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Destiny on where he thinks SC2 is heading. - Page 104

Forum Index > SC2 General
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FreedomMurder
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada200 Posts
December 09 2012 19:55 GMT
#2061
On November 09 2012 18:42 udgnim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 18:10 MikeMM wrote:
On November 09 2012 17:38 Adreme wrote:
On November 09 2012 17:19 Brett wrote:
On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:
On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:
On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.

In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.

So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.

And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.

In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.


Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant.




I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year.
In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later.
My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW.
Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players?
In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win.
And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL.

Players slumping after big wins is hardly unique to SC2. It happened in BW, and it happens in many sports the world over.

Moreover, the fact that there haven't been significant periods of sustained dominance by a number of players (though I'd argue MVP's consistency is an indicator to the contrary) in the 2 years that SC2 has been around is not necessarily indicative of it depending too much 'on random' as you put it.


I wouldnt say its randomness in sc2 since we have basically had these short spurts since the 3 kings era of Nestea MVP and MC where a player will emerge and look unbeatable for a month or 2 he will win basically everything he enters and then all of a sudden he falls off and the next player does that.


What is wrong with sc2 on you opinion if not randomness?
It was alredy mentioned in this thread that «Grubby has stated that he feels that he doesnt have the control over his wins like he had in wc3, where he felt that if he was a little better than his opponent he would win 90% of the games against that player.»
Grubby thinks its randomness.



can't take Grubby's SC2 randomness opinion at face value when he was one of the best WC3 players while he's some tiers below the best SC2 Protoss players

WC3 game mechanics of micro heavy high HP army & hero control is also vastly different from SC2 game mechanics

my opinion on players that get hot for 1-2 months then start falling off is that they figure something out that allows them to get ahead of the curve for that time then everybody starts catching up and figuring it out

SC2 player skill ceiling is still being advanced and still being better figured out. some players can keep up and are the trend setters. other players lag behind needing others to show them what to do. some players start to fall off (Nestea) and others fall off completely (example being Huk currently experiencing what Jinro went through).

things like balance patches also constantly shape the game and how the pros play although Blizzard hasn't released one in a while in an apparent attempt to let the game stabilize, but I do think that is causing the game to stagnate with PvP being boring as hell and Infestor heavy Zerg play being very non-exciting.




If we can't take Grubby's opinion at face value why should anyone respect your opinion? Grubby is obviously much more skilled than you...
(>$___$)> https://soundcloud.com/5m00th-j4zz <(-__$<)
Garmer
Profile Joined October 2010
1286 Posts
December 09 2012 20:06 GMT
#2062
On October 17 2012 14:37 Xxio wrote:
Blizzard should have given Brood War a facelift instead of making StarCraft 2.

absolutely this.
the fan say:you can't reinvent the wheel and Pardo say: we are not reinventing the wheel, we are re imagining it
guess what Pardo, you are re-imagined it, in the wrong way

User was warned for this post
Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-09 20:12:00
December 09 2012 20:11 GMT
#2063
On December 10 2012 05:06 Garmer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2012 14:37 Xxio wrote:
Blizzard should have given Brood War a facelift instead of making StarCraft 2.

absolutely this.
the fan say:you can't reinvent the wheel and Pardo say: we are not reinventing the wheel, we are re imagining it
guess what Pardo, you are re-imagined it, in the wrong way


No one would play it. The actual 1v1 in SC2 is 100x more user friendly than BW.
Fragile51
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands15767 Posts
December 09 2012 20:12 GMT
#2064
On December 10 2012 05:11 Zorkmid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2012 05:06 Garmer wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:37 Xxio wrote:
Blizzard should have given Brood War a facelift instead of making StarCraft 2.

absolutely this.
the fan say:you can't reinvent the wheel and Pardo say: we are not reinventing the wheel, we are re imagining it
guess what Pardo, you are re-imagined it, in the wrong way


No one would play it.


And no one would buy it either. Just think about it, who's going to buy reskinned BW? Might as well just buy BW.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 09 2012 20:21 GMT
#2065
How is this thread back? I thought we were free of the dumbness created by Destiny losing stream viewers and making less money.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
leo23
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3075 Posts
December 09 2012 20:21 GMT
#2066
On December 10 2012 05:12 Fragile51 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2012 05:11 Zorkmid wrote:
On December 10 2012 05:06 Garmer wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:37 Xxio wrote:
Blizzard should have given Brood War a facelift instead of making StarCraft 2.

absolutely this.
the fan say:you can't reinvent the wheel and Pardo say: we are not reinventing the wheel, we are re imagining it
guess what Pardo, you are re-imagined it, in the wrong way


No one would play it.


And no one would buy it either. Just think about it, who's going to buy reskinned BW? Might as well just buy BW.



yeah this is true
banelings
Lunareste
Profile Joined July 2011
United States3596 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-09 20:27:11
December 09 2012 20:22 GMT
#2067
On December 10 2012 04:36 LOLItsRyann wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2012 04:14 Sea_Food wrote:
On December 10 2012 04:09 number01 wrote:
I do not mean to offend anyone by saying this statement, but the irony is that I will.
I tried LOL the other day and it bored me really quickly. I just do not see myself moving 1 unit for 10 hours straight.


I am offended.
That is not irony.
There is no game that you play for 10 hours straight.
Also its LoL not LOL

+ Show Spoiler +
fine im not actually offended


I find things like this interesting. Why would people get offended. It's someone's opinion. Personally, I play LoL and SC2 50-50 and I thoroughly enjoy both of them. if some random person came up to me in the street and said "League of Legends is the worst game ever, I will never play it, It's a complete waste of time... yadayadayada". I would say cool, and go home and play League of Legends, because I enjoy it, and majority of people overlook that fact.

Enjoy what you like. Nobody has any right to make you feel otherwise.

and the other way round:

Let people like what they like. You have no right to make them feel otherwise.


This is something I don't understand about the community either; it's like everyone believes that Starcraft is a valid eSport or the best game only if it's the most popular one. When I think about the "situation" (lol) with League, and the fact that they have many more players and viewers than Starcraft does currently, I think about it like sports. Maybe European soccer is more popular than the NFL or the NBA, but that doesn't make those leagues any less valid, exciting or legitimate.

Starcraft is a much more fun game to play and watch for me compared to League for a few reasons: it allows for complex overarching strategies, better balanced play (League of Bruisers) and allows for dynamic strategies every game depending on a player's style and the maps used. In my opinion, the less fun aspects of watching Starcraft are also significantly worse in League: there's more downtime between major engagements, passivity is guaranteed during 90% of the match because multiple members of each team MUST farm creeps, and the teamfights are even worse clusterfucks than unit clumping.

That isn't to say that I don't enjoy playing or watching League, but there's a reason that I can come home from work and watch Starcraft for 4-6 hours every night, while I can barely stomach watching an hour of League of Legends. I definitely don't ever get that feeling of "wow I could never do that!" when I watch an AD carry farm 300 minions and then right click during team fights. I'm happy that so many people enjoy League because it's a good game and it's definitely helping eSports, but Starcraft is the right game for me because of its complexity and skill ceiling.
KT FlaSh FOREVER
Garmer
Profile Joined October 2010
1286 Posts
December 09 2012 20:24 GMT
#2068
On December 10 2012 05:12 Fragile51 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2012 05:11 Zorkmid wrote:
On December 10 2012 05:06 Garmer wrote:
On October 17 2012 14:37 Xxio wrote:
Blizzard should have given Brood War a facelift instead of making StarCraft 2.

absolutely this.
the fan say:you can't reinvent the wheel and Pardo say: we are not reinventing the wheel, we are re imagining it
guess what Pardo, you are re-imagined it, in the wrong way


No one would play it.


And no one would buy it either. Just think about it, who's going to buy reskinned BW? Might as well just buy BW.

of course now it's too late, the remake should have appeared instead of sc2...
sabas123
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands3122 Posts
December 09 2012 20:25 GMT
#2069
On November 10 2012 01:57 lolmlg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2012 18:37 MikeMM wrote:
On November 09 2012 18:17 thepuppyassassin wrote:
The worst thing about starcraft 2 is the clumping of units. It is the chief design flaw that causes extremely quick, difficult to follow, much too decisive battles, and it is only compounded by the fact that they keep incorporating units that restrict movement or cause splash damage. The speed in which the battles happen also make it difficult to showcase good micro and decisionmaking.

SC2 should have simply been a graphical update of brood war with a new single player campaign. It would have sold just as many copies.


Completely agree.
Blizzard listen to this!!!!

People said this before SC2 had even been released.

The thing that confuses me is, why aren't more people playing those SC2:BW UMSes or whatever? I've seen them discussed and showcased a couple of times but that was what, a year ago at least? Did the creators just lose interest and leave them incomplete or did everyone fail to notice them?

becouse the ai,resolution is the same as in sc2, which still makes a huge impact on the game,

also there is no competitive structure around it like iccup.
The harder it becomes, the more you should focus on the basics.
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
December 09 2012 20:34 GMT
#2070
On December 10 2012 05:21 Plansix wrote:
How is this thread back? I thought we were free of the dumbness created by Destiny losing stream viewers and making less money.
Now it's more random critical comments against sc2 instead of actually reacting to what destiny said -_-'
WoodLeagueAllStar
Profile Joined August 2012
United States806 Posts
December 09 2012 20:36 GMT
#2071
Dude people bought reskinned games before, like new Pac-Man, Tomb Raider, people would buy reskinned FFVII, reskinned BW with new units could have sold huge, it wouldn't have effected the story part either.
In 1984, I was hospitalized for approaching perfection. --Random Rules
Xiphias
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Norway2223 Posts
December 09 2012 20:41 GMT
#2072
How about we all just leave sc2 and play starbow instead. It is the game they should have made.

Here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=304955

Still in beta though.....
aka KanBan85. Working on Starbow.
Ryusei-R1
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States2106 Posts
December 09 2012 20:44 GMT
#2073
The resurgence of SPL has renewed my faith in SC2, even if for a short period.
Jaedong plz
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
December 09 2012 20:51 GMT
#2074
On December 10 2012 05:21 Plansix wrote:
How is this thread back? I thought we were free of the dumbness created by Destiny losing stream viewers and making less money.

This. The thread really should be closed. No good ever came or ever will come out of this thread. RIP.
Get off my lawn, young punks
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
December 09 2012 20:54 GMT
#2075
Who necroed this shit
¯\_(シ)_/¯
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
December 09 2012 20:55 GMT
#2076
On December 10 2012 05:44 Ryusei-R1 wrote:
The resurgence of SPL has renewed my faith in SC2, even if for a short period.

Fantasy PL also adds a lot to the experience. Boring games can be made interesting when one is emotionally invested into the outcome, even for the most arbitrary of reasons like Liquibet or FPL.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9377 Posts
December 09 2012 20:58 GMT
#2077
On December 10 2012 05:06 Garmer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2012 14:37 Xxio wrote:
Blizzard should have given Brood War a facelift instead of making StarCraft 2.

absolutely this.
the fan say:you can't reinvent the wheel and Pardo say: we are not reinventing the wheel, we are re imagining it
guess what Pardo, you are re-imagined it, in the wrong way


lol this isn't the problem. Sc2 should be a new game. The problem was that Blizzard performed no research on why sc2's predessor actually became a esports succes. Those DB and company didn't really understand proper unit design. If Sc2 was designed by competent developers the game could have been even better than starcraft bw.
deathmirage
Profile Joined November 2012
United States9 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-09 21:41:47
December 09 2012 21:39 GMT
#2078
I believe from the very beginning of the OP there is a fatal error or extreme sarcasm. In most things in life when you reach an unbelievable high/peak there is only one place to go...down, not up.

Part of the problem with the expectation that SC2 would explode in popularity is that BW was mostly popular in the East (Korea for example). Sure there have always been other players around the around, but never a really strong and significant following from North American, Europe, or western Asia. Why would there be an expectation that these other regions of the world would explode in their desire for SC just because Blizzard released a new game? Doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense that all the Koreans are going to just hop over to SC2 without any resistance.

HOTS is still in Beta and it is too early to tell what will become of it. Although personally the only thing I look forward to in HOTS is the campaign.

Now the part on advertisements and sponsors is completely missing the core problem. In my opinion any company who sponsors a SC2 tournament or SC2 event is fighting a losing battle. They are wasting money. Think about it. What is the average age of the viewers? What is their average income levels? Let's face it people. A lot of the viewers are young people with little to no extra money. High school students. College students. They don't normally have enough extra dough laying around to buy $120 gaming glasses, $200+ headsets, $60 gaming mice, $100 gaming keyboards, or any other of the normally advertised things. This is retarded as these same companies going into a High School with ads with high hopes of good conversion rates. I am actually a marketer and engineer by profession. What these companies are doing is a waste of their time and money. Having more bad customers doesn't solve the problem (The only good customer are the ones that continue to buy your stuff). Take me as a sample. I actually do have enough money to buy the things advertised, yet I don't. In fact most times I don't even see their ads, because they are either blocked or outright ignored as I do something else while they play. And even when I do see the advertisements they don't make me want to buy anything. Men as a general population don't normally buy things on impulse. Advertisements are historically more effective for women and children. Most men do some level of personal research before they buy some new toy. Men, not boys. And yes there are a lot of young boy viewers. Only problem is they don't have any money to spend. They have to beg their parents to waste $100's on gaming gear. Chances are most parents are going to think it is stupid and not buy these things. This one is a losing battle, and yes I agree. Eventually the funding will dry up when these companies figure out how retarded they are behaving.

About the Blizzard issues. Yes there are some serious problems with SC2. The absence of LAN is a huge one. The custom game system is really better than BW now. It gives you the most popular options, the most played, the entire list of options, and even the currently hosted games. What did BW give you? Only the currently hosted. Don't try to make the custom gaming scene out to be Blizzard's fault. If anything the problem is in the community. With unrealistic expectations for new maps and lazy/boring people that play the same top maps over and over again. The only reason the custom map scene seemed more successful in BW is because there was nothing to tell you what was popular. So people would be willing to try just about anything. And most maps were honestly poorly made back then, but it didn't seem to matter because people still had fun. The mass spawn maps were all the same, but played very often. There are BGH maps in SC2. They are never played and mostly poorly made. If people really wanted to play them, they could make their own version or play the best one available. Most custom map players however DON'T want to play melee games. Even modified melee games. Because they suck at it. They want to escape and play something easy like Nexus wars, Desert Strike, or Income wars. Custom maps for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 2v2v2v2 or whatever were popular in BW because that was how people could play without having to worry about ladder anxiety. Play just for fun, casually. That is still available in SC2, but it is labeled in such a way that most people probably don't even realize it. But you can make custom 1v1 games with ladder maps that aren't ranked and people do join. I played a few diamond level players doing that for practice. Only issue is you have no idea what skill level you will face.

Bottom line, I agree SC2 will never be as popular as BW. That expectation is foolish, even from the start. I agree SC2 funding will dry up, because these companies are advertising to the wrong crowd. I agree that Blizzard has some issues they need to resolve, namely LAN support for SC2. Otherwise I don't really see how SC2 could be made any better to match or exceed BW.
RaYu
Profile Joined November 2012
21 Posts
December 09 2012 21:47 GMT
#2079
but at what cost? ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

User was warned for this post
Blargh
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2102 Posts
December 09 2012 21:48 GMT
#2080
On December 10 2012 06:39 deathmirage wrote:
I believe from the very beginning of the OP there is a fatal error or extreme sarcasm. In most things in life when you reach an unbelievable high/peak there is only one place to go...down, not up.

Part of the problem with the expectation that SC2 would explode in popularity is that BW was mostly popular in the East (Korea for example). Sure there have always been other players around the around, but never a really strong and significant following from North American, Europe, or western Asia. Why would there be an expectation that these other regions of the world would explode in their desire for SC just because Blizzard released a new game? Doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense that all the Koreans are going to just hop over to SC2 without any resistance.

HOTS is still in Beta and it is too early to tell what will become of it. Although personally the only thing I look forward to in HOTS is the campaign.

Now the part on advertisements and sponsors is completely missing the core problem. In my opinion any company who sponsors a SC2 tournament or SC2 event is fighting a losing battle. They are wasting money. Think about it. What is the average age of the viewers? What is their average income levels? Let's face it people. A lot of the viewers are young people with little to no extra money. High school students. College students. They don't normally have enough extra dough laying around to buy $120 gaming glasses, $200+ headsets, $60 gaming mice, $100 gaming keyboards, or any other of the normally advertised things. This is retarded as these same companies going into a High School with ads with high hopes of good conversion rates. I am actually a marketer and engineer by profession. What these companies are doing is a waste of their time and money. Having more bad customers doesn't solve the problem (The only good customer are the ones that continue to buy your stuff). Take me as a sample. I actually do have enough money to buy the things advertised, yet I don't. In fact most times I don't even see their ads, because they are either blocked or outright ignored as I do something else while they play. And even when I do see the advertisements they don't make me want to buy anything. Men as a general population don't normally buy things on impulse. Advertisements are historically more effective for women and children. Most men do some level of personal research before they buy some new toy. Men, not boys. And yes there are a lot of young boy viewers. Only problem is they don't have any money to spend. They have to beg their parents to waste $100's on gaming gear. Chances are most parents are going to think it is stupid and not buy these things. This one is a losing battle, and yes I agree. Eventually the funding will dry up when these companies figure out how retarded they are behaving.

About the Blizzard issues. Yes there are some serious problems with SC2. The absence of LAN is a huge one. The custom game system is really better than BW now. It gives you the most popular options, the most played, the entire list of options, and even the currently hosted games. What did BW give you? Only the currently hosted. Don't try to make the custom gaming scene out to be Blizzard's fault. If anything the problem is in the community. With unrealistic expectations for new maps and lazy/boring people that play the same top maps over and over again. The only reason the custom map scene seemed more successful in BW is because there was nothing to tell you what was popular. So people would be willing to try just about anything. And most maps were honestly poorly made back then, but it didn't seem to matter because people still had fun. The mass spawn maps were all the same, but played very often. There are BGH maps in SC2. They are never played and mostly poorly made. If people really wanted to play them, they could make their own version or play the best one available. Most custom map players however DON'T want to play melee games. Even modified melee games. Because they suck at it. They want to escape and play something easy like Nexus wars, Desert Strike, or Income wars. Custom maps for 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, 2v2v2v2 or whatever were popular in BW because that was how people could play without having to worry about ladder anxiety. Play just for fun, casually. That is still available in SC2, but it is labeled in such a way that most people probably don't even realize it. But you can make custom 1v1 games with ladder maps that aren't ranked and people do join. I played a few diamond level players doing that for practice. Only issue is you have no idea what skill level you will face.

Bottom line, I agree SC2 will never be as popular as BW. That expectation is foolish, even from the start. I agree SC2 funding will dry up, because these companies are advertising to the wrong crowd. I agree that Blizzard has some issues they need to resolve, namely LAN support for SC2. Otherwise I don't really see how SC2 could be made any better to match or exceed BW.


People stopped discussing that by the way. The only people looking at this thread are ones wondering why it's still being posted in, people who are discussing completely unrelated things, and people who don't realize this thread is old (relatively) with no one actually discussing it (you, in this case)...

So I'm afraid you may have just lost 15 minutes of your life writing that, with very few to ever read it . No offense, of course. Anyway, that's close to the position many people have on the whole dealio. I imagine HotS will smooth things out and there will be less herpderp.

WTB: closed thread.
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