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It's actually really, really amusing that some of you are whining that LoL isn't hard enough or doesn't require enough mouseclicks for your taste. Too casual, right? Well that's exactly what SC2 is compared to Brood War.
Now that we have that out of the way, let me state something. I don't watch LoL. I watch SC2 all the time. But I find them both horribly boring as a spectator. I feel invested in watching SC2 now, so I keep watching it, and enjoy seeing my favourite players succeed. But nothing interesting ever happens in a game of SC2. All you ever see is situations where the casters say "I don't think he can do it!" followed by" oh my god he did it!" which says more about their credibility (or desire to make the game sound more exciting than it is) than the game itself.
Frankly I think most of those situations occur because of how poor SC2 is for spectators. The first few matches of professional SC2 I watched, I had no idea what was going on. Not because I didn't know what the units were for or what have you, but because every fight was a ball of units attacking another ball of units against a dark background and it was impossible to tell how many units there were. That situation has barely changed. I'm more comfortable watching the game now, but I can see how a newcomer would ultimately be confused and unimpressed.
Soccer is the biggest sport in the world because all you need to play it is a ball and everyone can understand what is happening. LoL is a bigger e-sport than SC2 because all you need to play it is a free client and it will run on an 8 year old computer without any problems.
Oh, and soccer never changes. Only the players do. After a few years BW had an advantage: it was what it was. Blizzard made a real effort to kill BW and replace it with an incomplete, untested game. And we're enjoying the fruits of that labour now: resentment, disappointment, division of the player base, doubt.
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On November 08 2012 22:03 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 22:01 Destro wrote:On November 08 2012 21:49 Fragile51 wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
"sc2 is too competitive and that's why its broken" Get over yourself already, lol yea this pretty much. Its too young of a game to have bonjwas just yet. It says a lot about the game that someone like flash can be a top runner in major tournaments and only been playing the game seriously for a few months. The undertone that really bothers me, is that this zerg domination is the result of the meta game not evolving. In brood war, there were long periods where different races dominated and all within the same patch version. The points are valid, but the fervor and negativity are just silly. Let starcraft grow its wings... if any patches come before hots i hope they are VERY minor tweaks. In this community, the loudest mouthed idiot seems to get the attention.. rather then reason and logic. This all coming from a player who has never even been close to competing at a high level. The biggest cause of the metagame stagnating is because mappools haven't changed all that much over the last year. Fix that first and suddenly you'll see the metagame kicking into overdrivea again.
I think it has more to do with the amount of practice time relative to competition time. Changes happen, but so slowly that they don't look like changes. I think there is still plenty of room for new strategy development and meta game growth, but if you are a progamer, what are you going to spend your highly limited practice time on, tweaking a proven good framework of a build or building new strategy from the ground up?
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Agreed to the OP.
It was clear from the outer point of view when I saw just Dendi himself gather like 10K viewers when the sum of all the SC2 streams' viewers are below it. Dendi was not streaming a tourney game at all.
SC2 geeks are just blind the fact that they couldn't see the ship is sinking. Everyday the player and viewer databases are diminishing and price pools and tourneys are stagnant. It is not just my opinion, you can found it with numbers.
SC2 is not for casual hordes but for some dedicated hardcore players. HOTS will not change that.
It is like chess in every aspect. Blizz is like trying to make chess attractive for casuals which won't happen from the beginning.
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United States702 Posts
On November 08 2012 22:48 Laserist wrote:
Agreed to the OP.
It was clear from the outer point of view when I saw just Dendi himself gather like 10K viewers when the sum of all the SC2 streams' viewers are below it. Dendi was not streaming a tourney game at all.
SC2 geeks are just blind the fact that they couldn't see the ship is sinking. Everyday the player and viewer databases are diminishing and price pools and tourneys are stagnant. It is not just my opinion, you can found it with numbers.
SC2 is not for casual hordes but for some dedicated hardcore players. HOTS will not change that.
It is like chess in every aspect. Blizz is like trying to make chess attractive for casuals which won't happen from the beginning.
Why was MLG's prize pool for Dallas SC2 2.5x LoL's, even though LoL has had higher viewer counts at MLG since 2011?
There are tournaments nearly every weekend. Many people say there are too many.
Do people come to TL to try out their fictional writing skills? Go take a creative writing class or something.
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United States702 Posts
On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant.
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On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread?
Not to mention that he cherry-picks only the people that appeared in the finals. In the hardest tournament in the world, the GSL, the top 8,16, and 32 are consistently the same people with a few new fresh faces every season, but not that many. Nestea made 10 straight GSL appearances. Supernova had 9 straight. Squirtle, parting, taeja, MC, curious, leenock, DRG, while they are not in every season, they are standard code S people that you expect to see in 4 out of 5 of the code S tournaments.
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On November 09 2012 01:18 DrowSwordsman wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 08 2012 22:48 Laserist wrote:
Agreed to the OP.
It was clear from the outer point of view when I saw just Dendi himself gather like 10K viewers when the sum of all the SC2 streams' viewers are below it. Dendi was not streaming a tourney game at all.
SC2 geeks are just blind the fact that they couldn't see the ship is sinking. Everyday the player and viewer databases are diminishing and price pools and tourneys are stagnant. It is not just my opinion, you can found it with numbers.
SC2 is not for casual hordes but for some dedicated hardcore players. HOTS will not change that.
It is like chess in every aspect. Blizz is like trying to make chess attractive for casuals which won't happen from the beginning. Why was MLG's prize pool for Dallas SC2 2.5x LoL's, even though LoL has had higher viewer counts at MLG since 2011? There are tournaments nearly every weekend. Many people say there are too many. Do people come to TL to try out their fictional writing skills? Go take a creative writing class or something.
Why near all other tourney prices are stagnant? MLG just spare too much money and effort for SC2 for unknown reasons. Maybe because SC2 viewers more willing to pay money, or more older to earn their own money(lol is free you know?).
Valve give 1M dollar price for a game even in half-open beta for 2 years. Give support to watching tourney games by implementing an actual in-game TV, selling things to support teams, a client with fully utilized to socialize so on.
SC2 has tourneys for every weekend? So as Dota in Beta state. You can watch them free by streams or pay a few bucks (not 20) to watch at home HD from client with shitty internet? The list goes on.
I don't care if you rude to me or deny my opinions. People come to TL for sharing opinions, but I wonder if some of them come here to be like you?
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United States702 Posts
On November 09 2012 01:40 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:18 DrowSwordsman wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 08 2012 22:48 Laserist wrote:
Agreed to the OP.
It was clear from the outer point of view when I saw just Dendi himself gather like 10K viewers when the sum of all the SC2 streams' viewers are below it. Dendi was not streaming a tourney game at all.
SC2 geeks are just blind the fact that they couldn't see the ship is sinking. Everyday the player and viewer databases are diminishing and price pools and tourneys are stagnant. It is not just my opinion, you can found it with numbers.
SC2 is not for casual hordes but for some dedicated hardcore players. HOTS will not change that.
It is like chess in every aspect. Blizz is like trying to make chess attractive for casuals which won't happen from the beginning. Why was MLG's prize pool for Dallas SC2 2.5x LoL's, even though LoL has had higher viewer counts at MLG since 2011? There are tournaments nearly every weekend. Many people say there are too many. Do people come to TL to try out their fictional writing skills? Go take a creative writing class or something. Why near all other tourney prices are stagnant? MLG just spare too much money and effort for SC2 for unknown reasons. Maybe because SC2 viewers more willing to pay money, or more older to earn their own money(lol is free you know?). Valve give 1M dollar price for a game even in half-open beta for 2 years. Give support to watching tourney games by implementing an actual in-game TV, selling things to support teams, a client with fully utilized to socialize so on. SC2 has tourneys for every weekend? So as Dota in Beta state. You can watch them free by streams or pay a few bucks (not 20) to watch at home HD from client with shitty internet? The list goes on. I don't care if you rude to me or deny my opinions. People come to TL for sharing opinions, but I wonder if some of them come here to be like you?
Dude you made up your facts, and then when I showed you a few counter stats...you come up with "MLG has too much spare money and they put effort into SC2 for unknown reasons", which is one of the least reasonable responses you could've possibly made. Did you even think about it for a second before refuting it because of your internal bias? Here, I'll even give you a counter argument: "budgets are set per year, wait and see what the 2013 prize pools are like". And I'd say "yeah that's a really good point, though LoL had more viewers than SC2 towards the last half of 2011 as well". I can argue against myself better than you can. You can have your opinions but when they're based on "facts" you make up out of thin air, they don't hold much weight.
It's great DOTA has tournaments every weekend. It's great LoL's doing well. I have friends who play LoL competitively. I don't want them to not do well. SC2 is doing okay too. 102k watching MLG showed that. It could do better. It's not as strong as it was in May 2011, I'm not denying that. A lot of that is on Blizzard like this post says but it's really melodramatic for no reason other than for the sake of it. If "be like you" means, not let people make up stats in order to be a dramatic child, then yeah there are a lot of people here like me. The mods used to be.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant.
I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year.
In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later.
My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW.
Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players?
In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win.
And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL.
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On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL.
Try "because the meta game of sc2 is constantly evolving and not stagnant and figured out like BW after 10 years" and "because he is suffering from an extremely debilitating injury where his performance from day to day can be wildly different"
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 09 2012 16:01 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL. Try "because the meta game of sc2 is constantly evolving and not stagnant and figured out like BW after 10 years" and "because he is suffering from an extremely debilitating injury where his performance from day to day can be wildly different"
So if you are saying that SC2 needs 8 more years to reach the same level of BW as eSport and the same popularity than I’m completely agree with you.
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On November 09 2012 16:01 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL. Try "because the meta game of sc2 is constantly evolving and not stagnant and figured out like BW after 10 years" and "because he is suffering from an extremely debilitating injury where his performance from day to day can be wildly different"
BW doesn't need me to defend it but please spewing nonsense. You dirty everyone elses forum space.
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On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL.
Players slumping after big wins is hardly unique to SC2. It happened in BW, and it happens in many sports the world over.
Moreover, the fact that there haven't been significant periods of sustained dominance by a number of players (though I'd argue MVP's consistency is an indicator to the contrary) in the 2 years that SC2 has been around is not necessarily indicative of it depending too much 'on random' as you put it.
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On November 09 2012 17:19 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL. Players slumping after big wins is hardly unique to SC2. It happened in BW, and it happens in many sports the world over. Moreover, the fact that there haven't been significant periods of sustained dominance by a number of players (though I'd argue MVP's consistency is an indicator to the contrary) in the 2 years that SC2 has been around is not necessarily indicative of it depending too much 'on random' as you put it.
I wouldnt say its randomness in sc2 since we have basically had these short spurts since the 3 kings era of Nestea MVP and MC where a player will emerge and look unbeatable for a month or 2 he will win basically everything he enters and then all of a sudden he falls off and the next player does that.
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On November 09 2012 01:18 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 22:48 Laserist wrote:
Agreed to the OP.
It was clear from the outer point of view when I saw just Dendi himself gather like 10K viewers when the sum of all the SC2 streams' viewers are below it. Dendi was not streaming a tourney game at all.
SC2 geeks are just blind the fact that they couldn't see the ship is sinking. Everyday the player and viewer databases are diminishing and price pools and tourneys are stagnant. It is not just my opinion, you can found it with numbers.
SC2 is not for casual hordes but for some dedicated hardcore players. HOTS will not change that.
It is like chess in every aspect. Blizz is like trying to make chess attractive for casuals which won't happen from the beginning. Why was MLG's prize pool for Dallas SC2 2.5x LoL's, even though LoL has had higher viewer counts at MLG since 2011? There are tournaments nearly every weekend. Many people say there are too many. Do people come to TL to try out their fictional writing skills? Go take a creative writing class or something.
Lag effect. LOL will definitely outdo Sc2 in the future in terms of prize pool.
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On November 09 2012 16:01 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL. Try "because the meta game of sc2 is constantly evolving and not stagnant and figured out like BW after 10 years" and "because he is suffering from an extremely debilitating injury where his performance from day to day can be wildly different"
sc2 hasn't evolved in over a year. Every single game is the same. You can't even use different compositions because they don't work. At least in BW you could do something different in tvp every game. In sc2 you can't. Every matchup looks the exact same no matter who is playing it. It's boring as fuck to watch, it's boring as fuck to play. I used to hate on dota/LoL so hard and say sc2 was better. After playing dota2 I can easily say it's a lot more fun than sc2 and a lot more spectator friendly. I don't have to wait 30 minutes for a 20 second fight that decides the game. There's fighting all game.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 09 2012 17:38 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 17:19 Brett wrote:On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL. Players slumping after big wins is hardly unique to SC2. It happened in BW, and it happens in many sports the world over. Moreover, the fact that there haven't been significant periods of sustained dominance by a number of players (though I'd argue MVP's consistency is an indicator to the contrary) in the 2 years that SC2 has been around is not necessarily indicative of it depending too much 'on random' as you put it. I wouldnt say its randomness in sc2 since we have basically had these short spurts since the 3 kings era of Nestea MVP and MC where a player will emerge and look unbeatable for a month or 2 he will win basically everything he enters and then all of a sudden he falls off and the next player does that.
What is wrong with sc2 on you opinion if not randomness?
It was alredy mentioned in this thread that «Grubby has stated that he feels that he doesnt have the control over his wins like he had in wc3, where he felt that if he was a little better than his opponent he would win 90% of the games against that player.»
Grubby thinks its randomness.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On November 09 2012 17:59 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 16:01 Lunareste wrote:On November 09 2012 15:47 MikeMM wrote:On November 09 2012 01:27 DrowSwordsman wrote:On November 08 2012 21:05 MikeMM wrote:
SC2 as eSport is broken.
Let’s see at finalists of last five CodeS tournaments.
Life MVP
Seed MC
MVP Squirtle
DRG Genius
Jiakji Leenok
5 different winners and 5 different runner-ups. Only MVP managed to reach finals twice.
SC2 is a game where there is a lof of random and skills mean little.
In BW in last two finals we had Fantasy and Jangbi and Jangbi won twice.
So it’s easy to understand why sponsors don’t want to sponsor teams and players. Why give sponsorship to winner of GSL if it is almost certain that he will fail in next GSL tournament.
And for me as a viewer it’s not very interesting to watch tournaments knowing that not the best player will win but the most lucky one.
In BW we could see that Jangbi, Flash, Jaedong, Boxer, July won because they were best players.
Do you realize how many fewer tournaments BW had compared to SC2? The fact that MVP has reached the finals 6 times, and won 4 considering the GSL runs every two months is incredible. Life wins GSL and MLG in the span of a month. Is this the "make shit up that's obviously not" thread? It is rampant. I do realize that in BW there were fewer tornamens; OSL, MSL twice in a year. And so what? On the contrary that shows how more solid BW is since players can keep the same great level of play throught the whole year. In SC2 winners and finalists of GSL can’t reach finals only two months later. My point is that in SC2 too much depend on random than on player’s skill compared to BW. Can you deny that with facts or at least opinions of pro players? In BW only best players won tournaments in SC2 almost anyone from CodeS can win. And MVP supposedly best player in SC2 lost 0:2, 0:2 in last GSL. Try "because the meta game of sc2 is constantly evolving and not stagnant and figured out like BW after 10 years" and "because he is suffering from an extremely debilitating injury where his performance from day to day can be wildly different" sc2 hasn't evolved in over a year. Every single game is the same. You can't even use different compositions because they don't work. At least in BW you could do something different in tvp every game. In sc2 you can't. Every matchup looks the exact same no matter who is playing it. It's boring as fuck to watch, it's boring as fuck to play. I used to hate on dota/LoL so hard and say sc2 was better. After playing dota2 I can easily say it's a lot more fun than sc2 and a lot more spectator friendly. I don't have to wait 30 minutes for a 20 second fight that decides the game. There's fighting all game.
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User was warned for this post
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Are there any recent updates about the State of bnet 2.0? Besides the clan changes inc.
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One image that keeps popping up in my head is Dustin (Browder?) resolutely saying no changes to pathing will be made. The worst thing about starcraft 2 is the clumping of units. It is the chief design flaw that causes extremely quick, difficult to follow, much too decisive battles, and it is only compounded by the fact that they keep incorporating units that restrict movement or cause splash damage. The speed in which the battles happen also make it difficult to showcase good micro and decisionmaking.
SC2 should have simply been a graphical update of brood war with a new single player campaign. It would have sold just as many copies.
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EPT
