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On November 09 2012 00:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:27 RockIronrod wrote:On November 09 2012 00:24 KOtical wrote:On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote:
Where's the option to make other races use their casters more? in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp... Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously). Snipe range: 10 Broodlord range: 9.5 Overseer detection range: 11 Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote:
Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it. No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat?
You're not reading his post, the reason infestors are OP, according to him, is because they can be massed without penalty because of Fungal growth, if the can't be massed, you can't surround an army with IT eggs and you wont die, etc.
If you only need/want 3-5 infestors (which can be sniped easier than 20-30), you don't rain down IT's.
I agree with the fact Fungal is OP, not with IT's or NP, whatever idiot came up with the last one. NP is hardly used, besides the mothership.
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What about:
Fungeld units can't be attacked while fungled and then increase fungle duration a bit.
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On November 09 2012 00:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:27 RockIronrod wrote:On November 09 2012 00:24 KOtical wrote:On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote:
Where's the option to make other races use their casters more? in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp... Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously). Snipe range: 10 Broodlord range: 9.5 Overseer detection range: 11 Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote:
Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it. No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat?
Again, the problem is with having 20-30 Infestors on the field, not the IT ability.
The problem is multifaceted, and honestly, you could completely remove the IT ability and we would STILL see 20-30 Infestors on the field. I don't see how anybody can seriously argue against that. Think about that for a minute.
Establishing that the ability can be removed completely and not remove my incentive to mass infestors all game long should be more than enough evidence that IT is not the problem.
Here are some of the issues with the Infestor:
1) Fungal Growth completely locks down entire armies outside of combat range given enough energy to continually cast until death.
2) Zerg has no incentive to build non-infestor ground units for their "perfect army" composition. Everything that isn't an infestor gets destroyed by the standard mid-game compositions the other races have to offer and absolutely trashed by late-game compositions.
3) The Brood Lord is a fairly poor combat unit. It's like a Siege Tank with no splash, less range, and slower movement. Really you can't just build as many BL as possible and win vs any standard army. Standard units like Marines and Stalkers can easily clean up BL armies provided they can get within range.
4) Zerg has no "generalist" unit. Terran have the Marine, Protoss has the Stalker, and it would seem that Zerg SHOULD have the Hydra, but we've all seen how well they fair in regular combat. Instead, we get the Infestor, which had fungal buffed so it could fulfill this "core unit" role rather than getting a standard combat core.
5) The viability of the entire Zerg army is directly proportional to the gas-value of said army (minerals are cheap, plentiful, and largely useless). The best way to maintain the gas investment is with a unit like the infestor that doesn't actually have to trade or even engage with the enemy army. Further dissuading Zerg from non-Infestor units. Really, the challenge of Zerg has been figuring out WHEN you can afford to start investing endlessly in the continually growing infestor-ball.
Some reasonable fixes:
1) Make the Hydralisk useful as a generalist unit. At that point, you should be able to completely remove the Infestor without reasonably destroying the Zerg race.
2) So long as Zerg has something else to rely on, reduce the general utility/necessity of endless fungal spam for mid and late-game combat by directly reducing the effectiveness of the ability. It's not fun in it's current iteration, so apply any number of the suggest fungal-related fixes until satisfied.
3) Turn the Infestor into a niche-filling unit like the other casters. I should still WANT to have a handful of infestors, just not 30+. Give me a reason to want to cast NP and you'll have fulfilled this. Right now, that spell is generally a waste and not even worth researching unless a Mothership is on the field.
The irony in all this is that the Infestor was fine before Blizzard fucked with fungal. Infestors had harass through IT, 2 utility abilities to help with standard Zerg armies through Fungal and NP, and it was already filling its niche quite nicely.
Blizzard made the big mistake of making it the one end-all-be-all unit for the entire Zerg army and that's where our problems come from.
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On November 09 2012 00:58 Giku wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:49 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:27 RockIronrod wrote:On November 09 2012 00:24 KOtical wrote:On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote:
Where's the option to make other races use their casters more? in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp... Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously). Snipe range: 10 Broodlord range: 9.5 Overseer detection range: 11 On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote:
Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it. No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat? You're not reading his post, the reason infestors are OP, according to him, is because they can be massed without penalty because of Fungal growth, if the can't be massed, you can't surround an army with IT eggs and you wont die, etc. If you only need/want 3-5 infestors (which can be sniped easier than 20-30), you don't rain down IT's. I agree with the fact Fungal is OP, not with IT's or NP, whatever idiot came up with the last one. NP is hardly used, besides the mothership.
Zergs don't mass Infestors against mech because of Fungal, they mass them to shower your army with IT eggs. Fungal is absolutely secondary to IT spam in many cases.
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Maybe something can be done to how fungal functions in relation to whether or not its being used on creep, ie, when fungals on creep units get pinned down, off creep they get slowed. Or something completely else in relation to on/off creep, just brainstorming here.
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Eh, keep fungal as is, remove IT and NP. Problem solved.
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Just make fungal growth slow instead of kill. (Could you then blink when FGed with this change?)
If that is not enough (although i'm sure it would be) increase infestor cost to 3 supply.
EDIT: Traz's idea about the spell having varied power on creep is interesting. Maybe infested terrans hatch normally on creep, +2 seconds off creep or something? But thats just a random idea not something to take too seriously other then discussion.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 09 2012 01:10 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:49 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:27 RockIronrod wrote:On November 09 2012 00:24 KOtical wrote:On November 09 2012 00:23 Carnate wrote:
Where's the option to make other races use their casters more? in TvZ its the problem that ghosts emp radius is to small to hit enough infestors, or infestors are too big... however you wanna see it. but by increasing the radius would lead to an imbalanced tvp... Snipe 2 hits Infestors from a longer range. The nerf didn't affect it's use against psionic units (I think it's actually stronger against them than previously). Snipe range: 10 Broodlord range: 9.5 Overseer detection range: 11 On November 09 2012 00:30 Jermstuddog wrote:
Really, ANY suggestion to adjust IT is rather baseless. IT is a good spell, it has uses, it is strong, cheap, and offers one of the only viable harass methods the Zerg army possess. IT is NOT good for peppering a few eggs into a standing army. ITs fall quickly to AoE damage, ITs need lots of casts to be useful in general. The ability has positives and negatives, it's fucking balanced, stop crying about it. No it's not. Showering entire armies to the point they are surrounded by eggs and then just die to the massive, out of control DPS it provides is certainly not “balanced”. Because there are not only ITs, you know. Meanwhile, Broodlords are also summoning their own supply-free army. And even against air, how can you fail to realize how stupid it is that both BCs and Carriers-based armies, the most expensive fleets Terran and Protoss can build, die just to IT spam + a few Fungals if they try to retreat? Again, the problem is with having 20-30 Infestors on the field, not the IT ability. The problem is multifaceted, and honestly, you could completely remove the IT ability and we would STILL see 20-30 Infestors on the field. I don't see how anybody can seriously argue against that. Think about that for a minute. Establishing that the ability can be removed completely and not remove my incentive to mass infestors all game long should be more than enough evidence that IT is not the problem. Here are some of the issues with the Infestor: 1) Fungal Growth completely locks down entire armies outside of combat range given enough energy to continually cast until death. 2) Zerg has no incentive to build non-infestor ground units for their "perfect army" composition. Everything that isn't an infestor gets destroyed by the standard mid-game compositions the other races have to offer and absolutely trashed by late-game compositions. 3) The Brood Lord is a fairly poor combat unit. It's like a Siege Tank with no splash, less range, and slower movement. Really you can't just build as many BL as possible and win vs any standard army. Standard units like Marines and Stalkers can easily clean up BL armies provided they can get within range. 4) Zerg has no "generalist" unit. Terran have the Marine, Protoss has the Stalker, and it would seem that Zerg SHOULD have the Hydra, but we've all seen how well they fair in regular combat. Instead, we get the Infestor, which had fungal buffed so it could fulfill this "core unit" role rather than getting a standard combat core. 5) The viability of the entire Zerg army is directly proportional to the gas-value of said army (minerals are cheap, plentiful, and largely useless). The best way to maintain the gas investment is with a unit like the infestor that doesn't actually have to trade or even engage with the enemy army. Further dissuading Zerg from non-Infestor units. Really, the challenge of Zerg has been figuring out WHEN you can afford to start investing endlessly in the continually growing infestor-ball. Some reasonable fixes: 1) Make the Hydralisk useful as a generalist unit. At that point, you should be able to completely remove the Infestor without reasonably destroying the Zerg race. 2) So long as Zerg has something else to rely on, reduce the general utility/necessity of endless fungal spam for mid and late-game combat by directly reducing the effectiveness of the ability. It's not fun in it's current iteration, so apply any number of the suggest fungal-related fixes until satisfied. 3) Turn the Infestor into a niche-filling unit like the other casters. I should still WANT to have a handful of infestors, just not 30+. Give me a reason to want to cast NP and you'll have fulfilled this. Right now, that spell is generally a waste and not even worth researching unless a Mothership is on the field. The irony in all this is that the Infestor was fine before Blizzard fucked with fungal. It had harass through IT, 2 utility abilities to help with standard Zerg armies through Fungal and NP, and it was already filling its niche quite nicely. Blizzard made the big mistake of making it the one end-all-be-all unit for the entire Zerg army and that's where our problems come from.
I completly agree, as far as the metagame is concerned the infestor's rise to prominence can really be traced back to fungal changes that set this whole thing in motion.
Increased viability of the Hydra could be a possible solution, but must be implemented carefully as zerg balance in the different matchups proves a wide array of complications
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Canada16217 Posts
On November 09 2012 00:54 ROOTT1 wrote:this is a delicate subject because overnerfing infestors would make zerg terrible o_o, tbh i think creep is as big of an issue if not even bigger than infestors currently are 1)infestors 3 supply (still not sure about this one) 2)0 armor infested terran eggs and have their hp carry over once they hatch (having their hp carry over might be too big of a nerf aswell, at the very least infested terran eggs should have 0 armor) 3)make interceptors immune to fungal (100%) 4)make the mothership immune to neural (100%) both 3) and 4) are obviously pvz related  , i think the biggest issue in tvz is that infested terrans are too cost efficient against mech and fungal is too cost efficient against bio.. balancing those 2 spells out while trying to maintain some sort of balance in zvp is going to be problematic =/
I agree with all of your suggestions, of course implementing all 4 at once would be too much so maybe 1-2 should be tested at first.
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On November 08 2012 21:51 Glockateer wrote:
I'd honestly try making the fungal a slow and the infested terrans cost 30 mana then see what happens. I know blizzard likes going in sets of 25 but 50 mana infested terrans would be pretty terrible. If they can't break the 25 interval mana thing then the eggs and infested should have reduced hp. For 25 mana, they're passed out like fun-sized candy on Halloween.
I feel like a lot of problems could be solved if blizzard didn't force spells costs to be a multiple of 25.
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I think that fungal should attack air as well because it would be extremely difficult for zerg to build the anti air if the zerg is going ling roach infestor. If not, it would require for zergs to get their spire up so much faster then normal
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On November 09 2012 01:13 Zdrastochye wrote:
Eh, keep fungal as is, remove IT and NP. Problem solved.
Not sure if trolling, but that is the complete opposite of what needs to be adressed.
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On November 09 2012 01:21 NeonFox wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:13 Zdrastochye wrote:
Eh, keep fungal as is, remove IT and NP. Problem solved. Not sure if trolling, but that is the complete opposite of what needs to be adressed.
Point being what people find discouraging about Infestors has changed with every passing month. Wait a bit longer and my post will be exactly what people are in line with fixing. At the end of the day Browder couldn't have been any clearer about waiting out the shit storm at least until HotS, no matter how many TL threads are made.
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Anyone got that vod of Leenock doing the 3 infester Burrow fungal?
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One additional change I would suggest is that fungal can damage but not root massive units. Also while typing I just thought of one more; fungal only prevents blink for 1.5sec. That would allow lings/roaches/banes to close the distance and get some hits in on stalkers, but not make it so if you hit a fungal on stalkers they are simply dead.
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The real issue is that none of these threads really help at all. The OP usually doesn't know heads or tails of the game to be making balance discussions and this is no different.
You CAN'T discuss radical changes to the Infestor without first discussing all the other changes that would need to be made to various units to change the race itself so that its playable with the new changes.
Zerg's army power is directly related to its gas content. The later the game goes, the more important it is to have gas units in the composition. If you modify the infestor with pretty much any of the suggested nerfs I see in the OP, you'd have to make very significant changes to multiple other Zerg units to cover the huge hole that now exists.
Honestly its better to just let Blizz pump out HotS and Void and pick up the pieces of balance after all these radical changes we KNOW we can't avoid happening have already finished.
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On November 08 2012 23:54 emis wrote:
• remove fungal growth damage
• add attack speed slowing effect (75%)
• increase spell duration by 1-2 seconds
If fungal damage is taken out 100% might as well take the damn unit out of the game...
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projectile fungal, slow instead of snare, 3 supply, terran eggs same HP, NP not able to target mothership, are good potential changes. the others are bad and would make the infestor far too terrible
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On November 09 2012 01:27 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:21 NeonFox wrote:On November 09 2012 01:13 Zdrastochye wrote:
Eh, keep fungal as is, remove IT and NP. Problem solved. Not sure if trolling, but that is the complete opposite of what needs to be adressed. Point being what people find discouraging about Infestors has changed with every passing month. Wait a bit longer and my post will be exactly what people are in line with fixing. At the end of the day Browder couldn't have been any clearer about waiting out the shit storm at least until HotS, no matter how many TL threads are made.
People have bitched about fungal for a while, and now it's pretty clear why, and justified. Broodlord infestor is stupid, players win games they shouldn't because of it, terrans and protoss have no answer lategame unless they do a huge amount of damage in the midgame or the zerg screws up.
The biggest mess of all is PvZ and vortex. I can't stand watching any PvZ games anymore because everyone knows what's going to happen before the game even starts, I would have even stopped playing altogether if I didn't find out about Symbols Ultralisk ZvP style.
In sc2 comebacks should be about outplaying your opponent and pulling crazy tricks, not hold until you have enough broodlord infestors and win. Pros are complaining, random scrubs are complaining, spectators are complaining, even zergs are complaining about the mess that is fungal, something needs to be adressed fast.
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On November 09 2012 01:17 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:54 ROOTT1 wrote:this is a delicate subject because overnerfing infestors would make zerg terrible o_o, tbh i think creep is as big of an issue if not even bigger than infestors currently are 1)infestors 3 supply (still not sure about this one) 2)0 armor infested terran eggs and have their hp carry over once they hatch (having their hp carry over might be too big of a nerf aswell, at the very least infested terran eggs should have 0 armor) 3)make interceptors immune to fungal (100%) 4)make the mothership immune to neural (100%) both 3) and 4) are obviously pvz related , i think the biggest issue in tvz is that infested terrans are too cost efficient against mech and fungal is too cost efficient against bio.. balancing those 2 spells out while trying to maintain some sort of balance in zvp is going to be problematic =/ I agree with all of your suggestions, of course implementing all 4 at once would be too much so maybe 1-2 should be tested at first.
yea i also agree, i think minor changes should be done at first. thats why i think that my 3rd and 4th points are both quick & safe fixes that would help zvp in particular, while still maintaining the strength of infestors
that being said similar fixes need to occur in tvz and i honestly cant see that happening because their race lacks aoe in the early/middgame.. which is what u need against infestors. the main issue in tvz is that infested terrans are too cost efficient against mech and fungal is too cost efficient against bio, in order to fix these issues you have to tweak core spells and that would end up hurting z in zvp =/
terran requires more drastic nerfs because once you combine zerg units and infestors on creep it becomes an almost unmicroable scnario for terran. with protoss we have options in these type of situations because we can clear creep out much more efficiently(starting at the ~13min mark) and we can also control battles with forcefield.. which terran unfortunately cannot do
its funny because both terran and protoss have the exact opposite strenghts and weakness' against zerg : D, protoss is much better in the early/middgame vs zerg(due to the facility of controlling creep) but much worse in the lategame(due to the lack of cost efficient units). terran is worse vs zerg in the early/middgame(due to the inability of clearing creep and on-creep battle management) and much better in the lategame(due to cost effectiveness of raven/mech coupled with the strenght of mules and lack of scvs)
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EPT
