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Active: 1482 users

Slayers to disband - Page 80

Forum Index > SC2 General
4170 CommentsPost a Reply
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Bashing of any sort will result in temp bans.
sihyunie
Profile Joined June 2008
United States108 Posts
October 17 2012 20:24 GMT
#1581
On October 18 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 05:19 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


The same is true when it become ESF. An association can and often does prevent its members from interacting with outside teams. It's not like some KHL team can practice with NHL team without league approval. In this case it sounds wrong but that's usually one of the perk of entering an association.

Except it did not became eSF. There was a big gap in the middle where there was no organization, after FXO pulled out..
On October 18 2012 05:18 Wuster wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


Let's not forget whey SC2Con fell apart. Someone tried something shady with FXO (forget what exactly).

*And* they tried to penalize TSL because FruitDealer and Tester made up some crap to get off the team (and join Coach Won's team... surprise, surprise).

So I don't know how people expected eSF to be any different from SC2Con when it was run by the same guy.

BoSs confirmed that it wasn't lead by the same guy. Check the comments in this thread earlier.


No idea what happened during that time but that has nothing to do with the original question, which was how "ESF have power to regulate an independent team (Slayers)". The answer is that ESF did not regulate Slayers, but all its own team, which they do have power to.


So he decides to regulate eSF teams because Slayers played by itself? Sounds like someone was jealous of attention Slayers was getting and intentionally tried to get in the way of their success. Not having practice partners is a big deal in this field. It is quite detrimental to players' performance!
Wounded31
Profile Joined October 2011
124 Posts
October 17 2012 20:25 GMT
#1582
Wow..I thought things were going bad for them but didnt expect them to disband. This sucks
MKP!
farnham
Profile Joined January 2011
1378 Posts
October 17 2012 20:26 GMT
#1583
After looking at the situation it hurts me that slayers is fading away and not the other esf teams, especially startale
essencez
Profile Joined February 2012
342 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 20:28:44
October 17 2012 20:26 GMT
#1584
On October 18 2012 05:19 Waxangel wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

HEre ya go: LG-IM Coach Hirai explains his side of the Ganzi/SlayerS ordeal. It's not really too important in the big picture of what Jessica is saying, but it's somewhat relevant since she brings it up as the beginning of poor S2con/eSF vs SlayerS relations.

http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=48786

Before I start, I would like to say I apologize for worrying everyone with the bad news. Also, I admit that the team environment on IM was not good right after the team was founded.

Because I was running an amateur StarCraft 1 house before I founded the StarCraft 2 team, about half of the players at the house were still playing StarCraft 1 at first. Also, there were some members who were paying a fee to stay in the house [Note: Common amateur SC1/SC2 house practice. At present, a team cannot receive a membership fee from its players if they wish to be recognized as a pro-team by eSF or GomTV]. However, I could not just kick out all the SC1 players because I started running a SC2 team.

Thus, I gave the amateur SC1 players a certain amount of time so that they could either join a pro-team or move to another house. So during this period, it's true that every day life and the practice environment weren't that good. Also, it was a period where funds were lacking, and the team was being run in a very difficult situation. Some of the players even came to me and offered 50,000 won, 100,000 won ($45~90) for the food budget. I want it to be clear that this was the situation.

In October of 2010, not long after the team was formed, I saw Mvp and Ganzi talking. Ganzi had only played SC2 for about one or two days. There was one seat left in the house, and the SC1 amateurs were starting to leave one by one, and there was one player I wanted to accept once I could handle an extra player. Around that time, he was one of the top level players in the business. However, I trusted Ganzi and gave him that spot. And I informed him beforehand that the team house situation wasn't very good. Ganzi told me that all he needed was a place to play, and he joined the team.

Though Ganzi had only started SC2, I knew that Ganzi had been a diligent player since he was a SC1 amateur, and I believed that he would do well alongside Mvp with time. And it was so, as he gained a lot of skill and took #1 on the ladder in 2.5~3 months.

Because he had improved so much, I wanted to give him a chance in tournaments, so I sent him out in the Danawa tournament as my 'coaches pick' player. The problem was that the night of the tournament, Ganzi suddenly said he wanted to go to SlayerS. I asked him if it was confirmed, and he said he had been informed that it was cleared.

Honestly, from my standpoint, I was very hurt. So I called then SlayerS coach Seong Sang Hoon immediately to see what was going on, and got a reply that they had never agreed to take in Ganzi. I told him that there must have been a misunderstanding, apologized, and ended the call. The next morning, Ganzi packed his things and left the house in the morning.

As he left, Ganzi didn't apologize or leave a word of thanks. The only thing he did after leaving was to contact SlayerS and said that he had left the team. And then the sent me a text. I thought maybe it would be a word of thanks or apology, but instead it was to tell me that because I had called SlayerS to check, he hadn't been able to join, and that he wanted me to clear things up.

I hadn't signed a contract with Ganzi, and it was his decision to go to a team with an environment where he thought he could play well. So it might seem a funny that I'm criticizing his decision, but I think he didn't keep proper etiquette. I had taken on a player who had only played StarCraft for a few days, and I had done things to help him, and that hurt me more. What kind of coach would have taken in a player who had only played for 2~3 days?

I think this misunderstanding became deeper because it became seen as Ganzi moving to SlayerS through shady methods. Also, while Ganzi was at the house, his complaints about the poor environment caused one or two players that I was prepared to accept to go to other teams. This I've confirmed directly from those players. Even if he doesn't bash the team directly, saying things about the team environment or negative things about the team off record, I think is an insult to the team. I don't think it was right to do those things.

Because of this, I brought up Ganzi's behavior at an S2con meeting to the other coaches. At that meeting, Mr. Lee Jun Ho (?), Mr. Won (Startale), Mr. Choi (MVP), Mr. Yoon (ZeNEX), Mr. Park (PRIME), Mr. Kim (fOu, not Choya), and Mr. Lee (TSL) were present. Also, SlayerS coach Mr. Seong was there as well.

I absolutely did not request a suspension for Ganzi there, and I never have asked for one. All I wanted to do was talk to the other teams, and make sure something like that didn't happen again. The main agenda of the day was to make rules regarding transfers, and 'protection of players between coaches.' (??). At that meeting, I told coach Seong that there would be no problem with SlayerS taking Ganzi.

But there was another hurtful event to come. Not long after, Ms. Kim Ga Yeon requested a three way talk regarding the Ganzi case, with all the team coaches and Ganzi present.

According to SlayerS and Ganzi, I had 18 SC1 players in the house, and had received 500,000 won a piece from each of them. Also, they claimed that no one practiced and just goofed off, that the environment was bad, and that I was not qualified to be a head coach.

Additionally, Ganzi was disappointed in me, and had to move to an environment where he could practice properly. That day, I first learned that Ganzi had those kind of feelings. I asked him then, why he hadn't told me those things earlier.

At that meeting, I said that I never made money running a SC1 house. I offered free spots to players who came from poor families, and there were a lot more times when I wasn't able to collect money from the other players. At that time I had 12, not 18 SC1 players in the house, and I hadn't received that much money from them. Of the players who were in bad financial situations I didn't receive any money from, while I received about 400,000 a piece from 6~7 players. Also, I received smaller sums from some of the other players.


I gave the SC1 players time to leave the house, whether it was to return to studies, find a new team house, or join a pro team. If you ask those players now, they will all confirm it as well. Some of them I even called recently to make sure that was the situation at the time. After that period, there were a few players who were at the house, paying house fees.


I acknowledge that as mentioned before, because we shared the space with SC1 players, the environment wasn't the best overall, and general mood wasn't that good. And I admit that I received fees from the players. All those things contributed to a poor environment. But if he really couldn't stand staying in such an environment, I want to ask why that never reached my ears.

Also, I checked Ms. Kim's prepared chatlogs about Ganzi saying negative things about the house, and it was all things that could be easily misunderstood. I personally think that telling a player planning to come to our house to choose carefully, telling him about the environment directly led to him choosing a different team. On this part, even Boxer (who was at the meeting) said it was something that could be misunderstood. All of this was witnessed by the coahes there.

I clearly admitted the things that I should have, and did not object at all to Ganzi going to SlayerS. That was the conclusion of the day. I never asked for a suspension for Ganzi, and I don't believe I have any reason to be sorry to Ganzi even now. Nor do I have any reason to be sorry to SlayerS, who acquired a teamlessGnaiz. This is simply a problem between Ganzi and myself.

Also, it's a misunderstanding that this was start of s2con coaches grouping together to criticize or hate SlayerS, and relations continued afterward. I just hoped that something similar to the Ganzi case wouldn't happen to other teams.

To the end, there's no apology or thanks for Ganzi. Maybe this all happened because no one wanted to speak frankly. Hearing Ganzi say that I was not qualified to be a coach and that the team environment was a mess gave me the motivation to make things better, and it was a turning point for me.

Honestly, I don't know who was the 'victim.' I was hurt at that meeting in front of everyone, and I even considered quitting this business. I'm thankful to my players who stayed on through those bad conditions until now, and I will work even harder for them. I want to do more for my players in the future.

That is all I have to say about Coach Kim's allegations about Ganzi, IM, and SlayerS.



<3. Mr Won's reply next =D?
essence.gg - "Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better." - Samuel Beckett
MCXD
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Australia2738 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 20:26:25
October 17 2012 20:26 GMT
#1585
Couldn't SlayerS just have striken a deal with the KeSPA teams to practice with them?

Ding ding.
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
October 17 2012 20:26 GMT
#1586
On October 18 2012 05:23 achan1058 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:19 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


The same is true when it become ESF. An association can and often does prevent its members from interacting with outside teams. It's not like some KHL team can practice with NHL team without league approval. In this case it sounds wrong but that's usually one of the perk of entering an association.

Except it did not became eSF. There was a big gap in the middle where there was no organization, after FXO pulled out..
On October 18 2012 05:18 Wuster wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


Let's not forget whey SC2Con fell apart. Someone tried something shady with FXO (forget what exactly).

*And* they tried to penalize TSL because FruitDealer and Tester made up some crap to get off the team (and join Coach Won's team... surprise, surprise).

So I don't know how people expected eSF to be any different from SC2Con when it was run by the same guy.

BoSs confirmed that it wasn't lead by the same guy. Check the comments in this thread earlier.


No idea what happened during that time but that has nothing to do with the original question, which was how "ESF have power to regulate an independent team (Slayers)". The answer is that ESF did not regulate Slayers, but all its own team, which they do have power to.

That was not my question. My question was, did the embargo continued after SC2con fell apart.


I was replaying to sihyunie's post. I have no idea (nor does anyone else since this info just came out today) regarding what you asked. I just thought you meant what is the situation with ESF.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
mikedebo
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada4341 Posts
October 17 2012 20:26 GMT
#1587
Pure theorycrafting ahead:

If I had $1000 bucks or something if I got my guess right, this is what I was presume

- Boxer & Jessica form team
- There is tension between Jessica and the players -- whether because it's her personality or whatever, it exists
- Boxer has to take Jessica's side because, like, they're married. Maybe he even really is on her side.
- Players sign on to be mentored by Boxer, don't account for having to deal with his wife as part of the package
- Players get frustrated at Jessica's authority (possibly the perceived misuse of that authority) and start acting out against both of them
- Boxer is caught between a rock and a hard place and is so stressed out that he actually quits the team he founded

I read Boxer's bio and I regard him as an incredibly strong and incredibly ethical person, but he's never had someone along for the ride before. I was shocked beyond belief when I heard he'd quit his team. I could have seen him _dissolving_ the team, but not leaving it while someone else was in charge.

Something similar to this happened to the band Sepultura in the 90s, one of the most fucking ultimate metal acts of life. The lead singer's wife got involved in management of the band, and whether she was good at it or not, it created a lot of tension and voila, they split. gg

</theorycraft>
I NEED A PHOTOSYNTHESIS! ||| 'airtoss' is an anagram of 'artosis' ||| SANGHOOOOOO ||| "No Korea? No problem. I have internet." -- Stardust
blamekilly
Profile Joined April 2011
466 Posts
October 17 2012 20:26 GMT
#1588
Man I always thought it was weird that players stopped thanking SlayerS player for practicing with them. This started about a year ago but it never really crossed my mind that eSF were blacklisting SlayerS . I was really surprised to see MC thank MMA for practicing with him after he left OGS to join SK.

eSF is bad.
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28483 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 20:27:35
October 17 2012 20:27 GMT
#1589
On October 18 2012 05:24 sihyunie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:19 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


The same is true when it become ESF. An association can and often does prevent its members from interacting with outside teams. It's not like some KHL team can practice with NHL team without league approval. In this case it sounds wrong but that's usually one of the perk of entering an association.

Except it did not became eSF. There was a big gap in the middle where there was no organization, after FXO pulled out..
On October 18 2012 05:18 Wuster wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


Let's not forget whey SC2Con fell apart. Someone tried something shady with FXO (forget what exactly).

*And* they tried to penalize TSL because FruitDealer and Tester made up some crap to get off the team (and join Coach Won's team... surprise, surprise).

So I don't know how people expected eSF to be any different from SC2Con when it was run by the same guy.

BoSs confirmed that it wasn't lead by the same guy. Check the comments in this thread earlier.


No idea what happened during that time but that has nothing to do with the original question, which was how "ESF have power to regulate an independent team (Slayers)". The answer is that ESF did not regulate Slayers, but all its own team, which they do have power to.


So he decides to regulate eSF teams because Slayers played by itself? Sounds like someone was jealous of attention Slayers was getting and intentionally tried to get in the way of their success. Not having practice partners is a big deal in this field. It is quite detrimental to players' performance!


And prohibiting friends to play together. Imagine Liquid telling Ret not to practice with Demuslim.
I Protoss winner, could it be?
farnham
Profile Joined January 2011
1378 Posts
October 17 2012 20:27 GMT
#1590
On October 18 2012 05:24 sihyunie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:19 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


The same is true when it become ESF. An association can and often does prevent its members from interacting with outside teams. It's not like some KHL team can practice with NHL team without league approval. In this case it sounds wrong but that's usually one of the perk of entering an association.

Except it did not became eSF. There was a big gap in the middle where there was no organization, after FXO pulled out..
On October 18 2012 05:18 Wuster wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:Jessica explains how hard it was to get a terran practice partner for ryung because the other pkayers had schedules and they asked mvp but they declined due to said reason
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


Let's not forget whey SC2Con fell apart. Someone tried something shady with FXO (forget what exactly).

*And* they tried to penalize TSL because FruitDealer and Tester made up some crap to get off the team (and join Coach Won's team... surprise, surprise).

So I don't know how people expected eSF to be any different from SC2Con when it was run by the same guy.

BoSs confirmed that it wasn't lead by the same guy. Check the comments in this thread earlier.


No idea what happened during that time but that has nothing to do with the original question, which was how "ESF have power to regulate an independent team (Slayers)". The answer is that ESF did not regulate Slayers, but all its own team, which they do have power to.


So he decides to regulate eSF teams because Slayers played by itself? Sounds like someone was jealous of attention Slayers was getting and intentionally tried to get in the way of their success. Not having practice partners is a big deal in this field. It is quite detrimental to players' performance!

ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
October 17 2012 20:27 GMT
#1591
On October 18 2012 05:24 sihyunie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2012 05:21 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:19 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:17 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


The same is true when it become ESF. An association can and often does prevent its members from interacting with outside teams. It's not like some KHL team can practice with NHL team without league approval. In this case it sounds wrong but that's usually one of the perk of entering an association.

Except it did not became eSF. There was a big gap in the middle where there was no organization, after FXO pulled out..
On October 18 2012 05:18 Wuster wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:14 achan1058 wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:12 ragz_gt wrote:
On October 18 2012 05:08 sihyunie wrote:
In the Fomos article, he basically admits to preventing eSF players from practicing with Slayers players. He said that at that time, Slayers was playing by itself and there needed to be some regulation.

WTF???
How can eSF have regulation on an independent team??? What right does it have to segregate the team because it didn't follow what it wanted to do???? Mr. Won basically is showing why Slayers didn't want to deal with eSF!


Well, he didn't regulate Slayers, he regulated other teams in SC2Con, which he had every rights to. It was still a douche bag move, but it's pretty common for an association to limit interaction with outside teams.

Except SC2Con fell apart soon after that. What happened to the embargo afterwards?


Let's not forget whey SC2Con fell apart. Someone tried something shady with FXO (forget what exactly).

*And* they tried to penalize TSL because FruitDealer and Tester made up some crap to get off the team (and join Coach Won's team... surprise, surprise).

So I don't know how people expected eSF to be any different from SC2Con when it was run by the same guy.

BoSs confirmed that it wasn't lead by the same guy. Check the comments in this thread earlier.


No idea what happened during that time but that has nothing to do with the original question, which was how "ESF have power to regulate an independent team (Slayers)". The answer is that ESF did not regulate Slayers, but all its own team, which they do have power to.


So he decides to regulate eSF teams because Slayers played by itself? Sounds like someone was jealous of attention Slayers was getting and intentionally tried to get in the way of their success. Not having practice partners is a big deal in this field. It is quite detrimental to players' performance!


I agree it's bad for Slayers. But your question was how he had power to, which I explained, and not was he right to do so, which I agree was not.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
rkshox
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Taiwan536 Posts
October 17 2012 20:27 GMT
#1592
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 18 2012 05:19 Waxangel wrote:
HEre ya go: LG-IM Coach Hirai explains his side of the Ganzi/SlayerS ordeal. It's not really too important in the big picture of what Jessica is saying, but it's somewhat relevant since she brings it up as the beginning of poor S2con/eSF vs SlayerS relations.

http://www.inven.co.kr/webzine/news/?news=48786

Before I start, I would like to say I apologize for worrying everyone with the bad news. Also, I admit that the team environment on IM was not good right after the team was founded.

Because I was running an amateur StarCraft 1 house before I founded the StarCraft 2 team, about half of the players at the house were still playing StarCraft 1 at first. Also, there were some members who were paying a fee to stay in the house [Note: Common amateur SC1/SC2 house practice. At present, a team cannot receive a membership fee from its players if they wish to be recognized as a pro-team by eSF or GomTV]. However, I could not just kick out all the SC1 players because I started running a SC2 team.

Thus, I gave the amateur SC1 players a certain amount of time so that they could either join a pro-team or move to another house. So during this period, it's true that every day life and the practice environment weren't that good. Also, it was a period where funds were lacking, and the team was being run in a very difficult situation. Some of the players even came to me and offered 50,000 won, 100,000 won ($45~90) for the food budget. I want it to be clear that this was the situation.

In October of 2010, not long after the team was formed, I saw Mvp and Ganzi talking. Ganzi had only played SC2 for about one or two days. There was one seat left in the house, and the SC1 amateurs were starting to leave one by one, and there was one player I wanted to accept once I could handle an extra player. Around that time, he was one of the top level players in the business. However, I trusted Ganzi and gave him that spot. And I informed him beforehand that the team house situation wasn't very good. Ganzi told me that all he needed was a place to play, and he joined the team.

Though Ganzi had only started SC2, I knew that Ganzi had been a diligent player since he was a SC1 amateur, and I believed that he would do well alongside Mvp with time. And it was so, as he gained a lot of skill and took #1 on the ladder in 2.5~3 months.

Because he had improved so much, I wanted to give him a chance in tournaments, so I sent him out in the Danawa tournament as my 'coaches pick' player. The problem was that the night of the tournament, Ganzi suddenly said he wanted to go to SlayerS. I asked him if it was confirmed, and he said he had been informed that it was cleared.

Honestly, from my standpoint, I was very hurt. So I called then SlayerS coach Seong Sang Hoon immediately to see what was going on, and got a reply that they had never agreed to take in Ganzi. I told him that there must have been a misunderstanding, apologized, and ended the call. The next morning, Ganzi packed his things and left the house in the morning.

As he left, Ganzi didn't apologize or leave a word of thanks. The only thing he did after leaving was to contact SlayerS and said that he had left the team. And then the sent me a text. I thought maybe it would be a word of thanks or apology, but instead it was to tell me that because I had called SlayerS to check, he hadn't been able to join, and that he wanted me to clear things up.

I hadn't signed a contract with Ganzi, and it was his decision to go to a team with an environment where he thought he could play well. So it might seem a funny that I'm criticizing his decision, but I think he didn't keep proper etiquette. I had taken on a player who had only played StarCraft for a few days, and I had done things to help him, and that hurt me more. What kind of coach would have taken in a player who had only played for 2~3 days?

I think this misunderstanding became deeper because it became seen as Ganzi moving to SlayerS through shady methods. Also, while Ganzi was at the house, his complaints about the poor environment caused one or two players that I was prepared to accept to go to other teams. This I've confirmed directly from those players. Even if he doesn't bash the team directly, saying things about the team environment or negative things about the team off record, I think is an insult to the team. I don't think it was right to do those things.

Because of this, I brought up Ganzi's behavior at an S2con meeting to the other coaches. At that meeting, Mr. Lee Jun Ho (?), Mr. Won (Startale), Mr. Choi (MVP), Mr. Yoon (ZeNEX), Mr. Park (PRIME), Mr. Kim (fOu, not Choya), and Mr. Lee (TSL) were present. Also, SlayerS coach Mr. Seong was there as well.

I absolutely did not request a suspension for Ganzi there, and I never have asked for one. All I wanted to do was talk to the other teams, and make sure something like that didn't happen again. The main agenda of the day was to make rules regarding transfers, and 'protection of players between coaches.' (??). At that meeting, I told coach Seong that there would be no problem with SlayerS taking Ganzi.

But there was another hurtful event to come. Not long after, Ms. Kim Ga Yeon requested a three way talk regarding the Ganzi case, with all the team coaches and Ganzi present.

According to SlayerS and Ganzi, I had 18 SC1 players in the house, and had received 500,000 won a piece from each of them. Also, they claimed that no one practiced and just goofed off, that the environment was bad, and that I was not qualified to be a head coach.

Additionally, Ganzi was disappointed in me, and had to move to an environment where he could practice properly. That day, I first learned that Ganzi had those kind of feelings. I asked him then, why he hadn't told me those things earlier.

At that meeting, I said that I never made money running a SC1 house. I offered free spots to players who came from poor families, and there were a lot more times when I wasn't able to collect money from the other players. At that time I had 12, not 18 SC1 players in the house, and I hadn't received that much money from them. Of the players who were in bad financial situations I didn't receive any money from, while I received about 400,000 a piece from 6~7 players. Also, I received smaller sums from some of the other players.


I gave the SC1 players time to leave the house, whether it was to return to studies, find a new team house, or join a pro team. If you ask those players now, they will all confirm it as well. Some of them I even called recently to make sure that was the situation at the time. After that period, there were a few players who were at the house, paying house fees.


I acknowledge that as mentioned before, because we shared the space with SC1 players, the environment wasn't the best overall, and general mood wasn't that good. And I admit that I received fees from the players. All those things contributed to a poor environment. But if he really couldn't stand staying in such an environment, I want to ask why that never reached my ears.

Also, I checked Ms. Kim's prepared chatlogs about Ganzi saying negative things about the house, and it was all things that could be easily misunderstood. I personally think that telling a player planning to come to our house to choose carefully, telling him about the environment directly led to him choosing a different team. On this part, even Boxer (who was at the meeting) said it was something that could be misunderstood. All of this was witnessed by the coahes there.

I clearly admitted the things that I should have, and did not object at all to Ganzi going to SlayerS. That was the conclusion of the day. I never asked for a suspension for Ganzi, and I don't believe I have any reason to be sorry to Ganzi even now. Nor do I have any reason to be sorry to SlayerS, who acquired a teamlessGnaiz. This is simply a problem between Ganzi and myself.

Also, it's a misunderstanding that this was start of s2con coaches grouping together to criticize or hate SlayerS, and relations continued afterward. I just hoped that something similar to the Ganzi case wouldn't happen to other teams.

To the end, there's no apology or thanks for Ganzi. Maybe this all happened because no one wanted to speak frankly. Hearing Ganzi say that I was not qualified to be a coach and that the team environment was a mess gave me the motivation to make things better, and it was a turning point for me.

Honestly, I don't know who was the 'victim.' I was hurt at that meeting in front of everyone, and I even considered quitting this business. I'm thankful to my players who stayed on through those bad conditions until now, and I will work even harder for them. I want to do more for my players in the future.

That is all I have to say about Coach Kim's allegations about Ganzi, IM, and SlayerS.


wow thanks waxangel for the quick translation.
@ranleee /// "first we expand, then we defense it'
GoodSirTets
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada200 Posts
October 17 2012 20:27 GMT
#1593
I hope Totalbiscuit and Genna were aware of this situation when they signed Crank. From this, it seems like he may have given them a bit of a onesided tale of woe.
High Diamond/ Low Masters :^)
sorrowptoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1431 Posts
October 17 2012 20:28 GMT
#1594
First Boxer leaves the team he created. Then this. Reminds me of great moments of Esports being brought to us by SlayerS. GG.
farnham
Profile Joined January 2011
1378 Posts
October 17 2012 20:29 GMT
#1595
On October 18 2012 05:26 mikedebo wrote:
Pure theorycrafting ahead:

If I had $1000 bucks or something if I got my guess right, this is what I was presume

- Boxer & Jessica form team
- There is tension between Jessica and the players -- whether because it's her personality or whatever, it exists
- Boxer has to take Jessica's side because, like, they're married. Maybe he even really is on her side.
- Players sign on to be mentored by Boxer, don't account for having to deal with his wife as part of the package
- Players get frustrated at Jessica's authority (possibly the perceived misuse of that authority) and start acting out against both of them
- Boxer is caught between a rock and a hard place and is so stressed out that he actually quits the team he founded

I read Boxer's bio and I regard him as an incredibly strong and incredibly ethical person, but he's never had someone along for the ride before. I was shocked beyond belief when I heard he'd quit his team. I could have seen him _dissolving_ the team, but not leaving it while someone else was in charge.

Something similar to this happened to the band Sepultura in the 90s, one of the most fucking ultimate metal acts of life. The lead singer's wife got involved in management of the band, and whether she was good at it or not, it created a lot of tension and voila, they split. gg

</theorycraft>

Dude the issue is that esf blacklisted all slayers players

They had noone to practice with
Herry
Profile Joined March 2011
England681 Posts
October 17 2012 20:29 GMT
#1596
and this is why competitive anything, sports, esports whatever, should always have a governing body, who makes rules, organises team allowances and structure, makes rules on transfers, sets schedules, deals with discipline as well as player, coach or manager misconduct.

I know so many people hate Kespa because they are "evil" but it is completely necessary. having every team adhere to their own rules and players talking to other teams about joining with no official record is complete chaos. And it should never happen, i cant believe everyone involved would let this happen to such a good team.

Truth is, itz no ones fault, and everyone's, the players, managers and coaches involved all made up their own minds about what to do in any situation, and now Slayers is dead. and so many amazing players that were my favourites are now not even playing. makes me sad.
farnham
Profile Joined January 2011
1378 Posts
October 17 2012 20:30 GMT
#1597
On October 18 2012 05:26 MCXD wrote:
Couldn't SlayerS just have striken a deal with the KeSPA teams to practice with them?

Ding ding.

The embargo started december last year

Kespa wasnt even participating

When kespa came to the scene slayers was a wreck due to the embargo and already pretty much dead
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28483 Posts
October 17 2012 20:34 GMT
#1598
On October 18 2012 05:29 Herry wrote:
and this is why competitive anything, sports, esports whatever, should always have a governing body, who makes rules, organises team allowances and structure, makes rules on transfers, sets schedules, deals with discipline as well as player, coach or manager misconduct.

I know so many people hate Kespa because they are "evil" but it is completely necessary. having every team adhere to their own rules and players talking to other teams about joining with no official record is complete chaos. And it should never happen, i cant believe everyone involved would let this happen to such a good team.

Truth is, itz no ones fault, and everyone's, the players, managers and coaches involved all made up their own minds about what to do in any situation, and now Slayers is dead. and so many amazing players that were my favourites are now not even playing. makes me sad.


Like esf you mean?
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Zefa
Profile Joined May 2010
United States297 Posts
October 17 2012 20:36 GMT
#1599
On October 18 2012 05:26 mikedebo wrote:
Pure theorycrafting ahead:

If I had $1000 bucks or something if I got my guess right, this is what I was presume

- Boxer & Jessica form team
- There is tension between Jessica and the players -- whether because it's her personality or whatever, it exists
- Boxer has to take Jessica's side because, like, they're married. Maybe he even really is on her side.
- Players sign on to be mentored by Boxer, don't account for having to deal with his wife as part of the package
- Players get frustrated at Jessica's authority (possibly the perceived misuse of that authority) and start acting out against both of them
- Boxer is caught between a rock and a hard place and is so stressed out that he actually quits the team he founded

I read Boxer's bio and I regard him as an incredibly strong and incredibly ethical person, but he's never had someone along for the ride before. I was shocked beyond belief when I heard he'd quit his team. I could have seen him _dissolving_ the team, but not leaving it while someone else was in charge.

Something similar to this happened to the band Sepultura in the 90s, one of the most fucking ultimate metal acts of life. The lead singer's wife got involved in management of the band, and whether she was good at it or not, it created a lot of tension and voila, they split. gg

</theorycraft>


And I'd buy a share of you for the $1000.

I have a feeling that if it was strictly Boxer managing the team, a lot of this would not have happened. Not saying Jessica is a bad person or anything, just seems that her personality really clashes with the players' and creates unnecessary tension which snowballed into a lot of these events unfolding. Boxer leaving slayers basically was like removing the glue that held together the repelling ends of two magnets.

Again, pure speculation.
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
October 17 2012 20:36 GMT
#1600
eg curse?
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
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