EPTDH, ESL and MLG Partnership Announced - Page 10
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DavoS
United States4605 Posts
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markrevival
United States222 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46572 Posts
On November 16 2012 02:40 testthewest wrote: Double elimination isn't used in any real sport. Why not learn from organisations that make sports entertainment for Billions of viewers? Why not a simple group stage and a single elimination tournament? Not that abomination of a tournament table like MLG, were group play standings give you an so huge advantage. Learn from FIFA world cup, the biggest sports event ever. While sports and e-sports are very comparable in some regards, they aren't as equal in others. Even a best of three SC2 match takes about an hour. Do we really want half of the players to go home after their first match is over? The idea that they have a second life (especially if the randomized draws don't immediately fall in their favor) is reassuring to both the players and the spectators. I could definitely see players being less happy about flying halfway around the world if they have fewer chances to make it through a tournament. It certainly doesn't make the format less fair either, as long as every player has two lives (including the player who makes it to the finals through the winner's bracket). Just because a tournament format is different than FIFA's doesn't mean it's worse given a totally different scenario  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 16 2012 02:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: While I agree with you that scheduling *the most important games* to appear on a stream gets dicey (because of how subjective it becomes, and you end up with some players ::coughPoltcough:: not getting much air time), as far as tournament format and fairness goes, I always thought it was pretty much established that double elimination is fine, but it's the extended series in addition to double elimination that's the central problem. The extended series seems to be the biggest controversy, and that's what a good number of people want eliminated. Double elmination presents a whole series of problems, most of which the viewers are not aware of. A lot of them are on the broadcast side and prevent us from seeing a lot of games. Here are a few I have seen in the last year off the top of my head: - Inability to predict who is going to play who. Leads to players doing generic builds because they cannot prepare for everything. - Limited ability to prepare to broadcast the next match, due to different groups moving at different speeds. Set up time for the players is also a factor. - To many games for the players, who can't eat, sleep or even know when their match is going to take place. Naniwa vs Flash at 2 am would still be a terrible match because its 2 am and they are both jetlagged to hell. - Impossible to follow brackets that require me to have my kindle fire open just to see what is going on in other brackets. - To many games for veiwers. I can't watch 14 hours of starcraft a day for a weekend, my girlfriend will kill me. | ||
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
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a3den
704 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
I'm slightly concerned we might end up with another MLG/Incontrol situation, but now applied to more tournaments, although over a shorter period of time (since there will be more tournaments on which seeding is based). | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 16 2012 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: While sports and e-sports are very comparable in some regards, they aren't as equal in others. Even a best of three SC2 match takes about an hour. Do we really want half of the players to go home after their first match is over? The idea that they have a second life (especially if the randomized draws don't immediately fall in their favor) is reassuring to both the players and the spectators. I could definitely see players being less happy about flying halfway around the world if they have fewer chances to make it through a tournament. It certainly doesn't make the format less fair either, as long as every player has two lives (including the player who makes it to the finals through the winner's bracket). Just because a tournament format is different than FIFA's doesn't mean it's worse given a totally different scenario That is a problem for the players, but for me, I sounds like heaven. I thinkt hat problem can be solved by have minor events like Home Story Cup and Loan Star Cup around the same time as a major event. It makes the travel money worth it, leads to more exposure for teams and takes the sting out of being elminated the first day. I only have so much free time. I want to watch Esports, but I can't watch for an entire weekend. What is great for players may just suck for viewers. | ||
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THM
Bulgaria1131 Posts
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
Now to try and get a Global E-Sports federation. Thank you for understanding E-Sports; MLG ESL DH | ||
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phyre112
United States3090 Posts
On November 16 2012 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: While sports and e-sports are very comparable in some regards, they aren't as equal in others. Even a best of three SC2 match takes about an hour. Do we really want half of the players to go home after their first match is over? The idea that they have a second life (especially if the randomized draws don't immediately fall in their favor) is reassuring to both the players and the spectators. I could definitely see players being less happy about flying halfway around the world if they have fewer chances to make it through a tournament. It certainly doesn't make the format less fair either, as long as every player has two lives (including the player who makes it to the finals through the winner's bracket). Just because a tournament format is different than FIFA's doesn't mean it's worse given a totally different scenario I think the key difference is that pro sports typically have a regular season - NFL plays 16 games a year and THEN has playoffs. NBA plays 82 games, has a break, and THEN playoffs. In either case, only top teams qualify anyway. You don't need the second chance bracket, because if there's an upset in the first round - well, the team has already proved that they belong there anyway. works the same way in proleague, IPTL, and NASL (GSTL should catch on to that and have a "season") whereas the weekend tournaments we have right now throw players right into a playoff structure. It's not cool. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46572 Posts
On November 16 2012 02:50 Plansix wrote: Double elmination presents a whole series of problems, most of which the viewers are not aware of. A lot of them are on the broadcast side and prevent us from seeing a lot of games. Here are a few I have seen in the last year off the top of my head: - Inability to predict who is going to play who. Leads to players doing generic builds because they cannot prepare for everything. - Limited ability to prepare to broadcast the next match, due to different groups moving at different speeds. Set up time for the players is also a factor. - To many games for the players, who can't eat, sleep or even know when their match is going to take place. Naniwa vs Flash at 2 am would still be a terrible match because its 2 am and they are both jetlagged to hell. - Impossible to follow brackets that require me to have my kindle fire open just to see what is going on in other brackets. - To many games for veiwers. I can't watch 14 hours of starcraft a day for a weekend, my girlfriend will kill me. Half these problems just tell me you've never had Liquipedia open during a major tournament. Just click refresh and you know where everyone is and who may play who in the future. I think if you have an issue with "too many" games of StarCraft from a viewer perspective, then I don't really know what to say. Watch the VODs another time? Have your girlfriend watch them with you? Go close the stream and do something else and return whenever you can? You'd be watching the same number of games anyway, but those of us who can handle watching back-to-back games can enjoy the tournament during its entirety. The big problem that you pointed out that I do agree with is the problem of scheduling and stamina for the players. And yes, that's because there are more games that need to be played in a double elimination tournament than a single elimination one. It's definitely an issue if a player has to play a ton of games back to back, or has to start really early and then his last game is very late and hasn't been told of his schedule at all. I feel like a lot of these things can be solved with better scheduling and informing and communicating between the tournament organizers and the players though. I don't believe this problem is a necessity that can't be ameliorated. | ||
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S_SienZ
1878 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
Can't wait for the fallout on this one. | ||
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TheSir
1830 Posts
On November 16 2012 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: While sports and e-sports are very comparable in some regards, they aren't as equal in others. Even a best of three SC2 match takes about an hour. Do we really want half of the players to go home after their first match is over? The idea that they have a second life (especially if the randomized draws don't immediately fall in their favor) is reassuring to both the players and the spectators. I could definitely see players being less happy about flying halfway around the world if they have fewer chances to make it through a tournament. It certainly doesn't make the format less fair either, as long as every player has two lives (including the player who makes it to the finals through the winner's bracket). Just because a tournament format is different than FIFA's doesn't mean it's worse given a totally different scenario Uuh he suggest group (pool) play, which usually means your always going to play 3 matches and 99% of the times you can lose at least one game (sometimes even 2). Like with Dreamhack, if your any good then your almost certain to play at least 6 matches (2 group stages) instead of the 3 matches with almost 0% chance if you have a unlucky draw, like at the last MLG. All tho he is wrong, there are lost of sports where you have double (judo) or single (tennis) elimination structures but group/pool play followed up by single elimination is by far the most used structure in sports because yes it's more fair but not all sports are suited for group play, SC2 is tho. | ||
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
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masaker
23 Posts
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Daeracon
Sweden203 Posts
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iNviSible.yunO
Germany211 Posts
edit: On November 16 2012 03:12 Daeracon wrote: Fuck yeah! I like the sound of this, hope this will be all that the scene deserves! Damn you, you stole my line! | ||
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Didn't really expect it to occur anyway (at least, for the main championship events). 
