professional DOTA/LoL player switching over to SC2 because of the mechanical difficulty. Both genres take a good amount of skill and ofc require slightly different categories of skill but SC2 has a higher threshold of required skill for multitasking, mouse precision, accuracy and just overall APM. | ||
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:16 SlowBullets wrote: rofl no. People underestimate the skill level in MOBAs...it is definitely harder than SC2, lol. Whatever you say. People can have different opinions, if you don't like SC2, why even post in a SC2 forum? The only thing you'll do, is stir up a useless discussion. Sorry, let me translate: "rofl lol nah you wrong, rofl" | ||
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SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
Well BW to me has always been the hardest game. But Sc2 is a joke by comparison. MOBA at least requires some form of competition though. And teamwork, which brings on a whole new element to competitive gaming. Also, it's fun. On November 24 2012 06:21 ZAiNs wrote: Yea cuz Select didn't switch to Dota because it's easier, right? Yeah have you ever thought that maybe MOBA might be more fun than SC2 to the majority of the people, hence the switching? lol wtf? LoL is the biggest game in Korea...whereas Sc2 is doing poorly...who would even want to waste their time? Difficulty aside, fun factor is more important...and it shows in the numbers of CASUAL players/viewers (remember BW when most viewers weren't even competitive gamers, but rather people of all demographics? Even old people were watching that shit). Professional Sc2 is not going to get you far in the long term, hell even short term. Might as well jump the sinking ship while you're at it. On November 24 2012 06:32 ACrow wrote: Whatever you say. People can have different opinions, if you don't like SC2, why even post in a SC2 forum? The only thing you'll do, is stir up a useless discussion. Sorry, let me translate: "rofl lol nah you wrong, rofl" I post where I want. Besides, it's fun to see the downfall of a shitty, undeserved game. User was warned for this post | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:33 SlowBullets wrote: @SupLilSon: Uhh I've been playng HoN for 3 years before quitting.. Well BW to me has always been the hardest game. But Sc2 is a joke by comparison. MOBA at least requires some form of competition though. And teamwork, which brings on a whole new element to competitive gaming. Also, it's fun. Yeah have you ever thought that maybe MOBA might be more fun than SC2 to the majority of the people, hence the switching? lol wtf? LoL is the biggest game in Korea...whereas Sc2 is doing poorly...who would even want to waste their time? Difficulty aside, fun factor is more important...and it shows in the numbers of CASUAL players/viewers (remember BW when most viewers weren't even competitive gamers, but rather people of all demographics? Even old people were watching that shit). Professional Sc2 is not going to get you far in the long term, hell even short term. Might as well jump the sinking ship while you're at it. I post where I want. Besides, it's fun to see the downfall of a shitty, undeserved game. I played DOTA for a solid 6 years, switched to HON from it's release until DOTA2 came out. I've played more MOBA than many people out there and believe me, I agree with you about it being much more fun than SC2. I can hardly log onto SC2 anymore unless my 1 friend begs me to play 2v2 with him... But I still believe SC2 takes more overall skill. I know a good amount of people who are competent MOBA players and gave up SC2 trying to progress through bronze-gold league. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
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crbox
Canada1180 Posts
GLGL :D | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:06 testthewest wrote: No, people have to understand, that they don't really know any of the players. They can't know the exact reasons and it doesn't matter. Even if MVP switches, it should not affect you. Play whatever you like best, watch whatever esport entertains you and be a happy man. Cut these shitstorms out. Pretty much yeah. In general for me I prefer to watch StarCraft 2, and after that it's Marvel/Street Fighter. I don't find any enjoyment in watching LoL but I respect that people do and good for them. When I see this kind of LoL vs SC2 shitstorm from fans of both I honestly want nothing to do with either. The silly arguing of the fans over which game is "better" makes me enjoy the eSports themselves a bit less. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:16 SlowBullets wrote: rofl no. People underestimate the skill level in MOBAs...it is definitely harder than SC2, lol. Hmmmm so all the unsuccessful sc2 players who lacked the skill to keep up just decided to switch to LoL because it is harder? Yeah right. If SC2 was easier you would see LoL players switching. | ||
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SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:17 mango_destroyer wrote: Hmmmm so all the unsuccessful sc2 players who lacked the skill to keep up just decided to switch to LoL because it is harder? Yeah right. If SC2 was easier you would see LoL players switching. It's harder (but it's really not hard in the grand scheme of things) , but still fun, which in the end is why you keep playing the game. Do you really think people switch games for the sole purpose of easiness? Fun factor is important too, and it clearly shows by the fan base at the moment. Hell, even the PC cafe I went to lately in NY had LoL players EVERYWHERE. | ||
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Nacht1331
United States15 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:16 SlowBullets wrote: rofl no. People underestimate the skill level in MOBAs...it is definitely harder than SC2, lol. I think you under estimate the skill involved in checkers =P To be honest, chess to checkers is a great example. Chess is extremely formulaic in the beginning, with more freedom and quicker thinking being the key to the end game. Checkers is a constant series of making more strategic moves, focusing on simple goals. I still say Tennis vs Soccer is a better example. You can't win in Soccer by yourself, and tennis is also extremely hard to master. They're both hard in their own ways. I would say, and most people I've met, say that LoL is much easier on a personal level. To be professionally good is another matter entirely, since you have to have teamwork. However, on average, SC is harder on an individual case by case basis. | ||
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mememolly
4765 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:31 Dodgin wrote: It's not like Destiny is a professional in LoL or anything, I heard his stream numbers are quite bad nowadays as well ;o over 2k, not bad considering he has relatively low elo atm | ||
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mememolly
4765 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:17 mango_destroyer wrote: Hmmmm so all the unsuccessful sc2 players who lacked the skill to keep up just decided to switch to LoL because it is harder? Yeah right. If SC2 was easier you would see LoL players switching. Coca was one of the best up and coming zergs in korea, he switched to LoL because more money and audience, good players are switching and less good ones, fact is mobas are huge and sc2 has a smaller audience and so less money, with those elements in mind it's understandable why so many players are switching | ||
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DPK
Canada487 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:16 SlowBullets wrote: rofl no. People underestimate the skill level in MOBAs...it is definitely harder than SC2, lol. LOL, sorry but this is the most nonsense comment ever. Sc2 players who are switching to LoL is exactly because LoL is easier to play... It's a fact. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:28 Ace.Xile wrote: which is almost the exact same as sc2, over half the games nothing happens in the first 15 minutes. In LoL nothing happens in the firsr 30 mins or so Particularly when CLG.eu plays What a snorefest | ||
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mememolly
4765 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:58 DPK wrote: LOL, sorry but this is the most nonsense comment ever. Sc2 players who are switching to LoL is exactly because LoL is easier to play... It's a fact. you haven't played LoL or sc2 at a high level have you? | ||
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Antyee
Hungary1011 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:58 mordk wrote: In LoL nothing happens in the firsr 30 mins or so Particularly when CLG.eu plays What a snorefest Yet, bw TvT was one of the most interesting matchup. Depends on your understanding of the game. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On November 24 2012 08:03 Antyee wrote: Yet, bw TvT was one of the most interesting matchup. Depends on your understanding of the game. In BW TvT tons of things happened. By my experience watching LoL the reason that happens in LoL is bascially only that the strategies are too young. Either teams are way too vulnerable to ganks, or they turtle like crazy. Laning phase isn't really a very developed thing in LoL, at least yet. IMO the biggest factor in that is the lack of denying. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On November 24 2012 07:58 DPK wrote: LOL, sorry but this is the most nonsense comment ever. Sc2 players who are switching to LoL is exactly because LoL is easier to play... It's a fact. I would assume it is because LoL is more fun to play. Not because it is easier. SC2 is stressful, not because it is mechanically demanding, but because you can lose to such random bullshit. SC2 is not fun to play | ||
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Antyee
Hungary1011 Posts
On November 24 2012 08:05 mordk wrote: In BW TvT tons of things happened. By my experience watching LoL the reason that happens in LoL is bascially only that the strategies are too young. Either teams are way too vulnerable to ganks, or they turtle like crazy. Laning phase isn't really a very developed thing in LoL, at least yet. IMO the biggest factor in that is the lack of denying. Give korean teams a try. They play earlygame way better. OGN is still going on. | ||
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
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TahoeRacer
United States18 Posts
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On November 24 2012 06:49 Al Bundy wrote: Ok guys, we get it. Starcraft is hardcore and stressful, LoL is casual and fun. Can we move on? Yet BW was even more hardcore but less stressful. Why? because you could do mistakes in BW and still come back. In SC2 it was become so easy to move an army with almost maximum efficiency that if a player did a mistake, you can punish him by winning the game (while in BW you would punish him by taking an expo or by destroying one of his). I think that fundamental difference is what makes SC2 almost unwatchable for so many koreans while BW is like an action game of chess, where there is an overal strategy AND great controls that come with it. I seriously get pissed when people think everything is fine in SC2 (other than balance). Seriously, fuck balance, who cares when the game is in such an early phase? Why don't people try to tell Blizzard to fix their more-and-more unpopular game. Why don't they fix it now while there are still people (like me) who actually gives a shit so are posting on a SC2 forum, instead of just moving on to a game that is watchable and not as frustrating to play? Hard =/= frustrating. BW was hard, but not frustrating (except when units were going all over the map for no reasons). Sc2 is not hard (yet harder in a mechanic point of view than LoL), but it is very frustrating (no unranked games, which is coming however. No smurfing, almost no combacks unless the opponents screws up). Seriously, about the no-smurfing.. what the fuck? in the era of free to play, Blizzard forces us to buy another liscense to have another account? are you kidding me? You don't have the Halo of the 2005-or-so era.. people don't consider your games the best of the best anymore.. jesus christ. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On November 24 2012 08:15 Patate wrote: Yet BW was even more hardcore but less stressful. Why? because you could do mistakes in BW and still come back. In SC2 it was become so easy to move an army with almost maximum efficiency that if a player did a mistake, you can punish him by winning the game (while in BW you would punish him by taking an expo or by destroying one of his). I think that fundamental difference is what makes SC2 almost unwatchable for so many koreans while BW is like an action game of chess, where there is an overal strategy AND great controls that come with it. I seriously get pissed when people think everything is fine in SC2 (other than balance). Seriously, fuck balance, who cares when the game is in such an early phase? Why don't people try to tell Blizzard to fix their more-and-more unpopular game. Why don't they fix it now while there are still people (like me) who actually gives a shit so are posting on a SC2 forum, instead of just moving on to a game that is watchable and not as frustrating to play? Hard =/= frustrating. BW was hard, but not frustrating (except when units were going all over the map for no reasons). Sc2 is not hard (yet harder in a mechanic point of view than LoL), but it is very frustrating (no unranked games, which is coming however. No smurfing, almost no combacks unless the opponents screws up). Seriously, about the no-smurfing.. what the fuck? in the era of free to play, Blizzard forces us to buy another liscense to have another account? are you kidding me? You don't have the Halo of the 2005-or-so era.. people don't consider your games the best of the best anymore.. jesus christ. I can't argue with that, what you said makes sense. It's true that Sc2 could be more competitive than it is now, and it definitely could be more fun. | ||
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ES.Genie
Germany1370 Posts
On November 24 2012 08:06 magnaflow wrote: I would assume it is because LoL is more fun to play. Not because it is easier. SC2 is stressful, not because it is mechanically demanding, but because you can lose to such random bullshit. SC2 is not fun to play Most popular RTS: Not fun to play. I guess SC2 fans are masochists. | ||
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BlackGosu
Canada1046 Posts
that being said, mobas are simply more fun than sc2. i can see the pros losing interest in sc2 as the majority have. the game is just too stale right now. every game is turtle to 200/200 for a deathball battle | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
On November 24 2012 08:26 BlackGosu wrote: they require different skill sets. sc2 requires more dexterity and reaction, while dota and lol require more team coordination and strategy that being said, mobas are simply more fun than sc2. i can see the pros losing interest in sc2 as the majority have. the game is just too stale right now. every game is turtle to 200/200 for a deathball battle The majority? Source? "More fun" is an opinion thing as well. More accessible, yes. More fun? Opinion. I don't find mobas to be very fun. If I'm playing with some people I actually know they're fun, but for me StarCraft/WarCraft have always been fun with friends or with randoms. Ladder or custom games. Moba and RTS are two different genres with two different groups of fans with a pretty decent amount of overlap between the two. Doesn't matter that one spawned the other. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32739 Posts
On November 24 2012 08:59 dynwar7 wrote: Here we go again...pessimistic people saying SC2 is dead... Apparently one player moving to LoL means the whole SC2 community is dead. It's sad seeing inori leave, but really, he never was the best player, its not like the SC2 community lost a cornerstone of the scene. Hope he finds a better future in LoL, but there is a reason why all the SC2 pros who moved to LoL have yet to find success, because the LoL scene is probably just as competitive and difficult to break in as the SC2 scene. | ||
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SPHERE-Xecutor
2 Posts
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BlackGosu
Canada1046 Posts
On November 24 2012 08:36 MVega wrote: The majority? Source? "More fun" is an opinion thing as well. More accessible, yes. More fun? Opinion. I don't find mobas to be very fun. If I'm playing with some people I actually know they're fun, but for me StarCraft/WarCraft have always been fun with friends or with randoms. Ladder or custom games. Moba and RTS are two different genres with two different groups of fans with a pretty decent amount of overlap between the two. Doesn't matter that one spawned the other. just look at the viewer numbers go down. the player base has gone way down the past year. divisions in ladder dont even amount to 100. fun is indeed subjective. however, the playerbase in either moba simply dwarf sc2's. my friends and i dont even follow the scene much anymore. often, we just check the spoilers for results, or if its the grandfinal for GSL or a big tournament, then we may tune in. although every game was cheese back then, the gsl in the very beginning was far more entertaining than it is now | ||
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 24 2012 09:17 BlackGosu wrote: just look at the viewer numbers go down. the player base has gone way down the past year. divisions in ladder dont even amount to 100. fun is indeed subjective. however, the playerbase in either moba simply dwarf sc2's. my friends and i dont even follow the scene much anymore. often, we just check the spoilers for results, or if its the grandfinal for GSL or a big tournament, then we may tune in. although every game was cheese back then, the gsl in the very beginning was far more entertaining than it is now Free to play also has a significant factor in this. Also again moba's are a lot more casual friendly, both of those are why they are more popular. But it doesn't matter it's not killing sc2 at all and I imagine hots will bring back more viewers then now and then it will die down then the protoss expansion will do the same thing and then it'll die down and even out again. | ||
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schimmetje
Netherlands1104 Posts
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
On November 24 2012 09:29 schimmetje wrote: It's easier for a casual to get in to and it feels better when you lose if you can tell yourself it's not this is why i only play 3v3/4v4. i only play 2 or 3 games a day so i prefer not playing 1v1 ladder | ||
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Novalisk
Israel1818 Posts
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
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Qntc.YuMe
United States792 Posts
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Azarkon
United States21060 Posts
BabyKnight switched to SC 2 from Dota and has been doing pretty well. | ||
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eSc_Kin
Hong Kong25 Posts
then never get the victory thats not about LoL or SC2 | ||
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DanLee
Canada316 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:10 Disposition1989 wrote: Player stream numbers are down across the board so there's that. Total viewership is still climbing though according to twitch. The drop in numbers on each individual stream is due to a big increase in number of streams to watch, more tournaments, more and more players deciding to stream. If we had half the streams available, we would have twice the viewers on each stream. Mind blowing, i know. | ||
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ThePlayer33
Australia2378 Posts
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MythZero
Korea (South)102 Posts
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farvacola
United States18820 Posts
On November 24 2012 09:54 Azarkon wrote: Different genres call for different skills, but dedication to practice and professionalism does not change between games. BabyKnight switched to SC 2 from Dota and has been doing pretty well. BabyKnight seems like the sort of player who just naturally excels at certain kinds of competitive gaming, especially with him being so young. Just gotta hope he sticks with Sc2, though his recent successes would indicate he's not going anywhere. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On November 24 2012 09:44 dutchfriese wrote: What are the big LoL tournaments? I honestly have no idea, the only time I ever hear about one is when featured during a major SC2 tournament. It is part of most major events. You do realize that DH, MLG, IPL and countless other events aren't being held just because of SC2. While SC2 may be the main stage game (currently) LoL draws in a much larger live crowd, and online viewers. The reason you may never think you see it is because you are just not that into it. The scene is growing because it has a active community, while the SC2 community isn't dying, it most certainly has, and continues to shrink. | ||
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Patate
Canada441 Posts
On November 24 2012 11:18 magnaflow wrote: It is part of most major events. You do realize that DH, MLG, IPL and countless other events aren't being held just because of SC2. While SC2 may be the main stage game (currently) LoL draws in a much larger live crowd, and online viewers. The reason you may never think you see it is because you are just not that into it. The scene is growing because it has a active community, while the SC2 community isn't dying, it most certainly has, and continues to shrink. Exactly, I couldn't even understand how there could be a fighting games scene but apparently there are. And yet you never hear of it because you're not into it, Esports is still very much underground (except what Korean BW used to be, and currently Korean LoL). | ||
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Trasko
Sweden983 Posts
More people moving to LoL! It's okay though. Competition is tough and best of luck to Inori! | ||
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smashlloyd20
251 Posts
But yeah, people should keep in mind there are other ESports besides SC2, dota, and LoL. Fighting games and such have scenes, LoL is just the one most similar to SC2 (besides DOTA) so people tend to switch to it. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On November 24 2012 11:48 smashlloyd20 wrote: Poor inori, I've watched quite a few of his games and he was interesting to watch, if not a particularly amazing player But yeah, people should keep in mind there are other ESports besides SC2, dota, and LoL. Fighting games and such have scenes, LoL is just the one most similar to SC2 (besides DOTA) so people tend to switch to it. It's the one with the easiest money. That's the draw. The mechanical skill ceiling is quite low, the game is simple, and the money is vastly easier to get near than other games. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote: but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Well, LoL is much more mechanically easy, so at a superficial value it seems easier, which is what draws so many sc2 gamers. However, its difficulties are much more subtle, so in time Inori will probably be a sad panda | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On November 24 2012 11:54 LuckoftheIrish wrote: It's the one with the easiest money. That's the draw. The mechanical skill ceiling is quite low, the game is simple, and the money is vastly easier to get near than other games. That is not the draw. The money is just as tough to reach in LoL then in any other game. More players, more teams, more competition. The draw is the fun. LoL is just more fun to play then SC2. If you hated your job woudl you stick with it, or would you find another job? I bet you most players hate this game, but play it cause they think they have too | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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boxturtle
United States224 Posts
On November 24 2012 12:05 magnaflow wrote: That is not the draw. The money is just as tough to reach in LoL then in any other game. More players, more teams, more competition. The draw is the fun. LoL is just more fun to play then SC2. If you hated your job woudl you stick with it, or would you find another job? I bet you most players hate this game, but play it cause they think they have too This, this. Also you can actually play LoL extremely lazily and still do alright You can get high and chill out in solo queue for hours on end. I'd be sick of Starcraft 2 if I played ladder for even 4+ hours a day for a sustained period of time. If I hadn't found a better game than LoL in DotA2, I could just sit there and enjoy some LoL all day. I don't think it's really any fault of Blizzard's that Starcraft 2 is not fun to grind out. That probably has more to do with custom games and relaxation options offered in Starcraft 2. In Warcraft 3, dota was everyone's relaxation game. That speaks volumes for the giant difference in genres between RTS and MOBA. I can't imagine it really being fun to be a SC2 pro unless you just really, really, really loved the game. I've played at most 2 hours of ladders a day for sustained periods of time and taken a break shortly after reaching whatever objectives I set for myself. I don't think Broodwar has any real advantage in play either, because I found it boring, dull, and just a bad game to play overall. I think that if it were judged only for gameplay, Broodwar would be below Diablo 3 in terms of enjoyment. I think Starcraft 2, like it's predecessor, are completely linked to e-sports. Although I think Starcraft 2 is leaps and bounds better than Broodwar, I doubt that a "hard game" would stay around just because it was challenging. If there was no pro scene, people would wonder why they have such a demanding and challenging hobby. Starcraft's niche is the competitive gaming side. LoL also fulfills that niche while also being better for chilling and veging out, playing with friends, and "building" your account. LoL is not an e-sport first. It is a video game first. I think that's the real key to LoL's success. Starcraft launched without the features that it really needed to make it an incredible pastime like LoL. The custom game system and map editor are horrible. There is no monetary compensation, and map creation isn't much easier than making a cell phone game. iOS and Android OS are competitors Blizzard should have definitely considered when they drew out the arcade system and the Galaxy editor. I think Blizzard looked towards Broodwar instead of Warcraft 3 too much. Warcraft 3 had much more success. Even now, millions of people are playing a Warcraft 3 mod. Broodwar was popular in 1 country, an isolated phenomenon. They forgot the massive draw of the custom game system. Warcraft 3's custom game system was such a massive draw. DotA, which was spawned by this system remains the most played game in the world by far today, with no one even coming close. Other games also spawned out of WC3, and entire programming crazes like the mass of Tower Defense games. The game propelled a generation of amateur programers and gamers. The entire industry today has been changed so much by WC3's map editor. If I could name 1 game that changed the surface for the gaming world in the recent era, it'd be Warcraft 3. | ||
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dutchfriese
2554 Posts
On November 24 2012 11:18 magnaflow wrote: While SC2 may be the main stage game (currently) LoL draws in a much larger live crowd, and online viewers. do you have concrete data supporting these claims? I'm curious but do not want to dig through 17 pages. You are correct i have not noticed because of my lack of interest. I don't watch much esports outside of GSL. We should be candid about brood war though... I would be willing to bet far, far more people play lol than brood war. | ||
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KingDime
Canada750 Posts
On November 24 2012 13:30 boxturtle wrote: This, this. Also you can actually play LoL extremely lazily and still do alright You can get high and chill out in solo queue for hours on end. I'd be sick of Starcraft 2 if I played ladder for even 4+ hours a day for a sustained period of time. If I hadn't found a better game than LoL in DotA2, I could just sit there and enjoy some LoL all day. I don't think it's really any fault of Blizzard's that Starcraft 2 is not fun to grind out. That probably has more to do with custom games and relaxation options offered in Starcraft 2. In Warcraft 3, dota was everyone's relaxation game. That speaks volumes for the giant difference in genres between RTS and MOBA. I can't imagine it really being fun to be a SC2 pro unless you just really, really, really loved the game. I've played at most 2 hours of ladders a day for sustained periods of time and taken a break shortly after reaching whatever objectives I set for myself. I don't think Broodwar has any real advantage in play either, because I found it boring, dull, and just a bad game to play overall. I think that if it were judged only for gameplay, Broodwar would be below Diablo 3 in terms of enjoyment. I think Starcraft 2, like it's predecessor, are completely linked to e-sports. Although I think Starcraft 2 is leaps and bounds better than Broodwar, I doubt that a "hard game" would stay around just because it was challenging. If there was no pro scene, people would wonder why they have such a demanding and challenging hobby. Starcraft's niche is the competitive gaming side. LoL also fulfills that niche while also being better for chilling and veging out, playing with friends, and "building" your account. LoL is not an e-sport first. It is a video game first. I think that's the real key to LoL's success. Starcraft launched without the features that it really needed to make it an incredible pastime like LoL. The custom game system and map editor are horrible. There is no monetary compensation, and map creation isn't much easier than making a cell phone game. iOS and Android OS are competitors Blizzard should have definitely considered when they drew out the arcade system and the Galaxy editor. I think Blizzard looked towards Broodwar instead of Warcraft 3 too much. Warcraft 3 had much more success. Even now, millions of people are playing a Warcraft 3 mod. Broodwar was popular in 1 country, an isolated phenomenon. They forgot the massive draw of the custom game system. Warcraft 3's custom game system was such a massive draw. DotA, which was spawned by this system remains the most played game in the world by far today, with no one even coming close. Other games also spawned out of WC3, and entire programming crazes like the mass of Tower Defense games. The game propelled a generation of amateur programers and gamers. The entire industry today has been changed so much by WC3's map editor. If I could name 1 game that changed the surface for the gaming world in the recent era, it'd be Warcraft 3. And I find games where you can do extremely well with no effort insanely boring because they have no depth and cannot keep my interest for a prolonged period of time.... Also, the stress portion should be largely changed when unranked play comes out in HOTS. It's like when I used to play hockey where there were recreational and competitive divisions. It'll be nice for people to have that choice when the expansion comes out. | ||
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TheSurgeonTV
United States131 Posts
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WetSocks
United States953 Posts
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BlackGosu
Canada1046 Posts
On November 24 2012 13:44 KingDime wrote: And I find games where you can do extremely well with no effort insanely boring because they have no depth and cannot keep my interest for a prolonged period of time.... Also, the stress portion should be largely changed when unranked play comes out in HOTS. It's like when I used to play hockey where there were recreational and competitive divisions. It'll be nice for people to have that choice when the expansion comes out. unranked ladder has nothing to do with it. you can play custom 1v1s already, but people are still not willing. the problem lies within the core gameplay. in sc2 you have to be constantly doing something, the moment you blink, is the moment your opponent gains a significant lead. you miss an inject, or chronoboost, and that will matter a lot. the game simply isnt fun to grind. you have to keep your eyes glued on the screen and not fuck up. on the other hand, in LoL or dota2, you dont have to assert 100% of your focus like sc2 requires. if you know what im talking about | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On November 24 2012 12:53 wei2coolman wrote: I'm a huge League fan, but I almost find it insulting that pros from SC2, and SC:BW think they can just switch to LoL and expect easy success. When have you ever heard any player that has switched say anything like that at all? | ||
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KingDime
Canada750 Posts
And how is either dota or lol more fun to grind. Granted, a good match is a lot of fun but I would argue the same for sc2. But then there are games involving bad teammates, people who can't do proper builds, supports that don't buy wards, the afk guy etc etc etc. Now i'm stuck in a 30 minute game that is essentially pointless as the other team rolls you over. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On November 24 2012 13:44 KingDime wrote: And I find games where you can do extremely well with no effort insanely boring because they have no depth and cannot keep my interest for a prolonged period of time.... Also, the stress portion should be largely changed when unranked play comes out in HOTS. It's like when I used to play hockey where there were recreational and competitive divisions. It'll be nice for people to have that choice when the expansion comes out. How many people are really going to be playing on the unranked ladder? Probably not as many as some people might think. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
I'm surprised you guys just don't know how to drop it. I think GTR hit the nail on the coffin on the first page. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On November 24 2012 14:42 KingDime wrote: ummmm if you're not concentrating 100% in dota you will likely be missing last hits or proper timings on pulls or simply missing things on the minimap that you normally shouldn't. You get behind on your build and will be more likely to lose if you're playing a somewhat even match. No different from sc2 except it involves last hitting instead of your macro. It sounds like the games that you play are against teams much worse that your own. And how is either dota or lol more fun to grind. Granted, a good match is a lot of fun but I would argue the same for sc2. But then there are games involving bad teammates, people who can't do proper builds, supports that don't buy wards, the afk guy etc etc etc. Now i'm stuck in a 30 minute game that is essentially pointless as the other team rolls you over. Cause you will only get that in 1-2 matches out of 10 (in my experience in both Dota or LoL anyways) and even thenit is still more fun then sitting in your base for 20 (artificial minutes) only to get rolled over cause you left your tanks unsieged, or you didn't make enough colossus, or you didn't build infestors. And (for me anyways) the feeling of winning in either Dota2 or LoL far outweighs the feeling of losing. Where as with SC2 when you win it's like "meh" hit find match and go again, but when you lose it" OIHJ#@$PO*!@$#()*QWYEOIUQHWWSDKLJHQWE" and then head to your local electronics store to replace your keyboard or mouse. | ||
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taLbuk
Madagascar1879 Posts
On November 24 2012 09:41 Novalisk wrote: Considering how LoL's metagame hasn't changed in ages, and the champion pool becoming oversaturated, it's impressive how LoL is still growing. this actually made me laugh, i assume you don't even follow the game do you? LoL has seen the most shift in the meta in the last 8 months since asian teams came to prominence, hell, half the hero pool would have been deemed not viable for competitive play and are seen constantly now defined role positions =/= metagame | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On November 24 2012 12:53 wei2coolman wrote: I'm a huge League fan, but I almost find it insulting that pros from SC2, and SC:BW think they can just switch to LoL and expect easy success. They just need to find a decent team and start from there. The scene is young enough to allow new pretenders to get in rather easily, in comparison to more established scenes. It's got nothing to do with how "easy" the game is, which in DotA-likes depends almost exclusively on the metagame and the teams in the scene, instead of "mechanic" factors. These games are hard for reasons different from SC2, but those who haven't played both games and haven't invested in both scenes can't seem to grasp this concept. | ||
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ZerglingTwins
United States850 Posts
On November 24 2012 12:53 wei2coolman wrote: I'm a huge League fan, but I almost find it insulting that pros from SC2, and SC:BW think they can just switch to LoL and expect easy success. I think most of them just believe they will maintain their ranking like in SC2. If they are No.100 in SC2, they think they will be No.100 in LoL. But they just believe or were told that life situation of No.100 in LoL is better than in SC2. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
In other words, you guys are retarded for arguing about which is harder. Unless you want to do detailed analysis but I haven't seen any of that whatsoever in the dozens of SC2 vs LoL threads I've had the misfortune to read. Stop overreacting to every little piece of news. There are so many SC2 pros, doubt anybody cares about Inori except for the fact it gives retards an opportunity to confirm their biases with every little piece of information that can be construed as evidence. LoL fans (and SC2 fans who get drawn into these arguments), you aren't doing yourselves any favors. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On November 24 2012 15:29 mordk wrote: They just need to find a decent team and start from there. The scene is young enough to allow new pretenders to get in rather easily, in comparison to more established scenes. It's got nothing to do with how "easy" the game is, which in DotA-likes depends almost exclusively on the metagame and the teams in the scene, instead of "mechanic" factors. These games are hard for reasons different from SC2, but those who haven't played both games and haven't invested in both scenes can't seem to grasp this concept. This is the crux of the argument. They are different games. Poker is pretty hard, and it has 0 mechanical difficulty. Thing is, I feel like high level SC2 strategy is not understood by most viewers. The game is much more complex than it appears. LoL and Dota2 may focus more on strategy than mechanics, but a game like Brood War (and maybe SC2, if not now perhaps in the future) is more difficult in terms of mechanics as well as deeper strategically. Hence why I think BW is the ultimate e-sport. | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
While one of the above posters was attempting to insult StarCraft s/he did hit the nail on the head, just not how s/he intended. If a person doesn't like their job but they do like their field, they may try another job in the same field. If a player can't make it as a StarCraft player but wants to continue a career in eSports then they might as well try LoL or Dota. Not that either of those things are "better" (or "worse") but they are the only other eSports that offer competitive money at the moment. | ||
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Nacht1331
United States15 Posts
On November 24 2012 14:23 BlackGosu wrote: unranked ladder has nothing to do with it. you can play custom 1v1s already, but people are still not willing. the problem lies within the core gameplay. in sc2 you have to be constantly doing something, the moment you blink, is the moment your opponent gains a significant lead. you miss an inject, or chronoboost, and that will matter a lot. the game simply isnt fun to grind. you have to keep your eyes glued on the screen and not fuck up. on the other hand, in LoL or dota2, you dont have to assert 100% of your focus like sc2 requires. if you know what im talking about I find that it actually has everything to do with it. I enjoy laddering in unranked on HotS beta. It's fun to play however I want. It's fun to just do stupid things for the sake of having fun. It's like trolling team games. Also, that mentality is what makes SC not fun for you, not the game itself. If you don't pay attention in League, yo get ganked, you miss hits, you screw up items, you whiff kills, etc. You convince yourself that you HAVE to be doing well at SC, but not at LoL. It's all in your head. Now if you don't like RTS games, that's something completely different. I personally don't like League. Playing it on my own is boring, it has no substance and no real skill. It doesn't even matter if you're good since your teammates can just drag you straight down. There's penalties for just about everything you do as well. Leave a game? Be careful, you might get banned. There's also no way to even try to play single player. You can't just chill on your own and do your own thing all the time. That's why I like CoD and FPS games waaaaaay more than MOBAs. MOBAs are really only fun when you play with friends, and that's because you're playing with friends (IMO). You can play an FPS, and if you're good, you can still win or you can still have fun and do well, even if your team is bad. I can go ladder for a few hours and relieve some stress, and then play customs and team games with friends. I can only play LoL with friends. Furthermore, LoL doesn't run on Mac, which is also a huge incentive for me to just not play it (since I game on a macbook). On November 23 2012 18:30 JonIrenicus wrote: I confused Inori for Symbol if I must be sincere. Thank you for clarifying that he had almost no results, you made me search him on liquipedia. On the other hand, he did a good choice anyway. Destiny didn't retire for the results, or at least I think so. He didn't need to have results, to sustain himself or his family. He just needed a good load of viewers. Destiny has always run himself off of his views on streaming. he never had any results except a few times when the infestors were uber-broken and no one knew how to deal with them. Then he had 3-4 major issues come up and resulted in him getting kicked off team after team, like Naniwa. The difference is that he had no results. Destiny NEEDS streaming to make a living. Thus he switched to what he felt would get him the most views. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
Never impressed me in any other matchup and Tal'darim PvP ain't exactly my cup of tea so i could care less, there are to many people playing this game for miserable salaries and not getting any results, if they can get money from LoL or play half-time and got to college i say it's good raddiance for us and good raddiance for them. | ||
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LimitSEA
Australia9580 Posts
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fireforce7
United States334 Posts
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On November 24 2012 15:15 taLbuk wrote: this actually made me laugh, i assume you don't even follow the game do you? LoL has seen the most shift in the meta in the last 8 months since asian teams came to prominence, hell, half the hero pool would have been deemed not viable for competitive play and are seen constantly now defined role positions =/= metagame Since when did playing super poke comp after banning crazy initiative tanky heros like malphite and amumu = shift in meta? LoL has been nothing but either playing super poke or hard initiative style for ages. Just the korean found a way to be even more "poky" than the rest | ||
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Twilight Sparkle
Australia235 Posts
On November 24 2012 14:42 KingDime wrote: ummmm if you're not concentrating 100% in dota you will likely be missing last hits or proper timings on pulls or simply missing things on the minimap that you normally shouldn't. You get behind on your build and will be more likely to lose if you're playing a somewhat even match. No different from sc2 except it involves last hitting instead of your macro. It sounds like the games that you play are against teams much worse that your own. I love DotA and all, but playing it is nothing like playing SC2. Starcraft requires constant multitasking and attention to ten different spots on the map simultaneously, in DotA you control one unit (generally) and do one thing at a time. It's normally a terrible way to measure anything, but in this case APM is a pretty good indicator of effort - for Starcraft you should be at, say, 200+ to be playing well, whereas DotA you can get away with half that and still have actions to spare. DotA has a much bigger emphasis on tactics and positioning than on sheer mechanical skill, which makes it much easier to play for a long time. | ||
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
On November 24 2012 12:04 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Well, LoL is much more mechanically easy, so at a superficial value it seems easier, which is what draws so many sc2 gamers. However, its difficulties are much more subtle, so in time Inori will probably be a sad panda That's not it. LoL in Korea is huge and it's growing. Simple as that. Doubt he thinks it's easier. | ||
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
On November 24 2012 18:58 Twilight Sparkle wrote: I love DotA and all, but playing it is nothing like playing SC2. Starcraft requires constant multitasking and attention to ten different spots on the map simultaneously, in DotA you control one unit (generally) and do one thing at a time. It's normally a terrible way to measure anything, but in this case APM is a pretty good indicator of effort - for Starcraft you should be at, say, 200+ to be playing well, whereas DotA you can get away with half that and still have actions to spare. DotA has a much bigger emphasis on tactics and positioning than on sheer mechanical skill, which makes it much easier to play for a long time. Thus, it's easier to get into. However, skill ceiling is something else entirely. It's easy to see that players and teams in LoL are always getting better. Same thing is going on in SC2. In both games players will probably never hit skill ceiling. Arguing which game is harder when played beyond human potential is irrelevant. The true difficulty in competitive games is the competition. LoL sure has huge competitive scene. It's pretty much impossible to decide which game is harder to become pro in. | ||
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
On November 24 2012 18:49 iky43210 wrote: Since when did playing super poke comp after banning crazy initiative tanky heros like malphite and amumu = shift in meta? LoL has been nothing but either playing super poke or hard initiative style for ages. Just the korean found a way to be even more "poky" than the rest And in SC2 you have all-ins and macro games. SC2 hasn't changed in ages! | ||
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Knuppe
90 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote: but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. That is exactly what makes SC2 so much harder than pretty much all other games. If you lose in LOL you can always blame it on the team and if you aren't that good, your team can always carry you.. | ||
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Antyee
Hungary1011 Posts
On November 24 2012 19:24 Knuppe wrote: That is exactly what makes SC2 so much harder than pretty much all other games. If you lose in LOL you can always blame it on the team and if you aren't that good, your team can always carry you.. If you lose in starcraft, you can always blame it on the imbalance and/or the map. Easy as it is. If you aren't that good, you can still get carried by broodlord-infestor etc. ^.^ On November 24 2012 19:39 Talack wrote: I didn't realize inori was so loved by the community that he would warrent 19 pages of intense discussion lol Only 20-ish posts were about wishing him luck and stuff. Most of them have been "lol is easier because you have to click less" posts ~.~ | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 24 2012 19:39 Talack wrote: I didn't realize inori was so loved by the community that he would warrent 19 pages of intense discussion lol He's not, it just gives people an excuse to start the "sc2 is dying" bullshit again. It's pretty sad tbh.. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On November 24 2012 19:42 Fragile51 wrote: He's not, it just gives people an excuse to start the "sc2 is dying" bullshit again. It's pretty sad tbh.. spot on old chum | ||
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masterbreti
Korea (South)2711 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 24 2012 19:01 Spidinko wrote: That's not it. LoL in Korea is huge and it's growing. Simple as that. Doubt he thinks it's easier. I don't think that Koreans are switching to League because it's an easier game to play, but rather because it's easier to make money. League is growing faster than StarCraft 2 right now, especially in Korea. Riot Games has done a far superior job compared to Blizzard in terms of stimulating the proscene, there are way more fans (just look at the number of people watching streams over on solomid.net and then look at the numbers here), and those things translate into more opportunities to make money. If Korean players thought they could make more money playing the Sims professionally, you would see posts like "Inori retires from StarCraft 2, switches to The Sims." That's why players left Brood War for StarCraft 2, because StarCraft 2 was growing faster than Brood War and there were more opportunities for less known players to shine; Mvp and Taeja are going to be playing StarCraft 2 until there is no money left in it, just like Flash and Fantasy played StarCraft: Brood War until there was no money left in it. The writing is on the wall; myriads of B-Teamers like Inori are switching over to LoL just like BW players switched over to StarCraft 2; you even see Tasteless casting League of Legends over at GOM (which I realize doesn't necessarily mean anything, if StarCraft 2 was outpacing LoL he wouldn't take the time to do that). But anyways, that's not really important in this thread. What's important is this: good luck Inori, I hope to see you in The Champions or some other tournament. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 24 2012 20:56 masterbreti wrote: This is kinda sad. I met Inori back in June and he was doing really well, he was playing really solid, I'm rather depressed he decided to hang up his mouse, a teop level protoss player who was so very underrated by the community. Did you read the post, he didn't hang up his mouse, he just went to a more lucrative game. | ||
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Korean-MILF
Norway65 Posts
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3rw4cg/ | ||
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Leth0
856 Posts
On November 25 2012 02:08 The Final Boss wrote: Did you read the post, he didn't hang up his mouse, he just went to a more lucrative game. Last stats I heard there was a lot more prize money given out for SC2 this year than LoL. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 25 2012 02:40 Leth0 wrote: Last stats I heard there was a lot more prize money given out for SC2 this year than LoL. I'd be interested to see stats like that, but we should remember that prize money comes from sponsorship and other forms of corporate intervention. Blizzard decided that it wanted to control the SC2 professional scene and it has performed poorly in some respects. If LoL continues to draw more viewers than SC2, sponsors will increasingly be drawn to LoL over SC2. Of course it is possible to sponsor more than one thing at a time but whether or not the will to do so is there is another story. In the years before the professional BW scene ended, it was drawing sponsorships from banks and airlines. The vast majority of SC2 sponsors so far have been companies selling e-sports peripherals. That alone is something to be concerned about as it is evidence of the scene being somewhat inbred. | ||
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brieN
United States158 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 25 2012 06:26 brieN wrote: when you cant be good at a game that takes skill, jump to a game that a 12 year old can be a pro at Just like MVP, am I rite? p.s. I'd like to see you outplay a 12 year old at Contra | ||
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WigglingSquid
5194 Posts
SC2 doesn't seem to have that much in common with Dota games and, given how much competition there is already, I wonder how successful are those who switch. | ||
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OhThatDang
United States4685 Posts
. For one, Dota and LoL require teamplay to achieve success and you cant just be that one good player you gotta rely on your whole team to win the game. Obviously in starcraft you have a team to practice with and shit but when you play in most cases its 1v1 where all your skills transpire into one match and you dont need any backup or supports. What you guys are arguing is which game requires more skill which is irrelevant because its different types of skill sets required for both games. Obviously LoL and Dota you can play quite casually just like starcraft however youll have the same success rate win/loss ratio as you did in starcraft too because once you reach a certain point theres crazy meta games involved that casuals wouldnt know about. This shit is akin to moving mules before they die, using rocks, shit like that. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On November 25 2012 02:40 Leth0 wrote: Last stats I heard there was a lot more prize money given out for SC2 this year than LoL. The vast majority of that prize money is incredibly top-heavy. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 25 2012 02:40 Leth0 wrote: Last stats I heard there was a lot more prize money given out for SC2 this year than LoL. I would love to see those statistics, personally I find them a bit hard to believe. But as other people have mentioned, sponsorships also have been going more and more towards League of Legends as well as fans, because I can tell you that at any given point, there are more people watching League of Legends streams than there are people watching StarCraft 2. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 25 2012 06:26 brieN wrote: when you cant be good at a game that takes skill, jump to a game that a 12 year old can be a pro at Didn't sC move to LoL? sC was pretty damn good at StarCraft 2, I would say that he was one of the best players to never win a GSL. | ||
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iiGreetings
Canada563 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote: but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Your talking a little hypothetically... honestly LoL is in no way harder because it puts all the responsibility in 1 persons skill, and it just takes so much understanding and mechanics to be good at. They just had an entire league of players just transver over, the weaker pros will realize they can not win anymore and start to go elsewhere, its a cycle. Sure lol is expanding a lot and is also a team game so that helps much more for the amount of players needed on pro teams. | ||
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ZergCacique
United States28 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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act.hero
United States205 Posts
On November 25 2012 06:42 WigglingSquid wrote: I would be curious to read opinions from the "other side". LoL players must have an opinion on this trend, unless it actually is as irrelevant as one might fear. SC2 doesn't seem to have that much in common with Dota games and, given how much competition there is already, I wonder how successful are those who switch. LoL players don't really follow SC2 players switching over because most of them don't end up going anywhere with it. Usually when people say they're "switching to League" they haven't even gotten to 30, and will probably quit before they do. | ||
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MVega
763 Posts
I really wish Inori the best in his eSports career and whatever he does after eSports. He deserves a lot better than some of the comments he's getting. | ||
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GohgamX
Canada1096 Posts
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ppshchik
United States862 Posts
On November 23 2012 23:34 Meggiroth wrote: What are people smoking? LoL more complex than SC2??!?!?!? You have 5 units vs 5 units spaming spells at eachother and micro-ing a single unit most of the time. How can you compare that with sc2 pro lvl? There is no meta. Just map awareness and fast decision making during team clashes. Players like Inori leave for LoL because its an easier source for money. There is way more money thrown into LoL because of its large audience generated from copy pasting the dota concept, making it free and more easy than the not so noob-friendly dota. You have to study tons of heroes abilities and counters since you have to either play them or play against them in any MOBA. I used to play DOTA and I lose a lot after being inactive due to the introduction of new heroes. You can tell Flash to be inactive from either BW/SC2 for 2 years and he can still wipe the floor with amateurs afterwards. Studying hundreds of heroes > 3 races. The only downside of MOBA games are the maturity issues of the community. However after seeing Dramacraft 2 threads in TL/Reddit I realize that any non-BW community has maturity issues, not only MOBA. On November 23 2012 18:23 Integra wrote: The SC2 scene is incredible saturated of "pro players" at the moment and it's very discouraging for allot of the lower tiers pros to stick with it. LOL is much more forgiving. Exactly, back then people needed to win a courage tournament full of A+/Olympic level players to obtain a programer license in BW. Now in SC2 everyone and their mother is a "progamer" in SC2. Being a ""SC2 progamer" doesn't mean you have an edge over a "LoL progamer" since the definition of a SC2 progamer nowadays is a full-time player without any qualifications and guess what? There are full-time LoL players as well. | ||
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Epoch
Canada257 Posts
On November 24 2012 12:53 wei2coolman wrote: I'm a huge League fan, but I almost find it insulting that pros from SC2, and SC:BW think they can just switch to LoL and expect easy success. where did any of them ever say that they expect easy success in LoL? I've never heard such a statement from a pro sc player switching over. | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On November 25 2012 06:57 Stratos_speAr wrote: The vast majority of that prize money is incredibly top-heavy. in LoL you mean? Cause that is the case SC2: http://esportsearnings.com/games/1/starcraft_ii LoL: http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/14/league_of_legends I'm not sure on the numbers for this year alone, but in the lifetime of both games, (sc2 came out 2010, LoL in 2009) SC2 has given out $2.5 million more. SC2 has 13 players that have made over $100,000, LoL has 5 aka the 5 guys who won the s2 championships. Next highest are at $59k which isn't even in the top 25 of sc2. | ||
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Glenn313
United States475 Posts
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
On November 25 2012 08:30 The Final Boss wrote: Didn't sC move to LoL? sC was pretty damn good at StarCraft 2, I would say that he was one of the best players to never win a GSL. thats a stretch. He had a couple good GSL runs, but when i think of the best without a GSL title its more like MKP and Leenock. sC was never in that class imo. | ||
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ChuCky.Ca
Canada2497 Posts
On November 25 2012 09:53 ZergCacique wrote: can we just buried sc2 already User was warned for this post horrible troll and its bury* | ||
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RedLeaderDKM
United States9 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 25 2012 11:24 jmbthirteen wrote: thats a stretch. He had a couple good GSL runs, but when i think of the best without a GSL title its more like MKP and Leenock. sC was never in that class imo. I guess that's fair enough; I just remember back (I believe it was May 2011) when sC would have won a GSL except NesTea barely beat him 3-2. I guess by the time sC had retired he was just another Korean Terran who was pretty good, but there was definitely a point when sC was one of the best in the world. | ||
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Celestia
Mexico376 Posts
On November 25 2012 11:02 ppshchik wrote: You have to study tons of heroes abilities and counters since you have to either play them or play against them in any MOBA. I used to play DOTA and I lose a lot after being inactive due to the introduction of new heroes. You can tell Flash to be inactive from either BW/SC2 for 2 years and he can still wipe the floor with amateurs afterwards. Studying hundreds of heroes > 3 races. Terrible analogy, there's only 3 races but its not about learning what they are capable to do like heroes, its much deeper than that, if this wasn't true we would have a lot of Random Code S players and as I recall we don't have a single one. In any case I can argue that in MOBAs theres usually one competitive map while in SC2 you have to learn new maps every 2 seasons or something. | ||
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xtyxtbx
United States53 Posts
I think LoL has some competitiveness and lots of memorization, but nothing compared to SC2. Oh well, SC2 is still throwing out big money, and has 4 million strong, and still racks in around 100,000 viewers for MLG when LoL has 34 million players, and 180,000 viewers. Their game fan base may be strong. But their scene isn't. | ||
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SolarJto
United States260 Posts
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On November 25 2012 11:17 jmbthirteen wrote: in LoL you mean? Cause that is the case SC2: http://esportsearnings.com/games/1/starcraft_ii LoL: http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/14/league_of_legends I'm not sure on the numbers for this year alone, but in the lifetime of both games, (sc2 came out 2010, LoL in 2009) SC2 has given out $2.5 million more. SC2 has 13 players that have made over $100,000, LoL has 5 aka the 5 guys who won the s2 championships. Next highest are at $59k which isn't even in the top 25 of sc2. I can't believe people are still getting it so utterly wrong, citing http://www.esportsearnings.com without even interpreting all the information available on that site. Firstly you say LoL came out in 2009 true, but the first tournament with a prize pool even worth mentioning was the season one championship in 2011. The 2 years before, prize money was next to non-existent with a competitive scene funded almost exclusively by players. Secondly your way of comparing prize money between the games is awful as you are only taking in to acount total prize money and not prize money with respect to tournament. On the very site you list you can see that LoL has $3,722,346.76 for 60 tournaments while sc2 has $6,263,484.91 for 668 tournaments this figure is far more relevant than giving prize money accrued alone. Finally I think it's clear to everyone which game's players earn more from streaming, glance at Twitch right now if you aren't sure. | ||
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Fliparoni
205 Posts
LoL and other MOBA's will IMO in the long run be a bigger ESport attraction because of the nature of the genre, etc, and you know what? I don't have a problem with that whatsoever. I love playing and watching Starcraft 2. And as long as it's a healthy scene with it's own tournaments and streamers to watch, etc, I could care less if it's the biggest Esport around or if whether or not it's the hardest and most complicated game to learn etc etc etc. Now whether or not Starcraft will remain a healthy and viable Esport in the years to come and how good Blizzard is or isn't at maintaining that is a different topic for another thread. I just find all this comparing and attempted one-upmanship from fans on both sides about which game is bigger or not to be annoying. If you enjoy one or the other or both then enjoy it. Who cares if one game is bigger than the other. | ||
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Ponera
Canada596 Posts
I hope those that aren't as competitive in SC2 don't haemorrhage out into LoE. That would be terrible for SC2. bad for DotA2 and it would make LoE...well, I don't play the game but I honestly wish it well, cause it is well managed. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On November 25 2012 14:43 xtyxtbx wrote: All because LoL is free it's now the biggest game, it's so sad that all of it's supporters don't realize that if SC2 was free, it would kill LoL in a second. Such a shame to see a game like LoL get so big and take so many great SC2 players. GL Inori. Don't get me wrong I like LoL as a fun game to play with friends, but other than that, it's pretty much a joke. SC2 fails because it's not fun. Lol/Dota is. Video games are supposed to be fun... I doubt being f2p would help SC2 that much | ||
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bagpulanmata
Netherlands1 Post
For example in lol there are the streamers vman7,therainmain,hafu,angelofdeath,onlyjaximus,best riven na,phathom lord who are constatly making between 2000-7000 viewers without ever participating in any lol tournaments.They just stream all day long and make a living out of it just relying o the stream which is semi impossible in sc2.And probably there are tons more that I dont even know of.So thats already about 7 people making a living out of this game whiout participating in tournaments.Tink about how many sc2streamers are making a living without being somehow involved with a pro team or the tournament scene......I dont know anyone but if you could give me some names.. In terms of proplayer viewership here is no comparison.Ive seen lol players streaming constatly getting between 15000-30000.on their personal stream>not to mention the fact that compared to sc2 pros who consider themselves demigods and way below their dignity to stream lol top players stream constantly.Hotshotgg,Skocelote,Dyrus(along with the rest of the tsm),DSaint vicious are daily remember daily on streams playing for their fans. in sc2 well they dont stream that often and when they do stream its only for a couple of hours. Both sc2 and lol are good games but the design of lol and the mentality of a the pro community is much more different. Now put yourself in Inori and Destinys shoes;they are individuals who sacrificed their future,renouncing things such as jobs and education to practice videogames as jobs(aka the things your parents have to make money).If they dont win any tournaments in sc2 which is hard as hell they have 0 money to support themselves for food,clothes.shelter etc.For example destiny was getting like 1200 viewers playing sc2.Now with lol ive seen him last night with 3000 viewers streaming form Poland(which means not quite on par with the us time) which made my heart joy because he is a good entertainer.A lot of you here are 15 year old kids who dont know the pressure of having to do anything to buy food and pay the rent,not knowing where you are going to come up with the money for next day.These dudes dont have a job and are in their early 20s.They need to support themselves somehow.Microing marines doesnt keep you from going hungry. Also the pro community in lol is far way more tolerant towards streamers than sc2.Destiny and Orb were both shunned out of the community and constantly insulted by people such as Incontrol and Idra.IN lol you see gsl winning,mlg winning pro gamers playing along side with streamers and other random scrubs on ladder.Sometimes they get beaten,sometimes they rage but they never say:You know what get the fuuck out of this community.Tolerance goes a long way. Btw in lol is a lot less sexist than sc2 2.Ive seen on twitch at least 5 girls streming lol.THey were bad at it(like 1300 elo0 not making any money out of it,just streaming for fun but no one in chat or in the forums tld then gtfo you whhore,we dont wanna see your tits over here.The girls were there just having fun not bothering anyone.While in sc2 wel I remeber when SlayersEve, a very nice looking girl who could bring lots of casuls started sc2 there were posts all over teamliquid,on blizzard forums forms and youtube shunning her,insulting her telling her to gtfo of the proscene when the girl was just trying to play a game and maybe bring in some viewers that wouldnt normally watch this sort of thing.Not to mention that there was that supermodel Tarabcock or something who wasn't even part of the proscene just randomly streaming insulted here on tl or.Or that pornstar mia rose who actually had viewers on twitch insulted by incontrol.The sc2 scene is far less tolerant.You have bad progamrers such as incontorll throwing away the casual audienece(although the guy hasnt won any tournament in ages). Surprinsingly these people are well tolerated within the lol and wow communitites. The good thing about sc2 is that it is an actual esport and has high level quility tournament players such as Mvp,mma,hero,nestea etc which bring some fans.But as far as the streamer scene and the community it is still dominated by a small minory of overzealous snobish fanatics who scare off casual players and send emails to sponsors.In which video game do the fans of the game themselves send emails to sponsors to kick out a progamer???And btw destiny was the only streamer making a living solely out of streaming in the sc2 community and the community just threw him away.sc2 doesnt have less viewers because of blizzard.pro players arent leaving because of blizzard.They are leaving because of an overtly intolerant community which can not generate enough revenue to support their basic needs such as food/water/.Also the high levle of competition means that unless you get below 3rd place youre basicly dead until the next tournament. If people in this community would just relax,alow noobs to rear their heads on stream without being insulted by bad greedy progamers such as incontrol or by the 1000 litte sc2 fanatics maybe more people would pick up sc2.Otherwise good luck with sending email to sponsors and watching incontrols bad play because if this thing keeps up there will be roughly only 30 progamers in the sc2 community which wil participate and win every tournament.Blizzard can make the game as casual frindly as it wants.When in the moment you try to stream a game and dozens of people tell you youre bad/a woman etc and some well known dude in the community insults oyu on youtube and on stream nboody will wqant ot be part of this community. So in conclusion: 1.a far more tolerant community. 2.a far frindlyer and tolerant proscene 3.far more viewers on stream and acceptance form viewers. are the reasons why not so good progamers tend to switch to games such as lol/ | ||
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Emuking
United States144 Posts
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Nachtwind
Germany1130 Posts
On November 25 2012 21:02 Emuking wrote: Anyone want to play a good ol' fashioned game of wall ball? We can use the text above me; I'll bring the ball. And with this you proof that the guy is right, well done, good sir of brainafkness. | ||
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moochu
Australia374 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 25 2012 19:38 zezamer wrote: SC2 fails because it's not fun. Lol/Dota is. V Maybe it's not fun for you, but for me its the most fun in the world. | ||
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Fortidei
Romania33 Posts
On November 25 2012 21:09 moochu wrote: Out of curiosity how are these sc2 pros doing once they switch over to LoL? I heard Destiny is still struggling to break into the scene. | ||
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Mrpopescu
Romania20 Posts
On November 25 2012 21:09 moochu wrote: Out of curiosity how are these sc2 pros doing once they switch over to LoL? Dunno about the rest but Destiny had like 3000 viewers last night after a period of playing sc2 and getting max 1800.Also you have to take into consideration he is struggling at 1300 elo which is somewhat like silver in sc2.So for a silver level player to get 3000 viewers is preety good.And he is just at the beggining.If he reaches like 2000 elo combined with his entertainment skills he could have like 4000-5000 viewers..After that he can make fun of idra | ||
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Mrpopescu
Romania20 Posts
On November 25 2012 21:44 Fortidei wrote: I heard Destiny is still struggling to break into the scene. The scene in lol is not the same as in sc2.The streamer scene is a scene in its own there compared to sc2 where the proscene is vital.Destiny already played and is somehow friends with phantomlord a streamer that gets anywhere from 3000-7000 viewers.also he got coaching form xj9 a top ladder player last season.But with the ampunt of casualness and entertainment in the lol streamer scene there are infinite possibilitires.For those of you who remember Destinys long philosophic debates with his friend Kyle or with Minigun or his epic wars with Deezer and combatex..... well there are many outspoken lol players with which destiny can befriend and team up.imagine something as a lol team composed of Destiny+Kyle+deezer+Combatex+Minigun.Would be epic.And there are many lol streamers who could gladly fill the role. | ||
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Mrpopescu
Romania20 Posts
On November 25 2012 19:27 Ponera wrote: I really hope this isn't a trend: Sc2 pros 'retiring' and moving to League Of Easy. I mean even DotA, which I am just new to, looks down on LoE. I hope those that aren't as competitive in SC2 don't haemorrhage out into LoE. That would be terrible for SC2. bad for DotA2 and it would make LoE...well, I don't play the game but I honestly wish it well, cause it is well managed. Well league gives them more opportunities atm.Hope Hots changes the shift a little bit. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On November 25 2012 16:34 DonKey_ wrote: I can't believe people are still getting it so utterly wrong, citing http://www.esportsearnings.com without even interpreting all the information available on that site. Firstly you say LoL came out in 2009 true, but the first tournament with a prize pool even worth mentioning was the season one championship in 2011. The 2 years before, prize money was next to non-existent with a competitive scene funded almost exclusively by players. Secondly your way of comparing prize money between the games is awful as you are only taking in to acount total prize money and not prize money with respect to tournament. On the very site you list you can see that LoL has $3,722,346.76 for 60 tournaments while sc2 has $6,263,484.91 for 668 tournaments this figure is far more relevant than giving prize money accrued alone. Finally I think it's clear to everyone which game's players earn more from streaming, glance at Twitch right now if you aren't sure. Having money spread out among greater tournaments rather than allocated among a few is better for the pros. Instead of having 5 guys win a million bucks from 1 tournament, it's more sustainable for the scene long term to have a bunch of tournaments with much flatter prize distributions. Look at the WSOP, theres a reason why no pro relies on the main event for income. SC2 could use even flatter tournament distributions, so it's not just Mvp and 5 other koreans (and Stephano) making serious money while the rest are making scraps. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
On November 25 2012 21:18 Snowbear wrote: Maybe it's not fun for you, but for me its the most fun in the world. Yea I'm sorry, bad wording. What I mean that average player finds mobas way more fun than sc2. They should redesign some spells/units so that they'd be more "fun"/ interesting. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On November 25 2012 22:13 zefreak wrote: Having money spread out among greater tournaments rather than allocated among a few is better for the pros. Instead of having 5 guys win a million bucks from 1 tournament, it's more sustainable for the scene long term to have a bunch of tournaments with much flatter prize distributions. Look at the WSOP, theres a reason why no pro relies on the main event for income. SC2 could use even flatter tournament distributions, so it's not just Mvp and 5 other koreans (and Stephano) making serious money while the rest are making scraps. I don't understand why you are making a statement as though LoL tournaments are purposely limiting the number to a few tournaments with higher prize pools. That's not the case at all, prize money scale comparatively with both games, there is two real reasons why LoL has a lower number of tournaments listed on that site. The obvious one first, the LoL competitive scene is about a year younger than the sc2 one. The second reason is http://www.esportsearnings.com has done a very poor job covering all the leagues like ESL and goforLoL that happen like every single day. As a side note to all of this; this is how easy it is to get riot to sponsor a tournament at a local level for you, with their in game money. | ||
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Wrath 2.1
Germany880 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:43 Fusilero wrote: The only SC player with success is tazza from way back he jungles for sword now watch? My favorite lol pleayer (: | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 25 2012 21:56 Mrpopescu wrote: Dunno about the rest but Destiny had like 3000 viewers last night after a period of playing sc2 and getting max 1800.Also you have to take into consideration he is struggling at 1300 elo which is somewhat like silver in sc2.So for a silver level player to get 3000 viewers is preety good.And he is just at the beggining.If he reaches like 2000 elo combined with his entertainment skills he could have like 4000-5000 viewers..After that he can make fun of idra 1300 Elo is better than Silver league in StarCraft 2. It's probably more like high gold-low platinum, because people have a vague understanding of the game with decent mechanics, but there is not a whole lot of strategy and mechanically there are a whole ton of mistakes. Bronze-Silver league in StarCraft 2 is more like people who are not even at Level 30 yet or have been playing for a while and are in the deep depths of Elo hell. Also, the distribution in LoL across the leagues is a lot different than in StarCraft 2. | ||
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MattyClutch
United States711 Posts
On November 25 2012 19:38 zezamer wrote: SC2 fails because it's not fun. Lol/Dota is. Video games are supposed to be fun... I doubt being f2p would help SC2 that much That is your opinion, not a statement of fact. Many other people think the exact opposite about SC2/MOBAs. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 26 2012 04:37 MattyClutch wrote: That is your opinion, not a statement of fact. Many other people think the exact opposite about SC2/MOBAs. I don't have any statistical evidence supporting what I'm about to say, but I would think that playing LoL and MOBAs can be a bit less stressful than playing StarCraft, since StarCraft requires so much multitasking and can be a bit less interesting to learn after you have learned the basics. By that I mean that when you learn the basics of LoL or DotA, you learn a few champions and the different roles, then there is a plethora of champions you haven't even played yet that you can try. With StarCraft, you learn a basic build order, then you have to go find a new build order and work out all the kinks of it. Personally I enjoy both experiences, but LoL is a bit more inviting for players who aren't as dedicated to the game, I think. And to be honest, I think that Blizzard has done a pretty terrible job of improving that experience of first learning the game, which is a serious problem for a game that requires you to be somewhat dedicated to it. Not having a good, fun, interesting breakthrough stage for players going from the basics to being really invested in the game is not vital for all games, but it is vital for the sort of game people want StarCraft 2 to be. For example, Call of Duty does a pretty horrid job of getting people from liking Call of Duty into being top tier Call of Duty players who not only play the game, but think a lot about it too. That's okay though, because the audience which Call of Duty is tailored to doesn't want to be that involved with the strategy and theory aspect of a game, but rather they just want to shoot people. Riot Games--and possibly just the MOBA genre--has just done a better job than Blizzard did at getting people from understanding the basics of StarCraft into really playing StarCraft. There are a lot of reasons why I think that LoL is growing and StarCraft 2 isn't really, but I think that the number one reason I would say is that Riot Games has done a far better job than Blizzard. Blizzard doesn't promote streamers or tournaments enough. If I log onto League of Legends, Riot goes out of their way to say "Instead of playing out game, why don't you go watch better people play?" Blizzard does nothing of the sort, with an occasional message that says GSL finals are coming up. But yeah, I would say that StarCraft 2 isn't necessarily better or worse than League of Legends, but Riot Games is better than Blizzard. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:16 emc wrote: but isn't LoL bigger? it's also a team sport which is harder in other ways because there are more things that are out of your control. Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 26 2012 04:57 NoobSkills wrote: Maximum skill ceiling lowered. You can only do so much in that game, so even if you're the best you can get knocked out. What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote: What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over. You're acting as if I said the maximum skill level consists of players who are trash at other video games, so they switched to LoL. That is not what I am saying at all however, the mechanical skill level is guaranteed to be lower you are always controlling near 100% of your units at one time. Teamwork as in calling out what you see, coordinating a gank by saying attack X, and stating which items you are building, is not rocket science, though, yes there isn't teamwork in SC2. My point about the best being able to be beaten was more about time and ability to beat the best. I don't think inori would ever beat MVP at his best in a Bo7, where as LoL with a team factor could capitalize on their opponents weakness and take down the higher rated team. I am not actually a LoL fan, haven't played the game really, but I did play Dota and HON, I appreciate the skill involved with playing those games and the team aspect and constant engagement with your hero. | ||
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Mrpopescu
Romania20 Posts
On November 26 2012 04:46 dUTtrOACh wrote: I was surprised that he wouldn't take a really fresh start with Dota 2. I understand League has something of a bandwagon going on, but Dota 2 seems like a game with more potential for a pro to come onto the scene and make a name for himself. League seems just as saturated, if not more-so than SC2. Destiny is a stremer not a tournament progamer.He needs views on stream.momentarily lol is the best place for that. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:45 Mrpopescu wrote: Destiny is a stremer not a tournament progamer.He needs views on stream.momentarily lol is the best place for that. I think you missed the subject of this thread being Inori, and not Destiny. | ||
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Mrpopescu
Romania20 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:53 NoobSkills wrote: I think you missed the subject of this thread being Inori, and not Destiny. Sorry man youre right.Was coming form the destiny posts.My bad. | ||
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Brotatolol
United States1742 Posts
Best of luck to Inori with his LoL endeavors, I'm sure he will excel. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:02 The Final Boss wrote: What a stupid thing to say, even if there was a mechanical skill ceiling that was easy to reach, you still have the strategic and the teamwork skill ceilings, one of which is not even a factor in StarCraft 2. And even the best in BW--a game with a higher "skill ceiling" than SC2--lost games, sets, and big tournaments. Any post that reads "LoL is easy to play" or "LoL has such a low skill ceiling" is just a bunch of imbeciles, you sound like the extreme sections of the BW crew back when SC2 was taking over. Riot took DOTA, flattened out the learning curve and gave us LoL. I'm sorry but to those who play DOTA or somewhat follow the pro scene, LoL clearly comes off as a game which is easy to play. No one is being an imbecile, RIOT wanted their game to be "easier".. | ||
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
On November 26 2012 06:51 SupLilSon wrote: Riot took DOTA, flattened out the learning curve and gave us LoL. I'm sorry but to those who play DOTA or somewhat follow the pro scene, LoL clearly comes off as a game which is easy to play. No one is being an imbecile, RIOT wanted their game to be "easier".. Yeh even LoL Pros said that its skill ceilling isnt that high. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 26 2012 05:14 NoobSkills wrote: You're acting as if I said the maximum skill level consists of players who are trash at other video games, so they switched to LoL. That is not what I am saying at all however, the mechanical skill level is guaranteed to be lower you are always controlling near 100% of your units at one time. Teamwork as in calling out what you see, coordinating a gank by saying attack X, and stating which items you are building, is not rocket science, though, yes there isn't teamwork in SC2. My point about the best being able to be beaten was more about time and ability to beat the best. I don't think inori would ever beat MVP at his best in a Bo7, where as LoL with a team factor could capitalize on their opponents weakness and take down the higher rated team. I am not actually a LoL fan, haven't played the game really, but I did play Dota and HON, I appreciate the skill involved with playing those games and the team aspect and constant engagement with your hero. What I am acting like is a rational human-being trying to reason with an irrational person. People who talk about skill ceilings are so ridiculous, because they are a theoretical thing that there is no real way of measuring, and completely impractical that anyone will ever reach. Look at Brood War, Boxer is a bonjwa, but he never hit the skill ceiling, because after him came Nada, and after Nada along came iloveoov and after oov came sAviOr and after Ma Bonjwa everybody's favorite Flash, and even Flash was never unbeatable, and when you talk about StarCraft 2, I'm not even sure that Mvp is quite at the level of dominance that those players were at, so he hasn't hit the skill ceiling either. And if you knew anything about League of Legends, it's that people are getting better and better, exploring the game in new ways and learning new champions, and they haven't hit the skill ceiling, and no one ever will. Skill ceiling debate is so pointless because it's all theoretical, and it's even more pointless when you are comparing games that are based around different skills. There is a lot more to teamwork than what you said, and the fact that you have never really played the game should reflect the comments you make about it; don't make generic comments about a game you don't even play. For example, if you knew anything about LoL you would know that the World Champions, Taipei Assassins communicate and act as a unit incredibly well. It's more than just screaming out which champion to target and all focusing that person--Stanley, TPA's top is not the best mechanically, but if you watch him, he knows precisely when to stay in lane and farm/push and when to leave to prep for a team fight. It's a mixture of both game sense and teamwork, and it's a large part in why they beat M5 in the semifinals and went on to win the tournament. It's a bit specific, but if you play top lane like it's an island, and never leave--which is something that even high level LoL pros do--then you will get beat overall by top laners like Stanley. But what you are saying, about Inori never beating Mvp at his best in a Bo7 is probably true--you provided a situation in which the absolute best player playing his best in a long match. If you provided the same circumstances for League of Legends, then that might be true. Granted, the pro scene is still developing as opposed to StarCraft 2, so there is no defined "Mvp," but part of that is the newly emerging Korean and Chinese scenes, which for a while were secluded from EU and NA. But if you ignore Korea and China, M5 is sort of like the Mvp, and they were for a while. There were teams that could beat them, but if they are playing their absolute best in a tournament Bo5 setting, it is highly unlikely. M5 is actually even more like Mvp because they have that "Game Genie" aspect to them, where they know things and whip out stuff that nobody else has ever even thought about, and while other teams start to use those strategies, they're moving on to the new thing. But right now it's hard to pinpoint a team that is the absolute best just because there is not enough data. As we have more interactions between the Asian and Western scenes we'll have a better idea of who is the "Mvp" of LoL. And all this is from somebody who has been following e-Sports for a long time, played StarCraft 2 a lot and at a decent level (mid Masters for a while), and is now playing League of Legends trying to get to a higher level. Quit using phrases like "skill ceiling" and stuff that means next to nothing when applied to a real life situation; look at Destiny, he took games and even series off of top level Koreans like Bomber in StarCraft 2 (the far more difficult game, as you say), but he can't even get into Gold League Elo in League of Legends. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On November 26 2012 07:29 D4V3Z02 wrote: You do realize when you use the term skill ceiling in relation to what you have quoted you are 100% incorrect in it's definition. What you are looking for is skill floor as that has to do with making it easier to enter the game. Yeh even LoL Pros said that its skill ceilling isnt that high. Skill ceiling on the other hand has gotten sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo misused on this forum in regards with the LoL/Dota comparison. It's not appropriate to really talk about skill ceiling with games like LoL/Dota,it would fit more with something akin to Chess, Checkers, or Tic-tac-toe. The bottom line here is NO ONE has ever hit a skill ceiling in "e-sports" titles, they have only ever approached them. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 26 2012 07:46 DonKey_ wrote: You do realize when you use the term skill ceiling in relation to what you have quoted you is 100% incorrect in it's definition. What you are looking for is skill floor as that has to do with making it easier to enter the game. Skill ceiling on the other hand, which btw has gotten sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo misused on this forum in regards with the LoL/Dota comparison. It's not appropriate to really talk about skill ceiling with games like LoL/Dota,it would fit more with something akin to Chess, Checkers, or Tic-tac-toe. The bottom line here is NO ONE has ever hit a skill ceiling in "e-sports" titles, they have only ever approached them. This is what I'm trying to say in a more concise manner; stop using the term skill ceiling because it's practically meaningless. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On November 26 2012 07:49 The Final Boss wrote: This is what I'm trying to say in a more concise manner; stop using the term skill ceiling because it's practically meaningless. I don't think you fully understood what you were responding to. Noobskills was simply saying that because DOTA/LOL are team games, a single player's mechanics are going to have an overall lower direct impact on the games outcome compared to a 1v1 scenario like SC. Teamwork is not a skill, there is no mechanical component to team work that can be quantified. And while I agree that people throw around the term skill ceiling a bit too casually, it has not always misused in this thread. Yea, the skill ceiling is only theoretical but that does not mean it is not meaningful. There are numerous reasons to hypothesize that LoL's overall skill ceiling is much lower than DOTA... removal of denies, fog spots in LoL vs trees in DOTA, night/day mechanic in DOTA, item and hero differentiation, etc. Sure, it's the internet, people can always say "nuh uh" and deny but if you follow a logical thought process, LoL has a lower skill ceiling than DOTA. Edit: And the part about Destiny being decent at SC2 and terrible at LoL is contradictory to the rest of your post. You yourself assert that the 2 games require different skill sets... so you can't really correlate Destiny's transition to anything outside of his ability to learn new skills. European Football is more demanding motor mechanically and motor skill-wise than American Football, I don't think anyone would disagree. Yet it would be silly to think that Messi could join the NFL and have any impact whatsoever... or almost any other Football player for that matter. Why? The majority of their skills have no basis in the much simpler game of American Football... Such is the relationship between DOTA/LoL | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
The glorification of basic tasks being difficult to do is just so strange. What the hell, my game is better because instead of practicing running you first have to learn to kangaroo hop? Er, yes sure. Staying interesting at a high level is important, that is a damn sure thing, but interesting at a high level = difficult to play - especially in the sense SC2's macro crutches were done, in the way Brood War is, in the way many fighting games are - is not even close to true. I'd much rather a game be simple to learn so I can hook my friends into the awesomeness! See, for example, Smash. Much less infuriating to learn than most modern fighters, yet even Brawl (which for a fact has a lower mechanical skill ceiling than Melee, which has a very high one) stays interesting in high level play. @SupLiiSon Teamwork is not a skill? That statement is absurd. Also, added complexity in the form of more mechanics and rules does not automatically equate to a higher skill ceiling, far from it. Those kinds of things are all too often responsible for annoying gimmickry that ruins a game. Or they're stuff that's just plain irritating to newcomers and irrelevant to high level people once learned. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On November 26 2012 08:33 Coffee Zombie wrote: QFT @ Final Boss & Donkey. The glorification of basic tasks being difficult to do is just so strange. What the hell, my game is better because instead of practicing running you first have to learn to kangaroo hop? Er, yes sure. Staying interesting at a high level is important, that is a damn sure thing, but interesting at a high level = difficult to play - especially in the sense SC2's macro crutches were done, in the way Brood War is, in the way many fighting games are - is not even close to true. I'd much rather a game be simple to learn so I can hook my friends into the awesomeness! See, for example, Smash. Much less infuriating to learn than most modern fighters, yet even Brawl (which for a fact has a lower mechanical skill ceiling than Melee, which has a very high one) stays interesting in high level play. @SupLiiSon Teamwork is not a skill? That statement is absurd. Also, added complexity in the form of more mechanics and rules does not automatically equate to a higher skill ceiling, far from it. Those kinds of things are all too often responsible for annoying gimmickry that ruins a game. Or they're stuff that's just plain irritating to newcomers and irrelevant to high level people once learned. I mean teamwork is not a skill in relation to one person but is moreso a combination of factors, including all the team members personalities, backgrounds, preferred playstyles, etc. Yea, teamwork can be strengthened by practicing together but there are tons of extraneous factors that contribute to team synergy. And are you really going to call denying and juking through trees gimmicks that ruin games? Please watch a game of professional DOTA. Please. To you they are irritating, to me they are fascinating. And you are dead wrong if you think stuff like this is irrelevant at high level play. Edit: I don't know much about the fighter scene but wasnt SSBM considered much better competitively than SSBB? | ||
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
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Kyokushin
24 Posts
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On November 26 2012 08:15 SupLilSon wrote: I don't think you fully understood what you were responding to. Noobskills was simply saying that because DOTA/LOL are team games, a single player's mechanics are going to have an overall lower direct impact on the games outcome compared to a 1v1 scenario like SC. Teamwork is not a skill, there is no mechanical component to team work that can be quantified. And while I agree that people throw around the term skill ceiling a bit too casually, it has not always misused in this thread. Yea, the skill ceiling is only theoretical but that does not mean it is not meaningful. There are numerous reasons to hypothesize that LoL's overall skill ceiling is much lower than DOTA... removal of denies, fog spots in LoL vs trees in DOTA, night/day mechanic in DOTA, item and hero differentiation, etc. Sure, it's the internet, people can always say "nuh uh" and deny but if you follow a logical thought process, LoL has a lower skill ceiling than DOTA. Edit: And the part about Destiny being decent at SC2 and terrible at LoL is contradictory to the rest of your post. You yourself assert that the 2 games require different skill sets... so you can't really correlate Destiny's transition to anything outside of his ability to learn new skills. European Football is more demanding motor mechanically and motor skill-wise than American Football, I don't think anyone would disagree. Yet it would be silly to think that Messi could join the NFL and have any impact whatsoever... or almost any other Football player for that matter. Why? The majority of their skills have no basis in the much simpler game of American Football... Such is the relationship between DOTA/LoL I am just very confused why we discuss skill ceiling between games when it is something that is not going to be achieved; especially for team games where the amount of variables that determine who will win and lose are no longer quantifiable due to many existing. I'm not debating that Dota 2 or LoL has a higher skill ceiling because that argument is irrelevant. In fact the only way I could ever see it realistically being achieved is through AI. Remember to hit the skill ceiling you would need to make every possible correct decision for a game. To say a human can accomplish this in a game where just simple positioning of a "game piece" (hero/champ/unit) on the map changes in less than a second, multiple times for everyone playing is foolish. On another note why is it that people conclude that higher skill ceiling = more competitive game. The key thing to remember here is that complication of a process doesn't make it more competitive. What makes a game more competitive is increasing the player base, because a competitive game in itself is just one in which many play it. To conclude people have far too many misconceptions of what a game with high skill ceiling is. Always speaking as though it's number one thing all games should be. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On November 26 2012 08:55 Kyokushin wrote: I only read the first page of the comments in this thread but for me it's quite logical. Both games are probably just as hard to become a successful pro player in (at least in Korea) but I can imagine it being way more fun to practice a game like LoL than SC2. In LoL you can have a lot of fun with your teammates and they can motivate you etc, whereas in SC2 everything is on you. Maybe that's just me, but I'd much rather be a professional in a team game than in a 1v1 game. I dunno majority of feelings but I know I would ratehr 1v1 then a team game. The reason being is I hate having to rely on teamates in competitive games. In 1v1 at least when you lose it's your fault, not your friends, not your teamates, just yours. In games like LoL/Dota/etc I imagine lots of rage comes from players raging at their allies being shit or whatever. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 26 2012 08:40 Kasaraki wrote: Why does this discussion always arise when LoL is mentioned? :/ Because this forum has aligned itself with two games playing catchup. SC2 and DotA2 are behind LoL in a lot of areas and some people don't like it. I tried to watch the last DotA2 tournament, but after playing LoL a bit I just found myself questioning DotA2 design decisions. From a spectator point of view it suffers from a lot of the same problems SC2 suffers from. To be honest I don't know why the DotA2 people bother with the LoL threads. SC2 is in another genre but the DotA2 argument is basically "I know our game is almost exactly the same, and is much less popular, but it's objectively better, please play it..." | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 26 2012 09:17 blade55555 wrote: I dunno majority of feelings but I know I would ratehr 1v1 then a team game. The reason being is I hate having to rely on teamates in competitive games. In 1v1 at least when you lose it's your fault, not your friends, not your teamates, just yours. In games like LoL/Dota/etc I imagine lots of rage comes from players raging at their allies being shit or whatever. Well you would hope that at a pro level, nobody has shit teammates. And everyone is invested in the success of their teammates, so they do whatever they can to help everyone improve. I think in general people find team competition a lot more compelling than individual competition. Outside of the olympics you rarely see major attention directed at a sport where one person plays against one person. The only counterexample I can think of is tennis, where lots of people know a couple of names from the news but few of them actually watch. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
On November 26 2012 08:15 SupLilSon wrote: I don't think you fully understood what you were responding to. Noobskills was simply saying that because DOTA/LOL are team games, a single player's mechanics are going to have an overall lower direct impact on the games outcome compared to a 1v1 scenario like SC. Teamwork is not a skill, there is no mechanical component to team work that can be quantified. And while I agree that people throw around the term skill ceiling a bit too casually, it has not always misused in this thread. Yea, the skill ceiling is only theoretical but that does not mean it is not meaningful. There are numerous reasons to hypothesize that LoL's overall skill ceiling is much lower than DOTA... removal of denies, fog spots in LoL vs trees in DOTA, night/day mechanic in DOTA, item and hero differentiation, etc. Sure, it's the internet, people can always say "nuh uh" and deny but if you follow a logical thought process, LoL has a lower skill ceiling than DOTA. Edit: And the part about Destiny being decent at SC2 and terrible at LoL is contradictory to the rest of your post. You yourself assert that the 2 games require different skill sets... so you can't really correlate Destiny's transition to anything outside of his ability to learn new skills. European Football is more demanding motor mechanically and motor skill-wise than American Football, I don't think anyone would disagree. Yet it would be silly to think that Messi could join the NFL and have any impact whatsoever... or almost any other Football player for that matter. Why? The majority of their skills have no basis in the much simpler game of American Football... Such is the relationship between DOTA/LoL First off your comparison of European and American football is HILARIOUS, you clearly have no idea of how difficult American football is, how trying it is on the human body, and how deep the strategy of the game goes. I'm not going to rip on soccer because it's a sport that I played in high school and enjoy to play and watch, but calling American football a "much simpler game" is an incredibly stupid thing to say. If you're going to post, try not to take uninformed shots at something you have absolutely no idea about, it makes you look retarded. Secondly, I'm not trying to say that LoL is somehow harder or more difficult to play, I do not believe that. However, it requires different skills and to talk about the "skill ceiling" of it or any other game like StarCraft is ridiculous. As you have said, League requires a different set of skills, because it is not just based around a single person. Your comparison of European and American football is so blatantly retarded that I'm going to leave it behind, and here's a better comparison using sports: it would be like taking a UFC fighter or boxer and expecting them to transition perfectly into American football or rugby. In theory they might have the physical body to do so, but they don't have the correct experience of working in a team setting and the specifics of those sports to transition perfectly. In a complete oversimplification of the sport, two boxers just have to try to knock each other out, going after each others bodies is their victory condition; in football a lineman has to block for the ball carrier. Similarly, in StarCraft I'm just trying to beat my single opponent to death and he's trying to beat me to death; but in League I might be trying to keep an Olaf from getting to my AD Carry, while that Olaf's goal is to murder my ADC. In each, different people have different goals, in StarCraft/boxing you share a similar goal and in League the individual members of each team have different goals. And the comparison of DotA and LoL is a great example as far as why skill ceilings bare so little meaning. There are more things you have to do in DotA than there are in LoL. However, because there are less things to do in LoL, that means that there is more room to focus on and practice the nuances of League of Legends, which is fine because no matter how good you get at last hitting in League, you will never hit the ceiling, because you can improve upon other things in lane. It makes no sense to talk about skill ceilings in a game like StarCraft 2 or League because they are never going to be reached. TL;DR don't talk about games--whether it's LoL or football--that you don't know anything about, skill ceilings are borderline meaningless, stop bashing League of Legends as some "no-skill- game," and I'm done posting in this thread, thank you very much and have a nice night. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
It's true that it's unlikely a 'perfect game' will be played in any game of sufficient complexity. However, your argument that because there is less to do it allows you to focus on perfecting the few things you can do, while true, IS a lower skill ceiling. Skills are all about mastering small tasks in such a way that they become second nature, allowing you to focus on the next set of higher order tasks. The more layers of these tasks there are, the more areas you have to differentiate yourself from others. If BW had SC2 macro, the skill ceiling WOULD be lowered. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be things to focus on and perfect. It certainly would take less time to reach the level of perfection that we got towards the end of BW, though. I'm not saying that LoL has an insufficient skill ceiling to be a competitive game, because I think it does. But the idea of scrapping the whole notion of a skill ceiling when discussing games is wrongheaded. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On November 26 2012 09:36 The Final Boss wrote: And the comparison of DotA and LoL is a great example as far as why skill ceilings bare so little meaning. There are more things you have to do in DotA than there are in LoL. However, because there are less things to do in LoL, that means that there is more room to focus on and practice the nuances of League of Legends, which is fine because no matter how good you get at last hitting in League, you will never hit the ceiling, because you can improve upon other things in lane. It makes no sense to talk about skill ceilings in a game like StarCraft 2 or League because they are never going to be reached. This means that the game will be 'figured out' more quickly. The more tasks required to master, the greater 'spread' of talent in the scene. In BW, there were players known for their macro, players known for their micro, players known for specific strategies and talents. If there was no macro component, sure people could focus on micro and strategy and there would still be learning to do, but the skill ceiling would still be lowered. The game would reach the 'end state' much more quickly as people perfect a fewer number of tasks. Plus there is an upper bound on human ability in any game, so at some point the ways in which you can differentiate yourself becomes too miniscule to really be achieved. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On November 26 2012 09:17 blade55555 wrote: The reason being is I hate having to rely on teamates in competitive games. In 1v1 at least when you lose it's your fault, not your friends, not your teamates, just yours. In games like LoL/Dota/etc I imagine lots of rage comes from players raging at their allies being shit or whatever. Being able to blame others is a big reason these games are big in the first place (being somewhat social is another - one reason LoL is super huge in Korea is because Riot encourages people to play in net cafes in person with others. Meeting people every week for games and banter is one of the main reasons I've played Magic for years on end). Every one of us has in his head a fiction about himself as a player. I know I am good at Magic, was decent in casual level Smash, suck at SF4, and so on. Many people think they are above average due to the Dunning-Krueger effect. In fighting games or Starcraft, you can get brutally crushed. The fiction is quickly forced to align with reality, and your ego has to take the hit. In Dotalikes it is not. You can always blame your teammates for supposed deficiencies - even lurid ones like the support player on the bottom lane not warding the top jungle for you so it's his fault you were blind and got ganked. So even if you are the most abjectly sucktastic piece of filth on Earth you can think you're a pro. This inherent phenomenon of blaming others is one of the key reasons the Dotalike communities can be so hideously caustic. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On November 26 2012 08:40 SupLilSon wrote: I don't know much about the fighter scene but wasnt SSBM considered much better competitively than SSBB? That depends entirely on the person. Many like it because it has many glitches to abuse that up the technical requirements for competitive play a lot and do the old "dumbing game down for drooling retards" thing for Brawl where they were removed. Though for me overall Melee feels better. Never bothered to learn any of those advanced shenanigans but it's just a faster, snappier game. Brawl is okay, but a bit more floaty. Don't mind either one at any rate. Apart from tripping. Sakurai deserves a good old punch in the face for that. (Basically, all characters randomly trip up. This was explicitly done to discourage competition. When far better ways to add newbie-helping random factor exist - say insanely good critical hits and stuff. At least those reward you for succeeding and the victim for making a mistake instead of just punishing everyone for playing the damn game) | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On November 26 2012 07:37 The Final Boss wrote: What I am acting like is a rational human-being trying to reason with an irrational person. People who talk about skill ceilings are so ridiculous, because they are a theoretical thing that there is no real way of measuring, and completely impractical that anyone will ever reach. Look at Brood War, Boxer is a bonjwa, but he never hit the skill ceiling, because after him came Nada, and after Nada along came iloveoov and after oov came sAviOr and after Ma Bonjwa everybody's favorite Flash, and even Flash was never unbeatable, and when you talk about StarCraft 2, I'm not even sure that Mvp is quite at the level of dominance that those players were at, so he hasn't hit the skill ceiling either. And if you knew anything about League of Legends, it's that people are getting better and better, exploring the game in new ways and learning new champions, and they haven't hit the skill ceiling, and no one ever will. Skill ceiling debate is so pointless because it's all theoretical, and it's even more pointless when you are comparing games that are based around different skills. There is a lot more to teamwork than what you said, and the fact that you have never really played the game should reflect the comments you make about it; don't make generic comments about a game you don't even play. For example, if you knew anything about LoL you would know that the World Champions, Taipei Assassins communicate and act as a unit incredibly well. It's more than just screaming out which champion to target and all focusing that person--Stanley, TPA's top is not the best mechanically, but if you watch him, he knows precisely when to stay in lane and farm/push and when to leave to prep for a team fight. It's a mixture of both game sense and teamwork, and it's a large part in why they beat M5 in the semifinals and went on to win the tournament. It's a bit specific, but if you play top lane like it's an island, and never leave--which is something that even high level LoL pros do--then you will get beat overall by top laners like Stanley. But what you are saying, about Inori never beating Mvp at his best in a Bo7 is probably true--you provided a situation in which the absolute best player playing his best in a long match. If you provided the same circumstances for League of Legends, then that might be true. Granted, the pro scene is still developing as opposed to StarCraft 2, so there is no defined "Mvp," but part of that is the newly emerging Korean and Chinese scenes, which for a while were secluded from EU and NA. But if you ignore Korea and China, M5 is sort of like the Mvp, and they were for a while. There were teams that could beat them, but if they are playing their absolute best in a tournament Bo5 setting, it is highly unlikely. M5 is actually even more like Mvp because they have that "Game Genie" aspect to them, where they know things and whip out stuff that nobody else has ever even thought about, and while other teams start to use those strategies, they're moving on to the new thing. But right now it's hard to pinpoint a team that is the absolute best just because there is not enough data. As we have more interactions between the Asian and Western scenes we'll have a better idea of who is the "Mvp" of LoL. And all this is from somebody who has been following e-Sports for a long time, played StarCraft 2 a lot and at a decent level (mid Masters for a while), and is now playing League of Legends trying to get to a higher level. Quit using phrases like "skill ceiling" and stuff that means next to nothing when applied to a real life situation; look at Destiny, he took games and even series off of top level Koreans like Bomber in StarCraft 2 (the far more difficult game, as you say), but he can't even get into Gold League Elo in League of Legends. In general, yes, people who talk about skill ceiling are making a mute point. The issue is that with any MOBA game you are always controlling your one champion 100% of what is able to be controlled is being controlled, then you have abilities and item use. Sure, you will never be perfect, but you can be damn close to perfect with your hero use. In SC2 you will never be close to controlling all you have to near perfection. You then talk about the changing of strategies, and that has nothing to do with a skill ceiling. Controlling a late game colossi army or controlling a late game BL, infestor, corrupter army require similar skill, and even though they're a different strategy, the skill ceiling in each of them has nothing to do with difference in strategy, but with how much you need to do with it. I did watch the DHW btw. And I did play MOBA games. And I do watch LoL, just don't have the time to play it. All of which you ignored from my post, or didn't comprehend. You still seem like you're on the back foot defending LoL and the skill involved with it. I actually love HoN, know it's skill ceiling is 10% of Starcraft 2's skill ceiling, and still like to watch it. My post simply stated that Inori will have more of a chance of doing something in LoL than SC2 and that is true. Even still he probably won't be worth shit in that game either. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On November 26 2012 09:52 zefreak wrote: Skill ceilings are very real and you guys are performing some mental gymnastics in order to write them off. It's true that it's unlikely a 'perfect game' will be played in any game of sufficient complexity. However, your argument that because there is less to do it allows you to focus on perfecting the few things you can do, while true, IS a lower skill ceiling. Skills are all about mastering small tasks in such a way that they become second nature, allowing you to focus on the next set of higher order tasks. The more layers of these tasks there are, the more areas you have to differentiate yourself from others. If BW had SC2 macro, the skill ceiling WOULD be lowered. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be things to focus on and perfect. It certainly would take less time to reach the level of perfection that we got towards the end of BW, though. I'm not saying that LoL has an insufficient skill ceiling to be a competitive game, because I think it does. But the idea of scrapping the whole notion of a skill ceiling when discussing games is wrongheaded. Wrong-headed? What are you talking about? If skill-ceiling for an "e-sports" game will not ever be proved, then there is no reason to be discussing it. What does it bring to the table? The term itself is being used incorrectly in practically 85% of the posts that contain it. edit: I for damn sure am not arguing that as a concept skill ceiling does not exist. The thing is you have ZERO way to measure it and ZERO way to reach it. With regard to all the games classified as "e-sports". Skill ceiling is being used to somehow justify that someones game is objectively better because maybe just maybe 1000 years down the line when we have scientifically altered ourselves to exceed our current capabilities as humans we will run in to a situation where the game is "figured out". It's a useless stat not worth talking about that is being used as a scapegoat argument so elitists can say their more complex game is better to play than others. This is really what frustrates me the most. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On November 26 2012 09:36 The Final Boss wrote: First off your comparison of European and American football is HILARIOUS, you clearly have no idea of how difficult American football is, how trying it is on the human body, and how deep the strategy of the game goes. I'm not going to rip on soccer because it's a sport that I played in high school and enjoy to play and watch, but calling American football a "much simpler game" is an incredibly stupid thing to say. If you're going to post, try not to take uninformed shots at something you have absolutely no idea about, it makes you look retarded. Secondly, I'm not trying to say that LoL is somehow harder or more difficult to play, I do not believe that. However, it requires different skills and to talk about the "skill ceiling" of it or any other game like StarCraft is ridiculous. As you have said, League requires a different set of skills, because it is not just based around a single person. Your comparison of European and American football is so blatantly retarded that I'm going to leave it behind, and here's a better comparison using sports: it would be like taking a UFC fighter or boxer and expecting them to transition perfectly into American football or rugby. In theory they might have the physical body to do so, but they don't have the correct experience of working in a team setting and the specifics of those sports to transition perfectly. In a complete oversimplification of the sport, two boxers just have to try to knock each other out, going after each others bodies is their victory condition; in football a lineman has to block for the ball carrier. Similarly, in StarCraft I'm just trying to beat my single opponent to death and he's trying to beat me to death; but in League I might be trying to keep an Olaf from getting to my AD Carry, while that Olaf's goal is to murder my ADC. In each, different people have different goals, in StarCraft/boxing you share a similar goal and in League the individual members of each team have different goals. And the comparison of DotA and LoL is a great example as far as why skill ceilings bare so little meaning. There are more things you have to do in DotA than there are in LoL. However, because there are less things to do in LoL, that means that there is more room to focus on and practice the nuances of League of Legends, which is fine because no matter how good you get at last hitting in League, you will never hit the ceiling, because you can improve upon other things in lane. It makes no sense to talk about skill ceilings in a game like StarCraft 2 or League because they are never going to be reached. TL;DR don't talk about games--whether it's LoL or football--that you don't know anything about, skill ceilings are borderline meaningless, stop bashing League of Legends as some "no-skill- game," and I'm done posting in this thread, thank you very much and have a nice night. ...? You don't have to resort to calling people retarded because you get frustrated... European Football is more demanding in areas of technical skill and motor skill than American Football, that's a fact, not a question. But I'm not going to get into that because it'd lead down a completely unrelated tangent on neuromuscular physiology and the workings of fine motor skills vs. gross motor skills. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:23 SupLilSon wrote: ...? You don't have to resort to calling people retarded because you get frustrated... European Football is more demanding in areas of technical skill and motor skill than American Football, that's a fact, not a question. But I'm not going to get into that because it'd lead down a completely unrelated tangent on neuromuscular physiology and the workings of fine motor skills vs. gross motor skills. As somebody who has played both in high school, you couldn't be more wrong. They require different functions and rely on different skill sets, but to say that soccer requires more skill than american football is just wrong. /tangent. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:17 DonKey_ wrote: Wrong-headed? What are you talking about? If skill-ceiling for an "e-sports" game will not ever be proved, then there is no reason to be discussing it. What does it bring to the table? The term itself is being used incorrectly in practically 85% of the posts that contain it. edit: I for damn sure am not arguing that as a concept skill ceiling does not exist. The thing is you have ZERO way to measure it and ZERO way to reach it. Skill ceiling is being used to somehow justify that someones game is objectively better because maybe just maybe 1000 years down the line when we have scientifically altered ourselves to exceed our current capabilities as humans we will run in to a situation where the game is "figured out". It's a useless stat not worth talking about that is being used as a scapegoat argument so elitists can say their more complex game is better to play than others. I like this post and it made me remember something. I watched someone play 2 HON characters at one time for a full game using 2 keyboards, but sharing control (he won all 3 games doing this). In SC2 nobody could do shit playing 2 games at one time unless chessing in both games. That is decent evidence that one game does require you to do more with your time than the other and that the skill ceiling is higher. You could argue all you wanted for days that LoL is harder, but I'm pretty sure someone could also play 2 characters on LoL and win at a high raiting. Now, using skill ceiling to put down another game is shitty because there is talent in all games. Even speed runners are doing something better than the rest when they hold world records. There is a difference of level of skill from the bottom to the top which makes all game's professional levels awesome to watch, or else Esports wouldn't be around. But I will get off of this topic for now I guess because I'm and "elitist" who is trying to "justify my game is better." On November 26 2012 10:23 SupLilSon wrote: ...? You don't have to resort to calling people retarded because you get frustrated... European Football is more demanding in areas of technical skill and motor skill than American Football, that's a fact, not a question. But I'm not going to get into that because it'd lead down a completely unrelated tangent on neuromuscular physiology and the workings of fine motor skills vs. gross motor skills. He is just one of those diehards who wants to defend LoL even when it doesn't need defending. Nobody even said it was a bad game, just that it required less skill to master. I wouldn't pay him too much attention. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:17 DonKey_ wrote: Wrong-headed? What are you talking about? If skill-ceiling for an "e-sports" game will not ever be proved, then there is no reason to be discussing it. What does it bring to the table? The term itself is being used incorrectly in practically 85% of the posts that contain it. edit: I for damn sure am not arguing that as a concept skill ceiling does not exist. The thing is you have ZERO way to measure it and ZERO way to reach it. With regard to all the games classified as "e-sports". Skill ceiling is being used to somehow justify that someones game is objectively better because maybe just maybe 1000 years down the line when we have scientifically altered ourselves to exceed our current capabilities as humans we will run in to a situation where the game is "figured out". It's a useless stat not worth talking about that is being used as a scapegoat argument so elitists can say their more complex game is better to play than others. This is really what frustrates me the most. It's not something that is supposed to be 'measured'. This doesn't make it useless. You can make comparative, qualitative judgements. This is common in fields like economics where ordinal numbers are often required. And while a ceiling will never be 'reached' in the sense on playing a perfect game, it still matters. Instead of thinking in terms of a ceiling, think in terms of 'depth'. A simple game will still have room for human error, and so it's 'skill ceiling' will never be absolutely reached. But a more complex game, while also not reaching its skill ceiling, will allow for error and variation among many more domains. Rock Paper Scissors cannot be perfectly played by humans because we are not equipped to deal with perfectly randomized mixed strategies. This doesn't mean you can say "Rock Paper Scissors can never be perfected so its just as competitive as Chess or Go, the skill ceiling will never be reached either way" Just an extreme example, not actually trying to compare LoL to rock paper scissors. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:29 Whatson wrote: As somebody who has played both in high school, you couldn't be more wrong. They require different functions and rely on different skill sets, but to say that soccer requires more skill than american football is just wrong. /tangent. Aside from the quarterback position, the general skills involved in American Football are running, catching and jumping. These are all skills that any developmentally normal human being should be able to perform. The simple act of dribbling in European Football requires more technical skill than any movement in American Football. I really don't think I'm wrong. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:31 NoobSkills wrote: I like this post and it made me remember something. I watched someone play 2 HON characters at one time for a full game using 2 keyboards, but sharing control (he won all 3 games doing this). In SC2 nobody could do shit playing 2 games at one time unless chessing in both games. That is decent evidence that one game does require you to do more with your time than the other and that the skill ceiling is higher. You could argue all you wanted for days that LoL is harder, but I'm pretty sure someone could also play 2 characters on LoL and win at a high raiting. Now, using skill ceiling to put down another game is shitty because there is talent in all games. Even speed runners are doing something better than the rest when they hold world records. There is a difference of level of skill from the bottom to the top which makes all game's professional levels awesome to watch, or else Esports wouldn't be around. But I will get off of this topic for now I guess because I'm and "elitist" who is trying to "justify my game is better." He is just one of those diehards who wants to defend LoL even when it doesn't need defending. Nobody even said it was a bad game, just that it required less skill to master. I wouldn't pay him too much attention. Let me get this straight "I watched someone play 2 HON characters at one time for a full game using 2 keyboards, but sharing control (he won all 3 games doing this). In SC2 nobody could do shit playing 2 games at one time unless chessing in both games." you are using this as evidence that there could be a metric for skill ceiling? Aside from the fact that you don't cite this and it is an anecdote, how does that have any relevant information that a metric could exist for skill ceiling. I did not call you an elitist, unless you are identifying yourself as one who fits that criteria of arguing a more complex game is a better one. Your entire post is just a series of assumptions without evidence. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:38 zefreak wrote: It's not something that is supposed to be 'measured'. This doesn't make it useless. You can make comparative, qualitative judgements. This is common in fields like economics where ordinal numbers are often required. And while a ceiling will never be 'reached' in the sense on playing a perfect game, it still matters. Instead of thinking in terms of a ceiling, think in terms of 'depth'. A simple game will still have room for human error, and so it's 'skill ceiling' will never be absolutely reached. But a more complex game, while also not reaching its skill ceiling, will allow for error and variation among many more domains. Rock Paper Scissors cannot be perfectly played by humans because we are not equipped to deal with perfectly randomized mixed strategies. This doesn't mean you can say "Rock Paper Scissors can never be perfected so its just as competitive as Chess or Go, the skill ceiling will never be reached either way" Just an extreme example, not actually trying to compare LoL to rock paper scissors. I don't see the relevance of this, is this something many people find important in a game? You can always make a game one order of degree more difficult by adding another set of procedures to it, sure. How does that make it better as a game though and how does skill ceiling have any relevance at all? There is no "strategy" to playing a single game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, you just make a decision. Skill is not a factor in that. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:39 SupLilSon wrote: Aside from the quarterback position, the general skills involved in American Football are running, catching and jumping. These are all skills that any developmentally normal human being should be able to perform. The simple act of dribbling in European Football requires more technical skill than any movement in American Football. I really don't think I'm wrong. Except that not every developmentally normal human being can play football at a high level, the same way that a developmentally normal human being cannot play soccer at a high level. I wonder why. And I suppose unfortunately, a quarterback is also part of football, no? You cannot possibly ask for a soccer play to throw a perfect spiral 70 yards to a cutting receiver the same way you cannot possibly ask for a football player to make a pass across the field to a teammate. Very well, I see that I cannot possibly hope to change your opinion. Keep on believing that then. /tangent. Have a nice day. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:48 Whatson wrote: Except that not every developmentally normal human being can play football at a high level, the same way that a developmentally normal human being cannot play soccer at a high level. I wonder why. Very well, I see that I cannot possibly hope to change your opinion. Keep on believing that then. /tangent. lol... it's science, not really an opinion. High level american football revolves heavily around limiting factors such as an individual's sheer muscle mass, body weight and size (height, width) but that is independent of motor skill, which is what I'm talking about. But w/e this is ridiculously off topic. GL inori maybe you will change my view on LoL | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:42 DonKey_ wrote: Let me get this straight "I watched someone play 2 HON characters at one time for a full game using 2 keyboards, but sharing control (he won all 3 games doing this). In SC2 nobody could do shit playing 2 games at one time unless chessing in both games." you are using this as evidence that there could be a metric for skill ceiling? Aside from the fact that you don't cite this and it is an anecdote, how does that have any relevant information that a metric could exist for skill ceiling. I did not call you an elitist, unless you are identifying yourself as one who fits that criteria of arguing a more complex game is a better one. Your entire post is just a series of assumptions without evidence. I'm saying it could be used as evidence, not as numerical evidence that dictates exactly how much you are able to do in one game vs another one. If one can play 2 games at one time in one game and not in another, doesn't that mean at least in some sense that you have more to do in the game that you couldn't play 2 of does it not? And doing more, isn't that a measurement in some fashion? There is no tangible way to numerically measure doing more though. Can' it be proven? No. Does it make sense? Yes. The same way that LoL seemingly takes more skill than COD. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:51 NoobSkills wrote: I'm saying it could be used as evidence, not as numerical evidence that dictates exactly how much you are able to do in one game vs another one. If one can play 2 games at one time in one game and not in another, doesn't that mean at least in some sense that you have more to do in the game that you couldn't play 2 of does it not? And doing more, isn't that a measurement in some fashion? There is no tangible way to numerically measure doing more though. Can' it be proven? No. Does it make sense? Yes. The same way that LoL seemingly takes more skill than COD. This is still all subjective though, because there is not a metric that is applied. More importantly though how is it relevant to anyone? | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:46 DonKey_ wrote: I don't see the relevance of this, is this something many people find important in a game? You can always make a game one order of degree more difficult by adding another set of procedures to it, sure. How does that make it better as a game though and how does skill ceiling have any relevance at all? There is no "strategy" to playing a single game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, you just make a decision. Skill is not a factor in that. Yes there is a strategy for Rock Paper Scissors, although I see you are covering your ass by saying 'a single game'. Anyways, assuming you aren't being disingenuous and trying to "catch" me with a technicality, the optimal play is a mixed strategy of rock 1/3rd of the time, paper 1/3rd and scissors 1/3rd. Good luck trying to do that in a truely random way over a large sample size. Skill ceiling - out of reach of human participants, still not as hard as Chess or Go. | ||
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aviator116
United States820 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:51 SupLilSon wrote: lol... it's science, not really an opinion. High level american football revolves heavily around limiting factors such as an individual's sheer muscle mass, body weight and size (height, width) but that is independent of motor skill, which is what I'm talking about. But w/e this is ridiculously off topic. GL inori maybe you will change my view on LoL Why do you keep on replying, it's obvious that he's made his point and wishes the tangent to end. You're just derailing this thread. | ||
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aviator116
United States820 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:54 DonKey_ wrote: This is still all subjective though, because there is not a metric that is applied. More importantly though how is it relevant to anyone? If you can't see that it is somewhat a way to view that something requires less skill that is fine. I'm not really here to convince anyone of that. I think anyone who had no vested interest in either game would probably agree though. How is it relevant to an argument about skill ceilings? Depends if someone is willing to accept it is evidence and not fact. | ||
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On November 26 2012 10:54 zefreak wrote: Yes there is a strategy for Rock Paper Scissors, although I see you are covering your ass by saying 'a single game'. Anyways, assuming you aren't being disingenuous and trying to "catch" me with a technicality, the optimal play is a mixed strategy of rock 1/3rd of the time, paper 1/3rd and scissors 1/3rd. Good luck trying to do that in a truely random way over a large sample size. Skill ceiling - out of reach of human participants, still not as hard as Chess or Go. Sure "I covered my ass", were we talking about playing games in a series? I could see what you were trying to with your other post, but the example you give is not comparable to "e-sports" titles, because they contain an unquantifiable amount of greater complexities already. Let's say however I did have metric scale for skill ceiling achievable. Chess would be a 100, LoL would be a 1,000,000 and 1,100,000 would be Dota2. How for most people who cannot even get that 100 skill ceiling would differences in the hundreds of thousands even matter. Skill ceiling is something that just shouldn't be cared about by us players who cannot reach it. On November 26 2012 11:06 NoobSkills wrote: If you can't see that it is somewhat a way to view that something requires less skill that is fine. I'm not really here to convince anyone of that. I think anyone who had no vested interest in either game would probably agree though. How is it relevant to an argument about skill ceilings? Depends if someone is willing to accept it is evidence and not fact. What I'm asking is if you think that a higher skill ceiling game some how affects us who play, but cannot even reach it? We are talking about things so unfathomably far from obtaining we cannot even imagine it. | ||
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thepuppyassassin
900 Posts
That's literally all the connection that I can make this bit of news. Goodbye .. guy. | ||
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The Final Boss
United States1839 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On November 26 2012 11:07 DonKey_ wrote: Sure "I covered my ass", were we talking about playing games in a series? I could see what you were trying to with your other post, but the example you give is not comparable to "e-sports" titles, because they contain an unquantifiable amount of greater complexities already. Let's say however I did have metric scale for skill ceiling achievable. Chess would be a 100, LoL would be a 1,000,000 and 1,100,000 would be Dota2. How for most people who cannot even get that 100 skill ceiling would differences in the hundreds of thousands even matter. Skill ceiling is something that just shouldn't be cared about by us players who cannot reach it. What I'm asking is if you think that a higher skill ceiling game some how affects us who play, but cannot even reach it? We are talking about things so unfathomably far from obtaining we cannot even imagine it. Meh, the skill ceiling on the whole could never be reached anyway. It actually isn't even relevant to what people like. I personally don't give a shit about it, but i was relevant to the first guy who responded. I think people should just like what they like and enjoy it. I did like SC2 more when it was more aggressive, now I prefer MOBA because there is real action all the time even when just CSing | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On November 26 2012 11:24 The Final Boss wrote: I said I was done posting, but I guess I lied. I know that I am right, I know that DonKey_ is the only other sensible person here, and what I certainly know is that LoL is growing faster than any other game right now and it's going to go way farther than StarCraft 2 (which is becoming more and more stagnant) and DotA 2. You guys can keep your snobby elitist crap, I used to love watching StarCraft 2 and the community was great but it's really too bad that TL has become a bastion of bashing a game that is undoubtedly going to be more successful. It doesn't take "less skill," but rather different skills, and talking about a "perfect" game or skill ceilings serves no use. That's all, gg. Things I learned from this post: you are overconfident, you rely on a non sequitur (LoL's popularity) to make your point, you take things much too seriously and you apparently haven't been reading the last few posts because one thing we are NOT doing is bashing LoL. Thanks for your valuable input | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
On November 26 2012 11:24 The Final Boss wrote: I said I was done posting, but I guess I lied. I know that I am right, I know that DonKey_ is the only other sensible person here, and what I certainly know is that LoL is growing faster than any other game right now and it's going to go way farther than StarCraft 2 (which is becoming more and more stagnant) and DotA 2. You guys can keep your snobby elitist crap, I used to love watching StarCraft 2 and the community was great but it's really too bad that TL has become a bastion of bashing a game that is undoubtedly going to be more successful. It doesn't take "less skill," but rather different skills, and talking about a "perfect" game or skill ceilings serves no use. That's all, gg. Things that tell me you're into LoL so much that if I said LoL was not a chesse burger you would say it was in fact a cheese burger. You we can keep our high tea and SC2 matches... lol elitist Community was trash in beta. You used to love to watch it, but somehow the community made the games less appealing to you lol. It does take far less skill. Arguing about a game that takes less skill does in fact serve no use. | ||
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BlinkGosu
United States46 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24326 Posts
On November 26 2012 11:24 The Final Boss wrote: I said I was done posting, but I guess I lied. I know that I am right, I know that DonKey_ is the only other sensible person here, and what I certainly know is that LoL is growing faster than any other game right now and it's going to go way farther than StarCraft 2 (which is becoming more and more stagnant) and DotA 2. You guys can keep your snobby elitist crap, I used to love watching StarCraft 2 and the community was great but it's really too bad that TL has become a bastion of bashing a game that is undoubtedly going to be more successful. It doesn't take "less skill," but rather different skills, and talking about a "perfect" game or skill ceilings serves no use. That's all, gg. You don't have to be a snobby elitist to dislike LoL. A lot of the reaction here is in part to LoL being a seemingly omnipresent point of discussion, even in the SC2 sections. Some people go out of their way to bash the game as a reaction to this, but personally feel each to his own. That said I am fucking, 100% sick of LoL talk in every other thread when we should be talking about SC2 and other games that are you know, actually the point of TL. That or whining 'SC2 is stagnant every game is boring' in a world where just last week we had Grubby's comebacks, Sting living on a knife edge and bloody Gumiho playing some of the most fun to watch Starcraft 2 I've seen in ages. If you don't like SC2, (not you personally but a general plea to posters) stop making the whole forum have to sit and stew in your disillusion with a game you are not obligated to play. You can be an active TLer on many other areas of this fine site, stop with this pointless, inter-game pissing contest, the 'facts' about either game being harder/easier that are actually subjective interpretations all of that really. Incredibly obnoxious I mean Inori has a retirement thread for 24 pages and going because LoL is involved, it's a shame perhaps he would have delayed quitting if people paid him any kind of attention when he was actually playing SC2. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On November 26 2012 12:22 Wombat_NI wrote: You don't have to be a snobby elitist to dislike LoL. A lot of the reaction here is in part to LoL being a seemingly omnipresent point of discussion, even in the SC2 sections. Some people go out of their way to bash the game as a reaction to this, but personally feel each to his own. That said I am fucking, 100% sick of LoL talk in every other thread when we should be talking about SC2 and other games that are you know, actually the point of TL. That or whining 'SC2 is stagnant every game is boring' in a world where just last week we had Grubby's comebacks, Sting living on a knife edge and bloody Gumiho playing some of the most fun to watch Starcraft 2 I've seen in ages. If you don't like SC2, (not you personally but a general plea to posters) stop making the whole forum have to sit and stew in your disillusion with a game you are not obligated to play. You can be an active TLer on many other areas of this fine site, stop with this pointless, inter-game pissing contest, the 'facts' about either game being harder/easier that are actually subjective interpretations all of that really. Incredibly obnoxious I mean Inori has a retirement thread for 24 pages and going because LoL is involved, it's a shame perhaps he would have delayed quitting if people paid him any kind of attention when he was actually playing SC2. This is the best post in the thread, and I feel kind of stupid for joining the LoL discussion after reading it. Good on you, sir. | ||
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fujundevil
China16 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:58 MrMercuG wrote: To be fair CoCa and Puzzle were quite good at this game, lol. Really? I thought puzzle was such a talented SC2 player, Slayers ruine him . Hope he's doing well in LOL Anyway, do you know what team Puzzle joined in LOL league? | ||
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thepuppyassassin
900 Posts
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On November 26 2012 12:22 Wombat_NI wrote: You don't have to be a snobby elitist to dislike LoL. A lot of the reaction here is in part to LoL being a seemingly omnipresent point of discussion, even in the SC2 sections. Some people go out of their way to bash the game as a reaction to this, but personally feel each to his own. That said I am fucking, 100% sick of LoL talk in every other thread when we should be talking about SC2 and other games that are you know, actually the point of TL. That or whining 'SC2 is stagnant every game is boring' in a world where just last week we had Grubby's comebacks, Sting living on a knife edge and bloody Gumiho playing some of the most fun to watch Starcraft 2 I've seen in ages. If you don't like SC2, (not you personally but a general plea to posters) stop making the whole forum have to sit and stew in your disillusion with a game you are not obligated to play. You can be an active TLer on many other areas of this fine site, stop with this pointless, inter-game pissing contest, the 'facts' about either game being harder/easier that are actually subjective interpretations all of that really. Incredibly obnoxious I mean Inori has a retirement thread for 24 pages and going because LoL is involved, it's a shame perhaps he would have delayed quitting if people paid him any kind of attention when he was actually playing SC2. Hit the nail on the head Wombat.. | ||
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sickoota
Canada918 Posts
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 26 2012 12:22 Wombat_NI wrote: You don't have to be a snobby elitist to dislike LoL. A lot of the reaction here is in part to LoL being a seemingly omnipresent point of discussion, even in the SC2 sections. Some people go out of their way to bash the game as a reaction to this, but personally feel each to his own. That said I am fucking, 100% sick of LoL talk in every other thread when we should be talking about SC2 and other games that are you know, actually the point of TL. This is 100% of the reason why forums add new sections. If TL insists on putting its eggs in the DotA2 basket then LoL will continue to be discussed in random places. Period. | ||
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TheRealNanMan
United States1471 Posts
Best of luck in whatever you do inori | ||
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
[edit] From a monetization perspective, the prize pots aren't significantly larger than SC2 pots and they have to split it 6 ways usually (1 for the team, 1 for each member (5 members)) so it's hardly any more money compared to SC2. | ||
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MiQ
Canada312 Posts
On November 27 2012 00:51 lolmlg wrote: This is 100% of the reason why forums add new sections. If TL insists on putting its eggs in the DotA2 basket then LoL will continue to be discussed in random places. Period. There is a designated section for LoL... wake up and use it. Period. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 27 2012 01:24 MiQ wrote: There is a designated section for LoL... wake up and use it. Period. Yeah, a subsection of a section that's basically equivalent to "other". Between "Sports & Games" and "Health & Fitness". It's the biggest PC game in the world with a large competitive scene. That is the reality of the situation and not catering to that demographic with a prominent forum section, features, news, etc. results in what you are seeing. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:32 lolmlg wrote: Yeah, a subsection of a section that's basically equivalent to "other". Between "Sports & Games" and "Health & Fitness". It's the biggest PC game in the world with a large competitive scene. That is the reality of the situation and not catering to that demographic with a prominent forum section, features, news, etc. results in what you are seeing. ..What are you even talking about? | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
Pretty sure we were talking about LoL and constant seeping of LoL as a topic into other areas. | ||
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:32 lolmlg wrote: Yeah, a subsection of a section that's basically equivalent to "other". Between "Sports & Games" and "Health & Fitness". It's the biggest PC game in the world with a large competitive scene. That is the reality of the situation and not catering to that demographic with a prominent forum section, features, news, etc. results in what you are seeing. Go read the Ten Commandments again. Hell I'll post the relevant point to you On September 13 2004 22:42 mensrea wrote: 1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply ban you. This is their forums. If you don't like it, great. Its still their call who they want to prioritise. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:40 Hassybaby wrote: Go read the Ten Commandments again. Hell I'll post the relevant point to you This is their forums. If you don't like it, great. Its still their call who they want to prioritise. Sorry, where in my posts do you see anything about my personal likes and dislikes? I don't think you are reading my posts properly. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:42 lolmlg wrote: Sorry, where in my posts do you see anything about my personal likes and dislikes? I don't think you are reading my posts properly. That's funny because i don't think you're posting properly. Why are you bringing up the site structuring being "flawed" in a thread about a player retiring? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:32 lolmlg wrote: Yeah, a subsection of a section that's basically equivalent to "other". Between "Sports & Games" and "Health & Fitness". It's the biggest PC game in the world with a large competitive scene. That is the reality of the situation and not catering to that demographic with a prominent forum section, features, news, etc. results in what you are seeing. Every other tech company that has chased competitors “numbers”(ie: iphone, Ipad, facebook, Itunes, WoW) has ended is spectacular failure, job loss and embarassment. Blizzard is doing its own thing and will do it well. Spending money trying to “get the people playing LoL” is just a recipe for failure. Also, Riot was founded in 2006, released their first and only game in 2009. Blizzard has been around since 1994(or 1991 if you count older studios) and has released a total of 22 boxed products in that time, including the most successful MMO in history. WoW has over 10 million active users after ten years, after four $40 expansions. LoL has 32 million registered users after 3 years. Call me in 7 years from now to see if that game holds at that number. Also TSL_inori was not very good and I am not shocked he "retired" when 100 kespa pros crashed on to the scene. | ||
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:42 lolmlg wrote: Sorry, where in my posts do you see anything about my personal likes and dislikes? I don't think you are reading my posts properly. Well you're talking about how it's expected to flow over into other sections even though there is a clear area for LoL discussion. guess what, that's not TL's fault, its people who bring it to areas where it doesn't belong. Speaknig of things not belonging.... talking about TL's policy in a thread about a player retiring | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:50 Fragile51 wrote: That's funny because i don't think you're posting properly. Why are you bringing up the site structuring being "flawed" in a thread about a player retiring? My post was a direct reply designed simply to give my opinion on why the thread was already off-topic, and now you've not only posted a completely irrelevant non-reply to that, but you're going carry on complaining as well. How does that make the thread better? | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:54 Hassybaby wrote: Well you're talking about how it's expected to flow over into other sections even though there is a clear area for LoL discussion. guess what, that's not TL's fault, its people who bring it to areas where it doesn't belong. Speaknig of things not belonging.... talking about TL's policy in a thread about a player retiring What does anyone being at fault have to do with it though? It's really irrelevant. We're talking about a simple matter of expectations and crowd control. And let's be real now, very few people remember Inori and the conversation has long since changed direction. Find someone on page 2 to blame because people posting sardonic nonsense in response to my simple statements aren't improving the situation. | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:52 Plansix wrote: Every other tech company that has chased competitors “numbers”(ie: iphone, Ipad, facebook, Itunes, WoW) has ended is spectacular failure, job loss and embarassment. Blizzard is doing its own thing and will do it well. Spending money trying to “get the people playing LoL” is just a recipe for failure. Also, Riot was founded in 2006, released their first and only game in 2009. Blizzard has been around since 1994(or 1991 if you count older studios) and has released a total of 22 boxed products in that time, including the most successful MMO in history. WoW has over 10 million active users after ten years, after four $40 expansions. LoL has 32 million registered users after 3 years. Call me in 7 years from now to see if that game holds at that number. Also TSL_inori was not very good and I am not shocked he "retired" when 100 kespa pros crashed on to the scene. Well for one thing, we aren't talking about Blizzard. If we're talking about MOBAs then the two players are LoL and DotA2, the latter of which is based on a community mod for a Blizzard game and is being developed by Valve. Secondly, people are already playing LoL. Earlier this year it was found to be the most played PC game in the world by a large margin if I remember correctly. If you want to talk about playing catchup, DotA2 is playing catchup with LoL. It isn't doing much to differentiate itself and people want it to somehow take over the MOBA scene. | ||
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
On November 27 2012 03:03 lolmlg wrote: What does anyone being at fault have to do with it though? It's really irrelevant. We're talking about a simple matter of expectations and crowd control. And let's be real now, very few people remember Inori and the conversation has long since changed direction. Find someone on page 2 to blame because people posting sardonic nonsense in response to my simple statements aren't improving the situation. Neither are your statements continuing this pointless discussion in the wrong area. Walk away That goes to everyone esle as well. This isn't about LoL vs anything else. This isn't about TL's stances. This is about a player retiring. Keep it at that | ||
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lolmlg
619 Posts
On November 27 2012 03:13 Hassybaby wrote: Neither are your statements continuing this pointless discussion in the wrong area. Walk away That goes to everyone esle as well. This isn't about LoL vs anything else. This isn't about TL's stances. This is about a player retiring. Keep it at that No issues with that. I didn't have anything else to say about it anyway, the first post was meant to stand by itself. I just wasn't expecting people to be confused. As I mentioned, I do remember little about Inori. But I would wish him luck in whatever he chooses to do. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:32 lolmlg wrote: Yeah, a subsection of a section that's basically equivalent to "other". Between "Sports & Games" and "Health & Fitness". It's the biggest PC game in the world with a large competitive scene. That is the reality of the situation and not catering to that demographic with a prominent forum section, features, news, etc. results in what you are seeing. Surely there must be other forums on the internet that cater to the lol audience? Because there is no responsibility whatsoever by TL to cover any game, it's the TL staff (and Nazgul as owner of this site with the last word) that decides what games to cover. If you don't agree with that, well, you could ask them nicely and if enough people do it, maybe you can change their mind or, second option, just go to another site that covers lol in the way you want. Infesting other games' threads with constant pestering is no solution however. | ||
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MiQ
Canada312 Posts
On November 27 2012 02:32 lolmlg wrote: Yeah, a subsection of a section that's basically equivalent to "other". Between "Sports & Games" and "Health & Fitness". It's the biggest PC game in the world with a large competitive scene. That is the reality of the situation and not catering to that demographic with a prominent forum section, features, news, etc. results in what you are seeing. Well if the game is what you say it is I am sure there are plenty of forums out there to talk bout said game. Catch my drift? | ||
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RedHaZard
Australia56 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:20 JonIrenicus wrote: He did the best choice. . He would be a fool not to go full time on lol. Sc2 is fucked up, and LoL is constantly growing. This is the why no one can criticize also Destiny for the choice he made. No one can critcize Destiny because he was never good at Starcraft 2 lol | ||
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InfusedTT.DaZe
Romania693 Posts
I inoru he does well :D | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19129 Posts
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
This is about to turn into a general gameplay rant so bear with me. StarCraft II is also a horrifically frustrating game with a cutthroat, elitist scene. Even at the ameteur level players have emulated this to a certain degree and based on my experience on battle.net, I have generally been treated like shit by Diamond/Master levelled players simply for having an opinion on balance, giving advice on how to play, asking for advice, asking for practice games etc; simply for being in a lower league than them. I'm basing this assumption on one time when I really tried to push myself to slither out of Gold/Plat and hit a decent ranking. I didn't want to practice against players on ladder out of fear of docking my (at the time decent) winrate and so asked some Diamond and Master level players. All of them did the same thing when I asked politely, they called me a fucking noob, bad practice and ignorelisted me. When a game makes you so anxious at losing the game becuase losing can dock your MMR and hence risk a demotion and therefore a docking of the only measurement of e-penis in the game, make you rage at your opponent, risk a ban, and make you look like a shittier player in general, and hence deter you from outright playing it, it's more a testament to how Blizzard have outright failed with Wings of Liberty. I sucked ass at WarCraft III's ladder, never hitting more than Level 5, losing every tournament game, and generally losing interest in the competitive multiplayer. Did I still want to play it? Yes, becuase it had amazing, fun, constantly created custom maps that surprisingly weren't that hard to build up. In StarCraft II, both the awful design of the Arcade and the clusterfuck that is the Galaxy Editor (trying to just create one hero unit let alone an entire mod is overly complex, it shouldn't be as hard to create a custom map as it is to create a fucking full blown game using the Unreal Development Kit, Unity3D or CryDev) have deterred the creation and subsequent popularising of decent maps greatly. A lot of things contributed heavily to WarCraft III's financial and critical success (and which could sadly end StarCraft II's lifespan early unless serious changes are made in HotS) including the huge mod scene that has the greatest achievement of spawning the highly lucrative MOBA/Action-RTS genre in the first place. What did StarCraft II's mod scene do? Jack shit so far. All we got were a few shoddily designed not-even-original custom maps that have been top of the Arcade for almost two years now like MineralZ Evolution, Aeon of Souls, Squadron TD, Protoss Special Forces, Desert Strike 1338 etc; four Blizzard-created maps; and a few questionable attempts at recreating Brood War units in SC2. So how does this tie with Inori quitting SC2? Well like Destiny said, prize pools in SC2 have been stagnating, are probably on the verge of decline while LoL's viewership, prize pools, professional scene and whatnot are growing. I've lost faith in Blizzard. I haven't seen them announce any improvements to the Galaxy Editor to improve its useability to be on-par with WC3's map editor, nor have I seen them really address the issue of balance and the disparity of new units in the Terran arsenal compared to the Protoss and Zerg. And they've already announced a concrete release date in 4 months! | ||
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mongmong
Korea (South)1389 Posts
Some players are too full of ego (im not targeting Inori btw) to admit losses and they switch to games like LoL to blame their teammates when they lose. User was warned for this post | ||
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skorched
United States81 Posts
On November 23 2012 18:20 JonIrenicus wrote: He did the best choice. . He would be a fool not to go full time on lol. Sc2 is fucked up, and LoL is constantly growing. This is the why no one can criticize also Destiny for the choice he made. Sad to see inori leaving, but as for Destiny, good riddance, he was truely bad for e-sports. | ||
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der Koekje
Netherlands23 Posts
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
On November 27 2012 22:22 Clbull wrote: I can't blame Inori. StarCraft II is simply oversaturated in terms of the professional scene, tournaments, players, teams etc; questionably designed as a competitive title compared to its predecessor; and simply not designed for mass audiences in mind. The numbers in terms of PC bang statistics and general viewership are evident at showing SC2's decline and LoL's surge. If I were Inori, I would have quit SC2 sooner. After all, if I could get on fOu, FXO, ReIGN and TSL, that would prove that I have at least some skill as a professional gamer, and I would have focused on a game like LoL with this confidence in mind. This is about to turn into a general gameplay rant so bear with me. StarCraft II is also a horrifically frustrating game with a cutthroat, elitist scene. Even at the ameteur level players have emulated this to a certain degree and based on my experience on battle.net, I have generally been treated like shit by Diamond/Master levelled players simply for having an opinion on balance, giving advice on how to play, asking for advice, asking for practice games etc; simply for being in a lower league than them. I'm basing this assumption on one time when I really tried to push myself to slither out of Gold/Plat and hit a decent ranking. I didn't want to practice against players on ladder out of fear of docking my (at the time decent) winrate and so asked some Diamond and Master level players. All of them did the same thing when I asked politely, they called me a fucking noob, bad practice and ignorelisted me. When a game makes you so anxious at losing the game becuase losing can dock your MMR and hence risk a demotion and therefore a docking of the only measurement of e-penis in the game, make you rage at your opponent, risk a ban, and make you look like a shittier player in general, and hence deter you from outright playing it, it's more a testament to how Blizzard have outright failed with Wings of Liberty. I sucked ass at WarCraft III's ladder, never hitting more than Level 5, losing every tournament game, and generally losing interest in the competitive multiplayer. Did I still want to play it? Yes, becuase it had amazing, fun, constantly created custom maps that surprisingly weren't that hard to build up. In StarCraft II, both the awful design of the Arcade and the clusterfuck that is the Galaxy Editor (trying to just create one hero unit let alone an entire mod is overly complex, it shouldn't be as hard to create a custom map as it is to create a fucking full blown game using the Unreal Development Kit, Unity3D or CryDev) have deterred the creation and subsequent popularising of decent maps greatly. A lot of things contributed heavily to WarCraft III's financial and critical success (and which could sadly end StarCraft II's lifespan early unless serious changes are made in HotS) including the huge mod scene that has the greatest achievement of spawning the highly lucrative MOBA/Action-RTS genre in the first place. What did StarCraft II's mod scene do? Jack shit so far. All we got were a few shoddily designed not-even-original custom maps that have been top of the Arcade for almost two years now like MineralZ Evolution, Aeon of Souls, Squadron TD, Protoss Special Forces, Desert Strike 1338 etc; four Blizzard-created maps; and a few questionable attempts at recreating Brood War units in SC2. So how does this tie with Inori quitting SC2? Well like Destiny said, prize pools in SC2 have been stagnating, are probably on the verge of decline while LoL's viewership, prize pools, professional scene and whatnot are growing. I've lost faith in Blizzard. I haven't seen them announce any improvements to the Galaxy Editor to improve its useability to be on-par with WC3's map editor, nor have I seen them really address the issue of balance and the disparity of new units in the Terran arsenal compared to the Protoss and Zerg. And they've already announced a concrete release date in 4 months! next time just skip the part which actually belongs to the topic and go on your rant right away so I dont have to waste my time reading this wall of text | ||
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