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I'm not referring to anything that Destiny said, I'm just going to state my own opinions.
I've tried really hard with this game. And 'hard' is subjective, but when you're doing a postgrad in Plasma Physics and you work a part time job and go to the gym 4 times a week, there is only so much trying you can possibly do. But anyway, since I bought the game in January, I have only amassed just under 300 games total. There is no feature in this game that makes me want to play consistently and that is why my highest league placement in 1v1 is Gold. Not because I'm bad at the game (can be argued obviously) but because I simple don't play enough.
Why don't I play enough? In WC3 it always began with a glhf or 'hi'. Then after the first engagement, the flaming or friendly banter begins. However negative or positive each player was, you got the most out of the social aspect of the game (which is a large part). In SC2 however, players aren't motived to usher a single word to each other. We just grind out our brainless BO's from TL, win/lose and leave. The only exception is when you get cannon rushed or cheesed for the 7th time and you can't take it anymore. Chat channels like team liquid are full of retards and whiner who only know how to spout memes like 'DO YOU EVEN LIFT?!' or just flaming each other. Other times they balance whine or shut down a newbie P/Z player asking for help with 'BL/INFESTOR BL/INFESTOR!!' 'FFE IMMORTAL SENTRY 200 COLLOSI ARCHON STALKER AMOVE!!11'. There is no room for discussion in this community.
The social aspect of the game doesn't get any better when you realise there are no more Terrans on Bnet and you've just had to deal with your 5th ZvZ in a row. But still you don't care enough to say anything in chat. You just grind out the BO and then leave. Any deviation or spark of ingenuity gets you killed. A zerg like me can macro perfectly for 15minutes (against his wishes since he would prefer to go back n forth all game) just to lose his 200/200 army to a death ball in a single engagement. No gratification at all and not a single word from the other player. Its like playing against a robot who kicks your ass and then throws you out of the game because you are garbage for him to bother with.
Its a slimy and disgusting way to play a game.
And that is why many people would rather watch than play. But what is the point of a game where it is better to be watched than play? Always players will move on to a 'better' game with more gratification. Its like CoD:MW3.. A pretty brainless shooter when you compare it to giants like DOOM and Unreal Tournament, but you are rewarded simply for playing. Even if you were terrible at day 1, playing up to day 10 means you have leveled the playing field a little through upgrades and leveling. Always, there is always someone in the game willing to talk with you (if not to flame you).
Why is SC2 a barren wasteland? Why does the community not give up its xenophobic and oppressive behaviour? Why are there no more Terrans on Ladder? Why does HoTS look so terrible? Why are MU's so stale and 1 dimensional?
All the above questions and more can be attritubuted to whatever crisis is going on in SC2 at the moment. Its a damn shame that anyone wanting to address these issues gets called a trouble maker and is immediately scapegoated.
Just my thoughts.
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i cant believe this topic is still up on first page...
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On November 06 2012 22:56 Destro wrote:
starcraft isn't dead, but the way this community acts, i wouldn't mind a downsizing at all.
im guessing most people havent been in many gaming communities before. I have fond memories playing games with 1/100th of player bases. the smaller communities were always better.. less trolls, less whiners. the problem with this thread is the ridiculousness of calling a game dead because it has X players. Really, theres nothing wrong with smaller numbers. i welcome it. This is just destiny crying that he cant play video games and act like an idiot on his webcam for money anymore.
Wanna know what kills this game? shit like this. oh and tweeting your dick. my .02
Thats only true if you just look at the game and think "do I want to play that". While this is certainly true for you (less trolls, less whiners,...), its bad for the professional scene because it scares away sponsors.
I dont care if there are 100 or 1000000 XCom:EU players out there. It doesnt influence me when im playing the game.
But now try to consider GSL, MLG, NASL,... dont you think there is a difference for them (and the players) if there are 100 viewers or 1000000? Do you think the just shrug it of and say "ah better 100 hardcore fans than 1000000 whiners, trolls,... a small viewership is much better!" ?
When "we" say SC2 is on the way down, nobody tries to show you how bad the game is and how wrong you are still enjoying a bad game but viewership is stagnating at best. And if it starts to dwindle, many professional players will have to look out for another game or get a "regular" job, thus thinning out the competitive scene.
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On November 06 2012 22:56 Destro wrote:
starcraft isn't dead, but the way this community acts, i wouldn't mind a downsizing at all.
im guessing most people havent been in many gaming communities before. I have fond memories playing games with 1/100th of player bases. the smaller communities were always better.. less trolls, less whiners. the problem with this thread is the ridiculousness of calling a game dead because it has X players. Really, theres nothing wrong with smaller numbers. i welcome it. This is just destiny crying that he cant play video games and act like an idiot on his webcam for money anymore.
Wanna know what kills this game? shit like this. oh and tweeting your dick. my .02
The problem of a smaller community is that there is a smaller community. That means less people watching which means less incentive for advertisers, and with games like LoL which hit a lot of the same demographics, but hit a higher number of that demographic, then which is a sponsor going to go for?
Sure you can get a nicer community because there's less trolls etc etc, but it's not sustainable as an industry. Also, the other thing about a smaller community is less diversity, whether that's a pro or a con depends on your perspective.
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On November 06 2012 23:13 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 22:56 Destro wrote:
starcraft isn't dead, but the way this community acts, i wouldn't mind a downsizing at all.
im guessing most people havent been in many gaming communities before. I have fond memories playing games with 1/100th of player bases. the smaller communities were always better.. less trolls, less whiners. the problem with this thread is the ridiculousness of calling a game dead because it has X players. Really, theres nothing wrong with smaller numbers. i welcome it. This is just destiny crying that he cant play video games and act like an idiot on his webcam for money anymore.
Wanna know what kills this game? shit like this. oh and tweeting your dick. my .02 Thats only true if you just look at the game and think "do I want to play that". While this is certainly true for you (less trolls, less whiners,...), its bad for the professional scene because it scares away sponsors. I dont care if there are 100 or 1000000 XCom:EU players out there. It doesnt influence me when im playing the game. But now try to consider GSL, MLG, NASL,... dont you think there is a difference for them (and the players) if there are 100 viewers or 1000000? Do you think the just shrug it of and say "ah better 100 hardcore fans than 1000000 whiners, trolls,... a small viewership is much better!" ? When "we" say SC2 is on the way down, nobody tries to show you how bad the game is and how wrong you are still enjoying a bad game but viewership is stagnating at best. And if it starts to dwindle, many professional players will have to look out for another game or get a "regular" job, thus thinning out the competitive scene.
I don't care if someone is playing for 100k or a mousepad. a good game is a good game to me. Theres this unspoken hivemind drive to push esports as the greatest sport in the world or something. Its played in huge venues around the world for thousands of dollars. Congrats, we did it.
Thinning out the professional scene isnt a bad idea either. Frankily, people should be playing for the enjoyment, not the money. Call me a purist, but the love of the game and enjoyment of watching top level games is enough for me.
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On November 06 2012 22:59 NarAliya wrote:
I'm not referring to anything that Destiny said, I'm just going to state my own opinions.
I've tried really hard with this game. And 'hard' is subjective, but when you're doing a postgrad in Plasma Physics and you work a part time job and go to the gym 4 times a week, there is only so much trying you can possibly do. But anyway, since I bought the game in January, I have only amassed just under 300 games total. There is no feature in this game that makes me want to play consistently and that is why my highest league placement in 1v1 is Gold. Not because I'm bad at the game (can be argued obviously) but because I simple don't play enough.
Why don't I play enough? In WC3 it always began with a glhf or 'hi'. Then after the first engagement, the flaming or friendly banter begins. However negative or positive each player was, you got the most out of the social aspect of the game (which is a large part). In SC2 however, players aren't motived to usher a single word to each other. We just grind out our brainless BO's from TL, win/lose and leave. The only exception is when you get cannon rushed or cheesed for the 7th time and you can't take it anymore. Chat channels like team liquid are full of retards and whiner who only know how to spout memes like 'DO YOU EVEN LIFT?!' or just flaming each other. Other times they balance whine or shut down a newbie P/Z player asking for help with 'BL/INFESTOR BL/INFESTOR!!' 'FFE IMMORTAL SENTRY 200 COLLOSI ARCHON STALKER AMOVE!!11'. There is no room for discussion in this community.
The social aspect of the game doesn't get any better when you realise there are no more Terrans on Bnet and you've just had to deal with your 5th ZvZ in a row. But still you don't care enough to say anything in chat. You just grind out the BO and then leave. Any deviation or spark of ingenuity gets you killed. A zerg like me can macro perfectly for 15minutes (against his wishes since he would prefer to go back n forth all game) just to lose his 200/200 army to a death ball in a single engagement. No gratification at all and not a single word from the other player. Its like playing against a robot who kicks your ass and then throws you out of the game because you are garbage for him to bother with.
Its a slimy and disgusting way to play a game.
And that is why many people would rather watch than play. But what is the point of a game where it is better to be watched than play? Always players will move on to a 'better' game with more gratification. Its like CoD:MW3.. A pretty brainless shooter when you compare it to giants like DOOM and Unreal Tournament, but you are rewarded simply for playing. Even if you were terrible at day 1, playing up to day 10 means you have leveled the playing field a little through upgrades and leveling. Always, there is always someone in the game willing to talk with you (if not to flame you).
Why is SC2 a barren wasteland? Why does the community not give up its xenophobic and oppressive behaviour? Why are there no more Terrans on Ladder? Why does HoTS look so terrible? Why are MU's so stale and 1 dimensional?
All the above questions and more can be attritubuted to whatever crisis is going on in SC2 at the moment. Its a damn shame that anyone wanting to address these issues gets called a trouble maker and is immediately scapegoated.
Just my thoughts.
It's Day[9]'s fault!
ofc not personally (Also, i like him just as much as the next guy, this is no flaming).
But the sc2 scene was immediately poisoned by fix ideas of "training" and "improving", "be a better gamer" etc and while there certainly are lots of people far below pro level that DO enjoy this, it creates a competitive aura among the casuals of a game . I started playing with a group of friends, we were 5. 2 soon dropped because of this attitude, it was far too mentally taxing trying to play well all the time. I also quit quite a while after that.
(The other 2 got to high/low masters and where cool doods)
Now i started playing again, only for fun. i do stupid builds, i have NO memorized build orders, i play around. It's really fun. The kicker is this:
Everyone one else at "my level" are tryhards, they play their best. when i fool around i'm on even terms. If i decide to play one game serious, i CRUSH my opponent 100%. I love that. Normal games are playgrounds, i don't stress much, and i have the constant ego booster that if I wanted to, I could straight up murder the n00b im facing. hardly any stress, not much bitterness (except blind 1base allins when i eco cheese, still hate that), great. I can also smacktalk all i want while playing as i dont need to focus to perform on even terms with my opponents.
Imagine if more people played the game like that. More talk, less frustration, more fun, the knowledge that the matchmaking system WILL put you up against a sorry noob who you can kill with one hand on your balls, the never-gets-old excuse of "ya you won cuz i's not serisou LAL" etc.
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On November 06 2012 23:26 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 23:13 Charon1979 wrote:On November 06 2012 22:56 Destro wrote:
starcraft isn't dead, but the way this community acts, i wouldn't mind a downsizing at all.
im guessing most people havent been in many gaming communities before. I have fond memories playing games with 1/100th of player bases. the smaller communities were always better.. less trolls, less whiners. the problem with this thread is the ridiculousness of calling a game dead because it has X players. Really, theres nothing wrong with smaller numbers. i welcome it. This is just destiny crying that he cant play video games and act like an idiot on his webcam for money anymore.
Wanna know what kills this game? shit like this. oh and tweeting your dick. my .02 Thats only true if you just look at the game and think "do I want to play that". While this is certainly true for you (less trolls, less whiners,...), its bad for the professional scene because it scares away sponsors. I dont care if there are 100 or 1000000 XCom:EU players out there. It doesnt influence me when im playing the game. But now try to consider GSL, MLG, NASL,... dont you think there is a difference for them (and the players) if there are 100 viewers or 1000000? Do you think the just shrug it of and say "ah better 100 hardcore fans than 1000000 whiners, trolls,... a small viewership is much better!" ? When "we" say SC2 is on the way down, nobody tries to show you how bad the game is and how wrong you are still enjoying a bad game but viewership is stagnating at best. And if it starts to dwindle, many professional players will have to look out for another game or get a "regular" job, thus thinning out the competitive scene. I don't care if someone is playing for 100k or a mousepad. a good game is a good game to me. Theres this unspoken hivemind drive to push esports as the greatest sport in the world or something. Its played in huge venues around the world for thousands of dollars. Congrats, we did it. Thinning out the professional scene isnt a bad idea either. Frankily, people should be playing for the enjoyment, not the money. Call me a purist, but the love of the game and enjoyment of watching top level games is enough for me.
The problem is, when there's no sustainable money involved you simply won't see top level games. You see amazing games because players devote 10+ hours a day to practising, something that's completely impossible if they're also working full time or going to school full time.
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On November 06 2012 22:59 NarAliya wrote:
I'm not referring to anything that Destiny said, I'm just going to state my own opinions.
I've tried really hard with this game. And 'hard' is subjective, but when you're doing a postgrad in Plasma Physics and you work a part time job and go to the gym 4 times a week, there is only so much trying you can possibly do. But anyway, since I bought the game in January, I have only amassed just under 300 games total. There is no feature in this game that makes me want to play consistently and that is why my highest league placement in 1v1 is Gold. Not because I'm bad at the game (can be argued obviously) but because I simple don't play enough.
Why don't I play enough? In WC3 it always began with a glhf or 'hi'. Then after the first engagement, the flaming or friendly banter begins. However negative or positive each player was, you got the most out of the social aspect of the game (which is a large part). In SC2 however, players aren't motived to usher a single word to each other. We just grind out our brainless BO's from TL, win/lose and leave. The only exception is when you get cannon rushed or cheesed for the 7th time and you can't take it anymore. Chat channels like team liquid are full of retards and whiner who only know how to spout memes like 'DO YOU EVEN LIFT?!' or just flaming each other. Other times they balance whine or shut down a newbie P/Z player asking for help with 'BL/INFESTOR BL/INFESTOR!!' 'FFE IMMORTAL SENTRY 200 COLLOSI ARCHON STALKER AMOVE!!11'. There is no room for discussion in this community.
The social aspect of the game doesn't get any better when you realise there are no more Terrans on Bnet and you've just had to deal with your 5th ZvZ in a row. But still you don't care enough to say anything in chat. You just grind out the BO and then leave. Any deviation or spark of ingenuity gets you killed. A zerg like me can macro perfectly for 15minutes (against his wishes since he would prefer to go back n forth all game) just to lose his 200/200 army to a death ball in a single engagement. No gratification at all and not a single word from the other player. Its like playing against a robot who kicks your ass and then throws you out of the game because you are garbage for him to bother with.
Its a slimy and disgusting way to play a game.
And that is why many people would rather watch than play. But what is the point of a game where it is better to be watched than play? Always players will move on to a 'better' game with more gratification. Its like CoD:MW3.. A pretty brainless shooter when you compare it to giants like DOOM and Unreal Tournament, but you are rewarded simply for playing. Even if you were terrible at day 1, playing up to day 10 means you have leveled the playing field a little through upgrades and leveling. Always, there is always someone in the game willing to talk with you (if not to flame you).
Why is SC2 a barren wasteland? Why does the community not give up its xenophobic and oppressive behaviour? Why are there no more Terrans on Ladder? Why does HoTS look so terrible? Why are MU's so stale and 1 dimensional?
All the above questions and more can be attritubuted to whatever crisis is going on in SC2 at the moment. Its a damn shame that anyone wanting to address these issues gets called a trouble maker and is immediately scapegoated.
Just my thoughts.
Not sure wth you're talking about. "grinding out build orders" <--- ?????????????????? I'm at the GM level with little no to effort and I barely play and all I do is make up my strategies and build orders on the spot and fuck around.
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On November 06 2012 23:26 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 23:13 Charon1979 wrote:On November 06 2012 22:56 Destro wrote:
starcraft isn't dead, but the way this community acts, i wouldn't mind a downsizing at all.
im guessing most people havent been in many gaming communities before. I have fond memories playing games with 1/100th of player bases. the smaller communities were always better.. less trolls, less whiners. the problem with this thread is the ridiculousness of calling a game dead because it has X players. Really, theres nothing wrong with smaller numbers. i welcome it. This is just destiny crying that he cant play video games and act like an idiot on his webcam for money anymore.
Wanna know what kills this game? shit like this. oh and tweeting your dick. my .02 Thats only true if you just look at the game and think "do I want to play that". While this is certainly true for you (less trolls, less whiners,...), its bad for the professional scene because it scares away sponsors. I dont care if there are 100 or 1000000 XCom:EU players out there. It doesnt influence me when im playing the game. But now try to consider GSL, MLG, NASL,... dont you think there is a difference for them (and the players) if there are 100 viewers or 1000000? Do you think the just shrug it of and say "ah better 100 hardcore fans than 1000000 whiners, trolls,... a small viewership is much better!" ? When "we" say SC2 is on the way down, nobody tries to show you how bad the game is and how wrong you are still enjoying a bad game but viewership is stagnating at best. And if it starts to dwindle, many professional players will have to look out for another game or get a "regular" job, thus thinning out the competitive scene. I don't care if someone is playing for 100k or a mousepad. a good game is a good game to me. Theres this unspoken hivemind drive to push esports as the greatest sport in the world or something. Its played in huge venues around the world for thousands of dollars. Congrats, we did it. Thinning out the professional scene isnt a bad idea either. Frankily, people should be playing for the enjoyment, not the money. Call me a purist, but the love of the game and enjoyment of watching top level games is enough for me.
You contradict yourself here. You cant watch "top level games" if there are no "top level players".
To watch your "top level games" you need a player who dedicates TIME into the game. You only can put time into the game if you dont have to put your time somwhere else. Do you think that a player like Bomber will show you "top level play" when he streams for one or two hours after working 8h ?
There are TONS of streaming players in High Masters/GM who have 10 viewers at best. Why? Because they are not "highest level". If you want to see "highest level" you need a big community, because only a big community can sustain a broad and healthy competitive scene.
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Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
There are always top players so there are always top level games. If all top players leave, then the lower tier p[layers become the top level untill there are no players at all.
Cant beilieve this topic is still going lol.
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Just read his post, made me lol so untrue on so many lvls.
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On November 06 2012 22:59 NarAliya wrote:
I'm not referring to anything that Destiny said, I'm just going to state my own opinions.
I've tried really hard with this game. And 'hard' is subjective, but when you're doing a postgrad in Plasma Physics and you work a part time job and go to the gym 4 times a week, there is only so much trying you can possibly do. But anyway, since I bought the game in January, I have only amassed just under 300 games total. There is no feature in this game that makes me want to play consistently and that is why my highest league placement in 1v1 is Gold. Not because I'm bad at the game (can be argued obviously) but because I simple don't play enough.
Why don't I play enough? In WC3 it always began with a glhf or 'hi'. Then after the first engagement, the flaming or friendly banter begins. However negative or positive each player was, you got the most out of the social aspect of the game (which is a large part). In SC2 however, players aren't motived to usher a single word to each other. We just grind out our brainless BO's from TL, win/lose and leave. The only exception is when you get cannon rushed or cheesed for the 7th time and you can't take it anymore. Chat channels like team liquid are full of retards and whiner who only know how to spout memes like 'DO YOU EVEN LIFT?!' or just flaming each other. Other times they balance whine or shut down a newbie P/Z player asking for help with 'BL/INFESTOR BL/INFESTOR!!' 'FFE IMMORTAL SENTRY 200 COLLOSI ARCHON STALKER AMOVE!!11'. There is no room for discussion in this community.
The social aspect of the game doesn't get any better when you realise there are no more Terrans on Bnet and you've just had to deal with your 5th ZvZ in a row. But still you don't care enough to say anything in chat. You just grind out the BO and then leave. Any deviation or spark of ingenuity gets you killed. A zerg like me can macro perfectly for 15minutes (against his wishes since he would prefer to go back n forth all game) just to lose his 200/200 army to a death ball in a single engagement. No gratification at all and not a single word from the other player. Its like playing against a robot who kicks your ass and then throws you out of the game because you are garbage for him to bother with.
Its a slimy and disgusting way to play a game.
And that is why many people would rather watch than play. But what is the point of a game where it is better to be watched than play? Always players will move on to a 'better' game with more gratification. Its like CoD:MW3.. A pretty brainless shooter when you compare it to giants like DOOM and Unreal Tournament, but you are rewarded simply for playing. Even if you were terrible at day 1, playing up to day 10 means you have leveled the playing field a little through upgrades and leveling. Always, there is always someone in the game willing to talk with you (if not to flame you).
Why is SC2 a barren wasteland? Why does the community not give up its xenophobic and oppressive behaviour? Why are there no more Terrans on Ladder? Why does HoTS look so terrible? Why are MU's so stale and 1 dimensional?
All the above questions and more can be attritubuted to whatever crisis is going on in SC2 at the moment. Its a damn shame that anyone wanting to address these issues gets called a trouble maker and is immediately scapegoated.
Just my thoughts.
OH MY GOD another TL poster in Nigeria??? Holy shit, where do you live?
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On November 06 2012 23:59 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 23:26 Destro wrote:On November 06 2012 23:13 Charon1979 wrote:On November 06 2012 22:56 Destro wrote:
starcraft isn't dead, but the way this community acts, i wouldn't mind a downsizing at all.
im guessing most people havent been in many gaming communities before. I have fond memories playing games with 1/100th of player bases. the smaller communities were always better.. less trolls, less whiners. the problem with this thread is the ridiculousness of calling a game dead because it has X players. Really, theres nothing wrong with smaller numbers. i welcome it. This is just destiny crying that he cant play video games and act like an idiot on his webcam for money anymore.
Wanna know what kills this game? shit like this. oh and tweeting your dick. my .02 Thats only true if you just look at the game and think "do I want to play that". While this is certainly true for you (less trolls, less whiners,...), its bad for the professional scene because it scares away sponsors. I dont care if there are 100 or 1000000 XCom:EU players out there. It doesnt influence me when im playing the game. But now try to consider GSL, MLG, NASL,... dont you think there is a difference for them (and the players) if there are 100 viewers or 1000000? Do you think the just shrug it of and say "ah better 100 hardcore fans than 1000000 whiners, trolls,... a small viewership is much better!" ? When "we" say SC2 is on the way down, nobody tries to show you how bad the game is and how wrong you are still enjoying a bad game but viewership is stagnating at best. And if it starts to dwindle, many professional players will have to look out for another game or get a "regular" job, thus thinning out the competitive scene. I don't care if someone is playing for 100k or a mousepad. a good game is a good game to me. Theres this unspoken hivemind drive to push esports as the greatest sport in the world or something. Its played in huge venues around the world for thousands of dollars. Congrats, we did it. Thinning out the professional scene isnt a bad idea either. Frankily, people should be playing for the enjoyment, not the money. Call me a purist, but the love of the game and enjoyment of watching top level games is enough for me. You contradict yourself here. You cant watch "top level games" if there are no "top level players". To watch your "top level games" you need a player who dedicates TIME into the game. You only can put time into the game if you dont have to put your time somwhere else. Do you think that a player like Bomber will show you "top level play" when he streams for one or two hours after working 8h ? There are TONS of streaming players in High Masters/GM who have 10 viewers at best. Why? Because they are not "highest level". If you want to see "highest level" you need a big community, because only a big community can sustain a broad and healthy competitive scene.
exactly what the guy above said..
there will always be a "top" level of skill as long as there is at least 1 player better than another. Maybe the skill level isnt where it could be, then again it isnt even remotely close there now.
Look at broodwar.. we had top level players and no foreigners making any money. a few did go to korea but they weren't being paid "pro" salaries by any stretch of the imagination. the first TSL is still my favorite tournament by FAR and the prize pool was that of something we see in some weekend cups that barely get any attention. Really there was no difference for me, i had favorite players and heroes who i would copy builds from and they were not "pro" as we have it now.
The biggest issue is people don't realize that money and viewership has nothing to do with the enjoyment of the game. What does it matter what numbers LoL has? i dont watch lol, dont play it, so who cares? i mean good for them but it has no effect on whether or not sc2 is "legitimate" since that is completely objective anyways.
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On November 06 2012 22:59 NarAliya wrote:
I'm not referring to anything that Destiny said, I'm just going to state my own opinions.
I've tried really hard with this game. And 'hard' is subjective, but when you're doing a postgrad in Plasma Physics and you work a part time job and go to the gym 4 times a week, there is only so much trying you can possibly do. But anyway, since I bought the game in January, I have only amassed just under 300 games total. There is no feature in this game that makes me want to play consistently and that is why my highest league placement in 1v1 is Gold. Not because I'm bad at the game (can be argued obviously) but because I simple don't play enough.
Why don't I play enough? In WC3 it always began with a glhf or 'hi'. Then after the first engagement, the flaming or friendly banter begins. However negative or positive each player was, you got the most out of the social aspect of the game (which is a large part). In SC2 however, players aren't motived to usher a single word to each other. We just grind out our brainless BO's from TL, win/lose and leave. The only exception is when you get cannon rushed or cheesed for the 7th time and you can't take it anymore. Chat channels like team liquid are full of retards and whiner who only know how to spout memes like 'DO YOU EVEN LIFT?!' or just flaming each other. Other times they balance whine or shut down a newbie P/Z player asking for help with 'BL/INFESTOR BL/INFESTOR!!' 'FFE IMMORTAL SENTRY 200 COLLOSI ARCHON STALKER AMOVE!!11'. There is no room for discussion in this community.
The social aspect of the game doesn't get any better when you realise there are no more Terrans on Bnet and you've just had to deal with your 5th ZvZ in a row. But still you don't care enough to say anything in chat. You just grind out the BO and then leave. Any deviation or spark of ingenuity gets you killed. A zerg like me can macro perfectly for 15minutes (against his wishes since he would prefer to go back n forth all game) just to lose his 200/200 army to a death ball in a single engagement. No gratification at all and not a single word from the other player. Its like playing against a robot who kicks your ass and then throws you out of the game because you are garbage for him to bother with.
Its a slimy and disgusting way to play a game.
And that is why many people would rather watch than play. But what is the point of a game where it is better to be watched than play? Always players will move on to a 'better' game with more gratification. Its like CoD:MW3.. A pretty brainless shooter when you compare it to giants like DOOM and Unreal Tournament, but you are rewarded simply for playing. Even if you were terrible at day 1, playing up to day 10 means you have leveled the playing field a little through upgrades and leveling. Always, there is always someone in the game willing to talk with you (if not to flame you).
Why is SC2 a barren wasteland? Why does the community not give up its xenophobic and oppressive behaviour? Why are there no more Terrans on Ladder? Why does HoTS look so terrible? Why are MU's so stale and 1 dimensional?
All the above questions and more can be attritubuted to whatever crisis is going on in SC2 at the moment. Its a damn shame that anyone wanting to address these issues gets called a trouble maker and is immediately scapegoated.
Just my thoughts.
So very, very true. I am so sick of countering build orders and countering units. SC2 was built from the ground up with the idea of countering as a central part. Before the game was released I saw a PC Gamer issue where Blizzard had provided a list of some units and which units counter which. It was all about hard countering everything, that philosophy has lived on.
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On November 06 2012 22:59 NarAliya wrote:
I'm not referring to anything that Destiny said, I'm just going to state my own opinions.
I've tried really hard with this game. And 'hard' is subjective, but when you're doing a postgrad in Plasma Physics and you work a part time job and go to the gym 4 times a week, there is only so much trying you can possibly do. But anyway, since I bought the game in January, I have only amassed just under 300 games total. There is no feature in this game that makes me want to play consistently and that is why my highest league placement in 1v1 is Gold. Not because I'm bad at the game (can be argued obviously) but because I simple don't play enough.
Why don't I play enough? In WC3 it always began with a glhf or 'hi'. Then after the first engagement, the flaming or friendly banter begins. However negative or positive each player was, you got the most out of the social aspect of the game (which is a large part). In SC2 however, players aren't motived to usher a single word to each other. We just grind out our brainless BO's from TL, win/lose and leave. The only exception is when you get cannon rushed or cheesed for the 7th time and you can't take it anymore. Chat channels like team liquid are full of retards and whiner who only know how to spout memes like 'DO YOU EVEN LIFT?!' or just flaming each other. Other times they balance whine or shut down a newbie P/Z player asking for help with 'BL/INFESTOR BL/INFESTOR!!' 'FFE IMMORTAL SENTRY 200 COLLOSI ARCHON STALKER AMOVE!!11'. There is no room for discussion in this community.
The social aspect of the game doesn't get any better when you realise there are no more Terrans on Bnet and you've just had to deal with your 5th ZvZ in a row. But still you don't care enough to say anything in chat. You just grind out the BO and then leave. Any deviation or spark of ingenuity gets you killed. A zerg like me can macro perfectly for 15minutes (against his wishes since he would prefer to go back n forth all game) just to lose his 200/200 army to a death ball in a single engagement. No gratification at all and not a single word from the other player. Its like playing against a robot who kicks your ass and then throws you out of the game because you are garbage for him to bother with.
Its a slimy and disgusting way to play a game.
And that is why many people would rather watch than play. But what is the point of a game where it is better to be watched than play? Always players will move on to a 'better' game with more gratification. Its like CoD:MW3.. A pretty brainless shooter when you compare it to giants like DOOM and Unreal Tournament, but you are rewarded simply for playing. Even if you were terrible at day 1, playing up to day 10 means you have leveled the playing field a little through upgrades and leveling. Always, there is always someone in the game willing to talk with you (if not to flame you).
Why is SC2 a barren wasteland? Why does the community not give up its xenophobic and oppressive behaviour? Why are there no more Terrans on Ladder? Why does HoTS look so terrible? Why are MU's so stale and 1 dimensional?
All the above questions and more can be attritubuted to whatever crisis is going on in SC2 at the moment. Its a damn shame that anyone wanting to address these issues gets called a trouble maker and is immediately scapegoated.
Just my thoughts. I thought you only thought about maps.
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I do not understand why people experience this game as competitive.
I will try to explain. For me MW3 is not a competitive game. This is mostly because everybody can get kills. Even the biggest dumbfuck will run into someones back and kill him. This creates a very randomised experience. Yes, there will be people that are better than others, but on the whole its a game that creates a enviorment where everybody can get his kills, and every person can feel good.
I have this feeling with sc2 aswell. The amount of games where I lose because this guy cheesed me, and I didnt manage to scout. Or when I play briliantly, but screw op one time and storm kills my whole army. Or when I do something and my opponent screws up. All in all, I very often feel as if the wins come from some random luck factor, and not from actual skill.
With this I do not mean that it is a game without skill. I will hardly ever lose to a Gold, and just rarely to a platinum, in return I will almost never win against a high master level player, and never against a grand master. But within my skill range it feels like a cluster of stuff that will happen, which is out of my or my opponents skill. Here I am mostly talking about ladder. When I play againt people I know, the game is more fun and more skillfull to me. I know their style and can get redemption if needed.
To top this of, it feels like a international alarm goes of everytime I lose a ladder game. Of course, in reality nobody cares about me, but for me as a player it feels as if the game tells me: you are bad and you should feel bad. Even though my experience is that wins and losses are for around 10-80% due to random factors, due to playing a game where I cannot influence it enough to create a skilled win.
This has mostly come to my knowledge after going back to ra3. I forgot how much influence you can have in certain RTS games, and how every loss feels deserved, and every win feels like a good fought out battle.
edit: maybe also explain my main point. People are saying that casuals are not competitive, and only want to play for fun. Ofcourse this is true for a certain group of people, and I think people can be both looking for competition and laid back costum games. But I as a person this that I can be fairly competitive and have enjoyed many competitive games. SC2 however does not feel like a game where I can have a good competitive experience.
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On November 07 2012 01:55 Deckkie wrote:
I do not understand why people experience this game as competitive.
I will try to explain. For me MW3 is not a competitive game. This is mostly because everybody can get kills. Even the biggest dumbfuck will run into someones back and kill him. This creates a very randomised experience. Yes, there will be people that are better than others, but on the whole its a game that creates a enviorment where everybody can get his kills, and every person can feel good.
I have this feeling with sc2 aswell. The amount of games where I lose because this guy cheesed me, and I didnt manage to scout. Or when I play briliantly, but screw op one time and storm kills my whole army. Or when I do something and my opponent screws up. All in all, I very often feel as if the wins come from some random luck factor, and not from actual skill.
With this I do not mean that it is a game without skill. I will hardly ever lose to a Gold, and just rarely to a platinum, in return I will almost never win against a high master level player, and never against a grand master. But within my skill range it feels like a cluster of stuff that will happen, which is out of my or my opponents skill. Here I am mostly talking about ladder. When I play againt people I know, the game is more fun and more skillfull to me. I know their style and can get redemption if needed.
To top this of, it feels like a international alarm goes of everytime I lose a ladder game. Of course, in reality nobody cares about me, but for me as a player it feels as if the game tells me: you are bad and you should feel bad. Even though my experience is that wins and losses are for around 10-80% due to random factors, due to playing a game where I cannot influence it enough to create a skilled win.
This has mostly come to my knowledge after going back to ra3. I forgot how much influence you can have in certain RTS games, and how every loss feels deserved, and every win feels like a good fought out battle.
edit: maybe also explain my main point. People are saying that casuals are not competitive, and only want to play for fun. Ofcourse this is true for a certain group of people, and I think people can be both looking for competition and laid back costum games. But I as a person this that I can be fairly competitive and have enjoyed many competitive games. SC2 however does not feel like a game where I can have a good competitive experience.
you had me until i read the ra3 part... in comparison, ra3 is absolute trash. skill is nearly non-existent. The counters are so hard, its really build order luck at best.
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On November 07 2012 02:00 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:55 Deckkie wrote:
I do not understand why people experience this game as competitive.
I will try to explain. For me MW3 is not a competitive game. This is mostly because everybody can get kills. Even the biggest dumbfuck will run into someones back and kill him. This creates a very randomised experience. Yes, there will be people that are better than others, but on the whole its a game that creates a enviorment where everybody can get his kills, and every person can feel good.
I have this feeling with sc2 aswell. The amount of games where I lose because this guy cheesed me, and I didnt manage to scout. Or when I play briliantly, but screw op one time and storm kills my whole army. Or when I do something and my opponent screws up. All in all, I very often feel as if the wins come from some random luck factor, and not from actual skill.
With this I do not mean that it is a game without skill. I will hardly ever lose to a Gold, and just rarely to a platinum, in return I will almost never win against a high master level player, and never against a grand master. But within my skill range it feels like a cluster of stuff that will happen, which is out of my or my opponents skill. Here I am mostly talking about ladder. When I play againt people I know, the game is more fun and more skillfull to me. I know their style and can get redemption if needed.
To top this of, it feels like a international alarm goes of everytime I lose a ladder game. Of course, in reality nobody cares about me, but for me as a player it feels as if the game tells me: you are bad and you should feel bad. Even though my experience is that wins and losses are for around 10-80% due to random factors, due to playing a game where I cannot influence it enough to create a skilled win.
This has mostly come to my knowledge after going back to ra3. I forgot how much influence you can have in certain RTS games, and how every loss feels deserved, and every win feels like a good fought out battle.
edit: maybe also explain my main point. People are saying that casuals are not competitive, and only want to play for fun. Ofcourse this is true for a certain group of people, and I think people can be both looking for competition and laid back costum games. But I as a person this that I can be fairly competitive and have enjoyed many competitive games. SC2 however does not feel like a game where I can have a good competitive experience.
you had me until i read the ra3 part... in comparison, ra3 is absolute trash. skill is nearly non-existent. The counters are so hard, its really build order luck at best.
This is not really the thread to discuss ra3, but I can imagine more people thinking like you. So ill adress it. RA3 is hardly BO related. It is extremely easy to scout, the game is designed in such a way players always tech at the same speed, and its much less strategical than sc2. Its vey easy to transition into a composition that does well. Because its hard to just straight out win in the game, you will see much more and easier adopting to other strats, and it makes for an overall more tactical game.
This ismostly because sc2 seems to have much higher aspirations for the type of RTS is wants to be.
Maybe that you played it competitively when it was mostly allies rushing peacekeepers, but the game evolved a lot since then.
edit: and even if someone disagrees about ra3, it shouldnt really take anything away from the point that I am trying to make.
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NarAliya Nigeria. November 06 2012 22:59. Posts 147
Like your post alot and do agree with most of it.
maybe the biggest problem for sc /rts is that its 1 vs 1
Also the game mechanic has its limitations.
You win or you loose and there is nothing in between.
Just compare with fps or mmorpg, like others said.
With fps you on a server with 16-64 people.
You win or you loose a map but there is alot in between, you can get most kills while still be on the loosing team, and like others said even scrubs can have fun and will kill other players.
Mmorpg is even 1000+ people on a server, with clans active and chat all the time,And there no winners or loosers.
Is it possible to solve this for sc?
I dont know, i dont think annything can realy change seeing sc is 1 vs 1
Maybe sc needs to just accept its niche, it will remain widely popular to watch but regular gamers wont feel the urge to play it.
Its not such a bad situation after all, of all the people that watch soccer probably less then 1 out of 10 still play it.
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On November 06 2012 22:59 NarAliya wrote:
I'm not referring to anything that Destiny said, I'm just going to state my own opinions.
I've tried really hard with this game. And 'hard' is subjective, but when you're doing a postgrad in Plasma Physics and you work a part time job and go to the gym 4 times a week, there is only so much trying you can possibly do. But anyway, since I bought the game in January, I have only amassed just under 300 games total. There is no feature in this game that makes me want to play consistently and that is why my highest league placement in 1v1 is Gold. Not because I'm bad at the game (can be argued obviously) but because I simple don't play enough.
Why don't I play enough? In WC3 it always began with a glhf or 'hi'. Then after the first engagement, the flaming or friendly banter begins. However negative or positive each player was, you got the most out of the social aspect of the game (which is a large part). In SC2 however, players aren't motived to usher a single word to each other. We just grind out our brainless BO's from TL, win/lose and leave. The only exception is when you get cannon rushed or cheesed for the 7th time and you can't take it anymore. Chat channels like team liquid are full of retards and whiner who only know how to spout memes like 'DO YOU EVEN LIFT?!' or just flaming each other. Other times they balance whine or shut down a newbie P/Z player asking for help with 'BL/INFESTOR BL/INFESTOR!!' 'FFE IMMORTAL SENTRY 200 COLLOSI ARCHON STALKER AMOVE!!11'. There is no room for discussion in this community.
The social aspect of the game doesn't get any better when you realise there are no more Terrans on Bnet and you've just had to deal with your 5th ZvZ in a row. But still you don't care enough to say anything in chat. You just grind out the BO and then leave. Any deviation or spark of ingenuity gets you killed. A zerg like me can macro perfectly for 15minutes (against his wishes since he would prefer to go back n forth all game) just to lose his 200/200 army to a death ball in a single engagement. No gratification at all and not a single word from the other player. Its like playing against a robot who kicks your ass and then throws you out of the game because you are garbage for him to bother with.
Its a slimy and disgusting way to play a game.
And that is why many people would rather watch than play. But what is the point of a game where it is better to be watched than play? Always players will move on to a 'better' game with more gratification. Its like CoD:MW3.. A pretty brainless shooter when you compare it to giants like DOOM and Unreal Tournament, but you are rewarded simply for playing. Even if you were terrible at day 1, playing up to day 10 means you have leveled the playing field a little through upgrades and leveling. Always, there is always someone in the game willing to talk with you (if not to flame you).
Why is SC2 a barren wasteland? Why does the community not give up its xenophobic and oppressive behaviour? Why are there no more Terrans on Ladder? Why does HoTS look so terrible? Why are MU's so stale and 1 dimensional?
All the above questions and more can be attritubuted to whatever crisis is going on in SC2 at the moment. Its a damn shame that anyone wanting to address these issues gets called a trouble maker and is immediately scapegoated.
Just my thoughts.
WC3 was that way to you because you chose to play it that way. There's an iccup for WC3 as well, the competitiveness is the same.
I agree that there are things Blizzard can do to make it more rewarding for JUST playing the game, but IMO they are doing that and will continue to improve on that (leveling system, unranked matchmaking, better custom games) -
"Any spark or ingenuity can get you killed" it's good to know that you're gold and that's where a lot of your whining comes from. As a diamond I can hop into a game vs a gold and do a ridiculous amount of strats and win. Did you see QXC in Tl Attack? He had insane challenges against master's players...and won. The skill cap to this game, especially before pro level is insanely high. You CAN do a ridiculous amount of strategies and win, but you have to be better than your opponent, and if you are the one mapping out a BO and they took theirs from someone who is much more experienced than you, chances are they're going to have the upper hand. This is true in a ton of games.
Chances are your "ingenuity" is not as well mapped out as the BOs are you took from more experienced players. What more do you want? There's nothing wrong with 300 games and being in gold, but I don't believe for a second you were a high level WC3 player so your statements of (in past threads) "you could do anything you wanted in WC3 to win" mean nothing unless you have a nice iccup rating to prove you weren't awful at that game too.
"This is a slimy and disgusting way to play the game", holy shit you take things personally. Your entire description of playing 1v1 is so ludicrously exaggerated it almost blows my mind. SC2 1v1 isn't for everyone. I also hope they make team games more relevant so people who aren't into 1v1 can still be into the game, but I think you're more blinded by nostalgia than anything for days of WC3 where apparently in your dream world no one gave a shit about winning.
SC2 casual experience is far from perfect, but it'll be a lot better in HotS. That much is evident.
But within my skill range it feels like a cluster of stuff that will happen, which is out of my or my opponents skill.
Ah, this one's a real easy fix. You're wrong. You lost, you made mistakes. You won, your opponent made mistakes. Chances are both of you made mistakes. You're only platinum.
No wonder you feel like you've reached a plateau, you have.
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EPT
