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Speechless. How can they still be in denial that there is a not a problem with brood/infestor?
Both Terran and Protoss have nothing solid against broodlord/infestor in the lategame, and brood/infestor is literally the best option Zerg has right now which is bad too.
If it's Zerg VS Protoss/Terran, and the Zerg knows how to abuse massing literally 20+ infestors, broodlords, and spine crawlers, if both players are the same skill, or even in some cases the Zerg lower skill level, the Zerg wins a majority of the time from the most ridiculous positions.
The stats do not mean shit if you do not put them into context. You can say a match-up is perfectly even 50/50 balance but if one race has to all-in to make that stat card something is wrong. Look at PvZ right now, 2 base sentry/immortal or die to brood/infestor turtle. TvZ is not any better, with Terran having the raven in such shabby shape compared to brood/infestor.
People really need to speak up now man, otherwise this truly just will be Zergcraft2. Every RTS that has died while brood war lived on died for one of two reasons:
a) the company stopped supporting the game due to forcing development teams onto other projects, or just did not want to spend money into supporting their game
b) the design team of that company stopped actively balancing the game, and when obvious and game breaking balance problems came up, they were left alone for months at a time while people slowly left the game.
It's obvious blizzard is not going to stop supporting the games, and they are working hard and have passion...so that leaves option b...balance the damn game!
When a strategy is so good, too good, to the point that it is the single best thing to do...it needs to be nerfed. I think myself and other people do not understand blizzard when they knee jerk nerf ghosts because they "did not want them massed" but later when infestors are showing they can do even more than ghosts ever could TvZ they leave them alone for months at a time.
So speak up now people! Unless you truly enjoy the current spectacle. Because guess what? All that drama about the "game dying" etc etc, at it's core has nothing to do with dick picks, talk shows, or casuals. It has to do with the gameplay.
I've been telling people the last few weeks: Spectators are not stupid. People are going to start to catch on that "oh, so every game this happens? Same thing? Infestor broodlord? Every match-up?" When it comes down to it, if the gameplay is suffering from a balance issue spectators WILL take notice. And they WILL leave if it becomes too obvious there's a problem.
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On November 07 2012 01:59 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:52 BAAEEMM wrote:
Everything else but LoL having more players than SC2 would be a huge surprise because a) it's free and b) it's easier and thus more attractive to casual gamers than SC2. I don't understand why people always have to draw those comparisons. I don't care how many people are plaing LoL. As long as SC2 is a good game it will not die. Nuff said. People always say that but look at Korea where they log playtime at internet cafes where you pay by the hour, and LoL still is the most played game over there. It goes far deeper than just LoL being F2P. LoL is simply a much better game for casuals. SC1 was also far more attractive for casuals than SC2, so it isn't necessarily a genre thing either.
.... you mean customs right? i think joining ICCUP was the most daunting thing i ever undertook when it comes to gaming..
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On November 07 2012 01:57 Seiniyta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:50 aTnClouD wrote:On November 07 2012 01:48 S_SienZ wrote:On November 07 2012 01:39 Seiniyta wrote:On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote:
How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job. You never fail to amuse me with your endless negativity. And if you actually would read the fucking interview you'd probably also have read that they are aware there's an issue with some matchup's. Especially in ZvP. However they also remark that across tournaments and the ladder the races that win seem pretty balanced. And any statistical prove that people are leaving SC2 to watch LoL? there was a small event not too long ago in Sweden which drew about 100k viewers fro SC2 which is a ton. Even the last MLG was doing quite well. Everyone knows that, that has been standard Blizzard response since ever. And that kind of reasoning is retarded. According to that reasoning, Zergs having a 100% unloseable lategame would be perfectly balanced as long as a Terran 11 / 11 rax has a 50% win rate at the highest level. Tic-tac-toe is pretty balanced too, is it fun to watch? Stop being negative! Exactly :D. Now more on point. I think why they haven't actually adressed this issue in Wings of Liberty is because they realized that it's a game design issue and can't simply be fixed with a patch. If you nerf the Infestor you cripple zerg, and other things have to be changed etc. I think that's why they're just focussing on HoTS instead and hoping to fix it there.
Problem is, HoTS still seems a ways off. And I don't think it is a game design issue and can't be fixed. You could argue that Terran early game allin/aggression vs Z was too strong (pre patch) and that was a game design issue. They manage to 'fixed' that with a patch. Although I do think that 'fix' has indirectly lead to some issues we are seeing now.
I don't think they have enough time to rework fungal to a total different spell, but at least they can tweak some numbers like mana cost, radius, damage, etc to see it if helps. I mean all they did with the Queen was give it 2 range on its ground attack and look at the meta game shift.
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On November 07 2012 01:48 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:39 Seiniyta wrote:On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote:
How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job. You never fail to amuse me with your endless negativity. And if you actually would read the fucking interview you'd probably also have read that they are aware there's an issue with some matchup's. Especially in ZvP. However they also remark that across tournaments and the ladder the races that win seem pretty balanced. And any statistical prove that people are leaving SC2 to watch LoL? there was a small event not too long ago in Sweden which drew about 100k viewers fro SC2 which is a ton. Even the last MLG was doing quite well. Everyone knows that, that has been standard Blizzard response since ever. And that kind of reasoning is retarded. According to that reasoning, Zergs having a 100% unloseable lategame would be perfectly balanced as long as a Terran 11 / 11 rax has a 50% win rate at the highest level. Tic-tac-toe is pretty balanced too, is it fun to watch?
I wonder how they include tournament data? Do they have a guy that incorporates tournament wins into their system? By which criterion do they select these tournaments? Do they use TLPD?
The easiest way for them is probably to just use ladder data (and occasionally take a glance at GSL/MLG winrates). And that seems to be a pretty bad way to look at it. And I'm not exactly a statistics expert, but I think there is a problem trying to expose balance flaws with this approach, when the matchmaking aims to generate even matches regardless of race.
I think that is what many pros are trying to say. You shouldn't argue balance with empirical data (that only include results), but need to argue constructively in terms of the game elements and how they relate to each other.
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On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote:
How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
The on sc2 players switching are players who haven't had results in a year or never. I do agree that they still need to change some stuff would be extremely nice.
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We are hoping to avoid directly nerfing Infestors.
They should directly nerf Infestors 
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This is so goddamn disgusting, all the wait for something to happen and he just sprouts out a load of crap like that..
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On November 07 2012 01:42 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:32 Cheekio wrote:
That translation hints at possible Swarm Host buffs, which seems completely out of left field. I absolutely love having an option to control the pace of the game as zerg, but I can't imagine where they're getting their data from if fungal growth isn't on the chopping block and the issues with vipers aren't being looked at.
Fungal growth has been getting a ton of flak at all levels of play, and blinding cloud in vT and vP is programmed to be ineffective vs anything that's not a tank or a structure. Units have melee range under the cloud, so the pathing AI simply tells them to walk to attack distance- which is out from under the cloud. You end up auto-splitting an enemy's marines for him. Doesnt it seem like 70% of there buffs or nerfs are out of left field? I think the most common post after any patch is "was that even an issue?"
I respectfully disagree. Within the past few months, Blizzard has done an excellent job of listening to the pro and ladder community, and when the oracle was being redesigned, you could see Browder and Kim reading and posting the the battle.net forums for hour a day (usually weekday afternoons between about 2 and 6). They've been quiet for about 3 days and that's abnormal compared to the level of community involvement they've been showing lately.
A lot of left-field patches were seen in the WoL beta, and sometimes in the WoL retail, but by early beta HotS was marked by significant community involvement. If you look at the game design that was mentioned in HotS alpha interviews, you can see they needed the live feedback and have done significantly better with their game design because of it.
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So they saw Thorzain abuse thors in tvp and nerfed it immediately...saw warp in ht to be op...saw mass ghosts owning up late game tvz...but when it comes to zerg they need more time? How much time do they need to realize how stupid bl/infestor is getting....this has been going on for at least 2 months
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On November 07 2012 02:08 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote:
How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job. The on sc2 players switching are players who haven't had results in a year or never. I do agree that they still need to change some stuff would be extremely nice.
I think he is talking about the viewers and not the players. Players are much much more invested in a game and don't change just because another game gets popular. Viewers, however, are not as invested. If the gameplay of a game becomes 'stale', you will start to lose viewers. And as the viewership goes, so do the sponsors which is the financial backbone. Why do you think WC3 is still viable in China but not the rest of the world? It is because some Chinese players got to be the best players in the world and got a huge following in China. Therefore, sponsors are willing to sponsor tournaments and thus a viable pro scene.
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We saw a video posted by a foreign progamer comparing the Carriers from BW and WoL. We believe that we could use some of the suggestions provided in this video.
YESSSS!!! Go Nony! If they actually implemented changes based on that, I would be estatic
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On November 07 2012 02:01 avilo wrote:
Speechless. How can they still be in denial that there is a not a problem with brood/infestor?
Both Terran and Protoss have nothing solid against broodlord/infestor in the lategame, and brood/infestor is literally the best option Zerg has right now which is bad too.
If it's Zerg VS Protoss/Terran, and the Zerg knows how to abuse massing literally 20+ infestors, broodlords, and spine crawlers, if both players are the same skill, or even in some cases the Zerg lower skill level, the Zerg wins a majority of the time from the most ridiculous positions.
The stats do not mean shit if you do not put them into context. You can say a match-up is perfectly even 50/50 balance but if one race has to all-in to make that stat card something is wrong. Look at PvZ right now, 2 base sentry/immortal or die to brood/infestor turtle. TvZ is not any better, with Terran having the raven in such shabby shape compared to brood/infestor.
People really need to speak up now man, otherwise this truly just will be Zergcraft2. Every RTS that has died while brood war lived on died for one of two reasons:
a) the company stopped supporting the game due to forcing development teams onto other projects, or just did not want to spend money into supporting their game
b) the design team of that company stopped actively balancing the game, and when obvious and game breaking balance problems came up, they were left alone for months at a time while people slowly left the game.
It's obvious blizzard is not going to stop supporting the games, and they are working hard and have passion...so that leaves option b...balance the damn game!
When a strategy is so good, too good, to the point that it is the single best thing to do...it needs to be nerfed. I think myself and other people do not understand blizzard when they knee jerk nerf ghosts because they "did not want them massed" but later when infestors are showing they can do even more than ghosts ever could TvZ they leave them alone for months at a time.
So speak up now people! Unless you truly enjoy the current spectacle. Because guess what? All that drama about the "game dying" etc etc, at it's core has nothing to do with dick picks, talk shows, or casuals. It has to do with the gameplay.
I've been telling people the last few weeks: Spectators are not stupid. People are going to start to catch on that "oh, so every game this happens? Same thing? Infestor broodlord? Every match-up?" When it comes down to it, if the gameplay is suffering from a balance issue spectators WILL take notice. And they WILL leave if it becomes too obvious there's a problem.
Agree, I´m only a spectator, used to play some as zerg. But right now it´s getting really boring to watch, Tired of seeing unit comps of mass infestor + BL. And other things.
You barely need commentators anymore, "Well the zerg is opening with hatch first and will transition into lair, infestation pit, spire, hive and broodlord. Let´s sit back and enjoy"
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On November 07 2012 02:14 .kv wrote:
So they saw Thorzain abuse thors in tvp and nerfed it immediately...saw warp in ht to be op...saw mass ghosts owning up late game tvz...but when it comes to zerg they need more time? How much time do they need to realize how stupid bl/infestor is getting....this has been going on for at least 2 months
6+ months* but who's counting. But yes, the inconsistency has been quite blatant.
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Agree with Avilo for most part.
1. Yeah, win rates can be 50/50, but if one race is keeping it even by all-inning or hitting timing almost every time, it's not really a wholesome 50/50 is it?
2. Spectators aren't stupid, and simplicity isn't a formula for a good game; it never has been. You can't easily attract casuals to an in-depth strategy game so why are they trying to? LoL has a lot more going on in my opinion than SC2 in a single game since there are a lot more players in different locations on the map. All of the effects and abilities in LoL, and the extremely high numbers of characters to choose from would seem at first look to be more confusing than the same 12 units for each race duking it out in SC2.
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On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote:
How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job.
Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
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Its shit like this why people say they have no faith in blizzard.
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On November 07 2012 02:18 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote:
How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job. Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale...
How about maybe his thinking about the potential in sc2, it could stay even bigger than it is now with proper care, and about the terran players whom put a TON of time into this game trying to earn something from it and are nearly getting nothing in return right now, seems that another terran player just retired on top of the hundred that already quit.
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On November 07 2012 01:35 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:02 wwowz wrote:
I don't think it's not that bad neither Is this a triple negative? 
Woops 
I was rushing this translation heheh
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Jesus Christ, David Kim is blowing off all legitimate criticisms of Zerg late-game like they're nothing. Way to not give a flying fuck. He better have some damn good ideas of how to buff everything else if Blizzard isn't going to touch fungal.
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On November 07 2012 02:22 Satiinifi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 02:18 rd wrote:On November 07 2012 01:26 aTnClouD wrote:
How can he think the game is fine when people are leaving SC2 to watch League of Legends? There are serious issues that are shrinking the amount of people interested in the game and watching tournaments and all he can say is that the winrates and race distributions are fine. The incompetence and arrogance shown by David Kim make speechless every time. Seriously he's so bad at his job. Nothing Blizzard can do will prevent the inevitable decline of the SC2 player base, rather stem it with content for as long as they can. Which they are. The issues are serious but not nearly as bad as you exaggerate them to be. SC2 is thriving and will be for a long time. LoL will die at some point too. The LoL and SC2 comparisons are getting really stale... How about maybe his thinking about the potential in sc2, it could stay even bigger than it is now with proper care, and about the terran players whom put a TON of time into this game trying to earn something from it and are nearly getting nothing in return right now, seems that another terran player just retired on top of the hundred that already quit.
Are you implying that 100 pro terrans have quit?
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EPT
