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Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 09 2012 18:17 thepuppyassassin wrote:
The worst thing about starcraft 2 is the clumping of units. It is the chief design flaw that causes extremely quick, difficult to follow, much too decisive battles, and it is only compounded by the fact that they keep incorporating units that restrict movement or cause splash damage. The speed in which the battles happen also make it difficult to showcase good micro and decisionmaking.
SC2 should have simply been a graphical update of brood war with a new single player campaign. It would have sold just as many copies.
Completely agree.
Blizzard listen to this!!!!
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On November 09 2012 18:10 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 17:38 Adreme wrote:On November 09 2012 17:19 Brett wrote:On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL. Players slumping after big wins is hardly unique to SC2. It happened in BW, and it happens in many sports the world over. Moreover, the fact that there haven't been significant periods of sustained dominance by a number of players (though I'd argue MVP's consistency is an indicator to the contrary) in the 2 years that SC2 has been around is not necessarily indicative of it depending too much 'on random' as you put it. I wouldnt say its randomness in sc2 since we have basically had these short spurts since the 3 kings era of Nestea MVP and MC where a player will emerge and look unbeatable for a month or 2 he will win basically everything he enters and then all of a sudden he falls off and the next player does that. What is wrong with sc2 on you opinion if not randomness? It was alredy mentioned in this thread that «Grubby has stated that he feels that he doesnt have the control over his wins like he had in wc3, where he felt that if he was a little better than his opponent he would win 90% of the games against that player.» Grubby thinks its randomness.
can't take Grubby's SC2 randomness opinion at face value when he was one of the best WC3 players while he's some tiers below the best SC2 Protoss players
WC3 game mechanics of micro heavy high HP army & hero control is also vastly different from SC2 game mechanics
my opinion on players that get hot for 1-2 months then start falling off is that they figure something out that allows them to get ahead of the curve for that time then everybody starts catching up and figuring it out
SC2 player skill ceiling is still being advanced and still being better figured out. some players can keep up and are the trend setters. other players lag behind needing others to show them what to do. some players start to fall off (Nestea) and others fall off completely (example being Huk currently experiencing what Jinro went through).
things like balance patches also constantly shape the game and how the pros play although Blizzard hasn't released one in a while in an apparent attempt to let the game stabilize, but I do think that is causing the game to stagnate with PvP being boring as hell and Infestor heavy Zerg play being very non-exciting.
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On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL.
And MY point is that when you are playing games constantly, you cannot be prepared and mentally refreshed in the same way as when tournaments are FAR less often. MVP has wrist injuries, it is hard to be at your best all the time when dealing with that.
"Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players?"
Well if you read that - I already did and you likely read over it because it makes your case harder to make.
"The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Leenock wins MLG and reaches the finals of GSL in the span of a month. They are the hardest tournaments in the world, if the game was as random as you said what they did was nearly impossible.
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On November 09 2012 17:59 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 16:01 Lunareste wrote:On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL. Try "because the meta game of sc2 is constantly evolving and not stagnant and figured out like BW after 10 years" and "because he is suffering from an extremely debilitating injury where his performance from day to day can be wildly different" sc2 hasn't evolved in over a year. Every single game is the same. You can't even use different compositions because they don't work. At least in BW you could do something different in tvp every game. In sc2 you can't. Every matchup looks the exact same no matter who is playing it. It's boring as fuck to watch, it's boring as fuck to play. I used to hate on dota/LoL so hard and say sc2 was better. After playing dota2 I can easily say it's a lot more fun than sc2 and a lot more spectator friendly. I don't have to wait 30 minutes for a 20 second fight that decides the game. There's fighting all game.
Since when did BW TvP not largely revolve around mech since 2006? Vods of pro play please.
Idra went ling/bling/muta vs MMA on Daybreak and won just last week. LiquidSea has been going mech in TvP with fine results on the ladder. What this means is, though mech is likely not viable at the highest levels - you can surely go many many styles on ladder because the game is largely skill based (you mentioned this in the second person, therefore I assumed you personally felt you could not deviate from more than one style on the ladder - this is hilariously untrue). From your posts I find it pretty likely you weren't GM so this most definitely applies to you. But it's pretty clear from your paragraph that any amount of numbers and evidence I give you, you'll still refute it. That's okay.
I feel like I have to post this way too often: do you realize people got bored of BW too? And they use the same over exaggerated generalizations? It happens. Of course notice it didn't turn into a massive shit storm since the TL community back then had maybe 2000 members.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=36115
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On November 09 2012 18:17 thepuppyassassin wrote:
The worst thing about starcraft 2 is the clumping of units. It is the chief design flaw that causes extremely quick, difficult to follow, much too decisive battles, and it is only compounded by the fact that they keep incorporating units that restrict movement or cause splash damage. The speed in which the battles happen also make it difficult to showcase good micro and decisionmaking.
I agree with this as well, not only does it make the game play out badly but it also makes it look silly. When sc2 came out some people were pointing out that it looked toy like but most couldn't point out why, i think part of it is because of the clumping, as if instead of looking like an army it all looks like a bunch of toys clumped up on a table.
This is an issue that the developers don't seem to care about and are almost stubborn in dismissing in, Browder said it was not possible to fix the clumping without harming the pathfinding, but some people have shown that it is possible by just tweaking some settings. It's one of the many examples that shows that the dev team so far has been a bit incompetent.
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On November 09 2012 18:37 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 18:17 thepuppyassassin wrote:
The worst thing about starcraft 2 is the clumping of units. It is the chief design flaw that causes extremely quick, difficult to follow, much too decisive battles, and it is only compounded by the fact that they keep incorporating units that restrict movement or cause splash damage. The speed in which the battles happen also make it difficult to showcase good micro and decisionmaking.
SC2 should have simply been a graphical update of brood war with a new single player campaign. It would have sold just as many copies. Completely agree. Blizzard listen to this!!!!
People said this before SC2 had even been released.
The thing that confuses me is, why aren't more people playing those SC2:BW UMSes or whatever? I've seen them discussed and showcased a couple of times but that was what, a year ago at least? Did the creators just lose interest and leave them incomplete or did everyone fail to notice them?
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The clumping thing is just beating a dead horse at this point. Yes it does happen, but to avoid it requires incredible skill and the high end players are getting to that point now, and to me it makes the game better to watch - it only gets better from here. One big deciding battle that ends in seconds will be more and more left to the realm of lesser players. The last MLG Dallas and the recent GSL ro32 showed some incredible unit control without clumping, on one of Leenock's games there was action with mostly small groups of units and mutas the entire game.
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On November 10 2012 02:14 Treemonkeys wrote:
The clumping thing is just beating a dead horse at this point. Yes it does happen, but to avoid it requires incredible skill and the high end players are getting to that point now, and to me it makes the game better to watch - it only gets better from here. One big deciding battle that ends in seconds will be more and more left to the realm of lesser players. The last MLG Dallas and the recent GSL ro32 showed some incredible unit control without clumping, on one of Leenock's games there was action with mostly small groups of units and mutas the entire game.
But as said in the OP, what lesser players experience is very relevant to getting an actual audience for these guys.
If your own battles are so fast and boring that you stop playing, you probably start caring about the great micro displayed by others less as well.
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On November 10 2012 02:27 JohannesH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 02:14 Treemonkeys wrote:
The clumping thing is just beating a dead horse at this point. Yes it does happen, but to avoid it requires incredible skill and the high end players are getting to that point now, and to me it makes the game better to watch - it only gets better from here. One big deciding battle that ends in seconds will be more and more left to the realm of lesser players. The last MLG Dallas and the recent GSL ro32 showed some incredible unit control without clumping, on one of Leenock's games there was action with mostly small groups of units and mutas the entire game. But as said in the OP, what lesser players experience is very relevant to getting an actual audience for these guys. If your own battles are so fast and boring that you stop playing, you probably start caring about the great micro displayed by others less as well.
No if it was easy to keep units out then it wouldn't be as impressive. Army control is the biggest skill window SC2 has right now, it should stay IMO. I agree the game should be more "casual" friendly, but not in that way.
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On November 10 2012 02:27 JohannesH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 02:14 Treemonkeys wrote:
The clumping thing is just beating a dead horse at this point. Yes it does happen, but to avoid it requires incredible skill and the high end players are getting to that point now, and to me it makes the game better to watch - it only gets better from here. One big deciding battle that ends in seconds will be more and more left to the realm of lesser players. The last MLG Dallas and the recent GSL ro32 showed some incredible unit control without clumping, on one of Leenock's games there was action with mostly small groups of units and mutas the entire game. But as said in the OP, what lesser players experience is very relevant to getting an actual audience for these guys. If your own battles are so fast and boring that you stop playing, you probably start caring about the great micro displayed by others less as well.
Random assumption. You do realize there are a lot of people out there that don't play this game any more whatsoever, but still enjoy watching pros play right? Me for instance. I won't speak for anyone else, or try to make ignorant assumptions based purely on bullshit, but I also know I'm not the only one.
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On November 10 2012 02:27 JohannesH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 02:14 Treemonkeys wrote:
The clumping thing is just beating a dead horse at this point. Yes it does happen, but to avoid it requires incredible skill and the high end players are getting to that point now, and to me it makes the game better to watch - it only gets better from here. One big deciding battle that ends in seconds will be more and more left to the realm of lesser players. The last MLG Dallas and the recent GSL ro32 showed some incredible unit control without clumping, on one of Leenock's games there was action with mostly small groups of units and mutas the entire game. But as said in the OP, what lesser players experience is very relevant to getting an actual audience for these guys. If your own battles are so fast and boring that you stop playing, you probably start caring about the great micro displayed by others less as well.
Thats kinda why I stopped. I will probably start again as well. But it really is surprising how increadibly fast stuff dies, to not even start about the select all a-move across map.
This however. is something that Blizzard will not change. It would mean a total redesign aof the game and balance.
And I disagree with the original poster that sc2 has to be a purely physical update of BW, just different pathing.
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I fully agree. The Blitz has to invested too much to change the engine itself, so we'll just have to see what the come up with.
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I think it's just this style of game is no longer mass appealing after 11 years. How many resource gathering RTS have been made since BW? Not many compared to other genras. No fixing that. Public by in large tossed away this game play style for MMOs, FPSs and other stuff. Better chat channels aint gonna change that.
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Somehow i hoped this thread will disappear ... just like destiny did 
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On December 01 2012 07:19 tdt wrote:
I think it's just this style of game is no longer mass appealing after 11 years. How many resource gathering RTS have been made since BW? Not many compared to other genras. No fixing that. Public by in large tossed away this game play style for MMOs, FPSs and other stuff. Better chat channels aint gonna change that.
RTS really is a tight niche nowadays. It's hard for something difficult or challenging to have a mass appeal, in much the same way as certain movies end up with cult following while not being cinematic blockbusters. Chess, for example, is easy enough to understand and learn the basics of, but difficult to play at a truly high level - for intelligence reasons. This game has even more room for human error - bad wrists, bad reactions, bad brain, bad eyes, bad choices, bad scouting, bad understanding... badness in any way can discourage someone after enough time. This generation is also bred to be more sensitive, which doesn't help, what with all the bad manner.
EDIT: Criticism of the game engine or design philosophy are afterthoughts, when the issue at hand is the long-term market appeal of this "type" of game.
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I do not mean to offend anyone by saying this statement, but the irony is that I will.
I tried LOL the other day and it bored me really quickly. I just do not see myself moving 1 unit for 10 hours straight.
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horrible bump lol...this thread wasnt doing anyone any good in the first place, there's no need to bump.
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On December 10 2012 04:09 number01 wrote:
I do not mean to offend anyone by saying this statement, but the irony is that I will.
I tried LOL the other day and it bored me really quickly. I just do not see myself moving 1 unit for 10 hours straight.
I am offended.
That is not irony.
There is no game that you play for 10 hours straight.
Also its LoL not LOL
+ Show Spoiler +fine im not actually offended
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On December 10 2012 04:14 Sea_Food wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 04:09 number01 wrote:
I do not mean to offend anyone by saying this statement, but the irony is that I will.
I tried LOL the other day and it bored me really quickly. I just do not see myself moving 1 unit for 10 hours straight. I am offended. That is not irony. There is no game that you play for 10 hours straight. Also its LoL not LOL + Show Spoiler +fine im not actually offended
I find things like this interesting. Why would people get offended. It's someone's opinion. Personally, I play LoL and SC2 50-50 and I thoroughly enjoy both of them. if some random person came up to me in the street and said "League of Legends is the worst game ever, I will never play it, It's a complete waste of time... yadayadayada". I would say cool, and go home and play League of Legends, because I enjoy it, and majority of people overlook that fact.
Enjoy what you like. Nobody has any right to make you feel otherwise.
and the other way round:
Let people like what they like. You have no right to make them feel otherwise.
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I am offended.
That is not irony.
There is no game that you play for 10 hours straight.
Also its LoL not LOL
You are wrong is so many ways but for the sake of not fighting over the internet i will leave it at that.
Why would people get offended. It's someone's opinion.
i agree.
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EPT
