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Destiny on where he thinks SC2 is heading. - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
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kellymilkies
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Singapore1393 Posts
October 17 2012 05:21 GMT
#41
it's quite obvious how much certain companies care about the game. valve has a dev forum for dota2 and they do read the social sites and stuff and updates their games and functions according to what the community is asking for... and this game is just a beta atm.
Be the change you wish to see in the world ^-^V //
Popkiller
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
3415 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 05:23:29
October 17 2012 05:22 GMT
#42
This makes sense and I've come to terms with it. It's unreasonable to expect that SC2 will ever be huge. That said, I enjoy playing (and watching) the game a lot. I know I'll move on eventually, though.

E-Sports will inevitably be huge someday but the games won't look like they do now.
how2TL
Profile Joined August 2010
1197 Posts
October 17 2012 05:23 GMT
#43
On October 17 2012 14:16 jalstar wrote:
Ok 1, I thought Destiny wasn't posting on reddit any more, 2, most of the things in this article are correct, but I want to focus on something else.

Are 1v1 games/sports intrinsically less interesting than team games/sports? (because humans are social animals)

I don't think Dota/LoL are competitors to SC2 any more than football is a competitor to tennis.


If a tennis tournament is broadcasted on Monday night, yeah it's competing against football (and it's gonna fucking lose).

I think Destiny made a very good point, among others, that most people remember playing BW's UMS modes. This is true for Warcraft 3 too. UMS maps were those games' identity among a lot of people. Not so with SC2. Connecting that fact with the lack of popularity (compared to the explosive growth people expected before release) is quite interesting.
Shin_Gouki
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States313 Posts
October 17 2012 05:23 GMT
#44
The real question is, can the community push the shit out of blizzard to give the game we're looking for. Destiny has a lot of good key points, but surely we as a community can create a solution..
Death comes in many forms
bellyfrog
Profile Joined August 2010
New Zealand72 Posts
October 17 2012 05:24 GMT
#45
What do Blizzard care about? Money.

By getting all of the copyright to SC2 content or w/e it is they did, they tried to get a lot of added income from SC2.

But I guess that money doesn't come close to the taxes of the Diablo 3 RMAH, let alone WoW subscriptions which must dwarf SC2 income by a ridiculous amount.

In D3 and WoW, Blizzard makes constant efforts to appease the playerbase. In SC2 we still don't have LAN after 2+ years.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 05:30:11
October 17 2012 05:24 GMT
#46
It's not the accessibility of chat and custom games that is hindering SC2's growth among casual players. The only way SC2 could compete with LoL and Dota 2 in that regard is by going free to play.

And in any case, IMO it's not at all the end of the world if the Starcraft community remains primarily hardcore. If that means less money it's unfortunate but so be it. The premier, most appealing leagues will ALWAYS be the Korean ones anyway. GSL is so much more fun to watch because it's the cutting edge of gameplay. and IMO, GSL and the Kespa leagues will not die off, even if their prize money and maybe even production value decreases.

The reason I favor this hardcore orientation is that SC2 1v1 is hardcore, and there's no way around it. There's a reason that increased game knowledge will ALWAYS increase a caster's appeal. We hardcore fans do not want casters dumbing this down for casuals; that would greatly hurt the viewing experience for us.

That all being said, I do not advocate against growth in the casual viewerbase, so long as the viewing experience for hardcore fans isn't hurt by it. And I certainly have done my part in supporting esports monetarily, having spent at least $300 on tournaments and merchandise. I've also contributed to peepmode, sc2gears and drop.sc. And for those who have the money, I would definitely encourage spending a bit on esports.
Jehct
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
New Zealand9115 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 05:26:20
October 17 2012 05:25 GMT
#47
Really needs to have a section on how 'casualness' and 'easyness' are completely different fucking things, IMO. DOTA2/LoL (more DOTA2) have shown that you don't need to easy a game down/remove systems to keep people playing; making ease of learning a priority (eg. good bots you can learn basic competitive gameplay from; 'suggested items' which could be 'suggested builds in SC2') is 10x more important than being able to a-click an army.

The entire idea of simplifying a game to make it more enjoyable for casuals is fucking retarded. The game should be equally hard for everyone, so you and the person you're playing are both making stupid mistakes. That doesn't make you quit; the feeling of nailing something mechanical is fucking addictive. Nailing every last hit in the first 5mins of a DOTA game for the first time ever feels fucking awesome. Winning your first chess game when you're six is, to most, a lot more exciting than your first game of drafts.

So yeah, take the emphasis off the 'no hand holding' ladder, redesign the interface so that custom games/community stuff is the focus, incorporate competitive learning videos/build orders/etc into the game itself so that playing for the first time isn't so fucking horrifying and you might see some sustainable growth.

Or just keep making the same mistakes and maybe make a small profit and see a stable (ish) competitive scene, ala WC3.

Fuck you Blizzard. Make the right choice; stop letting Valve make you look like amateurs. You did this first, you pricks.
"You seem to think about this game a lot"
Frudgey
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada3367 Posts
October 17 2012 05:25 GMT
#48
On October 17 2012 14:01 Torte de Lini wrote:
Formatting is subpar

Even if Dota and LoL triumph over SC2 (which is already happening), Blizzard still has a dominance and no competition in the RTS scene, does that not matter? We're comparing two different genres on the premise of E-Sports, but Blizzard still has a hold on the players and scene. Not all, or even many, players will go to Dota and they like the scene and the community. That's enough for the game to still live with some tournaments, major events, etc.

There are a lot of fundamental problems with the scene, Blizzard is at fault in-part, but I think we have a lot of internal issues too. Dota and LoL also suffer major problems within their respective scene that hinder their growth, but I can see how Blizzard is miles away from what Valve and Riot are suffering from.


I agree with Torte de Lini here; Blizzard is the only company that has any games in the competitive RTS scene. And I think that because of this, there will always be an audience for Starcraft 2. Or there will be until the next RTS built for e-sports comes out, whether that game comes from Blizzard or not.

That being said, I do believe that Starcraft 2 will is losing audience members to both DOTA and LoL, as (I think) those games are much more accessible than Starcraft and easier to get into.

Speaking from personal experience, I know that most of my friends have migrated from Starcraft to LoL, as for them LoL is a more enjoyable game because they don't get stressed out while playing LoL. I mean, why play a game that constantly judges your performance and grades you when you can play a game that is a casual team game?
It is better to die for The Emperor than live for yourself.
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
October 17 2012 05:28 GMT
#49
So glad this was made.

If we truly want to have a chance at getting real results here the community has to present a united front to blizzard, instead of the usual mess with everyone clinging to their own irrelevant opinions instead of pushing for a common goal.
Liquipedia
DMXD
Profile Joined February 2008
United States4064 Posts
October 17 2012 05:28 GMT
#50
On October 17 2012 14:16 jalstar wrote:
Ok 1, I thought Destiny wasn't posting on reddit any more, 2, most of the things in this article are correct, but I want to focus on something else.

Are 1v1 games/sports intrinsically less interesting than team games/sports? (because humans are social animals)

I don't think Dota/LoL are competitors to SC2 any more than football is a competitor to tennis.


Personally I prefer team games over 1v1 sports. It is very difficult to built some sort of connection and loyalty to an individual who happen to play like tennis than over your hometown team.
RedMorning
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada117 Posts
October 17 2012 05:29 GMT
#51
I normally don't agree with the comments made by TT1 or Destiny...but I must say they hit the nail on the head. Nicely done! 100% agree.
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 05:32:32
October 17 2012 05:31 GMT
#52
nvm
lisward
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Singapore959 Posts
October 17 2012 05:32 GMT
#53
On October 17 2012 14:24 Doodsmack wrote:
It's not the accessibility of chat and custom games that is hindering SC2's growth among casual players. The only way SC2 could compete with LoL and Dota 2 in that regard is by going free to play.

And in any case, IMO it's not at all the end of the world if the Starcraft community remains primarily hardcore. If that means less money it's unfortunate but so be it. The premier, most appealing leagues will ALWAYS be the Korean ones anyway. GSL is so much more fun to watch because it's the cutting edge of gameplay. and IMO, GSL and the Kespa leagues will not die off, even if their prize money and maybe even production value decreases.

The reason I favor this hardcore orientation is that SC2 1v1 is hardcore, and there's no way around it. There's a reason that increased game knowledge will ALWAYS increase a caster's appeal. We hardcore fans do not want casters dumbing this down for casuals; that would greatly hurt the viewing experience for us.

That all being said, I do not advocate against growth in the casual viewerbase, so long as the viewing experience for hardcore fans isn't hurt by it. And I certainly have done my part in supporting esports monetarily, having spent at least $300 on tournaments and merchandise. I've also contributed to peepmode, sc2gears and drop.sc. And for those who have the money, I would definitely encourage spending a bit on esports.

Small community of hardcore games = no money into the scene = no scene.
Opinions are like phasers -- everybody ought to have one
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
October 17 2012 05:32 GMT
#54
SC2 is a batter game than BW, which was no fun at all, imo. I like being able to actually see what I'm clicking and have stuff respond and path well. This is just more BW elitism.

User was warned for this post
SC2 Mapmaker
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
October 17 2012 05:34 GMT
#55
Everything said is true, but I don't think that's the real core problem with SC2. BW slowly built up and became a passion for many people. It basically grew to become what it was from nothing and completely on its own. BW also failed everywhere else in the world (the only major and consistent international tournaments were WCG and Dreamhack). SC2 has been shoved down peoples' throats since its release, riding on the back of BW's success. People didn't have a chance to come to love the game and really feel passionate about it.

SC2 isn't the game it needs to be, and HotS doesn't look like it'll become the game it needs to be either. It's hard to be disappointed that a game isn't growing when it's just not fun to play.
Hello
Kambing
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1176 Posts
October 17 2012 05:34 GMT
#56
UMS made more sense back in the Starcraft era when gaming and the internet were both still young. Now with the proliferation of the indie gaming scene on the web as well as more, high-quality online games, custom maps don't really have a place in the world. Players have better things to do with their time, and developers have better tools available to them than custom maps.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 05:42:10
October 17 2012 05:35 GMT
#57
+ Show Spoiler +
(source: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/11m21k/starcraft_2_will_be_dead_before_legacy_of_the/)

*I believe this is a first draft of his article, he comes of as being "slightly" over-aggressive but he does bring up alot of interesting points:


This is an incredibly heated topic, and I'm speaking a bit outside of my comfort zone. Be warned, some things in this thread might be a bit completely outside of the realm of possibility/reality. I'm only speaking from my own, personal experience using the (incredibly) limited amount of knowledge I've accumulated while existing in this part of the internet over the past couple of years.

History

For a little bit of backstory, Brood War was ENORMOUS in South Korea. ENORMOUS! It was broadcasted on national television [1] to millions of people. Players like Boxer earned almost a half million dollars [2] per year in salary + endorsements. Brood War was, for a lot of people, considered THE definitive E-Sport. Over 100,000 [3] people were attending OSL finals.

There's really not much to argue about here. StarCraft: Brood War was enormous. Brood War was an undeniable stepping stone in order to get to where we are today. So why does it feel like growth has stagnated in Starcraft 2? Surely there's only one direction to go from the end of the Brood War to the start of Wings of Liberty, and that's up, yes?

Stagnation and South Korea

People expected StarCraft 2 to only build upon Brood War and explode in popularity over the 2010-2012 seasons. "E-SPORTS E-SPORTS E-SPORTS" people would chant on the forums. Leagues such as IPL, NASL and MLG were raising all sorts of capital to invest in these tournaments with the idea that we'd be getting hundreds of thousands of viewers.

But that growth never came.

Even Sundance went on Live on 3 to explain that he's still "not making money [4]" and that the amount of money being spent now was more akin to "investing" than anything that was turning a real profit. We haven't seen the explosion in prize money we've been hoping for.

IPL's prize pool has remained the same [5] from seasons 3-5. The NASL's prize pool has remained the same [6] since its inception. MLG's prize pools have been rising [7], but they are the only ones to push relatively innovative monetization schemes into the market (such as the $20 PPV model + high production gold membership content).

So we haven't really seen the explosive growth that we were kind of expecting and hoping for. There are no million dollar Starcraft 2 tournaments. And, arguably the worst news yet, South Korea didn't bite.

A quick glance [8] shows that almost 25% of all South Koreans are playing League of Legends in PC Bangs. It's by far the most popular game, with the next game falling in under 13%. Brood War comes in 8th place, at 3.4%, and Wings of Liberty doesn't even make the top 10 list.

Heart of the Swarm Bored

There's been a lot of hype concerning Heart of the Swarm. Streamers were looking forward to the (hopefully tremendous) boost of popularity due to having access to the Beta. Players were hoping for innovative new mechanics and play, reinvigorating what was becoming a relatively stagnated and uninteresting gain. I can speak from personal experience here, and from watching others play, that most of the HotS excitement died off in about one week. There was a noticeable bump in viewers for a little while, but everything has pretty much settled down now and people are back to Wings of Liberty.

To me, personally, this is one of the biggest nails in the coffin for the Starcraft 2 scene. Brood War was a whole different game, it changed everything and it remained popular for some 10 years, arguably defining a generation of South Korean athletics.


Alright, now that we have the history out of the way, it's time to get into some of the more controversial topics and ideas.

How do we grow StarCraft 2?

You can't.

This sounds like a dick answer, but I'm going into full-on asshole mode for this one. The people telling you that e-mailing sponsors to thank them for supporting teams etc...etc...and that it's really helping the scene are lying to you, or are disillusioned. It may help just a bit, but the impact is incredibly minimal compared to the most important factors - SALES. Companies don't sponsor events so that their PR people can jerk off over e-mails all day long; they sponsor events to get a monetary return on their advertisements.

Here's a simple formula.

I invest $x into an event knowing that it gets y viewers. I expect z% conversion on those viewers and my average sale is $a.

The money you invest into a team is the sponsorships that we hear about. The viewers are the number of people that watch tournaments. The "conversion" is a % of people that will make a purchase based on the investment in advertising, and the sale amount can be used to determine the worth of advertising.

If MLG gets 150,000 viewers and their conversion is .5% [750 people] on a particular product and my product sells for $30 each, I can expect to gross ~$22,500 in sales from "sponsoring" said tournament. If I were going to advertise or invest in MLG, there are no amount of "friendly e-mails" that are going to cause me to invest more than that into it, because it's simply not worth my time or money to do so.

Yeah, I simplified this quite a bit. Brand image (people being happy/associating your brand with positive ideas) and loss leading (losing money in one area in the hopes of using the marketing to gain money in another area) do exist, and it IS a good thing to tell advertisers that you have MADE A PURCHASE of a product DUE to them sponsoring a particular event. However, I get this feeling/notion that people think that if we just go on these mass e-mailing sprees that somehow it will "grow e-sportz!!111" or cause this huge influx of money into the scene.

In the end, it all comes down to money. The best way to grow E-Sports is to acquire more viewers.

If we can't do anything, who can?

There is only one person right now who can grow StarCraft 2 in the way it needs to grow.
One entity, rather.

Blizzard.

Starcraft 2 is suffering from a lot of problems. It has been from the very beginning, but Blizzard has failed to address them time and time and time again. They are continually proving themselves utterly incompetent when it comes to managing a game as a competitive sport backed by a casual community.

People, ESPECIALLY people in this community seem to fail to realize that a game's competitive success lives or dies by its casual accessibility. Yeah, in a dream world we all want this ULTRA CUT-THROAT COMPETITIVE FUCK YOUR FACE game where OH MY FUCKING GOD SKILL CEILING SO HIGH NO MULTIPLE BILDING SIELECT FUK AUTO-MICRO OH MY GOD SO COMPETITIVEEE!1111...But in the real world, no one wants to play that game except competitive people.

Competitive games are not fun.

It's not fun to play ranked matches that affect a ladder ranking. Why on earth would you play a game that gives you ladder anxiety? Why would you play a game where 11/11 or 6 pools or 4gates can kill you in under 4 minutes? Why would you play a game that punishes mistakes so cruelly?

The average, casual player wouldn't. One of the Starcraft 2's major problems is its inability to understand that its primary audience (the casual gamer) has been completely neglected.

Let's look at Brood War for a second. Check out what you see [9] as soon as you log in. The chat + friends list takes up almost 70% of the screen! If you want to play "Melee" games (kind of the equivalent to Laddering in SC2) you have to click the "Join" button on the right, and then filter for the melee games you wanted to play. Starcraft 2 has taken a relatively minor and extremely unpopular feature of Starcraft Brood War and made it the focal point [10] of their game. Why in the FUCK would you design a game around the most unpopular feature of its predecessor?! This shows a clear and disgusting lack of understanding on Blizzard's part and is entirely unacceptable for a company trying to design a competitive game.

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to things like these; obviously the people in Blizzard who work in the positions they work in are there for a reason, so I assume they know more than me about these things. But this...oversight...I just don't understand. Everyone who played Brood War played for the UMS games; the 2v2v2v2 BGHs; the 3v3 zero clut!111 nr 20 and 2v2v2v2 FMP!. When most people think of BW, they remember playing hundreds of games of Evolves or Bunker Wars or that fucking Yugioh! or DBZ game.

WHY WOULD YOU MAKE THE FOCAL POINT OF SC2 A COMPETITIVE ASPECT WHEN 95% OF CASUAL GAMERS HAVE NO DESIRE TO COMPETE?!

This lack of understanding on Blizzards part is the number 1 reason why Starcraft 2 is dying, and their utter failure(11) in understanding even the most basic concepts of designing a casual-friendly game are mind-blowing.

Here are a few suggestions just right off the top of my head, that would increase SC2's popularity among casual gamers:

  • More ways to get achievements (everyone fucking loves achievements, look at: X-box live, Square-enix's online play, Steam, PSN, origin, WoW, to name a few)

  • Customizable decals or skins for units (no affect on play, only visual)

  • Paid/unpaid name change (THEY ALREADY ACCEPT PAYMENTS AND YOU CAN ALREADY CHANGE YOUR NAME, THE BACK-END EXISTS, WHY NOT MAKE A FRONT-END FOR THIS WHAT THE FUCK?!)

  • Fix the clusterfuck that is "The Arcade" (I don't even)


Blizzard is by no means an indie company, it's not like they lack the funds or the resources to do any of these things. The fact that we had a game launch without chat channels...I don't...what...how...my God....

Players LOVE "building" towards something when they play. That's why people grind out games on League of Legends - they always earn points every game that they can put towards new champions or runes. There is no reason to play more than a few online games of Starcraft 2 before putting it down and being done with it. This is a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM.

What's worse, Blizzard seems to be completely oblivious to all of these problems with Heart of the Swarm. Clan support? WE DON'T WANT CLAN SUPPORT, JUST LET US CHANGE OUR NAMES. Ability to play unranked games? This is nice, BUT FIX THE CLUSTERFUCK ARCADE, casual gamers don't give a fuck about 1v1s!

So what's going to happen in the next few years?

I'm sorry if I come off as pessimistic, but with the way that RioT and Valve are doing SO MANY THINGS right with their respective games, I can't see SC2 being considered a serious competitive game come 2 years from now. LoL's growth has been explosive, DotA 2 is...well, fuck, it's DotA and Valve, what else needs to be said? Both games push their marketing HARD (RioT pushes their youtube [12] and runs all sorts of promotions [13] to get people involed in the community, DotA has HATS [14] MAN, HATS!).

Starcraft 2 has....people clapping during Blizzcon when players don't spawn in close positions and people screaming in agony when lag screens come up. And don't give me this bullshit about how "IT WASN'T B.NETS FAULT!", IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT IT'S NOT B.NETS FAULT, IF IT WAS ON LAN THEN INTERNET WOULDN'T BE A FUCKING FACTOR. And them having the nerve to say that emulating the b.net server locally would be impossible [15] is a fucking JOKE [16].

Again, sorry if this sounds pessimistic, but if this game is going to grow and be considered a serious contender to LoL or DotA 2 over the next few years, the only person we can really rely on to step up their game is Blizzard. The community can help, a bit; purchasing products and letting advertisers know you are making purchases based on sponsorships + telling your friends about the game. But Blizzard HAS to make some kind of serious attempt to appeal to the casual player and to bolster interest and support from the casual gamer.

The ball's in your court, Blizzard.

(I'll edit and change up some things if this reads weird or has factual errors anywhere in it based on comments below, feel free to let me know if I'm way off the mark on something)"

    Sources
    [1]

    [2] Escapist Magazine: BoxeR in Brief
    [3] Wikipedia's StarLeague OnGameNet
    [4] Sundance: "Not making money"
    [5] IGN Proleague Tournaments
    [6] North-American Star League Tournaments
    [7] MLG Tournaments
    [8] Most popular games in Korea
    [9] Brood War B.net channels
    [10] StarCraft 2 User Page
    [11] Kotaku: StarCraft II Chat rooms inbound
    [12] League of Legends promotional tool (youtube sub.)
    [13] League of Legends promotional tool (Facebook likes)
    [14] Dota 2's incentives (hats)
    [15] Blizzard responds to lack of LAN support
    [16] StarCraft 2 LAN Hack/ easy to set up

https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
JonIrenicus
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Italy602 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 05:37:55
October 17 2012 05:37 GMT
#58
--- Nuked ---
armada[sb]
Profile Joined August 2011
United States432 Posts
October 17 2012 05:37 GMT
#59
People want to play games with their friends. Very few gamers are actually out there to play games by themselves over and over. Starcraft 2 is a shit team game.
#Hitpoint @ GameSurge (IDLE=BAN)
Xxio
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada5565 Posts
October 17 2012 05:37 GMT
#60
Blizzard should have given Brood War a facelift instead of making StarCraft 2.
KTY
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